asked the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs what precise authority gives his Department the right to interpret the Road Traffic Act and fine postmen-drivers for an alleged offence; and if he will state the precise authority for deducting the fines from wages without the consent of the man concerned, the status of the Departmental official who makes the judgment, and the source of the legal opinion on which the judgment is based.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Fining of Postmen-Drivers.
78.
My Department does not interpret the Road Traffic Act and does not fine any officer for a breach of the Act. Accordingly, the question of a legal opinion, mentioned by the Deputy, does not arise. If a departmental motor vehicle is damaged while in the care of a postman-driver disciplinary action may be taken if the circumstances warrant it. The disciplinary action depends on the particular circumstances and in some cases takes the form of a monetary penalty.
Fines are imposed, not on a legalistic basis but as an alternative to more severe penalties such as removal from driving duties, deferment of increment or reduction in pay. The rank of the officer taking the disciplinary decision varies according to the gravity of the case but it would, in any event, be contrary to practice to disclose the rank of the officer who, of course, acts on behalf of the Minister. It is open to any postman concerned to appeal to the Minister against the decision and all such appeals are dealt with by myself personally.
May I take it that in a case where a postman driver is involved in an accident, which results in damage to his van, there is no question of anybody in the Department adjudicating as to whether or not he committed an offence and deciding whether or not he should be fined?
No one in the Department decides whether he committed an offence under the Road Traffic Act. That is a matter for a different authority.
That appears to me a pretty smart sort of an answer.
That is the position.
I know that is the position, but the Minister pretends he does not act as a judge in deciding whether or not there was an offence under the Road Traffic Act.
It is not a pretence. It is a right.
The plain fact of the matter is that, if a postman has an accident and damage is done to his van, he may be fined.
Not necessarily. That may occur if he has broken any of the Department's own regulations. The Department deals with that side of the matter. There are a number of alternative ways of dealing with it from a disciplinary point of view and one of them is—it is the lesser one—to impose a monetary penalty on the person concerned.
May I take the Minister further on this? Suppose a postman comes back to his depot, with damage done to his van, and he reports that he has had an accident, could the Minister tell me what happens after that?
The Deputy is asking me now about a particular case.
It is a general question.
There is a statement taken from the postman by the official concerned. The question of whether a breach of the Road Traffic Act occurred is not relevant to this matter. If the official decides that the postman was negligent, or broke any of the Department's own regulations, then he deals with that particular case in a disciplinary way. The postman is told the outcome and, if he is not satisfied, he can appeal to the Minister.
Is it not a fact that a layman in the service of the Post Office takes it on himself to fine an employee for a trivial offence a greater amount than he would be fined if he were taken before the court for a serious road traffic offence?
The Deputy is confusing the issue.
I am not. It is the Minister who is doing that.
If a man is taken before the court it is the Gardaí who take him there and he is fined for a particular offence under the Road Traffic Act. The Post Office deals with him in relation to their own regulations and the carrying out of their own regulations.
Is it not ridiculous that he should be fined more for a trivial offence, even if it is an internal affair carried out by an official of the Minister, than he would be if he committed a serious offence?
This is a regular practice in State employment.
Of course it is, and it should be done away with immediately.
Disciplinary action has to be taken.
Suppose the postman driver says it was not his fault——
It never is.
In this case it would appear as if the postman is always wrong.
That is not so.
If the postman says in his report that it was not his fault, what attitude is then taken by the official who decides?
Various actions are taken in various cases and one would want the particulars of individual cases to give the Deputy a hard and fast answer.
We will ask the Minister to give us hundreds of them.
There is not any great dissatisfaction and there would be a great deal more dissatisfaction if increments were stopped, pay reduced, or those concerned removed from their driving duties.
These are ordinary hazards.
I am calling Question No. 79.
This is an important matter.
We cannot have all the evening on it.
We can have all the evening.
I am not going to allow it.