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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 10 Jun 1965

Vol. 216 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 41—Transport and Power (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a sum not exceeding £5,006,400 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1966, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Transport and Power, including certain Services administered by that Office, and for payment of sundry Grants-in-Aid.
—(Minister for Transport and Power.)

The main item in the Minister's speech in which I am particularly interested is that dealing with Shannon Airport and the Shannon Development Company. In view of the fact that a Bill will be coming before the House in the near future and in view of the fact that the Minister has not given many details about the work of the Shannon Development Company, I propose to await the Bill to discuss it fully. However, there are a few matters relating to Shannon Airport mentioned in the Minister's speech which are worthy of comment.

I was particularly glad to note the improvement in the past year in passenger traffic through Shannon Airport. Passenger traffic is up by 14 per cent and this is the first increase since 1960. It reflects great credit on the work of the Shannon Development Company and particularly on the tourist section of that company. There is no doubt that over the past couple of years, since the Shannon Development Company entered the field of tourism, traffic through the airport has increased considerably. Among the notable achievements of the company has been the introduction of the mediaeval tours and the development of Bunratty Castle. These are paying very big dividends and I think they are mainly responsible for the increase of 14 per cent in passenger traffic.

I notice that the terminal traffic is up by 30 per cent but the transit traffic is down six per cent. Freight traffic is down by eight per cent but the terminal freight is up by 31 per cent. Am I to take it that terminal freight is freight originating from the Industrial Estate at Shannon? If that is so, and if there is an increase of 31 per cent in the terminal freight, it is also a very welcome development. There has also been an increase of 20 per cent in sales and catering at the airport and of course that is a logical and natural increase from the increase in the passenger traffic. There was some doubt during the early part of this year in regard to the restrictions being imposed on American tourists in respect of the amount of money they could spend. We were worried lest this might have an adverse affect on the sales of the duty-free shop. I should like the Minister to clear the air in this regard and to say whether or not there have been any developments since he replied to a question which I tabled last February regarding the amount of money which could be spent by American tourists, and whether or not there is a limit on the quantity of goods they can bring back when returning from their holidays here.

Another big factor which has contributed to the increase in passenger traffic in the past year was the inauguration of the Shannon-London service by BEA. This was something which we had been seeking for a long time and obviously there was a demand for a quicker service between Shannon and Britain. The business done since the inauguration of that service has justified its introduction. There is also, of course, the Aer Lingus-Manchester service and the Aer Lingus service to Paris. All that indicates that the future of Shannon as an airport lies mainly in the further promotion of tourism in the west and south-west. The introduction of the Holidays Scheme by CIE, package holiday deals, has also been very successful and these have also contributed to the increase in passenger traffic at Shannon. Considerable progress has been made in the development of tourism in the Limerick and Clare areas, the areas closest to the airport, but much more remains to be done. I hope that with the establishment of the regional tourist company, covering Limerick and Clare, other places that have tourist potential in these counties will be developed and that this will lead to further traffic through Shannon.

I shall not review the work of the Development Company in regard to the industrial estate and the provision of houses because I presume that will be dealt with more fully in the Shannon Airport Bill that will come before the House shortly. There have been certain improvements in the airport itself in the past year. The terminal building has been improved. I saw it the other day and there were certainly very welcome improvements in regard to catering and baggage handling facilities. There have been two interesting developments which may escape public notice which are very significant in the whole development of aviation and particularly in regard to Ireland's place in the field of international aviation. One is the development of what is called Eurocontrol of which we are now members and which leads to better safety regulations and so on; to better control of aircraft within the European area. There is also the fact that new arrangements have been made for what is known as the Shanwick area, the area on this half of the Atlantic, for better control of the upper air lanes. The fact that Ireland and Britain have negotiated this new arrangement leading to better co-ordination of services and therefore better safety arrangements is another welcome and desirable development.

The Minister dealt at length with Aer Lingus. He reported that they continue to make very good progress and have the highest load ratio of all the Atlantic carriers. I note that they have decided to sell their Friendship aircraft and that it is intended to purchase Viscounts from KLM. I am somewhat perturbed about this as I presume the Viscounts they are purchasing are secondhand. So far as I know up to this Aer Lingus has always for the most part obtained new aircraft and I think that policy of purchasing the latest type of aircraft has been a very significant factor in their success. I am not happy about purchasing second-hand aircraft from KLM. Perhaps the Minister would give some assurances when he replies to the debate.

It is pretty obvious from what has been said about Aer Lingus and its work in the past 12 months that the company has now reached the stage where shortage of aircraft is hampering further development. I note they have had to charter aircraft from other companies on several occasions in the past year. This is something also that must be looked into. If the extra business is there I should be in favour of pushing ahead and putting into service the latest type of aircraft rather than chartering planes from other companies or purchasing second-hand planes.

A very important aspect of this Estimate is tourism. Progress has undoubtedly been made in the development of tourism but that is no ground for complacency. Personally, I am not satisfied with the progress made in regard to tourist promotion in Britain. We have gone to the limit now and should go no further in attracting the type of tourist who looks for luxury hotel accommodation. I believe there is a tremendous potential in Britain and that we have not tackled this market as we should have tackled it. I also regret that due to some mix-up the Irish Tourist Board had to leave its offices in Regent Street and is now operating from temporary buildings in Cambodia Street. I know that some unforeseen circumstances arose particularly in regard to the alternative accommodation which was to have been provided in New Bond Street, in the New Ireland House, but it now transpires that the New Bond Street premises will not be available until September while the Board had to get out of Regent Street on May 15 and right through the peak season will be operating from an upper storey in Cambodia Street off Oxford Street. There is also no manager in the Glasgow office. I should like to know why and also why eight vacancies for salesmen for Great Britain advertised several months ago were not filled. I should like to know whether it is intended to appoint these people. The incidents I have mentioned have convinced me that the British tourist market is not being looked upon in the proper light.

I spoke on last year's Estimate about tourist promotion in Britain by the Irish Tourist Board and suggested that not enough emphasis was being placed on attracting angling tourists to this country. A certain amount of good work has been done. A survey was sponsored by the Angling Times and carried out by Market Research Limited, a leading UK Market research company, and that survey showed that there are 2.6 million anglers in Great Britain. More interesting still, it showed that 70 per cent of them were coarse fishermen, 20 per cent were sea fishermen and only ten per cent were interested in game fishing. I notice from a recent Bord Fáilte report that Bord Fáilte seem to think that the be-all and end-all of angling tourism is game fishing. On the statistics I have seen as a result of a survey carried out by the Angling Times, the great potential is the 1,500,000 coarse fishermen in Great Britain, who could be attracted to spend their holidays fishing on the numerous lakes and rivers that we have and which abound in coarse fish and provide excellent sport.

I feel that Bord Fáilte are not serious in their approach to this question of angling tourism because in the entire of Great Britain, where this great potential is, there is only one man engaged in the promotion of angling tourism in Ireland and that man has to fly to and fro several times a year and, in addition to advertising our fishing facilities in Great Britain and encouraging English fishermen to come here, he has to hop over here several times a year to advise local angling centres on various aspects of development. Surely that is beyond the bounds of human possibility. It is not possible for one man to cope efficiently with this type of tourist promotion.

I stated on the occasion of the debate on the Estimate for Transport and Power on a former occasion that I believe we need to have at least four men in Great Britain who would be engaged wholetime in advertising our angling facilities and organising and encouraging groups to come here and that we need to have at least four others in this country specialising exclusively in the development of angling centres.

Having studied the angling tourist market in Great Britain and having been engaged in an effort to develop one or two local centres in my own constituency I am aware that there is a lack of a proper advisory service. When a centre sets about doing something to develop its facilities a local committee is formed and there is considerable difficulty once a committee is formed in getting expert advice on the production of brochures, the improvement of facilities, amenities, and so on. This is a very serious matter particularly in view of the fact that there is a potential market of 2.6 million anglers in Great Britain.

I sincerely hope that over the next 12 months Bord Fáilte will have regard to the British market in a much more serious manner, that the vast potential there will be recognised and that a proper effort will be made to attract the maximum number of English visitors, not merely fishermen, but others, to spend their holidays here.

There are one or two other items. Deputy Treacy referred at length to the question of CIE pensions. I want again to refer to the whole approach to this question. I note from the Minister's speech that certain improvements have been made and, in particular, that the Minister said:

A very good feature of the new pension rates is that when the pension and social insurance benefits are combined, married pensioners opting for the alternative rate of pension will no longer be subject to a reduction of income at the age of 70 years.

With Deputy Treacy, I too believe that this idea of trying to amalgamate, if you like, the social payments with the CIE pension is a bad one and that, as Deputy Treacy said, a man who reaches the age of 70 is entitled to the contributory old age pension as of right and it was very unfair that his CIE pension should have been reduced. But, there is one question that I should like to ask the Minister. While the Minister did give us a reasonably detailed account of the new pension scheme for 14,000 CIE employees, I should like to know what is the position regarding the unfortunate CIE pensioners about whom I tabled a motion in this House one and a half years ago. These are the people who have retired in the last ten years. What about the people who are receiving £1 a week now? Admittedly, they got an increase of 8/- in the last 12 months and now have £1. Others have £1 2s. 6d. and those under 70 have £2 11s. 3d.

I should like the Minister, when replying, to go into greater detail regarding these three categories of pensioners and if they are not included in this particular scheme I sincerely hope that the Minister has not completely forgotten them and that he does not accept as adequate the miserable increase of 8/-, bringing their pension from 12/- to £1. I do not think that these persons are included in this scheme and I should like to know from the Minister what he proposes to do about them.

Of course, the unfortunate and tragic thing about these pensioners is the fact that they are getting on in years and their life expectancy is at most a few years. If we look at the figures for the last three or four years we find that each year there is a considerable reduction in their number. I would appeal, therefore, to the Minister, to see to it at this stage that these CIE pensioners will get some measure of justice in the last years of their lives.

One final matter to which I should like to refer is the question of harbours. A certain amount of money has been allocated for the development of a number of harbours but I am surprised to note that there is no mention of the Port of Limerick. I understand that certain proposals have been put forward and perhaps the Minister would be good enough, when replying to the debate, to say what has become of those proposals or whether it is intended to proceed with the development of the Port of Limerick.

First of all, I should like to say that it is extremely difficult for Deputies, as it must have been for the Minister, to assimilate the amount of information contained in the very big brief which he used yesterday and which we have been trying to go through since. However, there are a number of points to which I should like to refer and while my remarks may seem to the Minister rather disjointed, I am sure he will understand the points I am trying to make.

Like Deputy O'Donnell and Deputy Treacy, I wish to refer to this question of CIE pensions and the basis on which the new pensions structure is being set up. I am rather disappointed that this system has again reared its ugly head in a Transport and Power Estimate. Some years ago the Minister set a headline, a very bad headline, when he introduced a Bord na Móna pensions scheme into this House which I and my colleagues unsuccessfully tried to have voted down, one which, for the first time, introduced the element of social welfare benefit as a supposed subsidy to a contributory pension. At that time I pointed out that in order to get any kind of decent pension, the Bord na Móna employee would have to live to the year 2003, and the Minister agreed with me. It appears that the CIE pensioners are to be treated in the same way.

Perhaps the Minister could explain to me why it is that he of all the Government Ministers, and his Department, of all the Government Departments should have this bee in their bonnet that social welfare benefits can be counted as a supplement to a contributory pension. It is most unfair and while it may be all right to say that officials who retire and who do not stamp cards get only the pension to which they are entitled for their service, the manual employee who does stamp a card and thereby qualifies on his insurance for a pension is now having that pension counted for the purpose of cutting down what he should be entitled to by way of a CIE pension.

I do not know whether the Minister has made a mistake or whether I am misreading the brief but he does refer to what they will get at the age of 65. The Minister is aware that the old age pension is not payable until the age of 70. How can he say that at the age of 65 a CIE pensioner can count on a supplement from social welfare unless he goes to the local labour exchange and signs on for unemployment benefit until he is 70?

That is right. He can get unemployment benefit.

I have heard everything now. It is suggested that the man who retires at 65, which is considered by CIE to be the retiral age, should sign at the labour exchange until he is 70. I am sure the Minister or whoever prepared the brief had a long look at the pension in order to find out in what way it could be made look a little respectable, because, on its own, without the supplement from the Department of Social Welfare, it would appear what it is, a very miserly sum.

That is for the people who are still working. Deputy O'Donnell referred to the people who have already left, the unfortunate who retired some years ago and who apparently now is nobody's responsibility. Even the trade union who were acting for him during his employment do not appear to have taken the interest they should have taken in his welfare. Apart from the few shillings which CIE gave him recently, he has nothing to which to look forward and he will be left until he dies in a very bad state. I thought I should bring this to the notice of the Minister because he, of all the Ministers of State, seems to have got the idea that social welfare benefit can be used in this way. It is not used by any other Minister or any other Department, and I wish the Minister would decide that he will not use it any more where his Department is concerned.

There is a reference in the Minister's speech to port development which I should like to quote:

The principal current improvement schemes are those for Galway, Wicklow and Arklow for which grants totalling nearly £500,000 have been approved. Grants of £15,000 and £17,000 have been approved for Sligo and Ballina respectively.

And here comes the gem:

Progress on works at Drogheda, for which a grant of £175,000 was approved, has been suspended pending the carrying out of the necessary technical investigations.

There are a few questions I should like to put to the Minister and to which I hope he will be able to give the answers when he is replying. When was this proposed development started? When were the investigations started and what have they cost to date? It appears that there is a great deal of bungling on somebody's part in Drogheda port. I live about six miles from the port. It is true that due to bad handling by somebody, the tonnage going into and out of the port is dropping. In fact every few months it happens that ships going into the port with loads are going out empty.

If any of the local people who live along the river are asked what is happening there, they can answer very easily, Some years ago some bright boy decided to go to Holland, I think, and buy a particular type of dredger which can suck sand but will not remove mud. The result is that the bed of the river is very badly blocked up. The mistake was made and a lot of money was paid for that dredger. The mistake should be admitted before the port of Drogheda is ruined. It has reached the stage now where many of the local merchants who would normally take in their produce through Drogheda port are now finding it more economical to take it in through Dublin port. I suggest that the Minister should take a personal interest in this matter before it gets completely out of hand. It is all right saying that investigations have to be carried out. I am aware of the investigations that have been carried out. Plans have been proposed and scrapped, and again plans have been proposed and scrapped, and somebody is paying for it all. Unless the Minister does something, the entire grant will have been expended and the work will not have been started.

I believe this is one of the reasons why certain industries which were to be developed on the banks of the Boyne have not been proceeded with. Nobody wants to be involved in starting an industry if there is a doubt about the future of the port. The Minister is aware that one industry was started halfway down the river on the Meath side. He and a retinue of officials went along there about 18 months ago to an official opening. The factory lasted less than 18 months, employed two men and then closed down. I am not blaming the Minister for that but he should take an interest in what is happening there because nobody else seems to be too worried about it. The easy way out is to avoid talking about these things because it might hurt somebody's feelings. I do not mind whose feelings are hurt in this connection. It is a matter which must be attended to and I would suggest the Minister is the man who can do it, if he so desires.

We are prepared to agree that tourism has been developing. The income from tourism seems to be growing but I am not prepared to accept the figures produced by certain persons who take a sample of the passengers coming in, ask them how much money they have, how much they propose to spend, and try to assess, on the basis of air travel or sea travel, the amount of money spent in the country by tourists.

One thing in which the Minister and his Department might interest themselves is the question of excessive charges. I believe a great deal of harm is being done to the tourist industry by the racket that goes on. If one goes into a town or village and does not speak with the local accent, one is immediately regarded as a tourist and the sky is the limit. The Minister might very well take an interest in that. Before going to the country, however, he might start checking on prices here in this city. We have reached the stage now when prices are going sky high. If the ninth round of wage increases is, as is alleged, reflected in the prices charged in hotels and cafes in this city all I can say is that if the workers got the full increase reflected in the prices of meals, they should be the best paid workers in the world. I am quite sure they did not get even a fraction of these increases.

It is high time someone took an interest in this bit of racketeering. Good meals may leave a pleasant taste but the prices charged leave a very bad taste. It is no use someone coming along tomorrow or the next day and saying that this is not true of his hotel or cafe. There are some hotels which try to keep prices to the bare minimum and give good value and service but there are far too many which take advantage of the tourist season, or something else, for the purpose of boosting their takings.

With regard to tourists, the Minister and I have disagreed before and I presume we will disagree again: I do not agree that someone who comes home on holiday from England is a tourist.

Certainly not.

The Tourist Board, if these people come for a certain period, seem to think they are tourists. I believe they would come home anyway, apart altogether from any activity by the Tourist Board.

The Deputy has not had time probably to read the brief. We give the percentage of real tourists: 73 per cent of the income comes from what the Deputy regards as tourists so it is not so bad.

I did not read that bit of the brief. I am not prepared to accept the check system used to distinguish between a real tourist and someone coming home on holidays. I do not think the system adopted reflects the true position. I do not know if the Minister has ever travelled tourist in a boat, but anybody who has knows the system used, and the one used in certain hotels. Even on planes a check is occasionally made. But that does not reflect the true position and there is no way I know of in which the actual figures can be obtained. I do not think it fair to say that only 25 per cent of the people who come here during the season are people coming on holiday to relatives and friends because, as far as I know, and I meet very many of them, the vast majority—we might as well face it—are those who were born and bred in this country.

It is income, not numbers.

If it is income, then I disagree even more profoundly with the Minister because the people who spend money are the working class people who come home with a few pounds in their pockets and who want to have a good time. So far as the so-called upper classes are concerned, they come here on a package deal and spend as little as possible. It is for these people we are building the big hotels. I notice some hotels have not been proceeded with, and I am not surprised. If we really want to encourage tourists, we will have to provide more facilities at a much lower level than the Intercontinental. The people who come here want reasonable accommodation at reasonable prices and they should get it.

That brings me to another point. The Tourist Board, for some extraordinary reason, seem to have the idea that the only resorts worth fostering are the really big ones. They spend money on these. There are beautiful resorts for which nothing is ever done. I live in the village of Laytown. The Laytown-Bettystown-Mornington strand cannot be beaten. How much will the Tourist Board spend on the improvement of that strand? After a great number of years, when the Meath County Council attempted to have a public park developed, the Tourist Board promised me and the chairman of the county council that they would give a substantial grant towards a park costing about £15,000. The actual offer made by the Board was £680 and before they would give that grant, they insisted on so many changes in the original plan that I have grave doubts now as to whether or not we are losing or gaining money by having anything at all to do with the Tourist Board.

Efforts should be made in places such as I have mentioned along the sea coast to give encouragement to local councils to bring tourists into these areas. Some type of suitable housing accommodation should be erected for this particular type of tourist, let it be subsidised small hotels, guesthouses or what-have-you. Money spent in that way would be a better investment than giving £750,000 for the building of a hotel to house millionaires who, when they come here, are not too anxious to part with their millions.

CIE are doing an excellent job with their bus tours. The only snag is that some of the roads the tours would like to take are not open to them because of their condition or because of too low railway bridges or too narrow road bridges.

Reference was made to the number of passengers carried by plane, both cross-channel and transatlantic. I have travelled quite a bit and I believe Aer Lingus and Aerlínte are supplying a service one does not get on any other airline by which I have travelled. I was amused last night to hear a radio announcement that the airlines had made a working profit. That is a very nice euphemism. We would all love to be able to carry on by declaring any income we got a working profit with someone in the background to subsidise our capital charges. The Minister would be better advised to point out that the working profit of over £1 million does not contain any element of repayment of the original money advanced or of the interest charges. This particular reference always amuses me. The general idea of the Government seems to be that rail and road transport must pay their way and we must not lose money on the operations of CIE but it is apparently all right to lose money on the operation of our air services. However, that is something we will have to live with.

In regard to mining, I am very glad one of the companies which came here some years ago—and I am happy to say I played a substantial part in introducing it here—to carry out a search for copper has succeeded in at least establishing that there is ore in this country and that they will be able to make a paying proposition out of it. I am referring to the people who came in originally as the Can-Erin Mine and are now connected with the Northgate Exploration Company. In the early years, and later, they found they were not getting the co-operation they should have got from the Department. I am not blaming the Minister for that. It was his predecessors and the people under them who were difficult to deal with. The company may not have struck oil, but they have struck silver and seem to be doing very well. I understand they expect it to be a paying proposition by September or October of this year. I am glad of that and I hope it will bring big revenue to the State.

The Minister and the Department were right, even though it was a sudden decision, to purchase the B & I Company. I hope, having purchased it, they will now attempt to give the service on that line which we always felt the people who formerly owned it should have given. Over the years we have had all sorts of complaints. The Minister was asked to make representations to the people across the water to improve the service. The number of boats at particular periods and the type of accommodation they were offering were condemned by practically everybody in the House. Now that the State owns the service, an effort should be made to see that the proper type of service and accommodation is given to our returning emigrants whether we call them tourists or simply natives coming home for a short holiday.

I consider Bord na Móna are doing an excellent job. From time to time we may have had differences with them from the trade union point of view. However, we have very good relations with them. The group of unions representing the employees seem to be able to handle the difficulties as they arise. They dealt very effectively with an unofficial strike last year when an attempt was made to close the briquette factories to bring out a certain point of view. The unions refused to allow this to happen. That is possibly the reason why relations between the unions and the company are so good.

I am glad Bord na Móna production is so high. Nobody likes to see some of the changes made. They have speeded up some of the machines with the result that people have to work a lot harder for less money. I suppose we will get over that, too. I am glad the briquettes are doing so well. Apparently, we will soon need more briquette factories. There seems to be a great demand, even an export demand, for briquettes. I was interested to note—I am sure the Minister will be, too—that when the discussions on the ESB strike were taking place, one of the companies that got instructions to close down all machines using over 100 KW was Bórd na Móna. The ESB must have known that these machines included those servicing the stations supplying the national grid. If that is not a stupid approach, I should like to know what is.

Brief reference was made to angling facilities. It is true that coarse fishing seems to have caught on here. It is also true that quite a number of old country houses considered to be going out of date are now being converted into guesthouses for the accommodation of people who come here on angling holidays. There is a matter in which the Minister might be able to help. Some of those houses were in very bad repair and the owners found it necessary to try to put them into proper condition before they could take in paying guests. When they applied to the Department of Local Government for a grant, the Department sent down an inspector who pointed out that, as they had not carried out repairs to the entire house, they were not eligible for some of the grants. The Minister might be able to help in that matter. I believe any accommodation made available under that heading will be taken up and used and will have a good effect on the country.

The ESB have been refusing service to quite a number of people in the country. This is a matter I have been discussing here with the Minister under various headings over the years.

Would the Deputy mind raising it on the Electricity Bill which will come before the House two weeks from now?

Before the Bill comes up, there is one particular point.

The Bill has already been introduced. I cannot help.

It is the old one about the people who are quoted service charges.

That will all arise on the Bill.

I know. I want to refer to cases where they have been quoted for current but, for one reason or other, do not take it. In three months' time, they apply for it again and are told that in the meantime the charges have been doubled.

The Deputy can raise that, too.

If I can, I will defer it. I also wanted to refer to the loss of power in particular areas, including the one I live in myself. This occurs at certain hours of the day and night, particularly on Sunday morning after first Mass when it seems to be twice as hard to cook as normally. The same thing happens at certain times in the evening. Even the television sets seem to suffer. A contracting black rim appears on the screen and you cannot even see the hurlers. This matter has been raised with the ESB who have promised to put in extra substations. However, that does not seem to have been done and months afterwards, we are still in the same position. I would like to know if something can be done about that.

I am glad to see the Minister is considering setting up a nuclear energy board. While he says it may be ten years before we reach the stage where we can use nuclear energy for power, we should not wait until such power is actually needed. If the necessary arrangements are made in time, we will not have the usual complaint that the Board were set up at the last minute and we have to wait five or six years before they produce results. I wish the Minister the best of luck with that. It will be difficult, even if there is cross-Border co-operation as well.

The provision of transport and power is, in a small nation, so important that nobody could begrudge the time given to a debate on it in all its aspects. When it is taken away from private enterprise and when the State enters more or less into the provision of these two facilities and the various other things allied with them, I feel that some criticism is always necessary if the public are to get the service which they are entitled to.

It appears over the years that it has been found economically necessary to close the branch lines. As I come here from the west of the country, I have always disagreed with this for the reason that it has never been found possible to provide an alternative service which is as good or as cheap to the public as the railway line is. Even though it has been promised from time to time that the people would get as good a service at the same cost, I have never seen that happen. CIE are doing a reasonably good job. The trains are comparatively good; the people who work on them are courteous and they give good service. I have had very few complaints from tourists and others about the way in which those people carry out their duties, the way in which the lines are run and the accommodation provided. If you have a Minister and a Ministry for Transport and Power more or less responsible for those things, it is a shame that in some cases they do not provide certain facilities for loading and unloading.

Wayside stations are still open and in many cases this causes trouble, loss and inconvenience to people who have to use the particular services at certain stations. I mention in particular the station at Ballyhaunis, the town from which I come. There is a small wayside station there and it has a little crane on the platform capable of loading about two tons. There is a meat factory in the town and the meat has to be transported in containers from that factory by CIE rail. It has to be taken on CIE lorries and brought 12 miles west of the station to the railway line which is actually within a couple hundred yards of the factory. It has to be brought 12 miles west and it comes back by the factory the following day.

Refrigerated containers are able to keep their products free from deterioration for only a certain limited time and any delays between the point at which they are loaded and the point at which they arrive will cause deterioration, with resultant loss to the person exporting the products. I see no reason in the world why a proper crane cannot be provided at wayside stations. It would not involve the Minister, the State or the taxpayer in an enormous amount of money to provide a crane capable of taking a container from the body of a truck and putting it on a railway car. There are many wayside stations where this service could be provided at no great cost to the community. It would be of great benefit to the people in the area, particularly industrialists.

I know, at this stage, it appears that the railways will contract more and more. That appears to be the modern conception. Supposing that does happen, the whole weight of the goods taken from the railway will have to be carried by road. Most of our main roads and county roads were built at a time when they had not to carry heavy loads. They had not to carry the same tonnage as they have to carry now by reason of the modern vehicles which are designed to take up to 30 tons with a trailer behind them. The maintenance of those roads will fall on the county rates. It was promised that money would be made available for making roads and reconstructing existing roads which will take the traffic diverted from the closing of railway lines but that has never happened. Sufficient money has not been provided to do this particular job and the maintenance of the roads has, at all times, fallen on the rates of the county. The rates in the west, and particularly in Mayo, are so high at the moment that it is impossible to provide more money for the maintenance of these roads. The amount of money necessary, not alone for the construction of new roads but for the reconstruction of existing roads should be provided from the Central Fund.

I come now to the ESB. I think the Minister said to a previous speaker that the Bill dealing with this matter was about to be brought before the House. I am new to the House and I am not too familiar with the procedure but I would like to make this point to the Minister with regard to ESB charges. We have gone to considerable expense to provide electricity service to more than 80 per cent of the homes in the country but we are not yet able to compete with gas and other facilities. This should not be so. Some incentive should be given to people in rural areas and indeed in all areas to turn completely to the ESB. If the charges were lowered, it would encourage everybody to make use of the national grid. After all, a good deal of it is produced from our rivers and our turf which do not involve imports. We have a refinery at Whitegate but the oils and other things which go into bottled gas have to be imported. Everything should be done to ensure that the ESB current is used, as far as possible, for everything in the country. The only way you can do that is by giving it at a reasonable charge to the consumer.

I should like to say something about turf. During the past few weeks we have been told that the price of turf is to be increased by about 7/- a ton. This is being done just before we go into the new production season. I see no justification at all for raising the price of home-produced turf. Turf is bought by the poorer sections of the community and they will be the hardest hit if there is a rise in price. Every effort should be made to keep turf supplies at the lowest possible cost to the consumer. This would be good policy and it can be done without subsidisation or anything like that. The people who live in cottages and in small towns have to buy Bord na Móna turf because, due to a number of conditions, they cannot find readily available hand-won turf. That hand-won turf is fairly costly. Bórd na Móna, with their huge organisation, should be able to produce it at a lower rate than even the small farmer and his family can produce it. It is unfortunate that the price of turf should have to be raised at this particular time.

Probably every aspect of the Department of Transport and Power was covered by other speakers. I am not familiar enough with the tourist end of it to say much about it but I should like to stress, as far as tourism is concerned, that, as mentioned by Deputy Tully, a big field of operation lies not amongst the type of tourist known as the upper class tourist—the huntin', shootin', fishin' type—but amongst the people who left our shores and went to Britain, America and other places and who would like to come home and spend a month or two, or even a week or two, in summer among their friends in Ireland. We are not doing quite enough to encourage them. Definitely, however, they have better conditions of travel between Britain and Ireland than they had some few years ago but it still leaves a lot to be desired.

I have seen people with families of four or five children who have had to travel for 36 hours on trains and boats between London and the west of Ireland and who arrived there jaded and absolutely worn out. Such a state of affairs is a shame but nobody seems to bother very much about it. I suppose that, in future, things will improve in that respect with the car ferries and the fact that we have taken over the B & I line and can now do something ourselves for those people. I should like to see a decided improvement in the travel conditions of such people in the future.

When they come here, lots of those people do not want to go into a high-class hotel. They love to go down into the country, to live in a country house and to eat our famous bacon and cabbage than which, they will tell you, there is nothing better in the world. Everything should be done to provide suitable facilities for them. I know the Minister has no function in the provision of grants for water and sewerage facilities in country houses but he might mention the matter to his colleague in Government for priority in areas with lakes suitable for development— of coarse fishing, in particular. Any money the Minister might spend in that respect would be money well spent. I compliment the Minister on things that have been done and I trust that the Department of Transport and Power will go ahead to provide better services in the years to come.

I did not intend to intervene in this discussion at all but I had a brief look through the Minister's statement last evening and I noticed that there was no mention of a couple of matters which I think are not unimportant. One is canals and the other is a branch of tourism. Certainly it has a connection with the attraction of tourists. I refer to the Tidy Towns Competitions which have been organised and promoted by the Minister's Department in the past few years.

I think there is a lack of liaison between the Minister's Department and the Department of Local Government and I refer, in particular, to the county councils. I have been a member of a county council since 1955. I feel that a great deal could be done if somebody in the Minister's Department had a sort of roving commission to go around any county and to consider ways and means by which seaside resorts could be improved and various tourist attractions and amenities could be provided through the Department of Local Government, with the co-operation of the local authority. He should take advantage of that position to come along occasionally or to send somebody along occasionally to make suggestions directly to the members of the local authority.

I have been present at a number of meetings in relation to the Tidy Towns Competitions. I have listened to the very useful advice given by people from the tourist organisation and noted the help and encouragement offered and I have seen what all that has led to. It is important to make our towns and villages attractive. It is hard to define what exactly brings people to a country and what makes their visit and their holiday pleasant for them. However, the appearance of our towns and villages is extremely important and this is work which has been encouraged although no reference was made to it by the Minister yesterday.

With more direct contact between the local people, the tourist organisation and the Department of Local Government, that is the county councils, a lot could be achieved in this direction.

I referred to canals. Yesterday evening, I heard some Deputy refer to the improvement in the boating holidays on the Shannon. I am aware that quite a lot of people now go out as far as the 12th lock, which is fairly near Lucan, to lower their boats at that point and to go from that point. There is a short distance of canal bank there. I am not exaggerating when I say that there are potholes 18 inches deep at that point and no facilities whatsoever for lowering boats into or taking boats out of the canal. Many people are anxious to bring their boats out that distance because they are immediately in the countryside: I think that that is what they want. I have made an effort to get the local authority to take charge of this small section of the bank. The advice of the engineer and of the legal adviser to the council was that it was not of sufficient public utility, though how exactly they arrive at what is or is not public utility, I cannot say.

Some effort should be made to make such places attractive, to make them look well and to make it easy for people to get their boats into and out of the canal. Everything possible should be done to encourage boating and that type of holiday and to improve that type of amenity but it is very difficult to get anything done.

Further in relation to canal banks and canals, I have been in trouble over the years, as a public representative, in relation to the taking in charge of the canal banks which are badly kept roads, in many cases leading to a good many people's houses. I remember some years ago we agreed to take one of these banks in charge and we had extreme difficulty with CIE in getting permission to take it. The form of agreement presented to us in Dublin County Council could not possibly be accepted by any responsible local authority. Considerable discussion was necessary on the part of the deputation who went to discuss with officials in CIE afterwards in an effort to get a reasonable agreement whereby a bank could be taken over and improved by the local authority.

These are roadways leading to many people's houses and in the past they were kept in a reasonable condition by the authorities who then owned them. Now they are in a shocking condition and are nobody's property. CIE have more or less abandoned them but they are still in their ownership and I think something more definite should be done about them. A greater interest should be taken in canals generally, if we hope to maintain and develop them as a tourist attraction here. I believe they can be used for that purpose and that they can lead towards the Shannon boating arrangement, which has developed very well indeed in recent years.

Another point that caught my attention in looking at the Minister's statement was the recent surveys that have been made of traffic in various areas in the Dublin district. These surveys showed that 500 extra bus seats were required in the Ballyfermot area. I am aware that agitation for extra buses in the Ballyfermot area has been going on for years and that for some unknown reason little or nothing has been done about it. It had to go on for a long period before positive action was taken. The proof is there and it was most remiss of CIE to have this agitation going on for so long without making any attempt to supply the needs. The fact that 500 seats were required as an extra is proof positive that there was neglect there.

In other areas as well—Crumlin, Walkinstown, and so on—the survey produced evidence to indicate that extra buses were required at certain times in the morning and in the evening. This sort of thing should be continuously under observation because the movement and the growth of population in the various areas in County Dublin is fantastic at the present time. Unless this is kept constantly under review, the services will not be kept up to anything like what they should be.

Side by side with this there is the position that there are areas where buses travel practically empty for a considerable portion of the journey. That, too, is not kept under sufficient observation and perhaps certain economies could be effected, or a better service provided, by altering the time of one bus and not having two buses running together with both of them half empty. I have constantly seen that happen. It may be that farther on on the journey passengers are picked up and that, on the whole, it is a service that must be kept running for reasons not easily seen by the casual observer.

There are areas, too, where it is not just good enough for a public transport company to say:-"We cannot give you a service because it would not be economic." A public transport organisation that has a monopoly should, where necessary, provide a service, even though it happens to be uneconomic initially. One of the reasons why it might be uneconomic at the outset is that people have been trying other ways and means of getting to their destinations. If a bus service were provided, it might not be economic at the start, but as time went on, it would. It is lack of amenities of that sort that keeps people from living distances more remote from the city.

We get some measurement of the need for transport in the area of Ballyfermot when we find that the result of the survey indicated a need for 500 extra seats. It would be interesting to know the total number of people transported from Ballyfermot into the city each day. It must be a fantastic figure. I am aware that most of these people were moved out, not by their own choice, a considerable distance from the city centre. Quite a large number of them are employed as far down as the East Wall. I remember when the last bus strike took place, the extreme hardship those people suffered, and the distances they had to walk were unbelievable.

This is a part of my constituency and I meet these people frequently and I know their anxiety about the possibility of a bus strike taking place at the end of this week. We all hope the strike will be averted and I sincerely hope it will. Nobody wants it. I would ask the Minister to consider as a priority places such as Ballyfermot where we have a working-class population. There is a population of 33,000 in Ballyfermot at the moment and the bulk of those have to come into the city to work because there are practically no local opportunities for employment in that area. There are practically no opportunities for vocational education either. For many other reasons as well, the people have to come into the city, whether they like it or not. Transport is as important to them as bread. They are not in the class of citizen who can afford alternative transport. I sincerely hope the Minister will have emergency transport put on for those people in the event of a bus strike. But, as I say, we all hope it will not arise.

First of all I should like to say that, with the exception of about two Deputies, this debate has been on a very high level of constructive criticism, and helpful suggestions and advice were given. There were very welcome compliments in regard to the activities of the various State companies and in some cases in regard to my own Department. In fact, it has been an excellent example of constructive discussion on an important phase of Government.

I do not know whether I need to repeat again, for the third year, a statement on the question of the control of the State companies and the answering of Questions in the Dáil. Perhaps for the sake of the record, I should remind the few Deputies who spoke about this what the position actually is. First of all, my Department exercises a general directive upon all State companies in connection with the Second Programme for Economic Expansion. We have continuous discussions with them. Matters of policy are discussed in relation to their presentation to us of capital demands and in relation to discussion on their annual reports. I meet the boards of all these State companies at reasonably frequent intervals and I continuously meet the managers, chairmen and managing directors of these companies.

Deputies have very adequate opportunities here for discussing all matters relating to my Department on the occasion of the Estimate, and on the occasion of the frequent Bills which either organisational changes, or capital changes, or a combination of both, make necessary. In that connection, as an illustration, there will be ample opportunity for discussing the four State companies this year: the Shannon Free Airport Development Company, the Electricity Supply Board, the Air Companies, and later on Bórd Fáilte in connection with some legislation which is anticipated.

In addition to that, if Deputies feel there is some important matter of interest in relation to a particular State company there can be a resolution to discuss the annual report of the company. In addition as I have already made clear, I take note of all the observations made during the course of the Estimate discussion, and discussions on other occasions. In order to ensure that there are no repetitive complaints of various kinds we make a very careful examination of all the complaints that come to the Department from Deputies, and from the general public, and if they appear to be repetitive they are discussed with the Board concerned. If they raise questions of policy, again they are discussed with the Board concerned. This is a continuous process that is going on the whole time.

This procedure is quite different from the perpetual asking of questions on day to day matters of administration. In my view, and in the view of many other Ministers in the same office as myself in other countries, this would submit the State companies to impossible pressure. If for example it were the custom to ask questions in the Dáil about every bus service in the country, it would be impossible to avoid the type of political pressure that would result from Deputies acting locally, and making observations on these matters, and it would be quite impossible for CIE to conduct their business properly.

Having said that, it is quite possible for me to watch the general picture of bus transport in this country, and to analyse the complaints made about the deficiencies in the bus services. The full statement prepared in the Pacemaker Report shows the tremendous degree to which CIE are running a social service, exemplified by the very high proportion of bus services that lose money, and the very small proportion which mercifully make a surplus which results in the whole bus operation being remunerative to a very modest degree.

The same applies to the freight service. Discussions are held with the National Farmers Association, and with the National Livestock Federation, on occasion in relation to the transport of cattle and agricultural produce. In that way we are able to get a fair picture by which we can judge the efficiency of the State enterprise, without at the same time coming under the day to day political pressure, which would inevitably result in the most undesirable form of political control and eventual inefficiency. I believe most members of the House accept that general principle.

As I said before, emotionally I would dearly love to answer every question put to me because I have an intense personal desire to know absolutely everything that goes on in all the State companies, which incidentally would be intellectually and physically impossible for me, or for anyone else in my position. If all the questions asked were allowed I would be driven into an impossible position. To put it another way, it is annoying for me to have to refuse, in the public interest, to answer questions on day to day administration, which would eventually result in the wrong kind of pressure being brought to bear on the State companies, so I have to go through the much less pleasant process —although it is an interesting one—of analysing complaints and replying in great detail to discussions on Estimates and on Bills, and doing my utmost to give the right kind of information which shows the general trend in regard to the actions taken by all the State companies, their efficiency, their policy, and the general directives we give them.

I propose on this occasion to take the time of the House to give in fair detail replies to all the questions that have been raised by Deputies. It will take me some time, but I am doing it because last night I looked through the ambit of all the questions asked and I realised that I should answer nearly all of the questions to relieve the minds of some Deputies who think there is some kind of secrecy attaching to the operations of the State companies, and the minds of Deputies who have now had an opportunity of ventilating their grievances. I propose to take some time giving a detailed reply on all those matters.

First of all I think I should say in connection with the presentation of the annual report of CIE that I do not think I was entirely fair to the company when I referred to the fact that the loss was greater in 1964-65 than in 1963-64 because of the effect in the previous year of the bus strike. I think I should make it clear that the saving of £525,000 on subsidy required a tremendous effort on the part of the whole staff. I do not think I emphasised sufficiently that that effort was required because wages and salaries and depreciation increases exceeded to a considerable extent the effect of the fare increases which were an inevitable result of the ninth round increase in wages and salaries. In order to do that, a tremendous effort had to be made to gain more traffic, to indulge in still greater productivity exercises, and to provide better and better services.

Having read the Pacemaker Report, and having analysed the financial position of CIE during the past five years, it is my view that but for all the reorganisation work undertaken, the impetus towards a sales policy, and the development of a sales organisation within CIE, and all the other steps taken to increase output, the loss would be between £3¼ million and £4 million, which would be a further impost on the taxpayers.

Deputy Clinton referred to the improvement in the Ballyfermot bus service and said this improvement was overdue. In my view an examination of bus service requirements must be undertaken scientifically. In that connection the need for the extra buses might not have arisen but for the fact that there was a worsening of the bus service due to bunching in Dublin slowing up the whole operation. After the quite obvious growth of congestion of traffic in Dublin, CIE undertook a modern scientific survey using computers to analyse the origin and destination of all tickets which resulted in this improvement in the service. May I add that I understand this new type of operation is capable of being applied at reasonable intervals, and Deputies need have no fear that CIE will lose touch with the general bus passenger requirement position in the future. Now that they have this new technique, they will be even more rapid in making the necessary changes in the bus services.

I should also make it clear that if Deputy Clinton reads the Second Reading debate on the 1964 Transport Act, he will find full particulars of the very large number of Dublin bus services that lose money and he will find that again, luckily, there are certain bus services extremely profitable, though the fare basis is exactly the same, which helps to make up for the losses on the services which, as he says, are run for social reasons—the fact that people must be transported from their homes to their places of work and for other reasons. At a recent date the total profit on the Dublin bus services was the equivalent of one-seventh of a penny per passenger journey.

Deputies Barrett and Lyons raised the question of whether any other branch lines are likely to close. Of course, the answer is that, again if the Pacemaker Report is studied, it will be found there are few routes where there could be a marginal decision one way or another, that the main closures have already been effected as far as the general ambit of CIE operations under the present act is concerned.

I might add in that connection that where a bus service replaced a rail service and freight services on the railway were replaced by a lorry service, in quite a number of areas the actual traffic increased. That is particularly noticeable in parts of west Cork where the amount of the traffic increased, where the time taken to transport the goods was reduced and the actual ambit of the services improved. I would say that in general I have had very few complaints of poor substitute services.

Deputy Casey made a rather sensational speech and I do not propose to follow him along the lines on which he travelled when making his speech except to say to him that I utterly refute the charges he made in regard to political discrimination on the question of redundancy on CIE. If he has such very serious charges to make, he should make them to me directly and I shall have them investigated. All the arrangements for the carrying out of redundancy provisions under the Transport Act were made under an agreement between the unions and the executive of CIE and I have not had any suggestions during the whole period that there had been discrimination. If there had been, the Deputy can be certain I would have been the first to hear it and I am glad the Deputy accepted my word that I had no hand, act or part, directly or indirectly, in any political discrimination in respect of those who were declared redundant and in respect of those retained in the CIE service.

Deputy Casey suggested that the numbers of the executive staff of CIE had increased and that when this was compared with those rendered redundant it could be seen the executive staff were being taken care of, that extra jobs were being provided and so forth. In 1958 the executive staff of CIE amounted to 1.3 per cent of the total CIE staff and by 1965 the executive staff amounted to 1.6 per cent of the total, having increased by 14 per cent from 281 persons to 332 persons. The extra number appointed were mainly concerned with efforts to increase the productivity of the CIE traffic sector, with sales organisation and with the type of change in method of working of CIE which inevitably involved closer attention to costs accountancy and high productivity. Nobody could say that represents a change through which the staff of CIE in the lower wage grades were discriminated against by the appointment of increased numbers of executive staff.

Deputy Casey said he understood the whole of the road freight services of CIE were now under examination and implied drastic changes might take place without the Dáil hearing about it or even myself hearing about it. Every branch of CIE has been under examination for quite a number of years and the road freight sector came under examination recently, as I indicated in my opening speech; but anything that involved changes in the whole position of the national transport services for road freight would naturally have to come to me for approval and would indeed possibly involve legislation.

All these matters would be examined. CIE have a social obligation to provide road freight services as far as possible all through the country. The majority of these services already lose money but nevertheless there is an obligation on CIE to provide them, if there is a case for making marginal changes and syphoning off some portions of the services and liberalising them when the total services could still be as good as they were in the past that would be a matter for examination. The suggestion by Deputy Casey that the whole of the road freight services of CIE might be abandoned without consideration of the effect on public needs is completely without foundation.

Deputy Molloy raised the question of some differentiation in fares as between Dublin to Galway and Galway to Dublin. This might be due to the fact that there were different kinds of excursion rates offered at either end but I am quite certain there was no prejudice against Galway. If he would like to give me the particulars I shall have the matter examined.

Deputy O'Hara raised the question of the closing of Foxford station and made the allegation that it had been operating at a profit. If he reads the Pacemaker Report, he will see how the profits and losses of CIE lines were carefully examined, that examination was made of receipts and expenditure over particular sections of line and that the proportion of overhead expenses and fixed charges was applied to every sector of line in order to determine its profitability. He can be assured that CIE do not close any line or station that makes a profit after all factors are taken into consideration.

Deputy O'Hara mentioned some goods that were rotting as a result of poor service by CIE. I should be glad if he gave me particulars of that when I shall ask CIE for a report. He raised the question of why passengers who left Ballina for Dublin by the combined bus and rail services were not able to purchase through tickets. That is a good point and I shall take up with CIE why people cannot purchase through tickets where a bus service is specifically linked with an arterial service and, indeed, particularly where, during some parts of the day, there are actually rail services in operation. There is a rail service the whole way from Ballina to Dublin and also a service from Claremorris to Dublin with a bus connection from Ballina. I shall ask CIE about that matter.

Progress reported: Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 15th June, 1965.
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