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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 15 Feb 1966

Vol. 220 No. 10

Adjournment Debate. - Drumcondra Road (Dublin) Subpostoffice.

Last Thursday I asked the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs "if a new subpostmaster has been appointed to Drumcondra Road subpostoffice and, if so, if he will state the name of the person appointed, his age and qualifications; whether suitable premises are available; if so, where; whether the present acting sub-postmistress applied for the position; and, if so, why she was not appointed."

The Minister replied that Mr. Thomas F. Gray had been appointed; he had "offered suitable premises in Lower Drumcondra Road near the present suboffice which he expected to be able to provide. It now transpires that he is unable to provide these premises and he is endeavouring to secure alternative premises in the area."

I accuse the Minister of having engaged in political patronage in this appointment. I accuse him of having perpetrated a grave act of injustice. He has appointed this gentleman, the chairman of the Fianna Fáil executive in the adjoining constituency of Dublin North Central, a man, who, two years ago, was co-opted as a Fianna Fáil member of the Dublin City Council.

I would refer the Minister now to a form with which he ought to be familiar, Form M.P. 188 of his Department. That is the official form of application upon which applicants are required to furnish their personal particulars when applying for positions as subpostmasters or subpostmistresses. This form has emblazoned across the top the following admonishment: "Political influence must not be sought in support of this application. The appointment is made solely with a view to the efficiency of the service and on an impartial comparison of the qualifications of the candidates." It is furthermore my information—the Minister will correct me if I am wrong; I invite him to do so—that there is in the rules of the post office service a specific prohibition on participation by subpostmasters in any political activity. Form M.P. 188 refers to an impartial comparison of the qualifications of the candidates. Such a comparison has not been made in this case. The facts are irrefutable and can be neither denied nor contradicted.

Mr. Gray, the Minister informed me, is 64 years of age. He is, in fact, a retired official of Dublin Corporation. He, I presume, like other retired corporation officials, enjoys a retirement pension. The person who is at present acting as subpostmistress is a Miss K. Farrell. She is in her early thirties. She has worked in this office for the past eight years under two subpostmistresses; first, under Miss Haslam and subsequently under Mrs. Dooly, who was appointed five years ago. In actual fact, for the past five years, Miss Farrell has done most of the work in this subpostoffice. She is highly experienced, highly thought of in the area and well liked by the customers. When Mrs. Dooly retired four or five months ago, Miss Farrell was appointed acting subpostmistress in her place. She bought the goodwill of the little tobacconist's shop which is run in these premises. She enjoys a tenancy of the premises.

It is the invarible practice to require applicants for these posts to set out on Form M.P. 188 the premises in which they propose to operate the post office. They are required to go into considerable detail in regard to the terms of their tenancy and related technical matters. Mr. Gray is now in the position that he has no premises available and my information is that he will find it extremely difficult to get a premises. Many of the shopkeepers in the area who were contemplating applying for the post did not do so in deference to Miss Farrell's application. I am told, indeed, that at least one applicant withdrew his application when he learned what the position was.

There is acute indignation in the area because of what has happened. The whole thing is extremely unfortunate. I have no wish to detain the House or the Minister in discussing this small but by no means unimportant matter. When this State was set up 45 years ago, one of the first acts was to set up the Appointments Commission, of which, I think, you, Sir, are chairman. This body was appointed for the purpose of ensuring that public positions are filled by those best qualified to discharge the duties of the particular office for the purpose of removing all taint of patronage from appointments to the Civil Service and the public services generally.

To suggest that a 64 year old man —I should be interested to know if his birth certificate was, in fact, inspected by the Department—a man enjoying a retirement pension is suitably qualified to discharge the duties of a subpostoffice adequately is patently absurd. To suggest he is better qualified than the young lady with eight years' experience of the work borders on the ludicrous. It is clear now that an impartial comparison of the candidates was not, in fact, made. Again, I accuse the Minister of exercising political patronage for the benefit of this member of his political Party. I invite the Minister to state whether or not there is in the rules of the Post Office a specific prohibition against participation in politics and, further, to tell us if Mr. Gray is, in fact, going to resign from the Fianna Fáil Party. He has taken the bite out of the mouth of this decent little woman, this man who enjoys at least one public pension and maybe two. The Minister is perpetrating an act of injustice.

I do not know that there is an awful lot more to say about it, except perhaps, that this sort of thing has happened before. Several years ago there was the notorious so-called Battle of Baltinglass—and in fairness, let it be said that neither the Minister nor his Party was in office at the time —about the schemozzle of the subpostmistress in Baltinglass. That was an act of injustice, as is this.

It is time we rose above this form of political patronage, which is a festering sore in the political life of this country. It is the sort of thing which makes people cynical about politics and politicians. It is the sort of action which brings discredit to all of us and I implore the Minister to set a new tone in the affairs of his Department. If he does so, he will rid himself, and all his successors, of bally-ragging and string-pulling in these petty public appointments; string-pulling to which Ministers of State ought not be subject.

I recall ten or 12 years ago the case of a very decent man who was a member of Dublin Corporation in the labour interest, Walter Breathnach. He was a postman and he was given the choice by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs of giving up his job as a postman or resigning from the corporation. He gave up his job as a postman.

It is a long standing tradition in the public service in this country, at Civil Service level, that participation in politics is taboo. It is a good tradition and one which should be adhered to on every side of public administration. In this year of grace, 1966, when we are celebrating the 50th anniversary of the Rising, it ill becomes the Minister to suggest that because this man holds a military service medal— presumably for old IRA service—he is, therefore, entitled to preference over this decent little woman whose livelihood is being taken from her. It is not the sort of thing for which the IRA came out and fought 50 years ago. They would be the first to disown the Minister's action.

I want to know from the Minister has Mr. Gray yet furnished the address of a suitable premises. It is a fact that persons appointed to these positions are required to make their premises available and I understand it is quite without precedent for a Department of State to lean over backwards and give a person extended time to furnish a premises. I hope the Minister, in his reply, will succeed in doing something he did not succeed in doing last week, that is, avoid personalities. I am sorry that none of my colleagues from North-East Dublin is here tonight. I regard the absence of the Government Deputies for my constituency as their repudiation of the Minister's action.

There is little more for me to say on the matter, except, once more, to renew my plea of a few moments ago, and quietly and dispassionately, to urge the Minister—whom we all respect—to bring a new look to bear on the affairs of his Department and, in this year of grace, to implement the noble theory of the Proclamation of 1916—"To cherish all the children of the nation equally". That is not being done in this case. I could say that with much greater passion and more vehemently but I am deliberately restraining myself to say these things quietly to the Minister in the hope that some constructive good will come of this development, to appeal to him, even at this late stage, to rectify the injustice he has perpetrated, and to warn him that this is not the end of the affair.

I should be grateful, Sir, if you would facilitate my colleague, Deputy Ryan, for the remaining time.

The Minister last week assured us that Councillor Gray had, as a condition of his appointment, to provide premises. The Minister gave us also to understand that Councillor Gray had conveyed to the interview board information which gave them grounds for believing that the premises would be made available. The Minister now knows that whatever information was given has not been justified by subsequent events and that Mr. Gray has no premises available. This is utterly and completely deplorable and is an indication of the person's total unfitness for the job.

Not having premises available for himself, he has since endeavoured to bring unpleasant pressure to bear upon the existing acting subpostmistress. Having sought from her a sub-tenancy which was refused, he again entered her premises with a second request for a sub-tenancy which she again refused and, not being satisfied with that refusal, he then resorted to the solicitors for the ground landlords of the premises in an endeavour to purchase the ground landlords' interests for the purpose of compulsorily buying out this tenant, or compulsorily evicting her from the premises. I do not know if that is what the Minister and his advisers regard as being the kind of method which would be justified to make premises available for Mr. Gray but it is utterly and completely deplorable and there is no person in this city who would not repudiate that kind of conduct. In no circumstances can this person acquire the premises of the present subpostmistress, who has some principle and who will not house in her premises the person appointed under these particular circumstances.

It would also seem to be apt that the Department should, in all cases, consider the capital cost involved in changing post office premises from one place to another. Again, we do not know the particular location of the would-be post office, but this we do know, that even if it had existed, it would have involved considerable expense in moving telephone and other equipment from a premises situate there for over 30 years——

Over 50 years.

I am told these premises have been in use for over 50 years as a subpostoffice and yet it can all be changed overnight because of the appointment of a man who is a Fianna Fáil city councillor and chairman of the Fianna Fáil Party in Dublin North-Central. His association with that type of patronage is not new. He was appointed to Dublin Corporation to replace another man—Councillor Macken—another Fianna Fáil Councillor who was appointed as film censor. Is there to be no end to the series and succession of acts of patronage on the part of Fianna Fáil? As Deputy P. Byrne for the area has people, it simply remains for us to speak of the indignation of all decent speak the indignation of all decent people who are appalled that the Government should be so brazen in this exercise of patronage.

This dramatisation of an ordinary function of mine could occur here practically every day the Dáil sits, if some person on one side or the other wished to take the same action. Subpostoffices are being allocated to different applicants since I was born, and none of us has any illusion as to how it is done.

Political patronage.

It is finally the Minister's prerogative to make the decision. That is the decision I have made now. That is what I am here to defend tonight. Practically every week the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs makes these decisions in respect of one subpostoffice or another somewhere in the country. The procedure followed the same lines all along. Let me say that irrespective of whether it was Fine Gael, the inter-Party Government, or Fianna Fáil, who appointed them, by and large they got reasonably good all round subpostmasters and subpostmistresses, but some years ago, as the Deputy said, there was a glaring case of what the public thought was victimisation in some part of the country and there was a great to-do about it. Following that the system was changed, and this made it infinitely easier for any Minister for Posts and Telegraphs to make these appointments since then.

A change for the worse.

It was decided that an independent board would, in all cases, go into the applications of the different people interested, assess their merits, and ultimately place on a list the names of those whom they considered to be qualified. Not more than three names would be on that list. Any person who has held the office of Minister for Posts and Telegraphs will confirm what I say. This board very carefully vets the qualifications of all concerned from every aspect and finally submits not more than three names. In this case, three names were submitted to me. I have the particulars here but unlike the other speaker, I am not going to try to denigrate in any way the qualifications of any of the others in order to put one of them on a pedestal. I will say this: the person I appointed was on that list and in my opinion, was not merely qualified but was best qualified for the post.

Was he first on the list? Is he not too old?

I did not interrupt and you can take it now. I appointed him for a number of reasons which I am prepared to stand over anywhere. In the first place, he is a respectable person. He is——

Chairman of a Fianna Fáil cumann.

——suitably qualified. He is in good health, and he is solvent.

Did a doctor examine him?

(Interruptions.)

Surely the Minister is entitled to make his statement?

These are the qualifications we can stand over if anyone tries to blackguard him. I am not objecting to anyone trying to dramatise a situation like this, but it should be done without trying to run down the other persons concerned. The applicant in this case is a decent respectable man. I want to say this: we are all politicians and we have frequently said here that not enough people in this country take an interest in politics.

No wonder.

We have been told now that if a person is interested in politics, he must be passed over when appointments are being made for which he is fully qualified.

For a Civil Service job, yes.

I do not care what the job is—Civil Service or otherwise. I hope we have passed the stage of victimising people because they have a particular line of politics.

What about the Post Office rules?

When the Deputy was talking, I did not interrupt him once. I only have ten minutes and the Deputy had 20 minutes. He made a poor job of it in those 20 minutes. He tried to blackguard one person. This man has politics, thanks be to God. I do not see what is wrong with that. I know thousands of people who have politics. I know hundreds of people with political views who were appointed by Fine Gael. Deputy Oliver Flanagan boasted a few weeks ago that he would always use influence so far as possible where patronage was concerned in appointments.

That was an irresponsible statement.

I can assure Deputies of one thing. All the people put on the list by the board were perfectly capable, entitled and qualified to run for that office. I am not going to run down—as the previous speaker did —any of the applicants. There were eight. I will not go into their qualifications.

Tell us about his experience.

If the Deputy cannot take it, he should keep quiet. He added a few years to the girl's age and that was a disservice to her.

On a point of order, I have stated what I believe to be this lady's age, namely, about 30 years.

We cannot discuss her age.

I am allowed ten minutes to reply and I do not want any gimmicks to put me off what I want to say. I am talking about the age the Deputy gave here.

(Interruptions.)

The Deputy should say what he has said outside here.

Tell us about the corporation pension.

Repeat in the corporation the slanders you have perpetrated here. I want to say finally that these three people were qualified in every way and it was a question of making a decision. This girl has worked for four years as a subpostoffice assistant. I made a regulation the other day that a subpostoffice assistant with ten years' service will be qualified to take over by transferring —something which no other Minister for Posts and Telegraphs ever thought of doing before. We are not going to equate four years' service with ten years' service. Tom Gray has——

Was he ever in a post office? Was he in the GPO?

He has a military service record of which he can be proud. He was not considered too old when he took part in the emergency as a member of the LDF. I am proud that in 1966, on the 50th anniversary of the insurrection, to pay tribute to a man of his calibre. I am not ashamed because I can stand over his qualifications. He is highly respected by everyone. He is a decent man. He has all the ability that is necessary. I appointed him on 17th December and when it was discovered that he had difficulty in getting premises—and this happens to many applicants—this gimmick was started in order to try to upset the appointment, and for no other reason. Why not do the same thing in the case of the other offices I filled in the past month? They were filled in the same manner. The names were submitted by the board and a selection was made. I can assure Deputies that anyone this board passes is a sound and efficient subpostmaster or subpostmistress.

Did the board place him third or first?

I said no such thing.

The Minister has not yet told us.

The Deputy might be surprised. No one in this House has given a placing to anyone so far. It is sufficient to say they were all qualified. Eight applicants were screened and three were put on the list, and that is good enough for me. I do not think there would have been one word about this, good, bad or indifferent, if Tom Gray had walked into some premises the day after he was appointed.

He could not.

Deputies are trying by talking about injustice and by creating emotion to dramatise the situation and to upset the appointment. If an applicant is unable to get suitable premises, I am always prepared to give him a reasonable chance to get them, and if ultimately he cannot get them, I will always consider the circumstances again. The other question I want to mention is the question of political affiliations. There is nothing against anyone with political affiliations getting a subpostoffice.

Provided he is Fianna Fáil.

There is nothing in the rules to say he must not have politics. What is said is that people who are subpostmasters must not take an active part in politics—a different thing. I hope none of the Deputies on the other side, because they have many friends whom they appointed——

Why do you not sack them?

We are not that type. I should like to ask this: is there a single appointment you made during your terms of office that was not a political appointment?

Whom are you addressing?

Deputy Dillon refused to do that.

He was never Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

Change the bad old ways.

(Interruptions.)

Do not try to shout me down. The one thing I deprecate more than anything else is that this was not discussed in a calm dispassionate way without trying to put someone on a pedestal at the expense of running down a decent applicant. That is exactly what Deputy Byrne tried to do. The previous speaker could not do it but he took it on himself to do it. I will not for one moment try to highlight the qualifications of Tom Gray by running down the girl who did not succeed. I hope this will serve as an example, because every time a subpostoffice is filled, there are a number of people who are not appointed, and someone could come into this House and dramatise the situation on behalf of some of the unsuccessful candidates. That could go on for all time.

The Dáil adjourned at 11.5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 16th February, 1966.

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