Vol. 211 No. 8
I move:
That a sum not exceeding £236,300 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1965, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Finance, including the Paymaster-General's Office.
I move:
That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.
I do so mainly to enable us, as a matter of policy, to discuss the company set up by the Minister last year, that is, Taiscí Stáit Teoranta, and to get some information from the Minister about what has been done under that company. As far as I can trace, no report or statement has been placed in the Library in respect of this company since we passed the Act in June, 1963. I should have thought there would have been accounts to the 31st March last by this and that they would have been tabled. I should like to ascertain from the Minister what is the precise date that has been chosen by the directors of the company concerned as their concluding date for accounts, when the accounts will be ready and when they will be put on the Table of the House.
I should like also to know from the Minister whether a general meeting of the company has been held and, if so, whether any speech by the chairman of the company was in fact published. I have not seen any speech in the newspapers so far. This company was set up for the express purpose of taking up shares and lending finance to certain named undertakings while, of course, it was given the power to take shares in other concerns as well. The House will recall that the taking up of shares and debentures in hotel companies was one of the first objects named by the Minister for Finance on the Second Reading of the Bill on 28th May, 1963. I should like the Minister to give the House the exact particulars of any such shares and debentures taken up in pursuance of that object.
Secondly, the Minister made it clear that the purpose of the company was to take up shares in a new company to be called Aviation Development Ltd. —"the development company," I am quoting the Minister, "established by the Potez interest in connection with the project to manufacture commercial aircraft here." I should like again to have similar information from the Minister in respect of that company. I should like to know what exactly is happening in relation to it. I have the facility for seeing movements, so to speak, around the Potez factory at Clondalkin as I come in and out every day along that road. As far as one can see from the outside, while the building has been finished for many months, there would not appear to be any internal activity of any sort at the moment.
I should be glad to know—and I am sure the House and the country would be glad to know—what is the cause of the apparent hiatus in the development work in relation to it. In the ordinary course of events, a factory of that sort would be desperately anxious to get going during the fine weather of the summer. But, although the factory to all intents and purposes, as far as one can see from the outside, was entirely finished in time for the summer season, there appears to be no activity there at all at the moment.
The third object for which this company was established was to take over from the Industrial Credit Company the shares and debentures of the Dundalk Engineering Company Ltd., Dundalk. We have had many discussions about Dundalk here. On the last occasion it was discussed, the Minister made it clear there was to be a reevaluation of the assets of the Dundalk factories as between the Industrial Credit Company, the Dundalk personnel themselves and, presumably, the Department of Finance, for the purpose of deciding what amount should be finally written off as having been lost and what amount reasonably remained in the concern itself. I should like to know whether that has been done, what figure has been put down as being the cost of the operation in so far as there has been a loss and what remains as part of a viable undertaking.
In connection with Dundalk, I may say that some couple of years ago I was in Dundalk and was seriously criticised at the time by certain trade union interests up there. They did not agree with the comments I had made in relation to the Dundalk Engineering Works. I happened to meet the same trade union people about three months ago. They went out of their way to tell me they all realise now that the comments I made at that time were fully justified and were right and that the view they expressed at that time was wrong. They all realise now that a great deal of that money was just thrown away and was not put to use appropriate to making permanent employment for the people in Dundalk who had been displaced as a result of the closing of the GNR works. It is most unfortunate, to put it mildly, that that money was so utterly thrown away and not used for proper development. I should like to know now from the Minister what is the amount that has been written off as having been lost in the operation.
The fourth object named by the Minister at that time in May, 1963, was to guarantee the borrowings of companies to which Foras Tionscal had made a grant. What guarantees have been given, and, of course, to what companies? On all these headings I should like the Minister to give the House such information as is available, including the amount of the State investment and so forth.
I said before, and I repeat now, that I am glad the non-viable undertakings directed by the Government were taken away from the ordinary commercial working of the Industrial Credit Company. It seemed to me an entire misuse of the Industrial Credit Company to utilise it for what were in fact solely Government-directed enterprises as apart from ordinary commercial enterprises. At the same time, welcoming the fact that they were taken away from the Industrial Credit Company does not mean that the fullest possible information should not be given to this House. Indeed, there is a very strong case for even fuller information in relation to this company because it is a company expressly formed for the purpose of carrying out Government directions, and the directors are, in fact, appointed on that basis.
Apart from what he has actually set out, can the Minister indicate whether there are any other objects which it is proposed to utilise through this company in the immediate future? I presume the company itself operates purely on a nominal capital with borrowings from the Exchequer? Again, that is a matter about which I should like to have some information. I think it not unreasonable to suggest that Ministers for Finance, using the term in the corporate sense, should, as a matter of course, in their speeches introducing Vote 6 in the future give a brief résumé of the working of this company in the year that has passed.
The Deputy has given a fairly full outline of what the objects of Taiscí Stáit are, as laid down in the Act. They are to deal with shares and debentures of State-assisted industries and also to give guarantees, where guarantees are necessary, for loans by such companies and by hotels under the Tourist Traffic Acts. Taiscí Stáit were set up on 11th March last.
Only then?
Yes. The directors are the Secretaries of the four Departments concerned — Finance, Industry and Commerce, Transport and Power and Agriculture. I stated, when the Bill was before the Dáil, that in all probability the board would be an official body with no outsiders on it. That is the company as set up. There was no transaction of business before the end of March. Since then, there has been only one—£448,000 has been paid to the Aviation Development Company Limited. That took place towards the end of April.
I presume their financial year will end on 31st March so that in the ordinary way we would not expect a report from them until 31st March next. It will always be possible to give any information required by Deputies in a reasonable way.
The second specific case that Taiscí Stáit were concerned with was the Dundalk Engineering Works. This could not be handed over to Taiscí Stáit until the losses were computed and paid. That will mean coming to the Dáil with a Supplementary Estimate and, therefore, of course, the Dáil will have ample notice before that transaction takes place. We have not got a final report on the losses yet and I do not know what the amount will be. The guarantees and so on that are there with regard to loans made to State-assisted companies will, I presume, be handed over to Taiscí Stáit in due course.
Did the company not do anything about taking up the shares in the hotels?
They have not taken them over yet.
Can the Minister give any indication of the total sum invested in the aviation business?
So far, £448,000.
The Industrial Credit Company have put up a loan of more than that.
It was £1½ million.
Is that the total— the whole works?
Yes.
Would the Minister not agree that it is desirable that when Ministers for Finance are in future introducing matters of this kind they would give an outline of the working of this company?
It is a question of time. If the annual report of Taiscí Stáit is available, I presume it will be laid on the Table of the House and Deputies will be in a position to raise any questions they wish. If the report were not issued, there would not be very much point in the Minister for Finance going into the question. Taiscí Stáit have not yet fixed their financial year, though I assume it will be 31st March.
We can use the pressure of the reference back to make sure the report will be there.
I shall be only too anxious to let the Dáil have all available information because it is the kind of information the Dáil obviously should have.
