asked the Minister for Health whether he is aware that, in a political advertisement appearing in the public press of 4th December, a reference is made to the Government's plans for better health services; and whether he will state what their plans are; and if they have been brought to the notice of the Select Committee on the Health Services.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Government Health Services Plans.
9.
I have seen this advertisement and I am glad that the Deputy has taken heed of it.
The Government consider that the present system of health services provides a satisfactory basis for developments and improvements, such as are envisaged by the Second Programme for Economic Expansion and by a recent statement of the Taoiseach. That the health services, like any human institution, can be improved is not, however, questioned, and that the Government are alive to this will be evident from their decisions to establish, in special fields, the Commissions on Mental Illness and Mental Handicap and, on the general plane, by their sponsoring the motion to establish the Select Committee on the Health Services.
In May, 1962, there was presented to the Select Committee a 100-page document entitled Memorandum from the Department of Health describing the Irish Health Services. This describes how the present services have evolved, how they are financed and administered and what general principles have been behind their development. This book describes each of the present services and itemises the matters which the Select Committee might consider in relation to it. For example, on the General Medical Service, it lists for consideration:
"(1) The limit for eligibility for the service;
(2) The arrangements for determining eligibility;
(3) The practicability of a choice of doctor and the consequential arrangements which would be required to be made with existing and additional personnel;
(4) The estimation of the cost of any extension or modification;
(5) Any changes needed in the system for supplying drugs, appliances and medicines under the service."
I have considered myself to be uninhibited in quoting from this document as, with the consent of the Select Committee, I have already circulated copies of it to all members of this House and of An Seanad. There are numerous other Committee documents and statistical tables submitted by myself and my Department which I cannot yet quote from in this House but which, the Deputy will know, have put before the Committee as much as we could give it of the facts on the present system and, without commitment, the possible lines of its development. "Without commitment", I say, because it was inherent in my approach to the Committee's work that I and other members from this side of the House should not endeavour to bulldoze a preconceived plan through it, but that we should approach our work with open minds.
When the Committee reports and its documents are published, it will be obvious that the Government had a clear, co-ordinated and responsible approach to the Committee's work and assisted it greatly by explaining and clarifying where necessary its policies. One wonders will it ever be possible to say the same of the nebulous scheme of which the Deputy has recently spoken but of which his colleagues in the Committee have heard only the haziest outline.
Is all not that so much pie in the sky? Would the Minister indicate what precise plans the Government now have for improving our health services?
The Deputy is a member of the Committee.
I understand from the Minister's reply which I have read—the Minister himself, of course, prepared it——
Hear, hear—that is obvious.
——that he has put a plan before the Committee and he more or less implies, I think, that the Deputy has failed to do the same thing.
I can assure the Minister for Finance that no plans whatsoever have been put forward by the Minister for Health to the Select Committee.
That is not true.
The Parliamentary Secretary might cultivate some manners. I should like to know from the Minister whether he stated— I did not catch precisely what he said —that the Government were generally satisfied with the present system with regard to health services. Does that mean that, in fact, the Government have no proposals either to amend or end the present Health Act services and, if they have no such proposals——
That is not true. The Deputy is a member of the Committee, and a number of proposals have been put before it.
Does that mean that the Government have, in fact, no plans in the matter, because up to this it does appear no concrete proposals whatsoever——
That is not true.
A Cheann Comhairle, I must be protected from these interruptions. Up to the moment no plans whatsoever have been submitted by the Minister for Health.
That is simply not true because the Deputy is a member of the Committee and a number of proposals have been put before the Committee.
It is true, and I suggest the Parliamentary Secretary either curb his tongue or mend his manners. The Minister for Health stated recently that matters of health policy should not be discussed while the Select Committee was in session. Does that apply only to Deputies in Opposition? Does it not apply to the Taoiseach or other members of the Government?
The Minister was, I think, very careful in his reply; he would not say anything in public that was not already public.
He said nothing either in private or in public.
He was not himself over the weekend.
He has to get some treatment.
The reply said the health services could be improved.
In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I propose, Sir, with your permission, to raise this matter on the Adjournment.
I shall communicate with the Deputy.