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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 10 Jul 1963

Vol. 204 No. 5

Finance Bill, 1963—Committee Stage (Resumed).

Question proposed: "That Section 40 stand part of the Bill."

Under the heading of this section, as being the first section in this Part of the Act, I want to inquire from the Minister the position in relation to the threatened publication by the Revenue Commissioners of a book dealing with stamp duties in a comprehensive way. We were told that it would be available to us during the course of 1962. Although I am not absolutely positive about the date it was promised for, at least it was anticipated that it would have been available before now. Quite apart from its availability—and I hope the Minister will be able at least to repeat his performance of yesterday, in relation to consolidation of income tax laws, of waving a draft printed Bill at me—it is essential that there be some sort of cohesion and co-relation between the Revenue Commissioners and other bodies who are responsible for endeavouring to ensure that the law is available to the public and to practitioners in the best possible form.

I do not know whose fault it is and I want the Minister to be clear that I am not attributing any blame to him or the Revenue Commissioners, just as I am not attributing any blame to the Incorporated Law Society, but it does seem to me to be unfortunate that when there is so little available skilled manpower to deal with jobs of consolidation or explanation in the line of this type of revenue legislation, both the Incorporated Law Society and the Revenue Commissioners should be working side by side without either of them knowing what the other is doing.

The Incorporated Law Society last year published a booklet on stamp duty legislation as one of their modern law books, the second of that ilk. It is a most helpful booklet and I am sure that the book that is to be published by the Revenue Commissioners, or by the Minister on the authority of the Revenue Commissioners, will be equally helpful. It seems unfortunate, however, that both of them should be working on parallel lines without one knowing what the other is doing, instead of one branch working along one line and the other working along another. I say that because it is common ground with every practitioner, be he barrister or solicitor or member of the public, that there are a very great number of Acts which require examination in this way in our tax law, both in relation to stamp duty and in relation to income tax and surtax as I referred to yesterday, and indeed, I may add, to death duties.

Quite apart from the necessity of having a text book to bring the law up to date, and of having it explanatory in that way, there is an urgent need for the Government to publish in a single volume those sections of the law dealing with death duties since the establishment of the State.

It is quite unnecessary to have to cope with the mass of full Acts in order to track down death duty legislation. Even when one does a job of home binding as I have done in relation to the Finance Acts from 1941 to 1954 and from 1956 to 1962, it is entirely undesirable that they should have to be dealt with in that cumbersome way. The Minister should arrange immediately that there should be published in extracts those parts of the Finance Act that deal with death duties in one separate volume and those parts that deal with income tax in another separate volume and perhaps those dealing with corporation profits tax might be dealt with in the same way. Otherwise, if anyone has necessity to have frequent recourse to these Acts one must examine one after the other because of the manner in which they are amended and the physical job of carrying them all around is one that impedes proper consideration of the problem.

Section 40 is the first section under Part V which is that part of the Bill which refers to stamp duties. So far as the section itself is concerned, I assume this is another part of the tidying up operation which was partly done last year. I should like the Minister to tell us what amount of duty will be involved in the operation of this section.

It is hoped to have the publication with regard to the stamp duties brought out in October. As I told the Dáil yesterday, I was hoping to have the consolidation of the income tax Acts before the next Budget. I do not know what progress has been made with regard to death duties but I presume it is being dealt with.

Perhaps the Minister might give me some information with regard to the death duties if I raise it on a later stage of the Bill. Perhaps he will be able to tell me, if we cannot expect an early publication of the textbook or the consolidated matter, which is it?

I do not know.

If it is not going to be dealt with at an early date, I would ask the Minister to get the Stationery Office to publish in one volume excerpts from the Finance Acts since 1922 which affect death duties.

That would be the first stage.

Would the Minister also ensure that in any of this consolidation or textbook preparation or publication the Revenue Commissioners will keep in close contact with the secretary of the Bar Council and the secretary of the Law Society so that all three bodies will be aware of what the others are doing?

They are in touch all the time.

Somebody did not know that the Revenue Commissioners were proceeding with the textbook preparation at the time this was issued.

The Revenue Commissioners did collaborate with the Law Society on that.

If he asks, the Minister will find out that the preparation of this had gone a long way before the Law Society were aware that the Revenue Commissioners had the textbook in mind.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 41.

I move amendment No. 14:

Before Section 41, to insert the following new section:

"41. The First Schedule to the Stamp Act, 1891, shall have effect as if the following exemption were inserted therein under the heading `Bill of Exchange or Promissory Note':

`Bill drawn on any form supplied by the Revenue Commissioners for the purpose of remitting amounts of turnover tax.' "

This amendment is not very difficult to understand. It is merely to make sure that a bill of exchange in the form supplied by the Revenue Commissioners will not be charged.

As the Government will be beaten on the turnover tax, the amendment will not operate.

You never know.

Amendment agreed to.
Question proposed: "That Section 41, as amended, stand part of the Bill".

Does a body corporate as mentioned in line 26 include a corporation sole?

I do not think so.

Would it not be desirable?

I understand the necessity for that has not arisen so far.

What happened when Bord Fáilte bought premises?

Are they a corporation sole?

I think so. Deputy Colley would be a better judge of that than I am. He was chairman of a body that gave long and anxious consideration to that.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 42.
Question proposed: "That Section 42 stand part of the Bill."

I take it there is no question whatever of any change in yield under Section 42? It is only to provide easier administration?

There is no change in yield.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 43.

I move amendment No. 15:

In page 27, lines 40 to 45, to delete subsection (1) and substitute the following subsection:

"(1) Conveyances or transfers of stocks or marketable securities, instead of being chargeable with stamp duty at the rates in force immediately before the commencement of this section, shall be chargeable with that duty at the following rates:

When the amount or value of the consideration for the sale does not exceed £1 5s

3d.

Exceeds£1 5s. and does not exceed

£2 10s.

6d.

,,

£2 10s.

,,

,,

,,

£3 15s.

9d.

,,

£3 15s.

,,

,,

,,

£5

1s.

,,

£5

,,

,,

,,

£10

2s.

,,

£10

,,

,,

,,

£15

3s.

,,

£15

,,

,,

,,

£20

4s.

,,

£20

,,

,,

,,

£35

5s.

,,

£35

,,

,,

,,

£60

10s.

,,

£60

,,

,,

,,

£80

15s.

,,

£80

,,

,,

,,

£100

20s.

,,

£100

,,

,,

,,

£125

25s.

,,

£125

,,

,,

,,

£150

30s.

,,

£150

,,

,,

,,

£175

35s.

,,

£175

,,

,,

,,

£200

40s.

,,

£200

,,

,,

,,

£225

45s.

,,

£225

,,

,,

,,

£250

50s.

,,

£250

,,

,,

,,

£275

55s.

,,

£275

,,

,,

,,

£300

60s.

,,

£300

,,

,,

,,

For every £50, and also for any fractional part of £50, of such amount or value

10s.

When I put the provision in the Budget in relation to stamp duties on the transfer of shares, I had heard in the course of the British Budget that they had reduced it there and, if it was not done here, a great deal of Stock Exchange business would be transferred to London. Then, in the Finance Act there, the British Chancellor of the Exchequer brought in a great deal of detail and we have to bring in a detailed table in much the same way in order to secure the business for our Stock Exchange.

Do I understand the Minister to say this table now included in Section 43 follows the exact pattern of the British Finance Act— that it is an exact copy?

I should like a little clarification on one matter in relation to this. It arises pretty regularly and I think it would be as well it would be clarified beyond question. As I understand the position—I would like the Minister to correct me if I am wrong—in relation to any document of personal estate, transfer or assignment, as long as one of the parties to that document is expressed on its face to be resident in Ireland, the document can be stamped in either England or Ireland by virtue of the double taxation agreement.

I am quite clear such is the position in a case where you have an ordinary transfer of shares. At the same time, it has become to some extent the practice that documents are stamped not entirely with that procedure in mind but whenever it is more convenient. It seems to me it would be a means not of losing revenue but of gaining it if this Schedule we are discussing were brought slightly under the British Schedule instead of running exactly pari passu with it. There are many cases, indeed, where residents in Ireland—by residents I mean persons whose addresses on the face of the instrument are expressed to be here — purchase property outside Ireland and yet the document is stamped on the other side.

I agree entirely with the Minister's point of view that we cannot have our rates of stamp duty higher than those provided for in the British Bill, that if we did, not merely would the Stock Exchange here lose business but the Minister himself would lose very substantial revenue. I would like, however, to see explored the possibility of pushing that further. I am not at all certain that if we did reduce the rate of stamp duty the effect might not in fact be that documents would be stamped here in preference to being stamped in England and the greater volume of transactions thus brought here would lead to an increase in the yield from revenue rather than a decrease. There may be an objection to that. It may be that part of the double taxation agreement is that one would not undercut in that fashion. If so, that would be quite understandable. I do not know whether that is the case or not but it seems to me that, in relation to a very large volume of transfer of stocks and shares where residents here are concerned, there could be something done to channel more of the stamp duty into our revenue instead of to the other side. I should like the Minister to give that some consideration.

When this case arose, I very naturally asked the Revenue Commissioners if it would bring extra business here if the stamp duty were lower. I was told there was a difficulty about that. I had in mind the particular case the Deputy mentioned but there was a British security involved in that case and if it were a lower stamp duty there would have been certain difficulty involved in Britain and because of the trouble involved they might have had the whole transaction carried out in Britain instead of here.

That is where an English company is concerned?

Then the question I posed to the Minister earlier and his reply were not accurate. It, therefore, is not a question of a document being good if stamped in either country. It is good if stamped pro tanto the stamp duty that is on it and if the stamp duty in the other country is at a greater rate then the addition must be put on at the other side.

Under the agreement, the higher rate of income tax applies and the same more or less applies in this case. If there were a higher rate in the other country ours would be brought up to that.

In other words, if an English resident buys—I will not say Guinness because that is a question of a dual register—shares in a solely Irish company and if our rate of stamp duty is higher than the British rate, he can stamp it in Britain and must add an additional stamp duty here and similarly in reverse.

Amendment agreed to.
Section 43, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 44.
Question proposed: "That Section 44 stand part of the Bill".

This is again purely administrative? There is no question of the yield involved?

No change in yield.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 45.
Question proposed: "That Section 45 stand part of the Bill".

This is not a matter of any consequence. When I put down the notice of intention to oppose those sections in this part of the Bill, I was complying with the exigencies of Standing Orders. However, in case Deputy Seán Flanagan is under any deep doubts about our attitude, Sir, you had better put it.

Question put and declared carried.
SECTION 46.

With amendment No. 16, amendments Nos. 17 and 18 seem to be cognate.

And, unless I have misunderstood this, amendment No. 32. Does the Minister agree that amendment No. 32 is cognate? In fact, it is the same thing.

That would appear to be the same.

I move amendment No. 16:

In subsection (1) (a) (i), lines 16 and 17, to delete "(including goods sold before the 1st day of November, 1963)".

As I understand the effect of this section, as drawn in relation to subparagraphs (i), (ii) and (iii) of paragraph (a), the effect of the manner of drafting is to provide that if I buy something now and do not pay for it until after November the shopkeeper concerned will be liable to turnover tax on that purchase. We all know that the pattern of trading is such that in many parts of the country there is a regular system and habit by which accounts are settled once a year. In parts of Kildare, the habit is that they are settled after the harvest. I do not know enough about the pattern in the west of Ireland but I am told that in some parts of it the habit is that you pay your whole year's account when you come in to do your Christmas shopping.

We are not that backward in the west.

Whether, in fact, that operates before you make your Christmas purchases or afterwards is something of which I am not fully aware. However, it seems clear that these three subparagraphs of paragraph (a) were quite deliberately drawn for the purpose of catching that type of transaction. To put it mildly, it would appear most unjust and most unfair. I hope, therefore, I am correct in thinking that the Minister has had second thoughts about this matter and that the retrospective effect of a tax on such purchases will be abolished. Not merely, of course, would that operate in respect of goods bought now, in respect of goods bought in August, September and October, but it would operate in respect of anything bought as far back as last Christmas or for whatever time the account obtained.

Without in any way, at this point, going into the merits of turnover tax as such or, shall I say, the demerits of it because they far out-weigh any apparent advantage anyone might see, it seems entirely wrong that where a credit account is collected such credit account should not be segregated and treated as a segregated factor. I notice in the ministerial amendment No. 32, the variation that if a person in the country is in the habit of settling his account, as often does occur, once a year and if that period of the year happens to be June or July then what will happen is that the purchases by that person in August, in September and in October will, even under the ministerial amendment, become liable for tax. As I understand it, the ministerial amendment purely clears purchases in respect of November or any other four succeeding months, that is, December, January, February and March.

What will be the result? There will be a complete credit squeeze on anyone who has got credit from a shop between now and then. It will be a question not merely of ensuring that the person pays in the ordinary way but if a person does not pay before six months for goods on credit then the effect will be that turnover tax will be charged on the shopkeeper in respect of that debt. In consequence, he will have to start at once to ensure that not one penny is owing to him on 31st March, 1964, in respect of any debt incurred before 31st October, 1963. It will mean a flood of proceedings. It will mean pressure on people throughout the country as a whole and it will have a totally and entirely undesirable effect.

I am not debating at this stage the effect of a turnover tax as such. That matter will be dealt with later on today. But whether or not you have such a tax it is clearly and obviously wrong that a person should have to pay such a tax in respect of any bargain that was struck before 1st November even though the money for that bargain may not, in fact, be collected until after that date.

As I understand it, in amendment No. 32 the Minister has come some part of the way to meet the point in these three amendments but he has not gone the whole way. This matter requires attention and proper consideration if the whole pattern of life in rural Ireland in relation to trading is not to be upset.

Other Deputies from other parts of the country may know the times when it is traditional to pay accounts in their area. The harvest in Kildare is the traditional time. If we have an early harvest, accounts can be paid in September. Any accounts incurred after that payment in September and during October will not be discharged until the following year. That is our regular pattern. It may be a good or a bad pattern: that does not enter into it. It is our regular pattern in our county.

On this section, even if I give the Minister full credit for the amendment he has proposed, it means that the goods sold in the latter half of September and in the month of October on credit will have to bear tax though the tax will not come into operation, according to the Budget statement, until 1st November. That seems a bad principle. Whether or not it may make administration easier, it certainly seems wrong. As far as the general pattern and picture of the three amendments as originally drafted is concerned, I shall defer having anything more to say on them until I hear the Minister's explanation.

In this form of turnover tax sometimes in some countries I believe it is collected on the sales made during the month and in some countries on the cash received during the month. I thought that, as far as conveniencing the shopkeeper was concerned, the cash collection was the most simple method. You only have to take account of your cash turnover and you do not have to give full returns of all your sales. In cases where there are cash transactions it is obvious, if trade goes on fairly normally through the remaining part of the year, that the cash turnover in November will be in or about the same as the sales made. They roughly correspond the whole year around. There may be exceptions, as mentioned by Deputy Sweetman, in the case of some country traders. Bearing that in mind, it would appear to be logical and just to take the cash turnover in November, even though many of the sales were made during October.

The first matter which had to be considered was the case where a contract was made, whether that was by way of hire purchase or otherwise. That obviously had to be dealt with, because if a person had bought a machine or a car on hire purchase, in regard to the payments coming in to the hire purchase company—or if the trader operates what is equivalent to a hire purchase system of his own—it would be obviously unfair to tax that particular item in his receipts. We decided, therefore, in the case of hire purchase agreements or contracts that they should be exempted until the contract runs out. At the same time, I thought it might militate against the revenue if contracts could be entered into between now and the 1st November. Therefore, I thought it fair to give notice that any contracts entered into, whether hire purchase or otherwise, after the 1st August will not qualify for remission of the turnover tax.

As regards ordinary debts or credit given by shopkeepers, the case made by Deputy Sweetman was the case I had in mind. I was aware of the fact that in the country it is quite common for farmers and others to get credit from shopkeepers practically for the whole year. They are paid whenever the harvest comes in, whatever the harvest may be. In the grain and beet counties it is paid when the grain and beet harvest comes in, but I believe in the creamery counties it is paid around May and June when the big milk supply comes in. There is usually a yearly repayment in these cases. It would appear to me there might be considerable hardship inflicted on the shopkeeper if he had to pay 2½ per cent on that fairly substantial bill if it came to him after 1st November. Therefore, it was decided to put in this amendment that any debts incurred or any credit given before the 1st August and paid between 1st November and 31st March would, if properly certified, be free of the tax.

I think it will be agreed that by giving them from the 1st November until 31st March we are giving them a fairly long time to collect these debts. We could not possibly go on for a long period allowing this particular relief of tax to operate. Against that, I should like to mention that where a contract has been made or a hire purchase agreement has been made, it will go on until the end of that agreement, whenever that may be. Some of these agreements may go on for the next couple of years. As we know, a person may get a three year hire purchase agreement on a motor car. Perhaps even more is given in respect of agricultural machinery, but that does not apply here because agricultural machinery is exempted. In the case of a motor car, however, we will have to let it run until the contract expires.

I received at least three or four groups of traders and they all appeared to be satisfied with the arrangements we were making. Naturally, they were perfectly satisfied with the contract and hire purchase side, and they certainly did not make any very strong objection even in the case of the ordinary credit given— that it should not extend to any credit given between 1st August and 1st November.

It seems to me to be the most extraordinary principle that has ever been introduced into taxation that you should create two categories of shopkeepers, one of whom is selling goods on credit between 1st August and 1st November and, when they get paid for the goods they have sold on credit, they are obliged to pay 2½ per cent on their turnover. They are meant to trade side by side with merchants trading for cash, all of whose transactions during this period of three months are free from the 2½ per cent tax.

The Minister has spoken of the various practices in rural Ireland. Sometimes they pay at the harvest; sometimes in the creamery districts in the Spring; and certainly there is a very widespread practice in the West of paying at Christmas. I suppose 90 per cent of the credit accounts in rural Ireland are settled between 1st and 24th December. But, over and above the problem that will be created and the injustice that will be done in rural Ireland, has the Minister's attention been directed to the volume of credit that exists in many businesses in the city of Dublin?

The Minister may easily find cases where some £120,000 of credit sales are effected between 1st August and 1st November, on which the merchant will have to pay 2½ per cent turnover tax in respect of sales made during the months before the turnover tax came into operation at all. He will either have to try and recover it from his customers starting on 1st August, in the knowledge that his competitors trading for cash do not have to collect the tax at all, or else he will have to bear the tax himself. That seems to be so flagrantly unjust that I begin to wonder if we have retained any standards of taxation principles at all. This Finance Bill already adopts, so far as I am aware for the first time since the State was founded, the principle of retrospective taxation. That will do very grave damage but if we are now proceeding to the next stage and going to create two categories of persons engaged in exactly the same trade, subjected to two different standards of taxation, then every principle governing equitable and fair taxation seems to have gone out the window.

Would the Minister tell me what the merchant is to do in respect of the trade he transacts in August, September and October on credit? Does the Minister suggest he should pay the tax himself on account of having given the credit during those three months or that the merchant should notify his customers that credit will cost 2½ per cent for those three months? Does he think it reasonable and fair to impose on one merchant that obligation while his competitor is free of it?

To me the whole proposition is so redolent of injustice and unfairness that I find it hard to formulate the arguments against it because they seem as manifest as the arguments to demonstrate that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. God knows that seems to be evident enough but to prove it is by no means easy. I suggest if this detestable tax is ultimately passed—I hope it will not be—that it should fall reasonably equitably on everybody and that the sensible thing is to say that any cash receipts in respect of sales made after the appropriate date, which is November the 1st, should be subject to tax and that cash receipts other than for sales made after the 1st November should be free of tax. If you are going to authorise exemption of cash receipts in respect of credit sales made prior to the 1st August what problem have you in exempting cash receipts in respect of credit sales made prior to the 1st November? Once you admit the principle of segregation of credit sales receipts from cash sales receipts how does the date affect the calculation? It is just as easy to segregate one as the other.

Manifestly, the Minister has recognised, since he introduced the Bill, that his original proposal was fantastically unjust. He has now gone half-way to improve the injustice which is surely the least desirable of all courses to adopt. If you are going to be unjust, be unjust with a bang for the world to see but if you admit you are unjust the least suitable remedy is to repair one half of the injustice. I could understand it if the Minister said: "We are examining the situation sympathetically but we have concluded that to separate credit sales receipts from cash sales receipts is impossible and we must make the tax apply to all cash receipts after the 1st November." But he does not say that. He recognises it would be impossible to justify on any grounds that proposition and he provides that credit sales prior to the 1st August shall be exempt from tax. Once that principle is admitted the only just thing to do is to say the tax operates from the 1st November and no sales made prior to that will bear the tax. It cannot make any material difference to the Exchequer but the difference it could make to individual merchants could be staggering if they are doing a large credit business, as they are, not only in rural Ireland but also in Dublin.

In addition, it will remove the gross anomaly of providing by our statute law that of two shopkeepers trading side by side one trades up to the 1st November free of tax while his competitor is obliged to trade from the 1st August to the 1st November subject to 2½ per cent tax which obviously, if he is to remain in business, he cannot effectively pass on. We are simply loading him with the new tax which, according to the Minister, the Bill was never designed for but which for administrative reasons is convenient. Surely you cannot justify injustice on grounds of administrative convenience? You have admitted it is possible to segregate the two types of cash intake, cash sales from credit sales receipts, and once that is admitted I urge the Minister most strenuously to see full justice done and provide that credit sales receipts originating from sales completed prior to the 1st November should enjoy the same exemption as the Minister's amendment proposes to extend to sales completed before the 1st August.

Without discussing the merits or demerits of sales tax, I think the Minister has taken the ground from under his own feet and that by introducing his amendment it is made evident that if exceptions can be made for those who purchase before the 1st August there can be two different standards on which the shopkeeper is being asked to deduct 2½ per cent. If there is to be an arrangement whereby those who pay within a period of four months, by the 1st March, are also going to be exempt it seems that the Minister has made it so complicated that the shopkeepers will not be able to operate it at all or he has admitted that it can be operated as the previous speaker suggests.

There is a very strong argument against any retrospective effect for this section because, while the case has been made about people who only pay accounts once a year and might be unfortunate enough to be caught for 2½ per cent on the full year's purchase if they were paying after November 1st, it cannot be overlooked that in country districts it is quite common during periods when work is slack, towards the fall of the year, for the shopkeeper to carry quite a number of good customers who pay when they have the money. The section means that people who may be unemployed from September until February may have to pay tax on goods advanced to them before the 1st November and before the Bill came into effect when they eventually get employment and have money to meet their bills. The Minister should seriously consider the grave hardships that will result if this section, even with the amendment proposed by the Minister, is passed.

I agree there is only one merit in the whole thing, that if the tax is put into operation this year this hardship cannot happen again, that we are finished with it after this year. However, I still consider the case is strong enough against it because of the points which have been made by previous speakers and because of the point I have just made, and particularly, as I said at the start, because of the Minister's suggestion that it is possible to exempt those who purchase up to 1st August and exempt those who pay their bills before the 1st March. If that can be done, then there is no reason why the whole matter should not be wiped out and only goods bought or services rendered after 1st November be included in the tax if the provision succeeds in getting through the House today.

It appears now that the effect of the ministerial amendment is different from what was believed. As the Minister knows, because of the late delivery of the Bill there was less time than there would have been normally for consideration of amendments for the Committee Stage. I would urge you, Sir, that, as it has transpired during the course of the discussion of amendments Nos. 16, 17 and 18, notwithstanding we are on the Committee Stage of the Finance Bill, I would be at liberty at this stage to hand in an amendment to amendment No. 32 of the Minister to delete 1st August and to substitute 1st November. I am prepared to accept that the Minister's method of dealing with it by repayment might be better but it certainly seems we are completely at cross-purposes because of the short notice and I would ask that I would be permitted to hand in an amendment now and discuss it at a later stage.

I should like to reinforce what has been said here because, as Deputy Tully remarked, the fact that it is possible to grant remission or exemption back to 1st August means that it is administratively possible to do it, and the date should be changed to 1st November for the reasons which have been brought forward here.

Most of the business which is conducted in rural areas depends on a settlement either annually or maybe twice a year, but that does not apply exclusively to the rural community. There is a great volume of business in the city of Dublin, in Dún Laoghaire and other cities and towns where trade is carried on on a credit basis and it is not necessary to elaborate here on the type of businesses in which credit is granted. Anyone who has even a slight knowledge of business will recognise immediately that a very large volume of business is carried on on a credit basis. It is true in the case of, say, farmers and rural dwellers paying off shop accounts but it applies equally strongly in the case of credit granted for business purposes where trade is carried on, not merely in business transactions directly with retailers but in a variety of undertakings. The period for payment may vary anything from one month to six months and even to a full year.

Therefore, I believe, in common with the other Deputies who have spoken, that if it is possible, as the Minister's amendment proposes—and I quite agree with the proposed amendment— to do that in respect of the 1st August it ought also to be possible to do it in respect of 1st November. The fact that it is inconvenient or difficult does not justify imposing on certain traders or customers or other persons who are granted credit an increase in tax which does not apply where the transactions would have been paid for in cash. Any possible loss of revenue will be very slight compared with the injustice and hardship which will be caused to a number of traders and customers who normally, as the practice of the business concerned, are afforded credit and time in which to pay. Consequently, this proposed amendment of the Minister should be further amended to allow this exemption or set-off to be applied not in respect of 1st August but in respect of 1st November.

What we are doing is creating a situation whereby I must tell my customers who buy goods on credit from me—and a lot of them do —that: "If you buy those goods in these three months before 1st November the invoice I send with the goods will be inaccurate to this extent that if you do not pay this account before 1st November I must add two-and-a-half per cent to it." That is an unnecessary situation to create. If the dateline can be set at 1st August, it can equally be set at 1st November.

Deputy Sweetman might have given the House a picture of a kind of credit which is peculiar to certain parts of the west of Ireland. A great deal of the retail trade of this country is carried out on a credit basis and the big stores in this city and also in Cork and Limerick, which would have a turnover of £40,000 to £50,000 per month, would be supplying £20,000 worth of goods each month on a credit basis, and the accounts are not always even monthly accounts. A very large section of the people of this country who are in the State service and in jobs in which they are paid monthly are in the habit of paying their accounts monthly and sometimes they take two months to pay. It is the pattern of trade in this country. Is it a fact that they must be told that if they buy goods in September or October, if they do not pay this account before 1st November an additional amount will be charged by way of tax? The Minister should, I think, consult the large retailer organisations and find out for himself what, apparently, the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Finance do not know, namely, that a great deal of the retail business is done on a credit basis.

(South Tipperary): I support the previous speakers. The Minister, when he first introduced this tax, provided that it would extend willy-nilly to all retrospective sales. He has now modified that and cut down the period to three months retrospective to 1st August. I do not know whether that is an expression of a semi-conscientious approach on the part of the Minister or whether it merely represents a Revenue mind trying to anticipate anticipatory buying between August and November. I suppose the worst kind of conscience with which a human being can be afflicted is a half conscience. The fact that the Minister has made it retrospective to a period commencing on August 1st does not in any way take away from the objectionable features of the tax.

We have a large number of shop-keepers who conduct their businesses on a credit basis. It would be true to say that there is scarcely a shopkeeper who would wish to have his business on a cash basis because that is a very difficult basis. I once had a store and my greatest difficulty was trying to avoid credit sales. It is a difficulty with every trader. Yet we find here now that credit traders, who are such not of their own choice, and who will have to pay bank interest and run an overdraft for the commodities given out on credit, are being penalised over this three months as against the lucky ones who can run their businesses on a cash basis.

That is grossly unfair. To my mind there is no difficulty whatever in the Minister securing a statement of debtors as of 1st November from every businessman in the community. That is given every year in the ordinary audited return to Revenue. The amount of money the Minister will get as a result of this three months' retrospective taxation will not amount to a great deal, but it will cause a great deal of annoyance. He should remove this section. He should get a statement of debtors from each trader on 1st November and then give traders a reasonable period in which to collect those debts. I do not think the four months he mentioned is an adequate period. He should allow at least one year and any money collected within the year on the statement of debtors as at 1st November should be free of this 2½ per cent turnover tax. If the Minister expects outstanding debts to be collected in rural Ireland in the months of December, January and February, then the ordinary trader will find himself in an extremely difficult position. I suggest he should extend the period to at least one year.

One Deputy has mentioned retrospection in this connection. That is, of course, unjustified because by putting this amendment into the Bill and having the Bill published with the amendment in it traders are put on notice that after 1st August any credit they may give will be subject to tax. That covers that particular point.

It must be fairly obvious to any Deputy who wants to see this tax, if it is passed, work satisfactorily from the point of view of the collection of revenue that it is not possible to select 1st November. Is it not obvious that any amount of contracts could be made before 1st August for the supply of goods over the following three or four years? Very large sales could be made on credit just before 1st November. Surely any Deputy who has any regard for the collection of revenue must see that these various devices to which resort could be had must be guarded against by putting in a date earlier than 1st November.

The date 1st August was taken, as I said, because the Finance Bill will in the ordinary way be passed before 1st August. Notice is given. As I said earlier, too, I mentioned this amendment to at least two or three retail trade groups I met. None had any objection. They were pleased to know that contracts and hire purchase agreements could be carried on, if already made, and they were glad to know that sales made in the retail way before 1st August would rank for remission if properly certified. One of these groups spoke very strongly on behalf of the country shopkeeper. They all appeared to be satisfied that we had covered the case adequately by exempting from tax any sales made before 1st August.

In connection with a point made by Deputy Hogan, the last speaker, I might mention that they were also perfectly satisfied that all outstanding accounts would be collected before 31st March next. They were not very particular, I would say, as to whether this tax is or is not agreed by the Dáil. I am sure they would be just as well pleased if it were not agreed but, on the assumption it will be agreed, they were looking after their own interests, and they were satisfied with the amendment as far as they were concerned.

Would the Minister please name the groups?

I prefer not to name them.

I find it rather hard to be patient in discussing this because it seems to me so manifestly unjust. The Minister says that anyone who has regard for the revenue must realise that the operation of this tax could not be deferred to 1st November in respect of credit sales. What does the Minister anticipate? Does he seriously suggest that people will go in and buy a ton of butter for the household prior to 1st November? Does he seriously suggest a housewife will buy 10,000 eggs? Does he seriously suggest anyone will go in and buy a whole sheep, or a whole bullock, and hang it up in the larder? How can the Minister anticipate that situation?

Do not accuse me of having the imagination of the Deputy.

Does the Minister seriously suggest that a woman will go in and buy sufficient clothes for the next five years?

She might buy a month before she otherwise would.

If she is so concerned to anticipate this tax, as the Minister appears to apprehend, cannot she make these purchases in July? Of course, any person with any experience of the retail trade knows perfectly well that no amount of anticipation can be effected between July and November that cannot be effected prior to 31st July. If a woman wants to buy a fur coat, and wishes to avoid the tax, what is to prevent her buying it before 31st July?

This is not like a tax on tobacco, or beer, or a specific commodity the distributor of which can withdraw from bond in bulk in anticipation of the imposition of taxation. We all recognised the danger of that type of anticipation years ago, and provided that the Minister for Finance would have power to instruct bonded ware-houses not to release goods except in accordance with a certain rota laid down by him prior to the Budget, so that anticipation of that kind might be avoided. There is no danger of anticipation of this tax in a form that would in any serious degree jeopardise Revenue. By requiring individual merchants to pay this tax themselves, you can place an unjust, and in many cases, a crippling burden on individual merchants who are constrained to meet the taxation themselves on sales made before the tax was scheduled under the Bill to come into operation.

How can this House seriously legislate to provide that two shop-keepers in the same town, one selling on credit, and one for cash, are required by laws made by us to pay a different rate of taxation? There just is not any rag of justice in such legislation. It is shocking to hear the Minister say that it is administrative convenience that induced him to attempt such an operation. It does not make sense when he goes on to say that administrative convenience is met by excluding goods sold prior to 1st August, and cannot be met if we exclude goods sold prior to 1st November. The Minister says: "What I am concerned with here is to protect revenue." Apparently his present anxiety is excessive anticipation if people had up to 1st November to make their credit purchases.

In what categories of goods does he contemplate that anticipation is possible in the months of August, September and October that would not be possible prior to 31st July? I do not see how he can answer that inquiry, because there is not any answer. I urge on him that the damage that could be done to an individual by this provision could be very grievous and substantial. The damage to Exchequer receipts by altering the date to 1st November, and making it universally applicable, would be trivial.

This House must always equate the burdens borne by individual taxpayers and the Exchequer. A sum of money which may be relatively unimportant from the point of view of the Exchequer, could be ruinous to an individual trader. In this case I believe there are several traders who will have to suffer quite crippling losses by meeting this tax themselves, or else, in an effort to recover it, suffer equally damaging losses by the unfair handicap this proposal imposes on them as compared with their cash trading rivals, for no greater offence than that they are giving credit to their customers.

If there is no ground for this arbitrary fixation of 1st August other than the Minister's apprehension that there will be forestalling by way of excess purchases made in the three month period, would he give an indication of the kind of purchases he apprehends? Strangely enough, he is excluding the very kind of credit transaction that might be used for the purpose of forestalling this taxation on a substantial scale. What hire purchase agreement could anyone make, for the purpose of forestalling this tax, in August, September or October, that he could not make in July? If there is a real, serious intention to forestall this tax on a substantial and significant scale, what is to prevent the appropriate contract being made in the month of July?

What essential difference is there between the ordinary credit extended by the ordinary merchant to regular customers and the credit extended by way of hire purchase transactions? I suggest to the Minister that this whole proposal is so riddled with inequity and unfairness that he should change the date to 1st November. Seeing that the proposed 1st August now rests on the proposition that he apprehends substantial forestalling which would jeopardise Exchequer receipts in this year, would he give some indication of the type of forestalling—on what merchandise or transaction—he contemplates as possible in these three months on a scale or of a character which would seriously interfere with the prospective Exchequer receipts from this tax? Can the Minister indicate what type of forestalling he anticipates?

I do not think there is much use. I do not expect to convince the Deputy.

We have reached a perfectly desperate situation in this House if the Minister finally reaches the stage at which he says: "I will not debate this issue." Since we first raised the question the Minister has changed the ground——

I did not change my ground. I did not say it was administratively impossible at any time.

I understood that to be the Minister's earlier suggestion.

I never did.

He later said——

I did not refer to administrative difficulty at any time.

What is the meaning of the phrase, "anyone who has any concern for the collection of revenue" except——

Revenue collection is not administrative difficulty.

I understood the Minister to say that in addition he apprehended some substantial with-holding of revenue by manipulation if this exemption were conceded. I have put to him that inasmuch as this tax applies to food, fuel and clothing, I cannot anticipate any forestalling on the purchase of food which would be practicable on a scale which would seriously interfere with Exchequer receipts.

It is manifest that people cannot accumulate vast quantities of fuel in that no house is equipped to receive more than the winter's supply. It is obvious, or at least I have sought to make it, that there is no anticipatory purchase of clothes possible in the months of August, September, and October that is not possible in the month of July. Anyone who wants to buy a fur coat can go and buy it now. Anyone who wants to buy fashion apparel unless she is daft will not buy it to cover more than a period of 12 months because what is fashionable today will not be fashionable in two years' time. Of course, anybody who wants to buy durable clothes can buy them now on credit if he desires to anticipate this tax.

The plain truth is that the character of the tax is so wide and comprehensive that there is not any field in which anyone will be tempted deliberately to anticipate the tax but what is going to happen is that the individual merchant selling on credit will be required to pay 2½ per cent in respect of payments for the three months for no reason that I can understand. I believe that originally the Minister had in his mind administrative convenience and then he justified it on protecting the revenue. On neither ground can any reasonable case be sustained and why the Minister sticks to this date of the 1st August I cannot imagine. Does he justify it on the grounds that postponement to November 1st would seriously impair the revenue? How can the Minister say that? What merchandise is there available that a person intending to anticipate this tax cannot purchase between now and the 31st July? There just is not any. That is so manifest to anyone who has any knowledge of retail distribution that the Minister's allegation that this is designed for the protection of the revenue just does not hold.

When I ask the Minister what category of merchandise does he expect will be purchased he says he will not bother to tell me. That approach to a Parliamentary debate simply reduces it to nothing. There is not any use debating in this House if a responsible Minister will not answer rational questions. If the Minister honestly believes that the revenue would be jeopardised by anticipatory buying between July and August and I make the case that in my experience of the retail trade there is not any branch of the retail trade in which anticipatory buying can be done between 31st August and the 1st November which cannot be done between today and the 31st July—and I think I have demonstrated that clearly—then surely the Minister has an obligation to say: "You have overlooked certain categories where, in fact, large scale purchases would be practicable and which could materially injure the revenue." I submit that at present he has no case. This is simply an arbitrary decision to invite a merchant to pay 2½ per cent himself when the demands are collected for transactions effected between 1st August and 1st November.

With regard to this point about the 1st July, I could not make a date earlier than 1st August because the Bill will not be law——

It could not be law even on the 1st August, assuming you try to steamroll it——

Around that time. That point does not matter very much.

It does matter a whole lot.

Deputy Dillon would convey to the House that if I wanted to be sure that I would stop all this I should have said the 1st July but I could not do that because it will not be law. Any reasonable Deputy will agree that forestalling is more likely to occur just before the Act comes into operation. When a tax is coming along people say: "We should get in so-and-so before the tax," and usually they leave it until the last week before the tax. That is the time when the forestalling would take place.

Can they not forestall for cash?

By paying cash?

They can. We have——

All they have to do is go to the bank and get an overdraft and buy in cash.

We have to stop any loopholes. I know that the Deputies over there will make any case or any argument that occurs to them, but any reasonable Deputy will agree that forestalling is very much more likely to happen in November. By putting in August we are likely to stop more forestalling than if that date was not put in. The Deputy mentioned goods that could be bought in advance like furniture and clothes and fuel and, of course, motor cars. They are quite obvious but even in the case of ordinary weekly supplies Deputies know there can be a certain amount of forestalling. That might mean half a month's revenue. People can buy a lot of their groceries. They can buy at least a fortnight's supply. I do not want any Deputy getting up and saying that you cannot buy bread in advance. I know you cannot but there are certain things you can buy. There are the packaged and tinned goods which can be bought long in advance and it is only sensible, therefore, that some provision should be made to deal with the danger of a movement of that kind. It could amount to a very substantial sum as far as the revenue is concerned. I want to make it clear that I do not see any difference between the administrative difficulty of bringing this in on the 1st August or the 1st November. It is all the same and the only thing I have in mind is how the revenue would be affected.

So that it amounts to this, that the Minister has told us publicly that principles do not matter——

What is the principle?

That he is throwing all principles overboard because he just wants to grab the money.

What principle?

The principle of justice, fair play, the principle of ensuring——

Justice as defined by Fine Gael.

The principle of ensuring that a person will not be put in a position in which he could be put out of business, as this can ensure.

The whole system in a democratic government depends on the officials of the administration being an efficient body and in the type of position we are discussing today nobody will yield to me in my admiration for the job that officials, as revenue collecting persons, do. It is their job and they do it efficiently and conscientiously but our system of democratic Government means that we do not put experts in charge of Departments. We put Ministers because they are supposed to take the responsibility of ensuring that the technical expertise is leavened with the commonsense of an ordinary everyday approach to life.

That is the only reason we have politicians, Deputies or whatever you like to call them in charge of particular Departments rather than the experts, be they economists, collectors, doctors or anything else. It is quite apparent from the Minister's Budget statement that he has failed completely to exercise that control. He did not understand the Budget when it was introduced and he refused to answer questions on the Financial Resolutions largely because he had not exercised the duty put on him of scrutinising the expert opinions that were put before him. Now he says he will not give the House any example of the class of goods which are likely to be anticipated.

He has said that I can anticipate as much as I like, that anyone who has a bank account can anticipate as much as he likes. They can draw out the cash on the last week in October, go to the shop and with that cash completely anticipate the effects of this tax on 1st October. A great many of the people who will do this have got money in current account in the bank and, even if they have to pay 6 per cent, a little mathematical exercise will show that 2½ per cent absolute is more than 6 per cent for a limited period. The way this Bill is framed now means that the person who cannot afford it, the person who has not the money to buy now will have to pay the tax and the person who can afford it and who can get money from the bank on 1st October will be able to anticipate this tax. Can anybody stand up and say that this is justice?

What type of goods are you talking about?

Every single type of goods that I might want. I can buy as much butter as I want and put it in my deep freeze. I can buy as much bread as I want and put it in my deep freeze. This is going to mean that the people who can afford to anticipate this tax can anticipate it and the poor devils who cannot afford to do it are going to be caught. Deputy Booth seems to like that type of tax discrimination.

We are anxious about the national well-being.

Deputy Sweetman is talking about the poor man now.

I represent people of every class and creed in Kildare and I am proud of that. They do not shout me down the way the Minister was shouted down in his constituency last week.

By your organised supporters.

To whom does the Minister refer?

The NFA.

I wonder will Deputy Sweetman tell the House where he will get the money?

I will when I get over there. But Deputy Burke, when playing cards, does not show his hand to the man he is playing against. He is clever enough not to do that although he is a bad politician as far as this tax is concerned and he knows it. This is a bad thing. The person who can afford to anticipate this tax can do so and the person who cannot afford to do it cannot anticipate it. If there was a situation in which it was necessary to say that we were going to hit everybody, rich and poor alike, there would be some reason for it but there is no reason in the manner in which the Minister is introducing it now.

There was a communication this morning from RGDATA which I presume has been sent to every member of the House. This is the organisation which has been responsible for protest marches and for other forms of protest about the turnover tax. It is also an organisation which helps its members, through MNC, to get the benefit of bulk purchases. For that reason they have circularised their members to the effect that the turnover tax will not affect them at all. At the present time it costs £100 to become a member of that organisation.

Are you sure of that?

I am quite certain.

I assure the Deputy he is quite wrong.

If you become a member of the co-operative for the purpose of combined purchasing you have to put down £100 but the ordinary members of RGDATA do not do that.

They do pay it and the price is going to go up to £200. If these people are really interested in the small trader they should reduce that to £50 and make it payable in two half yearly instalments.

That is nonsense. The membership fee is two guineas.

It costs £100 to become a member of this bulk purchasing organisation.

That is not the same.

You are all members over there.

Is there anything wrong in that? It is a perfectly respectable organisation.

There is nothing wrong.

It only costs two guineas to get into RGDATA but to become a member of MNC costs £100 and it is proposed to put that figure up to £200. If RGDATA really wants to help the small grocer they should see that that figure is reduced rather than increased. As well as that, they could also pay some attention to the weights and measures that are given to people who buy ordinary items like bread, tobacco and so forth. I have seen a test carried out in regard to bread and—this is a compliment to Deputy Dillon and he is entitled to it —I found that Deputy Dillon's firm is the only one that actually produces a 2lb. loaf that weighs 2lb.

Is this in order?

I am afraid the Deputy is getting away from the amendments and the section.

The tax will have to be paid by the customer on these articles and it is up to the organised trade to see to it that the purchaser gets value. They would be far better off ensuring that was being done than in making it difficult for small traders. In what way am I being irrelevant?

It is the retrospective effect of the tax we are discussing.

The proposal that the tax in relation to the hiring of goods should be from 1st November and not 1st August? Then I am before my time.

Not before your time at all.

The Deputy may have been straying a little but I would claim your indulgence, Sir, and the indulgence of the House to correct him. He dwelt at some length on criticisms of RGDATA and MNC and said he believed RGDATA fixed an entrance fee beyond the capacity of small grocers to pay. He did not seem to realise that MNC is an organisation started by RGDATA to enable the small grocer to combine with his neighbour to buy goods on terms as advantageous as the largest grocer in the land.

Why does it cost £100 to get into it?

It does not cost £100 to get into it.

It does cost £100.

Very few grocers in Ireland trade on a capital of less than £100. A grocer would need to be in a very small way of business to have a capital of less. If you stand alone in such a position, you can only purchase what a capital of £100 will enable you to purchase. If you combine with 10,000 other grocers, you can then trade in regard to purchases measured on a capital of £1 million, and thus a small grocer can participate in purchases made on that basis and is accordingly put on a competitive footing with the largest grocers in the land. The Deputy is, therefore, labouring under a misapprehension when he says RGDATA are operating on a scale designed to the disadvantage of the small grocer. In fact a number of the large grocers evince a certain amount of resentment at RGDATA for having raised the level of the small grocer to that extent.

Is it not a fact that a small grocer cannot participate unless he pays £100 in cash?

Unless he deposits £100. If he were to deal in the ordinary way, he would be expected to pay cash for all goods because, operating on a capital of £100, his credit would be very limited. He is now transmuted into a person who can buy on the same basis as a grocer who has a capital of £1 million.

He becomes so transmuted only after he pays £100.

Not any more than a person paying into a co-operative would.

It is a question of whether he is obliged to pay £100 or not.

This point has now been sufficiently debated.

I think that required to be clarified. We have now reached the stage where the Minister enjoins on us that to move the date forward from 1st August to 1st November would place the revenue in jeopardy because, he says, there would be such an immense volume of retail purchases made on credit, particularly during the last two weeks of October. On being urged to state the categories of merchandise likely to be purchased in that way, he said he was not prepared to particularise but that there was ample scope for this anticipation. I must point out to him that if there is anybody who wants to anticipate and who can afford to anticipate, who has credit which would enable him to anticipate and is frustrated by the Minister's proposal in the Bill, there is nothing to prevent him anticipating on precisely the same scale for cash. Now we are reduced to the point that a wealthy person can avoid the incidence of tax by buying for cash. We are evidently providing here that a person who ordinarily commands a month's credit with a grocer, draper or hardware merchant is effectively debarred.

My submission is that there is no real danger of a degree of anticipation that would place the revenue in any jeopardy, that the only result of this is to place an unjust burden on merchants who trade for credit. It is fantastic to say that there can be any volume of goods of a character designed to jeopardise the revenue purchased for credit which could not be purchased for cash. The only result of this arrangement will be that individual merchants will suffer crippling losses, that a principle will be established in our taxation code of which it is possible to say: "We have passed legislation obliging shop-keepers side by side to trade on a different basis, one paying tax and the other paying none?"

I am utterly at a loss to understand on what basis of equity, justice or fair legislation this proposal is based. Deputies may shrug their shoulders and say: "We do not give a damn". They should give a damn. We have a solemn obligation to legislate equitably and justly on this and every other kind of matter. It is a bad thing. It is an unhealthy and wrong thing that just because we are too lazy to do what is right we should acquiesce in doing what is wrong.

About half an hour ago I would have got in but I was expecting the Minister to reply to Deputy Dillon. Perhaps he was afraid to.

I was surprised that the Minister for Finance, coming from a rural constituency, refused to reply to a reasonable debate. If a man has the advantage of getting credit from his grocer or from his merchant then anything obtained after 1st August will be taxed when he comes to settle his account three months later. That is very unreasonable and the Minister knows it because in rural Ireland, especially in the Minister's constituency, the majority of the farming community settle their accounts after the barley and the beet harvests. They will be in receipt of credit for the months of August, September and October.

If the Minister and his experts consider there is great danger of a rush in the last fortnight, why not advance the date? I have not had any consultation with my colleagues but I am sure we would be agreeable to that. It was surprising to me to look across the House at the Minister and one might say he was mute of malice: he would not reply to the debate.

As far as forestalling and closing are concerned, I am quite sure that people who have accounts, and big accounts, can buy before 1st August if they want to do so. I do not think that that will account for very much or that it represents any danger to the revenue.

What I consider a sign of the times is how the Minister can treat the House so lightly and actually refuse to reply to the debate; how the Leader of the Government can issue threats against any members of the community who are organised. Bloody noses were threatened for RGDATA. Today, the Minister said the NFA had been organised by Fine Gael to interrupt him in his constituency.

That does not arise on the amendment.

It arose out of it. When the Minister was accused of getting away from justice, he said he knew all about Fine Gael justice.

Justice is here now.

I beg your pardon?

The Minister should be reasonable about this and should accept the amendment. If he cannot do so, I am sure that, by agreement, from 15th October could be taken and that would cover him.

Will I be in order in moving my amendment to amendment No. 32 which has just been circulated?

The amendment has been received at very short notice.

I fully appreciate that. It is a question of the attitude to be adopted on amendment No. 16. If the Chair assures me that when amendment No. 32 comes along I shall be entitled to move this new amendment, then I can take a different course on the amendment now before the House.

The Minister should get proper time to consider amendments.

That would be between now and 8 o'clock tonight. It is a tidier way of doing it: that is all.

If the House has no objection, the Chair will allow it to be moved on short notice.

I do not know what the Minister for Finance would say, but I am sure there is no objection. In an endeavour, once again, to show how reasonable the Government can be in meeting the wishes of the Opposition—

In view of that, we shall transfer our argument.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendments Nos. 17 and 18 not moved.

I move amendment No. 19:

In subsection (1), page 29, lines 33 to 35, to delete paragraph (a) (vii).

There are clubs or organisations throughout the country which run draws. In certain instances, they apply for a licence to the district justice. Some of these draws are non-stop weekly draws. I understand that the promoters are paid a commission on the money collected. My reading of this is that the 2½ per cent tax would be payable on the gross takings. These non-stop draws come under Section 28 of the Gaming and Lotteries Act. A licence is granted annually by the district justice, for which the solicitor is paid four guineas. Quite a lot of these draws are run for charity and for parochial purposes such as schools, churches and so on. If the gross takings are taxed it will cause quite a hardship because, in addition, out of every shilling collected, in some cases, 10 per cent is paid to the collector. There is no personal gain and the money goes to charities of various kinds. It would certainly be a great hardship if these words were not deleted. It has been mentioned that you can secure from the superintendent of the Garda a licence for every ten to 14 days. I am open to correction on that. The trouble with a weekly draw is that they could not plan ahead if they had to apply for a licence every 14 days. I also had in mind pongo, which is run on the same basis. These clubs have to apply for a licence in that case also. I would ask the Minister to consider deleting these words and leaving the position as heretofore: that there would be no turnover tax on any of these organisations.

I appreciate the points made by the Deputy but a turnover tax of this kind has to be very general in its application, if it is to be effective. I do not see that a good case can be made for exempting lotteries any more than any other activity. Everyone must make his contribution.

The House may not know that in these kinds of activities, particularly funds collected in this manner for charitable purposes, the net return for the objective is generally in the region of 4 or 5 per cent by the time the expenses of promoting the draw are paid off. The subscriptions are very small, 6d. or 1/- a week. It obviously cannot be levied on the people who subscribe. Their subscriptions are generally given on a charitable basis and they say goodbye to their 6d. or 1/- when they give it to the collector. It is very important for the purposes for which these draws are run that this source of revenue should not be closed. That will be done if the promoters are compelled to bear this tax themselves. It is a tax which cannot be passed on. It is very desirable that this loophole should be allowed.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 20:

In subsection (1) (a) (ix), to add at the end ", other than those promoting athletic games or sports."

I think it is possible that amendment No. 22, in the name of the Minister, covers everything this amendment covers. If that is the case, then there is no necessity for me to pursue my amendment. The difference there appears to be, however, is that the Minister has mentioned "sporting events" and I have mentioned "athletic games and sport". My wording is, of course, taken to follow Section 2 of the Bill, which deals with income tax as it was originally introduced at the time such amendment was handed in.

It seems to me that there would be an impossible situation for many amateur football associations, for example, if they had to pay two and a half per cent on their gate money. Their margin of profit is not as much as that, when one considers what many of these bodies have to pay for hiring grounds and for the expenses of the promotion of the individual match. It seems to me, therefore, that whatever about the tax as such, which we dislike, admissions of that sort are not the type of admissions that should be made the subject of the levy.

No; I can assure the Deputy that the amendment I am putting in exempts all sports and games as outlined in Section 2. That was my decision to the draftsman and he gave it to me in that form.

Will the Minister say whether or not there was a genuine oversight on the part of the drafting people or whether the Minister had second thoughts?

Deputies are aware there are always amendments to Bills, whether you would call them second thoughts or not. Usually they arise out of a review of the Bill.

The reason I am asking is that on the Second Stage discussion I raised the point that it appeared that all sporting activities, including the GAA, for whom we profess great respect, were to be taxed for the first time. Can I take it the Minister has finally decided they are being exempted?

Perhaps I could explain it this way. On reviewing the exemptions put into the Bill in regard to the amount collected, I was rather convinced we would actually be collecting only on a small number of events such as Croke Park and Lans-downe Road. I thought it was not worthwhile.

Good for you.

This does not apply to race courses?

No, not racing—the same as Section 2.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 21:

Before subsection (3), to insert a new subsection as follows:

"(3) For the purpose of subsection (1) of this section, the moneys received in respect of the activities mentioned in (a) (iv) (v) (vi) (vii) and (viii) shall not include the aggregate of the sums of money which by the terms of the transaction are returnable to the person who

(a) enters into a bet with the holder of a bookmaker's licence,

(b) stakes money by means of a totalisator,

(c) stakes money with the holder of a licence under Part III of the Gaming and Lotteries Act, 1956,

(d) wins a prize in a lottery,

(e) wins a prize in a crossword puzzle competition or other competition or contest promoted through the medium of newspapers or publications."

The purpose of this amendment is to eliminate from the turnover tax betting with a bookmaker on a race course or totalisator bets on the course. In moving it, I think it is necessary to say a few words about the importance of the bloodstock industry to the country and the part racing plays in that industry. I do so because some people may imagine that neither betting nor racing need be considered essentials in the same way as the tax affects essentials such as food, fuel and clothing. That is only a superficial consideration of the problem, and when this matter is considered in the light of all the facts, it will be recognised that the bloodstock industry is most valuable to the country and provides not only a valuable export trade but also considerable employment. When the manner in which that employment is given is considered, it will be seen that it is a most valuable kind of employment.

Deputies on all sides have frequently spoken of the encouragement given under different Governments to industrial employment and expansion. Very large sums of money have been invested in industry and the State has directly encouraged industrial development by tax remissions on exports, by grants and so on, all designed to provide not only exports but employment and so strengthen the country's industrial arm and facilitating and encouraging agriculture also. These benefits and financial arrangements have been welcomed and recognised as a direct means of furthering economic expansion but it is true that, taken in the aggregate, that type of encouragement costs the State a good deal and while benefits have resulted, it involves considerable expenditure.

In the case of the bloodstock industry, no such State expenditure is involved. In fact, while it is to a considerable extent regarded as a rich man's business, that is only part of the picture. In the main, the industry is widespread and a great many small owners and breeders depend on it for a livelihood. The fact that it has been possible to attract wealthy persons from abroad to establish or acquire studs here indicates the confidence these people have in the quality and standard of Irish bloodstock and their desire to own or operate studs here. Apart from the wealthy owners, in the main, the industry is maintained by individual breeders and owners in almost every county and certainly in the majority of counties and employment is provided at all levels throughout the country.

For that reason, the obvious benefit to the community of maintaining the industry in a prosperous and expanding position needs no emphasis. Recently the success of the measures taken to assist racing has attracted great attention at home and abroad, and since the establishment of the Racing Board and the provision of funds through powers granted to the Board to make a levy on bets with bookmakers or on the totalisator, a very considerable increase in stake money became possible. That, in turn, resulted in a recent development in Britain, one which was advocated many years ago by the late Aga Khan who recognised the advantages it had for racing here and who urged in articles and letters and in speeches to newspapers that the same thing should be done in Britain, a levy on bets.

As a result of the consideration given the matter there, a levy is now operating in Britain and the first full year's operation of the levy has, I think, just been completed. It is known that the estimated revenue from the levy in Britain will be £3 million a year. It will be administered by a statutory board and used for purposes similar to the purposes for which it is used here.

A sum of £3 million is a very considerable sum and shows the extent to which the Irish racing and bloodstock industry will have to compete with funds made available in Britain through the British Racing Board and which will in future be used to step up considerably the stakes provided there. Recently, in addition to stake money provided from the levy here, there have been notable cases of races sponsored by industrial concerns. The most notable example this year and last was the Irish Sweeps Derby at the Curragh. In addition, Messrs. Guinness, Messrs. Power and Messrs. Jameson and many other firms, apart from the brewing and distilling trade, such as the tobacco companies, have sponsored races and provided the entire stake or part of it. That has been done because executives recognised that despite the considerable increase in stakes provided by the Racing Board, something more was necessary.

Undoubtedly, some of the sponsoring firms have realised the publicity advantages attached to the sponsorship but the prime motive behind their activity was to assist racing. In many cases, without the sponsored races, meetings would have suffered considerably and the fact that a particular meeting or race is sponsored has considerably added to the attractiveness of the meeting and has had the added advantage of attracting, in a number of cases, horses from outside the country to compete here. The total money which is provided by the Racing Board for stakes amounts in round figures to £300,000. That is made up, in the main, of two figures: one of £240,000 or £250,000 in respect of moneys provided for stakes and a sum of about £50,000 for the carriage of horses to race meetings. In addition, there are some smaller sums in respect of measures taken to ensure that no doping is carried on and that horses are tested but those are the main figures, £250,000 and £50,000.

Those who are familiar with the economics of horse racing will appreciate that the cost of transport is a very considerable one and, like other costs, has risen considerably over the years. The reason I put down this amendment is that I believe it is important that we should maintain the industry at the present high level. In fact, with the very substantial levy now available in Britain, it will be very difficult to compete because for the future we shall be competing with British racing on a different basis. They will have in Britain for the future a vast sum from the racecourse levy which was not available in the past. Undoubtedly costs are much higher in Britain but there they have recognised that if the prestige of British racing was to be maintained races like the Derby would have to be increased very considerably in value, and from next year as the result of the levy, the Derby will be worth a sum considerably in excess of what it has been worth in recent years. That is not only to offset the attraction of the Irish Derby with its enhanced value as a result of being sponsored by the Hospitals Trust but also to counteract the very considerable sums that can be won in races on the Continent and particularly in France.

The purpose of this amendment, therefore, is to ensure that the sums which have been available in the past will be available in the future for the encouragement and expansion of the racing industry. It is hardly necessary to say that racing is the shop window of the bloodstock industry and it is the principal way in which the horses bred here have their merits brought to the notice of potential customers. Those that are sold for export as yearlings or young horses are raised elsewhere but in order to maintain that valuable export trade, it is essential that racing here should attract and cater for the very highest standard of breeding and bloodstock generally.

There is a very real difference between money wagered on betting and money spent on goods and affected by the turnover tax. It is important to stress to the House the actual difference. A bookmaker's turnover and the totalisator turnover differ entirely from the turnover of a grocer, a draper or any other business person and I hope by an example or two to indicate the reason for that. I hope to prove that the sum wagered on a racecourse is turned over a number of times.

Take the example of a person who at a racemeeting starts with a sum of £20. He places £5 at 4 to 1 on the winner of the first race and he wins £20. The turnover is £5. On the second race he puts on £10 at 6 to 4 and he wins £15. The turnover there is £10. In the third race, he puts £20 on the favourite and he loses. There is a loss of £20. On the fourth race, he has £10 on at 2 to 1 and he wins £20. He is getting more courage and on the fifth race, he bets £50 to win £40 on a certainty and it loses, so he loses £50. In the sixth race, he puts £5 on at 4 to 1 and he loses. The sum he wins for the total of six bets is £55. He loses £75 and the total turnover is £100. Thus to complete the example, he loses his £20 but the turnover tax would have been payable on the £100. If, on the other hand, he spent the £20 on a suit of clothing the turnover tax would be payable only on the £20.

My contention is that it is not equitable to deal with a bookmaker's turnover or the turnover of the totalisator in the same way as that of a draper, grocer or some other retail trader where the turnover is paid on one particular transaction. In order to equate the two, it is necessary that the bookmaker's turnover or the turnover in respect of the tote betting should be defined as meaning the amount spent on gaming or gambling just as the amount spent in a grocer's or a draper's shop is the amount spent on such goods.

The effect of this amendment can be shown by that example. What I want the Minister to consider, first, is that instead of the Racing Board paying the 2½ per cent on the tote turover of £2,700,000, which is approximately the sum which is wagered on the totalisator, they should pay only on a sum of £270,000 which is the sum retained by the totalisator out of the sum wagered. On the other hand, in the case of money wagered with the bookmakers, instead of a sum of, say, £60,000 or £70,000, they should pay between £6,000 and £7,000.

I also included in this amendment the question of pools because I believe a number of worthwhile charities are involved. It is not necessary to mention the well-known cases but there are a number of well-known pools run for hospitals and other charitable purposes and there again these pools would come within this provision. There is an equally strong case for granting exemptions to them. The purpose of this amendment, as I have said, is to confine the turnover tax to the profit taken by the Racing Board in respect of bets placed with the tote and to the profit on course bets placed with bookmakers. That would be a reasonable approach to it. It would provide the Minister with a fair return and at the same time, it would allow this industry, which is doing well but which is not without serious problems and which has done well up to the present, but now faces an entirely different situation, sums comparable with the very considerable sums which will be placed by the British Racing Control Board to the advantage of British racing and breeding, and which were not there up to this year, or up to a portion of last year, but which will be there in future, sums vastly in excess of anything that could be contemplated here. That involves racing and bloodstock breeding in a challenge it has not had to meet in the past. It involves it in future problems incomparably greater than anything it has met with in the past.

In the main the sum wagered has remained static. Despite increases in wages, salaries and money values, the sums wagered have remained largely static. Indeed, for a very considerable portion of last year the sum taken by the tote at race meetings was down on the previous year. Towards the end of the year, and in the early part of this year, bets made a recovery, but it is a recovery to meet rising costs and rising charges. As I say, the sum provided here in respect of stakes and in respect of the carriage of horses is substantially less than that which will be available in future in Great Britain.

I believe this is a most valuable industry. Up to the present it has cost the State nothing. We have designed measures to help industry and agriculture, with a view to attracting outsiders as well as inducing our own people to expand and develop. This particular industry has attracted outsiders without any comparable State investment. It has also attracted some few of our own people, who have put considerable sums into it, but, in the main, it is an industry which depends on the small man and on the small breeder. It has spread widely throughout the country and gives good male employment. It has spread throughout every province and into practically every county. It is for that reason I believe we should endeavour to expand it, if not improve it.

I believe the proposal enshrined in the Bill to impose a turnover tax on the industry will seriously affect the efficiency and economy of the industry. It is for these reasons then I move this amendment to confine the turnover tax to the sum actually won or retained by the Racing Board both in respect of bets placed on the totalisator and in respect of course bets placed with the bookmaker.

While I agree with everything Deputy Cosgrave has said about the bloodstock industry, I should point out that he omitted to mention a much more important industry to my way of thinking. I refer to the greyhound industry. This industry is recognised as the poor man's sport and in my province practically every farmer and cottier keeps a greyhound with the intention of either selling the dog or winning a race with him.

This amendment would apply to the greyhound industry as well.

I just want to put before the Minister the importance of the industry. This is an industry employing large numbers of men and boys on the tracks and in the trainer's quarters. With regard to the industry generally, a Board has been set up within the past few years on lines similar to the much longer-established Racing Board set up for the benefit of the bloodstock industry. While some may not agree with everything that is done by Bord na gCon, the fact remains that a good deal has been done to improve the greyhound industry. In time, with perhaps some changes, bigger and better things may be done for the industry.

I have been directly concerned with the greyhound industry for over thirty years. I know something about it. The employment given is larger in content than that provided by the bloodstock industry. Both are, of course, self-supporting and operate independently, without any help from the Government or anyone else. On average, there are four greyhound race meetings every night of the week, except Sunday, in the country. Large numbers are employed, bookmakers' clerks, and so on. There is already a tax of ten per cent. If this turnover tax is added on that will mean a tax of 12½ per cent. For every £ invested 2/6 will be mulcted at once for the Exchequer or the totalisator, as the case may be. For the sake of illustration, suppose a man wagers a bet of £1 on A and credits £2 off that on to B, the tax charged will be 7/6. The bet will be interpreted by the Revenue people as a £3 bet whereas in actual fact only £1 will be invested.

Now this kind of imposition can lead to all kinds of confusion. Eventually it will lead to evasion. It may be argued that a tax on betting does not fall within the same category as a tax on fuel, food and clothing, but betting has become a part of our life and, if this additional tax is imposed, it will, I maintain, mean the closing down of a large number of small bookmakers, who are barely existing today, engaged in both the horseracing and the greyhound racing industries. There is no other way out of it. They will have to close down and get out, because they cannot afford to carry this 2½ per cent tax on top of the burden they are already carrying.

I know representations have been made to the Minister in connection with this Bill on different aspects, and by different people, but I would appeal to him to consider some way of exempting this matter. Deputy Cosgrave made a good suggestion when he said that the tax should be on the original amount. Otherwise it will have a snowballing effect and 50 per cent will be taken out of the amount the people originally had in their pockets. It is different from the woman who goes into a shop with the week's wages and pays 6d. in the £. The amount taken out of betting has been falling and will fall further, and as a result bookmakers and their clerks and employees will have to get out of business. I appeal to the Minister, in view of his own experience and the experience of the Revenue Commissioners, to consider some approach on the lines suggested by Deputy Cosgrave.

The turnover tax is being imposed by the Minister on a permanent basis. It is, therefore, entirely different from taxation which is imposed as an emergency measure for the purpose of damping down expenditure and damping down inflation. I am fully aware of the fact that no one likes being made part of a system of damping down inflation. They would not be human if they did. It was necessary that inflation should be damped down in 1956 and I was not going to shrink from that task even though it might be unpopular. That was a purely temporary measure and I stated that on many occasions.

This is a different situation. This is a permanent tax, and it is entirely wrong in relation to permanent legislation that these two branches of a vital industry in rural Ireland should be penalised. This is the only way for the horseracing industry, the greyhound racing industry or the coursing industry to sell their wares.

When I saw this amendment I asked for an interpretation because I found it hard to follow. I do not think the interpretation I got was what Deputy Cosgrave has in mind. The use of the word "returnable" would suggest that a person should not be taxed on his bet but only on his winnings. In other words, if he bets £1 on a four to one winner he gets back £5 and he should pay tax on the £4 and not the £5. I do not think that is what Deputy Cosgrave has in mind and, therefore, I will leave it. The arrangement at the moment is that the bookmaker is taxed on the total turnover exactly as he will be under this turnover tax. As the excise tax is there, I think it would be logical to have the turnover tax on the same basis.

I was very interested in another point made by Deputy Cosgrave when he suggested that it might have an adverse effect on the breeding of horses and dogs. We must give very serious consideration to that matter. Deputy Cosgrave was worried that the Racing Board might find themselves adversely affected by this tax, first on the tote, and secondly on course betting, because it might have the effect of reducing course betting, or diverting course betting from Irish bookmakers to another place.

The Racing Board sent me a memo before this tax was mentioned publicly pointing out their position and referring especially to the very big income of the racing authorities in England owing to the levy. I studied that memo and when this proposal in regard to the turnover tax came along I thought it was better not to discuss this matter with the Racing Board until we had come to a final decision in regard to a turnover tax on racing. I intend to meet members of the Racing Board and Bord na gCon and if they convince me that this tax would have an adverse effect I shall be very sympathetic towards them.

I find it hard to agree to remit the turnover tax on betting, lotteries, and so on because, as I have already said in another connection, I am convinced this tax will not be a success unless it applies all around. We have made certain exceptions, but it would be difficult to justify making an exception for betting. Deputy Cosgrave made a very interesting suggestion in regard to the tote when he said that the tax should be put on the final receipts of the tote. That suggestion is well worth consideration, but I do not know where we would stand in regard to bookmakers. It would be very difficult to assess what the residue in the bookmakers' hands might be. We could easily find out what it is in the tote. Of course, the tote is used only by the Racing Board and Bord na gCon and, therefore, it would be just as easy to go light on them with this tax rather than to go heavy on them and have to subsidise them subsequently to help them over their difficulties.

I am prepared to consider the point made by Deputy Cosgrave in regard to the tote, but I think it would be difficult to apply the same principle to the bookmakers. I should say, perhaps, that this will require some investigation and some discussions, and I am afraid it would be impossible to promise to have anything ready for Report Stage. Deputies will realise that in this Bill the Minister has power to make an Order altering the tax downwards, and not upwards. I can undertake to have this matter very thoroughly examined and to have discussions with the two bodies concerned. If I can find a ready way of going easy on them, I would be prepared to make it right afterwards by order.

I should like to say how much I appreciate the Minister's approach to this matter. The difficulty he sees about the bookmakers could probably be resolved because, as I understand it, the Racing Board are responsible for the levy from the bookmakers as well as the levy on the tote. I imagine the returns which are furnished both by the bookmakers to the Racing Board, and by the Racing Board to the Revenue Commissioners will clarify any difficulty which may exist because the returns in respect of tote bets and course bets with bookmakers are made by the Racing Board. However, these technical details can best be discussed between the Minister and the Board. I appreciate the Minister's interest in the matter. Because of the Minister's undertaking I ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 22:

In subsection (5), page 30, line 16, to delete "State." and substitute "State or on moneys received in respect of admissions to sporting events or in respect of the hiring of premises for the purpose of sporting events."

We have discussed this already, more or less by implication anyway, on Deputy Sweetman's amendment. As I said, the intention here is to limit the turnover tax in all cases where income tax is limited under Section 2.

Would the Minister explain why he has used a different phrase here from the phrase used in Section 2?

I must confess I did not examine the draft but my instructions were to put it on exactly the same footing as regards income tax and turnover tax. I am told we are bringing in a further amendment to make that clear.

I was not quite as dense as I thought I was.

Amendment agreed to.
Question proposed: "That Section 46, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

This section is the charging section for the new tax and it is around this section that there will be a main discussion on that tax. There are, of course, other sections and other amendments which will deal with individual aspects, such as the retrospective one we have been discussing partly this morning and which will come up again for discussion under Section 52; the inclusion of foodstuffs under amendment No. 59 which I have put down with Deputy Cosgrave, and which of course will include batch bread about which we have read in the newspapers. So far as the Act and the tax are concerned, Section 46 is the operative section. It provides that the tax will be called a turnover tax.

I want to raise now, as I did before, my mystification as to why, during the course of the progress of this Bill, the name was changed from retail tax to turnover tax. When it was being considered by the Commission on Income Taxation in their Third Report, in Chapter IV, page 29 and thereafter, it was indicated that they were considering a purchase tax perhaps imposed at the wholesale level or retail taxes imposed at the retail sales level. When we were discussing this on the income tax section yesterday, I reminded Deputies that the commission, when they were recommending either a purchase or sales tax, had done so on the clear understanding that it was to be in substitution for other taxation. Of course, the introduction of this tax now in its present form is not in substitution for anything. It is an additional tax imposed as an addition to the various taxes already collected in what most people feel is an already overtaxed community It is a burden which is to be added, if the Minister has his way, to the already excessive burden of taxation on our people.

There have been many discussions in relation to the best form of expenditure, purchase, retail, manufactures, added value, wholesale and turnover taxes. Many of them are multi-stage in their application; many of them are single stage, but they have all had this one universal factor, that wherever they have been introduced they have always been introduced at a small level and that percentage has been stepped up afterwards. That of course is the intention here. That of course is the reason why certain theoretical economists regard this as an excellent tax because they say it will be so easy to step it up. Therefore, when we are considering this tax of 2½ per cent, we are considering that as a tax in the context not of a final one-fortieth but in the context of its being the thin end of the wedge which will be utilised at a later stage for the purpose of being increased and getting further exactions.

That has been the pattern everywhere and we have had references already in this House to the fact that in New York at present there is a campaign going on because a retail tax is being increased from three to four per cent. I have no doubt whatever that if this proposal succeeds— and pray Heaven it will not—the same thing will operate here. It is being said also that the pattern being set for this tax has been the operation of it in Sweden, Norway, in Canada, as well as in certain States in the United States of America. At paragraph 3 of the Appendix to the Commission's Third Report, it was referred to:

A single stage tax charged at the retail level is operated in France, Norway, and Sweden as well as by various local authorities in the United States and Canada.

I understand that since that time France has abandoned that form of taxation and has gone over to what is now known as the added value tax instead. I have before me a publication entitled Taxation in Canada which is published by the Bank of Montreal and which, to all intents and purposes, is official. It is the only explanation that I have been able to obtain anywhere in the English language of the tax as it operates in any of the countries to which reference has been made by the Commission or by the Government in the White Paper to which I refer. It is a most significant thing that in that Canadian example, I find, on Page 33 of this booklet, which was published in 1959, the statement: “Amongst the articles exempt from the tax are practically all foodstuffs, the principal materials for building and machinery and materials used in buses.” Practically all foodstuffs are exempt in Canada but when the Minister and the Government were asked to give examples, no mention was made of that.

This tax was mentioned in the Third Report of the Commission on Income Taxation as a means of switching taxation from one section of the community to another. It may be that the fact that it was passed by only one vote in that Commission may mean that the discussion on it was as evenly divided as the final voting. Certain people had, prior to that, been attracted to a form of expenditure taxation promoted by an economist called Caldor, in the hope that such an expenditure tax could be substituted everywhere for income tax as such. The manner in which Mr. Caldor explained his tax was beautiful in theory. In theory, it meant that everybody was going to pay tax according to his means but, when it came to seeing how that was to be done, it would have meant in our circumstances that we would have to augment by ten times the number of officials necessary to implement his beautiful theoretical scheme and apply it to practical Irish conditions. It was clear at a very early stage that any such scheme would have to be thrown overboard.

Here in this tax we see something of the same theorising. We see a scheme practical to operate in countries that have a decimal coinage being introduced into one where there is no such coinage and one in which the only suggestion made to meet the circumstances was that we should strike more farthings and even create a half farthing. It is quite impossible in the circumstances of our coinage to operate administratively a system that can be operated in countries where there is a currency based on percentages and where it is possible to go as low as one per cent of the normal unit. Norway, Sweden, Canada, America—I do not know about Finland or Turkey —these four are always quoted here as examples of this tax and they all operate a decimal system of coinage.

I do not propose at this stage to enter into any very long discussion as to whether the system of taxation proposed is regressive as such as I think it is patent to everyone that any system of taxation of this kind must, of its essence, be regressive. It must be regressive because it transfers burdens from those who can afford to carry them to those who can least afford to carry them. If there were in this section a proposal to exempt the basic articles upon which people have to depend for their existence, then there might be some—I stress "some"— argument made against the claim that the tax is regressive. In its present form, it is quite undeniable that this is bound to be a regressive tax and there has not been any serious attempt by the Government to deny such a contention.

I put down a question on 2nd July, 1963, asking the Minister for Finance what the effect would be of imposing a 2½ per cent tax on certain items. I did that because I want to make it clear that the method by which the Minister for Finance announced this tax in his Budget Statement was politically dishonest. I admit that he was facilitated in that by a lack of understanding of his proposals at that time. I suggest to the House that he was deliberately trying to create that misunderstanding, that the whole purpose of the manner of the introduction of this tax was to create a smokescreen, to create confusion. One member of the Government was saying that the shopkeepers were to pay the tax and another member of the Government was saying that the consumer would have to pay it.

When the Minister was asked for the precise effect of the tax on individual items, he refused to give that information. The whole purpose of the manner in which the tax was introduced at that time was to try to slide it through without its being realised by either shopkeeper or consumer where it was to be borne. It is quite clear from the Budget as proposed this year that, in spite of what the newspapers said to the contrary, there will be extra taxation on tobacco, spirits, beer and petrol. In fact by this method, the Budget has imposed an additional £2 million on these commodities.

The Minister refused to answer me earlier when I asked him a question about the way the new tax would affect the individual commodities, and I was forced to ask the question in another way. I found then, on the assumption that consumption remained static in 1963/64 as compared with the last financial year, that the effect of this tax was to add £817,000 to the tax on tobacco—a tax on a tax, since in addition to the existing tax on the material itself, there will be this new tax.

This new tax on the tax on wine will yield an additional £12,000, on spirits, £123,000, on beer, £273,000. On the boxes of matches, from each of which the Tánaiste advised the manufacturers to extract one match to protect themselves against the turnover tax, the additional tax on the tax will amount to £11,000. There will be an additional tax on tax on motor vehicles amounting to £87,000, an additional tax of £12,000 on motor tyres, £350,000 on the tax on petrol, despite what we have heard on many occasions from members of the Fianna Fáil Party to the effect that higher taxes on petrol increase distribution costs and in fact the cost of living generally. This turnover tax means a new tax on the tax on hydrocarbon oils amounting to £62,000. Assuming my arithmetic is correct, as I think it is, this tax imposes a new impost on those already taxed commodities of £1,829,000.

Apart from that, there is, in addition, the existing tax on all these commodities. It is quite clear, therefore, that under these main tax headings, a sum of at least £2 million will be involved out of the £10 million to which the Minister has referred as being the apparent yield of this turnover tax, as far as he can gauge at this stage. From discussions throughout the country on this tax, it is clear that because of the absence of an adequate system of currency to deal with it, it is bound to mean further penalties and difficulties for the ordinary retail grocery shops, while being comparatively easy for the supermarkets.

When a housewife goes round a supermarket, puts the commodities in her basket and arrives at the end of the line, it is a matter of comparative simplicity for the cashier to strike another key on the cash register-cum-adding machine. It is an entirely different matter, however, for the small shopkeeper on whose premises only one thing is being bought, where in many cases purchases are made daily rather than bi-weekly or weekly. The effect of this tax will be to place an additional burden on every article involved in the whole gamut of living costs. It will have the effect of increasing the cost of living, from the loaf of bread, the lb. of butter, the lb. of sugar, all the way up to the fur coat, to take an extreme example. I cannot for the life of me see any justification for any tax that imposes the same rate on the loaf of bread as on the fur coat.

Caviare.

I cannot see where the justice or the equity comes in, if both are to be subject to the same rate of taxation. The purpose of creating a broad base to our taxation is entirely different from creating an inequity, an injustice, by enabling the revenue to be collected at exactly the same rate on the necessaries of life as on luxuries or semi-luxuries. It is quite nonsensical for the Minister, the Taoiseach or anybody else to suggest that the protests that have arisen throughout the country in relation to this tax have been generated by a political Party, be it Fine Gael, Labour or any other Party. Speaking for my county, I know prominent members of Fianna Fáil have been just as vehement and just as vocal as the members of the Fine Gael Party. It is not a question of politics, and in fact many people who are prominently associated with this Party have deliberately kept away from meetings in connection with this tax to ensure that their presence could not in any way be misrepresented. I can only speak for my own county, but I am told that in other counties the same thing applies. In Monasterevan, the leading objector to this tax is a man who was on the Kildare County Council for longer than I can remember for Fianna Fáil. In Newbridge, the chairman of the organisation there is the chairman of Fianna Fáil. In Athy, one of the principal people organising the protest in south Kildare is a Fianna Fáil member of the Athy urban council.

When one knows these things and when one sees lists in the papers of the people who are agitating in every town in Ireland and when one goes walking down the street and sees posters in a shop window and knows the way the people in that shop perpetually vote it is nonsense to suggest that the protests that have been held are in any shape or kind organised, sponsored or channelled by a political party: they are not. They are protests by the people concerned who know it will be quite impossible for them to work this tax as it was originally proposed; who know it will mean for many of them a harshening and worsening of their conditions and who know they will be turned into unpaid tax collectors by the Minister as a result of his proposals.

We have all seen, over the years, the effect of PAYE in so far as it has meant that employers of all sorts have been turned into unpaid tax collectors to do the work that should be done by the Revenue Department. However, it was essential that they should undertake that task because otherwise there was the danger that employees would get themselves into a mess and a muddle by reason of its being impossible to have their tax collected and deducted as they were given their pay packets and that they would find themselves in an impossible situation. It was essential because, to a large degree, directions were being issued by the Revenue Commissioners under Section 23 by which employers were being directed to collect arrears from employees.

But this, coming on top of that imposition, adds to the burden the shopkeeper already carries of providing the machinery necessary for operating PAYE. When one adds to that the impossibility of adding this 2½ per cent tax to individual items, then one can easily see that it did not require any political considerations to organise these people into making a protest when their ordinary way of life appeared to be threatened.

I still am completely unable to see how this proposal by the Minister can possibly work—how, for example, it will be possible to collect turnover tax on a bottle of milk. It is all right if you have a credit account. At the end of the month, it is possible to make the calculations, but on the individual purchase of a bottle of milk, or of two or three bottles of milk, I cannot for the life of me see how the tax can be paid without a decimal coinage. I am leaving aside the point that the price of milk is statutorily fixed by regulation in the Dublin area. Presumably, if it were physically possible to deal with the matter by any conceivable means, another statutory order could be made but I cannot see how it can be done.

I cannot see how the turnover tax will operate in relation to the box of matches unless one adopts the measure which the Tánaiste so brightly suggested, namely, that every retailer should take one match out of each box and that when he has 40 matches he then has another box of matches which he can sell. I cannot see where the retailer will get the new container for the 40 matches which he will gather.

That would carry 2½ per cent also.

You go on from one impossibility to another. Regardless of where one goes, you will find exactly the same thing. It just will not be workable at the retail level in the way the Minister so calmly and so blandly suggested.

I have read, as I am sure other Deputies have probably read, articles in relation to this tax in various papers—from the RGDATA Review to other types of trade journals as well as the main columns of our newspapers. It is a fact that in the past few weeks it has come to be realised that in the majority of cases, the bigger cases, the consumer will have to pay and it is inevitable. Taking groceries, for example, it is clear to everyone that there is not the profit available to enable the trader to absorb the tax.

I believe that at an early stage the Minister thought that by saying nothing he would be able to force retailers partly, if not entirely, to absorb the payments. But it is not absorbable on profits at the level at which they are, particularly in the smaller concerns, in Ireland. It will have the effect that concerns who make small sales of small items will gradually be pushed out of business and that the larger supermarkets and emporiums will gradually take over because of the greater ease of collection and, in addition, because of some of the other methods and manner in which our general executive life is oppressing the small trader.

Everyone going through the country must be impressed by the fact that the smaller towns and villages of rural Ireland are finding the position more difficult than the big cities. Of its essence, this tax must hit the smaller town and village shops harder than those in the bigger cities and particularly in the better class areas of the bigger cities. It is a tax which appears to me to be unworkable, to be unjust in its incidence and unfair in its operation. It is a tax which has been greeted by the whole country as being quite inappropriate to our Irish way of life. It has meant that the Government are tottering and carrying on like a punch-drunk boxer, only in his case the bell saves him whereas in this case the bell is going to mean the end of the Government.

I am not really so pessimistic about the prospects of the Government as Deputy Sweetman.

On a point of order, Sir, there is a notification on the sheet of amendments of opposition to the section by members of the Labour Party. I thought the Leader of the Labour Party would be entitled to speak after the Leader of Fine Gael?

It is usual to call speakers from the different Parties.

I should like to return to the subject which I mentioned rather irrelevantly this morning, that is, the organisation sponsored by RGDATA called MNC, membership of which is available at a cost of £100. It has been announced to the members of this organisation that the entire 2½ per cent will be absorbed. As a result, it will not be necessary for a grocer who is a member to put up the prices of any of the essential commodities which have been mentioned ad nauseam by Deputy Sweetman and his colleagues over the past two months.

The difficulty that will arise will be for the small trader, about whom Mr. Keogh is supposed to be so concerned, who cannot afford to lodge £100. Theoretically, this is supposed to be a deposit, but he must leave it with the co-op so long as he enjoys the benefits of membership. I understand it is now proposed to be increased to £200. I made the point this morning, and I make it again, that if the membership of that organisation were to be made easier, then the small trader would in fact be protected. As Deputy Dillon rightly pointed out, he would be protected by virtue of the strength of the co-op as a unit as distinct from the strength of the small trader as an individual. If this organisation is able to absorb the entire 2½ per cent tax on grocery items, then the man-in-the-street will not have to pay a halfpenny more for any of them. The turnover tax, therefore, will not affect these essential items as far as purchases from any of these unit shops are concerned. What I have suggested is that membership should be made easier for these people and not more difficult. If RGDATA are sincere in their desire to help them, they can reduce the cost to small traders of joining in a co-operative big enough to absorb the tax and so protect not merely the customer but also the small retail trader himself.

The misconceptions that have arisen amongst other traders I find extremely difficult to understand. Some publicans, for instance, seem to have the most violent objection to the tax. I agree with Deputy Sweetman when he says that not all of these people are supporters of the Fine Gael Party. I agree that many of them are supporters of Fianna Fáil. But I do not for a moment believe they understand why they are objecting. I do not for a moment believe they are not victims, conscious or unconscious, of propaganda put out by Fine Gael over the past two or three months.

The plain fact is that if the £11 million needed by the Government to balance their books is not forthcoming from a turnover tax or some other form of tax, we must go back to the old horses and flog them again—cigarettes, beer, spirits and petrol. I have asked some of these publicans—and failed to receive an answer from them—how they would feel if £11 million was asked of them. They cannot tell me the objection they have to a tax which at most could put a penny on a glass of brandy, when under the old system the half-one of brandy would probably cost from 3/6d. to 4/-. The price of cigarettes would have to go to 4/3d. or 4/6d. and the price of petrol to 6/-, with consequent enormous dislocation to all the people directly or indirectly involved in these businesses.

I wish to make the position clear in regard to essential grocery items, that neither the trader nor the customer fortunate enough to be a member of certain co-ops will in any way be affected as a result of the imposition of this tax. That is the answer to those who are crying crocodile tears about the effect of the tax on the essential items the poor must buy.

I notice that the provision made for the protection of these people by way of increased social welfare benefits is never mentioned at all. The fact pointed out by the Minister replying to the Budget debate that 47½ per cent of the people of the entire country are either as well off or better off as a result of this Budget than before is conveniently mislaid by Fine Gael and other opponents of the turnover tax. Deputy Sweetman readily admitted today that he and his Party are not prepared to show their hand. They say it is time enough to disclose their hand when they have won the pool. Twice in the history of Fine Gael and this country, they were returned to government on the basis of decrying the measures taken by Fianna Fáil to keep our economy going. Twice they were a failure because it was discovered that in fact they had no hand to show.

If they get into government, Fine Gael are committed to the abolition of the turnover tax. Therefore, they are committed to the withdrawal of £11 million in revenue in a full year. According to their leader's speech at their Árd Fheis, they are committed to a programme of expansion on all fronts. It is not incorrect to say that there is no suggestion from the leader or any other member of Fine Gael that they are now committed to any sort of retrenchment in agriculture, industry or tourism or any aspect of our economy. Therefore, you have a Party committed to continue expansion and at the same time, committed to forgo over £11 million in revenue. Expansion involves an increased revenue and the people are entitled to ask Deputy Sweetman if now is not the time to disclose his hand and, as shadow Minister for Finance, say how he will find the money that his Party are committed to spending and it is on the basis of that policy or programme or statement that they must seek the people's votes. That is something Fine Gael have declined and still decline to do. Deputy Sweetman announced this morning that they would continue to decline.

Did the Deputy ever make that speech at the last general election and tell the people they were going to put on a turnover tax?

The people put us here.

Did you tell them you were going to put on a turnover tax?

The people put us here to govern the country.

We did not tell the people we were going to bring in a turnover tax but long before that, in 1952 we told the people what was necessary to run the country properly. We introduced certain measures then to correct the situation of economic evil and we were butchered by Deputy McGilligan and the other members of Fine Gael for what was called the most brutal Budget——

And you were put out.

We were put out on the basis of lower taxes and better times, on the basis that the 1952 Budget was undesirable and unnecessary and was "Dev's means of getting his own back" on the people for having the temerity ever to put him out. That was how low Fine Gael propaganda went. But they found that money is needed to run a country, that it is desirable to keep the books balanced. The Irish people gave the answer twice. I am prepared to abide by the verdict of time on this measure also. I accept that certain people in Dublin and their counterparts in the country who had previously voted Fianna Fáil would vote against them if there were an election in the next six or 12 months or in the next two or three years——

Hear, hear.

I know people object to this turnover tax——

But you are going to force it through.

It is the same old story of propaganda, but I know that time will prove that just as Fianna Fáil were right in 1952 and just as what they said was right in 1956, the Irish people will in time learn that right and truth are here now and that if Fine Gael have a hand, they should show it and not cod the people any more by pretending they can produce results without money or without a policy.

Perhaps it is incorrect and unfair to say they have not a policy. They may have an excellent policy but I think the people are entitled to know what it is. It is very easy for Deputy Sweetman whose intelligence and ability are not in doubt to exercise his superior intelligence or knowledge to misinterpret the motives of the Government, and the nature and effect of the tax. It is too facile to say there should be a distinction between the purchaser of bread and the purchaser of a fur coat. As Deputy Sweetman said in admonishing some members of the House last night, I say to him now that he knows a good deal better than that and could do much better if he wished.

The Parliamentary Secretary said the tax would apply to nothing but fur coats, jewellery and expensive cars. I think the Deputy was there.

I was not. None of the floss falls on me. I conclude by saying that the aspect of the tax which appears to have upset and annoyed people so much is the threat of visits from hordes of inspectors and the prospect of a proliferation of forms. They visualised being chased about their premises by inspectors armed with masses of paper. That will not happen.

It was not today or yesterday people had that complaint to make about Fianna Fáil.

"Line the ditches with them."

That is another Fine Gael bogey used in an attempt to create false fears about this tax. The retailer will be obliged to state on a simple form at the end of a month his turnover for the period and he will be asked to furnish a cheque to the Revenue Commissioners for 2½ per cent of that.

Just as easy as that.

All he has to do each evening is to subtract the float from the money in the till, add that for every trading day in the month, and give 2½ per cent of the total. It would be nonsense to suggest that there are not certain people who have been evading tax and getting away with it for years. Both sides of the House agree that every effort should be made to bring them into the revenue net. Some are certain to be found out as a result of the turnover tax and it is time they were found out. I believe they represent a small minority and therefore the vast majority of honest traders who have been declaring their financial position to the inspectors of taxes over the years have absolutely nothing to fear from the operation of the new tax. They need fear no proliferation of forms or hordes of inspectors.

I am glad to have an opportunity to knock down that bogey on account of which many people were misguided enough to join in the protest. Literally hundreds gave me that reason as the basis of their opposition to the tax— more bookkeeping, more inspectors and more paper. Only when the tax is actually operating will they see that it can be implemented in a simple way and lose that fear. Many of them will opt out of the scheme altogether and their work will be done for them by the wholesaler, and I have some sympathy with the wholesaler who certainly will have additional work to do in that connection. However, the cry that has gone up throughout the land is a cry of anguish on behalf of the small trader, the small man, the man who cannot afford bookkeepers, the man who cannot afford a reduction in his margin of profit. I have dealt with every single one of these items in my speech and I believe that what I say will stand up to analysis at any time.

I have no doubt in my mind at all that the operation of the turnover tax will provide a certain amount of difficulty for traders, in spite of what Deputy Seán Flanagan has just said. He also said in the concluding part of his speech that he has dealt with this tax as it might affect the different sections of the community. There was one very important omission from his contribution to this discussion, that is, the fact that the consumer will have to pay £11 million extra per annum. I am concerned about the small trader and the annoyance that may be caused to him but primarily I am concerned with the type of person who will have to pay the bulk of this £11 million per year.

Some spokesmen from the Fianna Fáil Party have tried to argue about this £11 million to such a degree that it becomes absolutely dissolved and Deputy Flanagan, whether deliberately or otherwise—I am sure not deliberately—gave the impression that this £11 million would be smothered in some way or other, that RGDATA as an association or the traders themselves could absorb it and that it would be smothered to such an extent that it would never see the light of day.

The Minister for Finance said the traders can pass on this tax. I admit this was in the heat of the Dublin by-election when Ministers of the Government were making every type of statement in an effort to convince the people in Dublin North-East that the turnover tax was not as bad as it seemed. The Irish Press of 26th May reported a statement of the Minister for Finance which was issued through the Government Information Bureau to the effect that: “There was no obligation whatsoever on the traders to bear any portion of the new turnover tax and that they would be at liberty to pass it on to the consumer by adjusting prices or quantities.”

Frankly, I am at a loss to understand the method by which the members of the Fianna Fáil Party are defending this tax, and one must say they are defending it in six or seven different ways. Questions have been posed here and have been posed by some of the supporters of the Fianna Fáil Party down the country such as "Where would we get the money? We have to get the money." This is a lazy tax. This, according to Fianna Fáil themselves, is the last straw. This, according to Fianna Fáil, is a situation in which they have scraped the bottom of the barrel in an effort to find money. They have admitted by everything they have said and everything that is done in this Bill that they are absolutely bereft of any proposals for the financing of State services except this turnover tax.

This is the sort of tax which might be advocated by a schoolboy of eight or nine years. If one were to pose a question to a schoolboy: "Where would you get extra money to run the State?" having told him that beer, tobacco and cigarettes were taxed to the limit, the glib answer that the innocent child would give would be: "Let us tax everything. Put two and a half per cent tax on everything and we will get plenty of money." That seems to be the attitude of the Fianna Fáil Government. This tax was hastily thought up and the members of the Fianna Fáil Party and of the Government, when they decided on this tax, did not have an appreciation of what repercussions there would be.

I concede that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands is not a member of the inner Cabinet. I concede that he did not know up to the time the Minister for Finance introduced his Budget proposals what in fact these Budget proposals would be but when he addressed a meeting in Roscommon, Mayo or somewhere like that——

Boyle Dáilceanntar.

——I believe he was talking as an honest Irishman who had an interest in politics when he suggested, in view of what the Taoiseach had said in the month before that, that the sales tax as envisaged by the Minister would be a tax on luxury items. That is what the people thought. I believe the Parliamentary Secretary himself never thought for a moment that every single item would bear a tax and I am sure that he did not visualise at all that the Government would go to the utmost extreme and tax foodstuffs.

A justification for this tax seems to be sought in the Income Tax Commission Report but there is no justification whatsoever in that report that the Minister can plead for the introduction of this tax. Six out of the 11 members advocated, against five of their colleagues, a sales tax or purchase tax or something of that sort, provided income tax was reduced. The other five were against the introduction of a sales tax, even if income tax were reduced. They were against it in any circumstances. Therefore, there is no consolation for the Minister from any of the 11 members of the Income Tax Commission in his view that there should be introduced a turnover or a sales tax.

Fianna Fáil think there is some great virtue or merit in flouting the opinion of the public. They are bound to listen to the public. They are bound to listen to the voice that was expressed so forcibly in Dublin North-East. The turnover tax was the definite issue in that election. It was a challenge that was laid down by the Opposition Parties who contested that election and it was a challenge that was accepted by the Government, the evidence being that the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste, the Minister for Justice and various other front bench members jumped into the fray in defence, or should I say in different defences, of the turnover tax, and they were soundly beaten.

It may be said by members of the Government: "We cannot be stampeded by any section of the public." They said they will not be stampeded by members of RGDATA. I have no intimate knowledge of the operations of RGDATA. If there are friends of mine in it, I am not aware they are members of it but the Government must recognise that any demonstration that was carried on by RGDATA certainly was not provoked by any political Party. It was provoked merely by the introduction of this turnover tax, and the demonstration of resistance by RGDATA must be regarded as a spontaneous one as far as they are concerned, one that has not been prompted by any individual politician that I know of or by the political Parties, and certainly not by the Labour Party.

The Labour Party are opposed to the principle of a sales tax. They are opposed to the principle of this turnover tax which will, in fact, be a sales tax as far as the ordinary consumer is concerned. The Government themselves in April, 1961, in their comment on the Income Taxation Commission report with regard to the turnover or sales tax resisted the idea of a sales tax for certain reasons. I will quote the report once again:

It would shift so markedly the burden of taxation from single to married taxpayers, especially those with children, and from the higher to the lower income groups, as to be in the Government's view socially undesirable.

They believed then that a shift to a sales tax, to indirect taxation as against a reduction in direct taxation, would be socially undesirable, but they seem now to have abandoned their principles in respect of that sort of tax and, as I say, in desperation introduced it because they were bereft of any other ideas to raise money to run this country and pay for the various services.

It has been said here, once again by the last speaker, that the social welfare benefits will compensate. The social welfare benefits will not compensate. Apart from that, I think it is a shocking criticism of our attitude in the matter of social welfare, a shocking reflection on us to say that in a year in which we propose in the Budget to raise an extra £15 million or £16 million, all we can give to those in receipt of assistance benefits is the same old halfcrown per week. I remember Budgets introduced by the Fianna Fáil Government and by other Governments where extra taxation was raised to the extent of £1 million to £3 million or £4 million and a halfcrown was given to social welfare recipients. Here we are in a situation in which we are asking all the people to pay an extra £15 million or £16 million per year and we still shell out the usual halfcrown. We shell out the usual halfcrown in 1963, the usual increase that was given from 1948 onwards.

In the words of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, the increase in children's allowances will not compensate. He gave the example of the man with £10 per week, and with two children; he assumed he would spend 75 per cent of his income on articles that would be subject to the turnover tax. Of course a man in that category, a man with £10 per week, would spend, in my opinion, much more than the 75 per cent the Minister says he would. He said that, even if he did spend 75 per cent of his £10 per week, he would be spending an extra 3/6 in this turnover tax, but that he would be compensated to the extent of 2/3. He went on to say that a three-child family would get an increase of 3/3 per week, but he admits the breadwinner in that family would be spending more than the 3/3 compensation he would get by way of children's allowances.

One thing that is forgotten in all this is the fact that these workers to whom the Minister for Industry and Commerce referred will have to pay something like ninepence to one shilling extra towards the social insurance fund beginning from 1st January next. That is the category of man and family that can be given as an example in trying to demonstrate the justice, or injustice, of the turnover tax, but we are concerned also with the tens of thousands of other people who do not have £10 per week, who have not even £9, or £8, or £7 or £6 per week. We are concerned about the people who are now forced to exist on wages of £6, or less. We are concerned about the people who are dependent on social welfare benefits and the people who are dependent on social assistance. We are concerned about them because this turnover tax says that for every single thing they buy, especially in the line of foodstuffs and clothing and fuel, they will have to pay, if the traders, and they will undoubtedly take the advice of the Minister for Finance and pass on this tax, pass on this tax on practically every single thing they buy, apart from the money they may pay out in rent.

This is done to some extent in the name of encouraging people to save rather than spend. I think it is rather a joke, and somewhat ludicrous, to suggest that an old age pensioner, or an agricultural worker, or a forestry worker, or a road worker should be subject to this turnover tax in order that he may save out of the £6 per week the Agricultural Wages Board allows him, or out of the £6 10s. or the £6 15s. the Minister for Local Government says must not be increased in the case of the road worker, or out of the wages of the forestry worker whose wages are restricted by the decision of the Minister for Lands. Will this be an encouragement for such a worker to eat less bread, less butter, buy fewer clothes, in order that he may put something into the bank or post office? The Minister for Finance quoted what the Labour Party in Great Britain do in respect of the purchase tax there. He ought to read page 12 of the report entitled Direct Taxation in which it is stated that the purchase tax as administered at the present time in Great Britain varies in its rates as applied to different commodities from five per cent up to 50 per cent.

It is, I think, legitimate criticism to say that it is both inequitable and unjust that there should be a 2½ per cent tax on bread and the same 2½ per cent on a motor car, a fur coat, or some item of jewellery. If they want to operate the tax as the Parliamentary Secretary wants them to operate it, they would be much nearer his policy if they adopted something like the British system rather than the lazy, inept method they are using now: we will tax everything because it is the simplest thing to do. They seem to be determined not alone to go against public opinion in persisting in going through with this tax, but they do it against the view of the Income Taxation Commission. They do it against the view of at least five of the members of that Commission who, as I had occasion to point out before, represent by far the vast majority of the people of Ireland.

Fianna Fáil do not seem to be concerned about the opinion of the vast majority of the people of Ireland but seem to be concerned merely to stay on for another while in the hope that next year might improve—until, I suggest, they see the benefits that will undoubtedly be reaped from this tax if it is passed here this week, benefits to such an extent that they may have a substantial surplus next year. I suggest that is what they are budgeting for. They will penalise the people now by introducing this tax so that, prior to a snap election, they may have largesse to throw around.

It would be beneficial then?

To Fianna Fáil.

Who will suffer in the meantime?

They suffered in 1957.

The Deputy is perfectly right to say that they suffered in 1957. I am sure he will remember——

When you ran away from your responsibilities and left the nation in the lurch.

There must have been another funeral this morning. The Deputy is delivering the oration here.

The Deputy is one of those parish pump politicians.

Who invented the parish pump politician?

Deputy Corish might be allowed to make his speech.

I am glad that Deputy Burke interrupted to mention 1957 because I am sure he will remember that was the year in which Fianna Fáil introduced a Budget in which they slashed the remainder of the food subsidies. If it was a bad year for the poor people, it was Fianna Fáil who were responsible.

£10 million of Government securities were sold before the election in 1957 to help pay the bills.

(Interruptions.)

You are very jittery over there; you must be expecting an election.

It has been suggested that this turnover tax will not have any great effect on the cost of living but I cannot understand how anyone can argue like that. The Minister for Finance in May said that this turnover tax may be passed on and there was no obligation on any trader to bear it. That means that people are going to have to pay more for the various articles they buy to the tune of £11 million. It is not merely a tax of 2½ per cent which the people will have to pay. In any case that the trader will be expected to pay 2½ per cent, say on £100, the cost will now be £102 10s. to the purchaser. That will represent a turnover of £102 10s. in respect of that particular commodity. Will he also be expected to pay 2½ per cent on the £102 10s., which means in effect the amount that will be passed on, if the trader is to recoup himself, must of necessity be more than 2½ per cent? We have to contrast all the effects of this tax with the cost of living and we must relate it to wages.

During the course of the debate on the White Paper, Closing the Gap, it was said that it was not a pay pause, that it was merely a painting of a picture and a forecast as to how the economy might best be protected. We know now that what we said then has come true and there is in fact a wages or salary standstill order in respect of Government and semi-Government employees.

And Mr. Wilson is following suit.

If you would follow Mr. Wilson in other things, perhaps I would listen to you. If the cost of living is to be increased, surely the trade unions will not be expected to sit back and bear this increase and the various other increases, such as the increase in insurance stamps and other increases I have mentioned. The workers are asked to sit back and bear this turnover tax and to heed the admonition of the Government that they are expected to refrain from seeking wage increases. This is a hastily-conceived tax; it is a lazy tax and demonstrates that the Government are in fact lost for ideas for raising money.

If it is suggested that the Opposition should disclose their hand in that respect, we should always take the example of the Taoiseach who, when he was in Opposition, said that it was not the business of an Opposition to provide solutions for a Government, that it was the Government's responsibility to make proposals and that it was the duty and the business of the Opposition to criticise. If we should happen to be in government some day, that will be our responsibility. If others are in government, that is their responsibility, to make proposals in regard to taxation. It is Fianna Fáil's responsibility now. It is our duty to be critical of them. As far as we can see, this is a bad tax and it is going to have a detrimental effect, especially on the poor people and on salary and wage earners.

Deputy Seán Flanagan has revived today the Fianna Fáil thesis of the Dublin North-East by-election, that is, that this tax is designed to raise in a full year between £10 million and £11 million but that nobody will have to pay. That was refined in the course of the by-election campaign into a statement that the shopkeeper would have to pay. While that declaration was being made at one street corner by Fianna Fáil spokesmen, at an adjoining corner the Minister for Finance was declaiming that there was no obligation on any shopkeeper to pay any part of it and the proposal was to pass it all on to the consumer. Deputy Seán Flanagan says today that according to his estimate, the consumer will not have to pay anything at all. The Minister for Finance says that the consumer will have to pay and that he has taken the precaution to make provision for increased social services designed to offset the increase in the cost of living that recipients of social welfare benefits will have to meet.

That is one of the dirty elements of this tax. It is not merely a lazy tax; it is a dishonest tax. It is the first time that a Government have ever come into this House ashamed to tell the people where a tax proposed by them is designed to fall. They are ashamed to tell the people that they mean the tax to fall on the essential commodities without which ordinary people cannot survive. They are ashamed to reveal to the people what the Minister for Finance himself blurted out in the course of the earlier stages of this Bill, that unless this tax fell on food, fuel and footwear, it would not yield the return that he requires. Of course, it is going to result in an increase in the cost of living and, of course, that is going to have inevitable consequences. We are told, on the one hand, by Government spokesmen, led by the Taoiseach, that all must be on the alert to ensure low costs and make ourselves more competitive in the export markets into which we have to face in order to maintain our balance of trade in the years ahead. Does anybody suggest, when there will be an increase in the cost of living, to offset which the Minister has declared it will be necessary to provide extra social benefits, that we are going to secure in this society a wages stability which is so essential for the maintenance of low costs and a competitive position in the export markets in which we trade? Nobody but a lunatic would imagine that that was so, unless he believed we are prepared to embark on a protracted period of reduction of the general standard of living for the purpose of claiming a greater degree of competitiveness in the export capacity which we have hitherto enjoyed.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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