asked the Minister for External Affairs if he will make a statement with regard to his recent visit to Brussels, including an account of what subjects were discussed, and whether any decisions were reached.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Brussels Discussions.
11.
I do not think that I can usefully add at the present time to the Press communiqué which was issued in Brussels after the meeting with the Commission on the 29th November. With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to circulate in the Official Report, for the convenience of Deputies, a translation of the communiqué.
Following is the translation:—
Mr. Frank Aiken, the Minister for External Affairs of Ireland, visited the Commission of the European Economic Community in Brussels on 29th November, 1963.
M. Jean Rey, President of the External Relations Group, presided over a meeting devoted to an exchange of views, in which also participated M. Mansholt, Vice-President of the Commission, and senior officials of Ireland and of the Commission.
During the exchange of views various problems of mutual interest were discussed, in particular, the position of Ireland in relation to the problems of European integration, the economic expansion of Ireland, and the prospects envisaged by the Second Programme for Economic Expansion. In addition, certain questions relating to the development of trade between Ireland and the Community, particularly in agricultural products, were discussed.
Discussions of a technical nature between senior officials of Ireland and the Commission will take place early in the New Year. Following today's conversations, which took place in a cordial and constructive atmosphere, further similar meetings are envisaged.
Does the Taoiseach think it is reasonable that we ought to be informed in this House of what the situation is in regard to our negotiations with the European Economic Community in view of the fact that the Minister for External Affairs has led a delegation to discussions in Brussels with them? Does he think those discussions have advanced our prospects of entering the Community or does he think we are possibly on some other line?
The meeting was for the purpose of an exchange of views, in which various problems of mutual interest were discussed, in particular the position of Ireland in relation to the problems of European integration, the economic expansion of Ireland, and the prospects envisaged by the Second Programme for Economic Expansion. Certain questions relating to the development of trade between Ireland and the Community, particularly in agricultural products, were also discussed.
Surely the Taoiseach will not interpret my question as meaning any disrespect to the text of the communiqué? The statement the Taoiseach read out means nothing at all. The only concrete thing in that is that the Minister is alleged to have had discussions on the prospect of trade between Ireland and the Community. What the Community has to do with our own so-called Programme of Economic Expansion, I cannot imagine. It is not Brussels business, as far as I understand.
The communiqué did suggest that the future relations of Ireland with the European Economic Community were discussed, and I think it reasonable to ask the Taoiseach was that issue raised or, if not, did we envisage our entry into the Community ourselves without regard to Great Britain's decision? Did we inform the Community that we would not enter unless Great Britain entered and, in either event, what was the reaction of the Community to such information as we gave it?
The discussions which took place recently in Brussels will be followed now by technical discussions between officials of the Government here and representatives of the Commission, and a future Ministerial meeting will follow later next year.
Could the Taoiseach tell me, did we inform the European Economic Community at these discussions that we intended to enter the European Economic Community with or without Great Britain or did we inform the Community that it was not our intention to revive our application for admission, unless and until the application of Great Britain for admission was accepted?
Neither.
Perhaps the Taoiseach will tell us what we were doing?
What happened was an exchange of views and these views, naturally, ranged over the prospects of further development both in respect of the internal arrangements of the Community and the extension of the membership of the Community, but it was never more than an exchange of views.
And the Taoiseach is not in a position to tell us, in the light of that exchange, what the prospects are of our entering the Community by 1970?
No, it is not possible to give any firm indication of when the possibility of our membership will open up again. There is a general view, which is shared, I understand, by members of the Commission, that our expectation that we will be a member by 1970 is a realistic one.
The discussions were not very fruitful, I gather.
Could I ask the Taoiseach, in the discussions which were held, was any reference made to the type of membership which would be offered to us if we do become members by the date mentioned by the Taoiseach—1970—as to whether we would be a full member or an associate member?
Our interest is in full membership.
Could I ask the Taoiseach if the Government consider that there is no advantage in seeking external association as the road to full membership and, if so, if he could indicate to the House on what grounds he bases the statement made either by him or by the Minister for External Affairs—I am not quite sure which—that we may be members by 1970?
As to the date of our probable membership, this is an expectation which I have expressed, not any forecast based upon firm grounds. As regards association, there is no advantage to this country in association and no solution of the problems of our trade relations with Great Britain which would not be far better realised in full membership.
Would the Taoiseach not consider that external association might be the road to membership and, further, that external association would not in any way prejudice our trade relations with the United Kingdom?
I do not accept that.
This is becoming a debate. Question No. 12.