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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 7 Mar 1963

Vol. 200 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Motion by Minister for Finance (Resumed).

I was recalling the fact that this Government have been in office for six years and it is as well now that each side of the House, particularly this side of the House, feels itself free fully to deal with Government policy without any inhibitions in relation to Common Market negotiations or matters of that kind. It is well that the record of the Government in these past six years should be put into proper perspective.

In March, of 1957, when the Government took office, this country had just emerged from a serious economic blizzard which had affected not only Ireland but most other countries in Western Europe. Indeed, it is worth recalling that during the economic difficulties of 1956 when the terms of trade turned sharply against this country, when chilled Argentinian beef dumped on the British market affected our cattle prices, when all these difficulties of one kind or another began to emerge, there were whoops of delight from the camps of Fianna Fáil.

Reference was made at Question Time today to the price of milk. One can remember in 1956 the farmers from the Golden Vale mobilising themselves for a march upon Dublin and the men who were organising the pinpoints of that march were Fianna Fáil Deputies and Senators. How their hearts bled for the dairy farmers in 1956 and for the wheat farmers too. They were told up and down the country by Fianna Fáil exponents: "You should not have had the price of your wheat cut. Elect a Fianna Fáil Government and you will get back by way of an increase in the price of wheat 12/- a barrel."

That was some of the background which saw this Government enter office in March, 1957, but of course there were other things they talked about then. Take housing. How well we remember in this House, Deputy Briscoe conniving and conspiring all round this city to bedevil the housing situation in Dublin city.

To try to get money for Dublin Corporation.

The Minister for Justice was only a small boy in those days.

I was a member of Dublin Corporation.

Yes; he was a member of Dublin Corporation. He had not reached his present eminence and he remembers the wailing about housing in Dublin city.

There was no money.

There was no money, we were told, and no houses and the poor people in this city were led by Deputy Noel Lemass, the then Deputy Haughey and Deputy Briscoe into a conviction that that was so. I assert that that was a deliberate conspiracy to mislead the poor people of this city. The fact now emerges because at that time when this vile campaign was going on, there were 1,500 dwellings being built in this city and the waiting list for houses had been successfully reduced to 4,000.

And the builders were going bankrupt.

There was no money to pay for the houses. There was certainly no money in Cavan.

Let the Deputy go back to Cavan. He will be sent back there after the next election. Let us have regard to the position: 1,500 houses provided.

But not paid for.

At the time of this campaign, in Dublin city alone, when these conspirators found themselves facing the responsibility of office, instead of 1,564 houses there was a sudden drop to 1,000, then down to 460, a slight rise to 505 and then down to 207. We have the miserable situation today in Dublin that it is hoped this year, doing the best they can, that they may possibly reach 500 houses. The result is that today there are 9,000 families seeking houses in Dublin city; of those 4,000 are affected by one medical condition or another and have been passed as urgent cases by the city health authorities.

That is a miserable record. Whoever is responsible should and will be held to account. Perhaps in the very near future the test of public opinion in this city and county will be applied to that miserable record in relation to housing. However, there was more. When they began to assume office, they talked about taxation. I wonder does the Deputy from Cavan who was not in the House at the time remember the word "levies" and how the poor people who had to import Jaguar cars were listened to with sympathy by Fianna Fáil because of the import levies they had to pay on motor cars, television sets, radios and things of that kind? In the general election campaign of 1957, taxation became the bye-word of Fianna Fáil. People were being taxed too heavily. The burden of taxation was such that it could not be borne by the people and the Fianna Fáil Government would see it end.

These things now must be subject to review. Take employment. Unemployment figures were bad in 1956. They began to improve in the beginning of 1957 but they were not good. Fianna Fáil used the expression: "Employment figures are the test of any Government" and with buglers blowing a fanfare the Taoiseach gave us the Fianna Fáil plan for 100,000 new jobs. All that had to be done was to vote in a Fianna Fáil Government and jobs would grow like mushrooms in summertime after a shower of rain. Emigration would cease and the Irish people would find jobs growing all over the country.

I have here the Dáil Reports which make rather amusing reading now six years later. It is a Dáil Report which contains speeches by Fianna Fáil Ministers in the first flush of victory after their election to office on March 20th, 1957, just this time of the year. When the Vote on Account in that year was moved by the Fianna Fáil Minister for Finance, it was formally opposed by the Opposition because the Minister made it clear he had not had time fully to examine the details of the Supply Services of that year which, as the House would appreciate, he said, were prepared by his predecessor. He gave an undertaking that there would be an earlier Budget and, in the Budget, people would see evidence of Fianna Fáil's concern in relation to the reduction of taxation. And so the Budget came.

It is well that Deputies should remember that in that year a sum which appeared large—in fact, Fianna Fáil Deputies described it as "shocking"— a sum of £111 million was required to run the State. "Shocking" said Fianna Fáil, in effect—"but, of course, we had nothing to do with it. It was a figure that was there because of our predecessors but we shall deal with it now."

In his Budget statement of that year—and I am reading from Volume 161, column 939 of the Official Report —the Minister for Finance had this to say on the subject of taxation and State expenditure:

In the short time available since the Government took office it would obviously have been impossible to examine critically and justly all the objects of expenditure of the taxpayers' money. The searching out of wasteful or unnecessary expenditure and its elimination will require keen and continuous attention...

I shall just pause there to ask the sympathy and understanding of the House for what we felt over here on these Benches when we saw and heard the Minister make this statement and say those words: "the searching out of wasteful or unnecessary expenditure and its elimination will require keen and continuous attention."

Hawkeye Ryan was on the job. This new Minister was coming in to clean out the Augean Stables. We were to have a vista, we were told in the Budget statement, of keen and continuous attention, the concentrated activity by this new Government searching out wasteful and unnecessary expenditure. He goes on:

...but the urgency and difficulty of our budgetary problem this year required that a start should be made at once.

Then he says:

I shall mention a number of specific economies which have already been decided upon but which represent merely an instalment of what the Government in time intends to do.

—"merely an instalment"—and he goes on to say:

It will be no surprise that I should begin with the administrative machine.

The present annual cost of the Civil Service, Garda Síochána and the Defence Forces amounts in round figures to £25,000,000

He tut-tutted mentally and said:

almost £17 million for the Civil Service, over £3½ million for the Garda Síochána and nearly £5 million for the Army.

He went on to say:

The existing Civil Service structure seems too elaborate for our needs. The grading system is to my mind unduly complex. I intend that these matters will be examined and radical changes made which will, I believe, ultimately produce worthwhile economies.

So spoke the Minister for Finance of the newly-elected Fianna Fáil Government on 8th May, 1957, when he was asking this country and the taxpayers to provide for him and the activities of the State £110 million.

We propose to examine those sentiments and to see whether there was much behind them other than the thought which promoted the framing of the words. In the six years, since, I do not know whether Deputy Dr. Ryan, as Minister for Finance, applied "keen and continuous application" to the expenditure requirements of the State. I do not know whether he succeeded in cutting out "wasteful or unnecessary expenditure." I am sure he had good intentions. The way to a certain warm place is paved with them.

We cannot proceed according to what may have gone on in the mind of the Minister for Finance. We cannot judge what changes of policy may have been decided on by the Government nor what shifting of feet on different problems may have brought about in the past six years. We can only judge the results.

To day, the Civil Service, the Garda and the Defence Forces cost something over £10 million more than they did when these brave words were uttered six years ago. The existing Civil Service structure which in 1957 seemed too elaborate for our needs and about which the Minister for Finance said he intended to make radical changes is still the very same—with this difference, of course, that there are more civil servants to-day than there were six years ago. Today we are spending more on the Civil Service, more on the Defence Forces, more on the Gardaí, more on these particular headings of expenditure which the Minister extracted as an example in his Budget statement of 8th May, 1957.

Maybe the increase in expenditure could not have been avoided. If it could not have been avoided, the question is whether it should ever have been seriously put forward as a legitimate enterprise by the Government in the way of economy. The fact, of course, is that no serious effort appears to have been made by the present Minister or the present Government to examine, in a careful and responsible way the manner in which State expenditure is assessed and the national requirements in that regard because to-day, instead of £110 million being required for the expenditure of the State, after six years of Fianna Fáil, we have now reached a new record. This year, the requirements of the State will total £200 million. That is not bad, in the short space of six years.

Adding in the Central Fund the total increase in State expenditure is over £50 million. That is a pretty poor result for the Minister for Finance who, in the flush of victory in May, 1957, held forth to the taxpayers the belief that very shortly radical changes would be brought about. We are now spending £1 million a week more on the requirements of the State than we did when this Government were elected to office. That seems to suggest a certain amount of inefficiency. It seems to suggest that the Government have not the ability to carry out what they said they would do. It may be that what they said they would do is incapable of achievement and, if so, it should not have been said. If it is capable of achievement, why has it not been achieved?

It is certainly remarkable that in 1963, when a suggestion was put forward by the Government—and dropped like a hot potato—that there should be a pay pause, and when everybody was told: "For heaven's sake, take care; control your demands", that the one institution and organisation in the State that applies no strictures to itself should be the Government. It is remarkable, surely, that the requirements in relation to the Government's demands continue to shoot up, with not a single explanation or apology for it. We now have a record State expenditure of £200 million, that is, £4 million a week, and still no member of the Government is the slightest bit apologetic on that account.

I remember reading through the Dáil debates of other days, other years, and other personalities. A short while ago I read with interest the horror with which a member of this House in 1931 viewed the expenditure of those days. There was a tall Deputy who used to speak from this side of the House at that time. Referring to the requirements of the State, which at that time totalled the sum of £30 million, he turned to the then Leader of the Government and said: "You are running the State as if it is a mighty empire". Even applying the ordinary three-fold rule of thumb to the changes in the value of money, there is still a tremendous difference between the requirements in the way of State expenditure today and the requirements of 30 years ago.

I have no doubt that most people, even those on whom this bill may press unduly hard, would say: "Well, if the money is needed so be it. It has got to be paid." If it were genuinely needed for the provision of essential services in the State, the average person might not like it but he would certainly feel there was nothing that could be done about it. There is a conviction, amounting almost to a certainty, that there has not been any responsible scrutiny of the requirements set out in this Book of Estimates, and that no real effort has been made to apply what was promised: a keen and alert attention to the demands in relation to the particular services. For that reason we can justly say that this Book of Estimates is another demonstration of the inefficiency of the Government and their unsuitability for the tasks which they have set themselves.

That is not the only record we mark this year. Six years after Fianna Fáil came into office this record figure of £200 million is only one record. There are two others that we reach this year. In this financial year we also reach a record figure for the national debt of £500 million. Never before has this country owed so much money. There was a time when a certain Party in this House used to be so concerned about the national debt that they got out posters showing the three golden balls of the pawnbroker and decorated hoardings of the city with these posters saying: "Watch out; the country is being put in pawn."

At the time of a national loan.

As I am reminded, those posters were circulated through the city at a time when the Minister for Finance was asking the people to invest in the future of their own country.

That is not correct.

The Deputy from Cavan was not here.

I know all about it.

We will produce the record for the Deputy.

(Interruptions.)

Those pawnbroker's signs were used by the Fianna Fáil Party in Opposition in 1949 when the then Minister for Finance was seeking money by way of a national loan. I have not got the figures before me, but I think the national debt at that time was one of the lowest in any country of comparable size in the world. It was almost insignificant. When, in pursuance of a capital programme in those years, Deputy McGilligan, as Minister for Finance, said to the people: "Instead of investing abroad, here is a national loan; invest your money here at home so that your money can work at home", there were cries of horror from Fianna Fáil that the country was being put in pawn, and that we were pledging its future. It is well to remember those things in these days.

As I said, the second record is that we have a national debt of £500 million. One of the difficulties in our yearly budgeting is the servicing of that debt, the raising of taxation in order to pay the interest on the debt.

Have we no assets at all?

Had we no assets in 1949?

There was no irresponsible Opposition here in the past six years when the Minister for Finance announced that in a few days a new national loan would be floated. On those occasions, Deputy Sweetman or the Leader of the Opposition stood up from these benches to assure full support for the loan. That is, perhaps, a formality here. It used to be done in the same way by a representative of the Fianna Fáil Party. The difference is that what was said on behalf of this Party was meant. Deputy Sweetman or the Leader of the Opposition did not run out from this House and order the printers to print posters with the pawnbrokers' sign on them. The difference is that when a spokesman on behalf of this Opposition assures the Government of support for a national loan, those words are not spoken only from the teeth out.

It is the subscriptions that count, not the words spoken.

Even despite the support extended, it is notable to record that one recent national loan did not get the subscriptions sought.

It is time that was said.

There is a national debt of £500 million. That has to be paid for by every tenant of a council house in Cavan, by every old age pensioner who scrapes his knife on his little bit of plug, by every man who goes into a public house and orders a pint, by the majority of the poor people of this country. They are paying now to service a national debt of £500 million.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

I was referring to the fact that the record national debt has to be serviced and it can be serviced only by raising money to pay the interest. The only way money can be raised to pay the interest is by taxation. When taxation has to be imposed, every person in this country, rich or poor, to a lesser or greater extent, has to contribute to the raising of that taxation. It is for that reason that we in this House have a duty that may at times appear unnecessarily harsh, but one that has to be discharged, to be as careful as possible in relation to our scrutiny of the objects of State expenditure. We in the Opposition can do that only by debates such as this and by ensuring that if there is evidence of ministerial default, it should be exposed.

We would be failing in our duty if we did not do so. To increase unnecessarily the added debt in this State is a very wrong thing. It would mean that unnecessary expenditure would be indulged in obtaining for the Government of the day temporary and fleeting popularity, but leaving behind an obligation to be borne by rich and poor alike. It is because we see this year a record figure for expenditure of £200 million and an accrued debt of £500 million that we question whether efficiency is being displayed in the running of the national finances. It does not appear to us that in any phase of activity in the past six years, there has been any attempt at proper housekeeping on the part of the Government. Every single year, the demand in relation to expenditure has increased. Every single year there has been a substantial addition to the national debt.

We do not hear now any statements such as those made by the Minister for Finance six years ago when he introduced his first Budget. All that is gone. Apparently the view of the Government is: "What does it matter? The poor fools will pay anyway." The idea seems to be to think of a number and put it in the Book of Estimates. But, at the same time, the people had better be careful. There is to be a pause in pay demands and in income but there is not to be any pause in Government expenditure. That adds up to inefficiency and we assert that the Government are not an efficient Government. They have not displayed any evidence of efficiency and have been drifting along from record to record in relation to high expenditure without any clue as to where they are going. The only thing certain is that expenditure is going up.

That is only the second of the records we note this year. There is another, equally disturbing. At the end of this financial year, we had a record adverse balance of trade with other countries. For the first time, we are £100 million "in the red." We have bought more than we have sold to that extent and we are "in the red" to that enormous degree. We have had our ups and downs in trade as a nation over the past 40 years. In 1956, the difficult year for this country, the balance of payments resulted in a problem but even then our adverse balance of trade had not reached the figure it reached this year. That is a record we must comment on in this debate. But are the Government concerned about it? Not a bit. Some of them do not even know of it.

They do not run away from it, as you did.

Deputy Dolan is wondering if I am talking about the balance of payments. There is a record adverse trade balance of £100 million. It seems somebody is not being very efficient. It seems that somebody is holding down a Ministry who is not capable or, perhaps, the situation is that nobody is giving any proper lead in the Government. We had a great deal of bluster over the past 12 or 18 months about realism in the Government. The Taoiseach, in succeeding his predecessor, was supposed to be a realist. I wonder what we were supposed to imagine his predecessor was?

The present Taoiseach has traded on the term "realism". He was introduced to the public some 18 months ago as the new Fianna Fáil Leader who would turn Fianna Fáil away from themselves. Has he achieved anything except so much bluff and bluster? I suggest that one thing he has not brought about and one thing that has been needed in recent years is leadership. I assert that one of our difficulties now is that there is no member of the Government, least of all the Taoiseach, who knows his own mind with any certainty from one day to another. We have had many examples since Deputy Lemass became Leader of the Government of the Government announcing a decision and then taking panic measures to deny the first announcement. We have had not only a gap or a break outside Ireland in relation to Western Europe but this has certainly set our people at sixes and sevens. If the Government do not know where they are going, one cannot expect the people to know where the Government are bringing the country.

That situation in Government has had its sequel in a slipshod approach to national and State activities resulting, in the context of which I am speaking at the moment, in a record adverse trade balance. If that were a designed and planned enterprise, one could understand it. If it were designed and planned that we should run a deficit this year for a particular purpose, such as the importing of plant or machinery urgently required; if that were designed and controlled, it might be understandable but there has been no design or plan in this case. It has just happened. In fact, at the end of the year's trading, it is rather a surprise to the Government to know that we lost so much in the past year. That shows that there is no leadership. A small country such as ours, in these times above all, cannot hope to survive unless there is intelligent leadership in Government.

Our adverse trade balance is not the last of the records we celebrate this year. We mark this year, if a figure recently disclosed in the British House of Commons of 67,000 new Irish applicants for insurance cards, is correct, a record in the number of our people emigrating in a five-year period. At the end of the past five-year period, we succeeded in exporting to Britain 250,000 Irish boys and girls since 1957. That is a notable figure, the fourth record for the year.

I suppose the Minister for Transport and Power would say they were a notable army working for us in England, part of our garrison abroad and a very important part it is because that money they have been sending back in remittances in the past 12 months has helped to prevent our adverse trade balance turning into a balance of payments problem. It has helped to reduce the deficit but it is a very disturbing fact that after all the euphoria the Government have tried to create about boom and prosperity and "never having had it so good", the plain fact is that a quarter of a million of our people had to pick up their bundles and go to seek jobs in England. That is a record figure for continuous emigration over a five-year period. It is certainly one of which no Government should be proud. It is in those circumstances that we continue to examine the record of the Government.

Their record has been notable in relation to the four matters I have mentioned; but there is a fifth. As we learned today at Question Time, the total amount collected in local taxation in the financial year under review is £22½ million. That, again, is the highest since this State was formed— a fifth record. We have the highest figure for State expenditure; the highest figure for the national debt; the highest figure for an adverse trade balance; the highest figure for emigration and the highest figure for rates, which is to be collected by way of local taxation from every ratepayer in the country. No wonder there are cries of horror at this time of the year when the administrative machine goes into operation and the rate is struck. No wonder the ratepayer, who is also a taxpayer, looks with profound depression on the mechanism now being prepared, which will eventually translate itself into a half-yearly rate demand.

Soaring rates, soaring taxation, soaring emigration, a deficit in our trade with other countries—these are the results of Fianna Fáil administration. There was a time when Fianna Fáil Ministers used to say, when reminded of their shortcomings: "It is not our fault. You left us in debt." There was indeed a reference reminiscent of that at Question Time today when the Minister for Local Government proceeded to excuse his appalling record of a couple of hundred houses in Dublin city by trying to suggest it was some sort of delayed reaction to the action of his predecessor over six years ago. There can be no alibi now. This present Government are fully responsible for the state of Ireland today. If it is good, they can take the credit; if it is bad, they take the responsibility. They cannot shelter behind anybody's coat strings. They cannot pass the buck.

They will take the responsibility and not pass it on like you.

There will be no passing the buck. If we have those records this year, the responsibility is that of Fianna Fáil. We have no means of knowing how the Minister for Finance proposes to face up to the question of raising the money to pay this enormous bill. We are conscious of the fact that the taxpayer hears still ringing in his ears the assurance given by the Taoiseach in the general election in the autumn of 1961 that there would be no increase in taxation. We know well that only a short time ago the people were asked to vote for Fianna Fáil on the assurance that a ceiling was being put to the load of taxation.

We are told by the Taoiseach that there are going to be reforms in relation to the system of taxation. We will have to wait and see what these reforms will be, conscious of the fact that this Dáil, the same as any other Dáil, is a House which assembles, sits for awhile and then passes away. This House has been here for some 18 months. I do not know if it will be here this time next year. I do not know whether it will live its full term. But outside, watching us, and watching that Government, there are the people who exercise the ultimate power in this country—the electorate. They are studying this Government by placing on one side their pledges and promises and, on the other, what they have achieved. Bluster and big speeches cannot take the place of actual performance.

We have had in the past 12 months an unreal situation where all attention was focussed on what was supposed to be the difficult and anxious negotiations in Brussels. All of us were led to believe that Irish Ministers were having headaches by reason of the onerous duties, the bargaining and hard fighting they had to do in Brussels in relation to our expected entry into the Common Market. If in the last 12 months somebody referred to the growing unemployment figures, he was told: "Do not say a word about that. It will only embarrass the negotiations for our entry into Europe." If a question critical of the Government arose in the past 12 months, we were told: "Do not say a word. The Belgians and the French will get to hear about it and we will not get in." All that is over now. It transpires now we never had any negotiations. We were twirling our thumbs here when the Dutch and other countries were out-pointing us.

The common Market has blown up and, in its process of blowing up, the air of unreality which it created has been swept aside. We are now back on our own resources. We cannot hope for any escapism in other lands and other pastures. We are back relying on ourselves, sinn féin. It is in that situation, in the beginning of the spring of 1963, with 67,000 unemployed, with 250,000 working in England, with the balance of trade running against us, with repacious demands on behalf of the State in relation to expenditure, with soaring rates—in a situation of that kind, we of the Opposition ask: "Quo vadis?"

I am glad to note Deputy O'Higgins has paid the Fianna Fáil Party the tribute that, when in power, they accept responsibility. I can recall two Coalition Governments in power here made up of a number of Parties, each of which attempted to take credit for what was good and to throw the blame on the other for what was unpopular. So far as this Government are concerned, we take responsibility.

The increase in the Estimates this year is large. Some of this is due to increases for those with a claim on the public purse, such as public servants. Some of it is due to a greater outlay on services which are more or less the barometer of our standard of living, such as social welfare and health services. But a large part of it is being used to stimulate higher production, to expand national income and, by so doing, give a better standard of living to all our people.

When I first came into this House, I was intrigued by members of the Opposition advocating day after day more and more expenditure on practically every facet of government, and then coming in at this time of year, on the Vote on Account, and holding up their hands in horror because of what they claimed to be the size of the bill produced by the Minister for Finance. I might add that I am no longer surprised at this attitude on the part of the Opposition. It is something that we on this side of the House have come to expect from them, an irresponsible attitude. One has only to make a brief study of the various motions by Opposition Parties appearing on the Order Paper during the year, advocating very considerable increases in expenditure; one has only to look at the questions by Opposition members that appear on the Order Paper, many of them implying increased expenditure, to visualise the enormous increase that there would be in the present Book of Estimates if the Opposition had their way.

I have listened to a number of Opposition Deputies expressing the utmost concern at the size of the bill who a short time ago were advocating increases in expenditure in every Department of State. We on this side of the House are anxious to try to keep expenditure within limits. We have to steer a course between the enormous demands made on the Government for better and bigger services and the capacity of our people to pay for them. It should be noted that a very considerable proportion of the increase in the Book of Estimates is going to agriculture. It is recognised by every Party that agriculture is our basic industry and that our economy is entirely dependent on agriculture, on our agricultural exports and on exports of goods which have agricultural products as their raw material. The fact that we are giving this extra money to agriculture does not mean that we are depriving any other section of the community of money because our other industries are to a large extent dependent on agricultural exports. If it were not for our agricultural exports many of our industries which are dependent on raw materials from other countries would be unable to get these raw materials and we would have considerable unemployment. Therefore any expenditure on agriculture is going to react favourably on all other types of employment here.

For that reason, I find it difficult to see where there can be any objection to utilising more money to stimulate this industry. It is well to note that except in one instance all the increases under the heading of agriculture are going towards increased and more efficient production and better marketing. It will be agreed that success in these particular aspects of agriculture are fundamental if we are to improve the standard of living of our people. Some part of this money is going to improve farm advisory services which is something in which I have always believed. I have always advocated that we should improve our advisory services to the greatest possible extent within the limits of our capacity to pay for them. I am personally glad to note the increase for this particular service. There is also very much more money being allocated for the lime and fertiliser subsidies. This, also, is something for which we should be particularly glad. It is a very good sign that the Government find it necessary to increase the amount being allocated for these subsidies because it shows that the farmers are making more and more use of these commodities. This is something which everybody in this House has been advocating over the years. The largest increase being made available under this heading is for the marketing of dairy produce. This again is of the utmost importance. There is no need for me to go into details, that can be done on the Estimate.

During the year, we have been concerning ourselves with the development of industry and the possible adverse effects on industry of our entry into the Common Market. We have not yet been successful in our efforts to become members of the Common Market but nevertheless the same conditions apply because of the fact, as the Taoiseach stated, we will continue to lower our tariff barriers. We were all agreed during the year that it was essential that grants should be paid to our native industrialists to help them re-equip their factories in order to be able to compete under free trade conditions. We were also agreed that money should be made available to re-train workers to become more skilled in their work and also to re-train them so that in cases of redundancy, they could take up another type of employment in the same industry. We were also agreed that it was necessary to provide more money to attract foreign industrialists to set up industries here. So far as I can remember no voice was raised against the Minister's proposals when he brought in legislation with regard to this matter except perhaps by some Opposition Members who thought that the Minister was not going far enough. Now when it comes to making the money available to put these proposals into effect, we find the Opposition complaining of the cost. Surely the position is that these changes were necessary, if we were to be able to compete in a free trade. Nobody suggested at any time that they were not necessary. Now we must pay for them. As usual, of course, the Opposition want to have it both ways.

The Government have been following an industrial policy for the past five years which has increased the national industrial output by 41 per cent. and has put 20,000 more people into industrial employment than were employed in industry five years ago. I feel that the people are well satisfied with the results achieved from the money expended over the years on improving and developing industry and in providing these extra jobs and output. I have no doubt they will also be in favour of providing this extra money provided for in the Book of Estimates. It is agreed, of course, that it is essential to watch taxation and the effect of taxation on the economy generally and on the individual, but on the other hand we should also remember that it is part of the Government's duty to provide the incentives for increased production and increased employment. That is exactly what we are doing here.

With regard to industrial output, Deputy Sweetman suggested that we were falling behind the European countries. The actual position is that while our output in 1960 and 1961 was higher than in 1962 nevertheless our output today is as good as the output in practically all the countries in Western Europe. I will quote now from the Irish Times of yesterday, March 6th; this will be a less biased account, I think, than that of Deputy Sweetman. It is stated here that the “growth in industrial output is most encouraging in spite of the handicap caused by Britain's stagnant economy last year. The rate is now in line with that of the principal European countries”.

It is very easy to complain of the high cost of government but, when we come down to trying to see where we can make reductions, we find ourselves up against the main difficulty. I have noted in the speeches of Opposition Deputies since this debate on the Vote on Account began that at no time have they made any attempt to suggest where a reduction could be made in the Estimates. I could deal with this under many headings, but there is one matter that has been brought forcibly to my notice to-day which may illustrate the position. I have here a cutting from to-day's Drogheda Independent. There is a heading “New Industries Starting Soon in Drogheda” and underneath that heading, there is an account of three different industries which are expected to start very shortly in Drogheda. That, by the way, might be a line to the Opposition to show what we are doing regarding new industry and could be taken in the context of the discussion at Question Time to-day about what the Government are doing to provide employment for our people. Now, I have no doubt that certain people in my constituency will complain about the high cost of Government expenditure to-day. I should like to ask those people who complain whether they would be willing to have the grants from State funds paid to these industries to come to Drogheda taken away, thereby reducing the Book of Estimates and also, of course, reducing prospects of employment in Drogheda. If that is their suggestion, then they should say so publicly, and not simply refer to the high cost of government. I should like to say in reply to them that they should bear in mind, when speaking of the weight of taxation, that the difficulties caused to employed people by taxation are nothing as compared with the difficulties facing the unemployed man, particularly if he is an unemployed man with a family, and, so long as I am a member of this House and so long as I can influence industrial policy in any way, I shall advocate more and more spending, spending to the very limit of our capacity, on industrial expansion. I shall advocate providing more money for our national industrial enterprises to increase efficiency and provide more employment, more money to private enterprise so that we will give an opportunity to our industrialists to re-equip their factories and improve their efficiency, again with a view to employing more people, more money to be devoted towards encouraging foreign industrialists to come in here until such time as we have full employment. I do not think anyone can have any objection to the amount being made available for these purposes in the Estimates.

Deputy T.F. O'Higgins mentioned the levies. I did not think they were something he would mention, but he tied them to Jaguar cars and said something about Fianna Fáil sympathy for owners of Jaguar cars. I do not think I have ever seen a Jaguar. I do not think there are many in my constituency who have them. What I remember chiefly about the levies is the fact that in my constituency—it is highly industrialised—the levies almost closed down the factories there. From one end of the country to the other, week after week, there were reports in the local papers of considerable numbers being knocked out of employment. I have in mind particularly an industry in my own parish which employed about 250; week after week tens and twenties were knocked off. To-day that factory employs 900.

Deputy O'Higgins also mentioned national loans and suggested that this Party had been opposed to the loan floated by the Coalition Government. There is nothing I need say in reply to that except to state that Deputy de Valera, as he then was, the Leader of the Opposition, supported the loan here and advised the people to support it.

And then put out the pawnbroker's sign.

But even with that recommendation, it was not filled.

The Deputy's was not filled this year.

Deputy O'Higgins mentioned the cost of servicing the national debt. Here I could not follow his reasoning. He suggested the cost had to be paid by every taxpayer. Surely part of this national debt is due to the Coalition. No one on either side of this House opposes national loans provided they are used for capital purposes and I cannot see why any Deputy should come in here and try to make something out of the fact that the interest on these loans would have to be met from taxation. I cannot understand his reasoning. Neither can I grasp what he intended to imply.

Various groups under the heading of Social Welfare received increases during 1962. These increases are responsible to a considerable extent for the increase in the Estimate in that particular respect. I cannot believe that anybody would have any objection to increases to people who are dependent on social welfare. Of course, judging by the miserly increases given by both Coalition Governments during their terms of office, it is quite possible that certain ultraconservatives in the Opposition might deep down in their hearts have a decided objection to social welfare. Apart from that, I do not believe anyone in this House would object to increasing the amount made available for recipients of social welfare. So far as we are concerned, we have always believed it right that we should allocate to those who are dependent on social welfare the largest possible amount of the national income. Not only have we advocated that but we have acted on our belief and, during our various terms in office, we have increased very considerably the money made available to these people. That is only as it should be. I need not go further because the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance, Deputy O'Malley, went very deeply into it last night.

Under the heading of Defence, £273,000 has been allocated for the purchase of helicopters. Almost everyone has advocated the purchase of helicopters. The reasons why were stated and, in general, the House agreed with the reasons put forward. Provision is now made for buying them. Again, the Opposition do not appear to be too anxious to want to pay for them.

Mention was made of employment. What always interests me in connection with this question of employment is that, whenever an Opposition Deputy stands up here to talk about the employment position during their term in office, and compares it with ours, he invariably starts with the year 1955. I cannot understand why the Opposition should take the year 1955 because that was neither a year in which they came into office nor was it a year in which they went out of office. When I say I cannot understand it, I know what the political reasons for it are.

I wish to quote what the actual position was. The Coalition were in office from early 1954 to early 1957. In early 1954, the total employment was 1,185,000, and in early 1957, it was 1,136,000, which was, during these three years, a fall of 49,000. Between 1958 and 1961, the latest figures available show that employment fell by 3,000. That was during our term of office. This fall was very much lower but we are not happy that there was a fall of any description. We recognise, however, that in keeping with other countries in Europe, we had a fall in the number employed in agriculture and we are hopeful that the figures this year will show that this fall has been arrested.

As most of the other points I had in mind to raise here have been dealt with by other Deputies, I do not think it is necessary for me to pursue them. The only thing I would say is that while the Estimates are high, the bulk of the money being made available is designed to improve the economy, to increase production and to improve marketing and, in the long run, to improve the standard of living of our people. For that reason, it is difficult to see where the Opposition find objection to the various increases that are to be found in the Book of Estimates.

In common with other Deputies who have spoken, Deputy Faulkner could not refrain from reverting to the situation which existed and which was dealt with competently by this Government in relation to the crisis which occurred in 1956. May I deal with it in the space of half a minute by quoting for the Deputy the words of his Taoiseach, Deputy Lemass. The reference is Column 1150, Volume 161, of the Official Report of 14th May, 1957:

I do not intend to criticise the previous Government for the action it took in relation to the balance of payment difficulties that arose last year. We have had our debates upon that in the past and it was the subject of much discussion during the course of the election campaign which brought this Dáil into being. Nobody denies that a problem has arisen there which was critical for the country and one with which the Government in office had to deal.

This is the sentence I want to emphasise:

It was dealt with by the Government of the day. I did not think they were dealing with it in the right way but we certainly recognised their obligation to do something about it...

It would be well if that sentence were firmly and strongly planted in the mind of the Deputy:

...we certainly recognised their obligation to do something about it and as a result of the measures they took that balance of payments problem was solved for the time being.

That disposes of all the arguments and all the red herrings produced by those who must hark back to the terrible levies. Of course they did not advert to the fact that, having used that very effectively in the election campaign and having secured office in consequence, their new Minister for Finance turned those levies into permanent taxes for the first time. If those levies were so detrimental to the well-being of the people employed in industry, why should an incoming Fianna Fáil Minister for Finance avail of them as a revenue-producing medium as he did in his time, in complete contradiction of all the criticism offered at the time the levies were initiated? It was clearly and emphatically stated by the Minister for Finance at the time, Deputy Sweetman, that as far as he was concerned and as far as his Government were concerned—and I am quite clear on this even without reference to notes—they were in every sense temporary measures applied to do a particular corrective job in relation to the balance of payments and for no other purpose and furthermore —and this can stand up to the scrutiny of anyone who cares to investigate it—that no single penny which accrued from these levies was to be applied to the relief of a budgetary situation in relation to current expenditure.

Had not £10 million of securities to be sold to pay the bills?

Yet Deputies have the nerve to stand up and capitalise on the situation that was not of that Government's making. This Government cannot point to any external pressures as an excuse for their failure. They must accept full responsibility for the present situation. What has occurred in any part of the world that has any impact on the terms of trade affecting us? It could not be the situation in Brunei; it could not be what is happening in South America. There were difficulties in those years to which I have referred and we know what caused them. There was the Suez crisis, petrol rationing, a reduction of £1 million in the estimated income on petrol, a drop of £1 million in revenue from tobacco as a result of the cancer scare. Then there was the situation caused by the dumping of Argentinian meat in Britain resulting in a serious drop in the value of our exports to Britain. All these things occurred in the space of one year.

We took action, as the Taoiseach said. In consequence of the campaign that he and his Party conducted in relation to the levies, he came into office and the first thing he did was to thump his breast and say: "Mea culpa. I have got into office. I admit that the Government took the necessary action to deal with the balance of payments situation.” Now at the end of six years, there is a record imbalance of trade and a record figure in the Book of Estimates. However, comparing the figure presented in the Book of Estimates this year with the figure in the Book of Estimates five or six years ago is just not possible because in the interim various Ministers have made their contribution to easing the situation by transferring a whole litany of efforts that were successful in relieving the pressure on the Minister for Finance.

Let us take the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. There was the increased cost of the stamp. There was the effort of the Minister for Transport and Power in relation to the bus and rail charges and the increased cost of transporting goods by rail or by any means of public transport. All these increases have occurred.

There was also £9 million——

Yes, £9 million for the food subsidies and deducting the little increases that were given in social welfare benefits, it was still a saving of £6½ million to the Exchequer. We were told at the time, as the House will recall clearly, that this was being done to relieve the taxpayer of having to find money to keep down the cost of essential commodities. We can recall and we can prove that we warned the Government that their action in abolishing food subsidies would result in sections of the people who were in a position to demand increases through negotiation securing these increases to compensate for the increase in the cost of living.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 12th March, 1963.
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