Deputy Moore.
Committee on Finance. - Vote 28—Office of the Minister for Education (Resumed).
Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a supplementary sum not exceeding £95,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1966, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Education (including Institutions of Science and Art), for certain Miscellaneous Educational and Cultural Services and sundry Grants-in-Aid.
Deputy Burton rose.
I reported progress last night, Sir.
I know, but the Deputy was speaking immediately after another Fine Gael Deputy. It is not the practice of the House to call two Deputies of the same Party one after another.
But Deputy Burton reported progress, Sir.
That does not give him a guarantee he will be called.
Was Deputy Moore in the House at the time?
Deputy Burton offered. I did not say he was entitled to speak. He got to his feet and said he reported progress. That would give a chain of speakers to the same Party and I will not allow that.
They were the only speakers offering at the time.
Speakers offered from both the Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael side of the House.
Will Deputy Burton be allowed to speak later?
Of course.
Is the Deputy who reports progress not entitled to speak first the next day?
When he speaks and reports progress, he is entitled to resume.
There was only a minute left and he got up to speak.
He got up and said he reported progress.
The time was out.
The time was out, so he could not have been speaking. I am calling Deputy Moore.
In the event of Deputy Burton reporting progress, if Deputy Burton did not happen to be here today, does that mean he loses his place as a speaker?
I would call the speaker who offered on the opposide side after Deputy O'Donnell spoke on this side.
(Cavan): The point seems to be whether Deputy Burton was in fact in possession when the House adjourned last night. I was not here.
I did not call Deputy Burton. When I got into the Chair, I said "Progress reported". There was no Deputy in possession. It is not the practice to call two Deputies of the same Party one after the other. It is not the first time Deputy L'Estrange has challenged my statements.
(Interruptions.)
On a point of order, there was a minute left and Deputy Burton got up and reported progress.
Deputy Burton did not speak and I did not call him.
Nobody offered from the far side.
No Deputy is entitled to speak without being called by the Chair. I did not call Deputy Burton. Deputy L'Estrange will resume his seat.
Nobody offered from the far side.
I should like to refer to the position of vocational education in the city of Dublin. I would preface my remarks by paying tribute to the Minister for his dedication in the field of education and the wonderful results he has brought about in many aspects of education in which I am interested outside this House.
In the city of Dublin at the moment, we are faced with a very serious decision as regards vocational training for boys and girls. Last year, we had 600 boys who could not be taken into schools because we had no space for them. It is a tribute to Deputy Hillery, the previous Minister for Education, that that number was cut very much indeed. We look forward this year to the fact that, under the present Minister, we shall wipe out this deficit in pupil space. If we cannot take a boy into the vocational school, it means that that boy may be denied the right of ever serving his time to a trade.
The City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee has a huge programme on hands. I make a plea for special consideration for the city in order that we may carry out this vast programme. At the moment, the city is trying to provide schools in Coolock, Ballyfermot, Ballymun, Rathmines, Ringsend, the North Strand and other places. The ratepayers, this year, will contribute £306,000 towards the cost of education.
In the city, we ask no man where he comes from, if he seeks education in the schools. At the moment, there are 27,000 people in the schools, including the boys and girls in the day classes. This year, the total expenditure in the city will be £1,600,000. This is a vast sum and thanks to the Minister for, first of all, some time ago examining the pay of teachers in the schools. The teachers' conditions were improved very much indeed but this cost money and, this year, we have to face an increase of £300,000 for education—and this is purely vocational education.
I would ask the Minister to look at the city, as apart from the rest of the country, because this programme of ours will cost many millions of pounds. At the same time, there is a great degree of urgency. I do not think any of us would be happy if even one boy or girl is denied the right of post-primary education in our vocational schools and this is particularly so in the case of boys as it may mean a handicap by the loss of a trade which they will carry for the rest of their lives.
There is another aspect which I would ask the Minister to consider and, actually, he has already done this. Some time ago, I asked him if he proposes to increase the field of scholarships. The Minister replied that he proposes to introduce legislation whereby local authorities may increase the number of scholarships with suitable Government backing. If we are to advance and if we are to fulfil our hopes for the country, it is terribly essential that vocational education be given a primary place in the scheme of things. No parent today wants to see his child finish his education in a primary school. I venture to say that each one of us, irrespective of the side of the House we may occupy, believes we must increase the opportunities for post-primary education, whether it be in a secondary or in a vocational school.
With further industrialisation, the vocational schools will play a much bigger part than they have done in the past in preparing our youth to face life and, by their efforts, to contribute to the wealth of the country. Under the existing laws, a local authority can contribute only a certain amount to the vocational education programme. In Dublin city—and I am sure it is the same with other authorities—it is the product of 2/- in the £. In Dublin, this means about £300,000. This is all we can contribute in Dublin Corporation. We should like to contribute more but, at the same time, we feel this is a very heavy burden on the ratepayers. Perhaps some day we shall get around to changing the whole financing of education and make it a common charge.
Whether they come from outside the city or outside the country, we turn away nobody from the schools. They are very welcome to come to study in our schools but unfortunately we cannot extend it to boys and girls where we have not the space. Take, for example, Ballyfermot, which is a growing suburb. Only a few months ago, we opened a new boys' school there. In the course of the next year or so, there will be a grave problem in that area of how to accommodate the young students who wish to be educated there. I am quite confident that, with his dynamic drive to improve matters, the Minister will wipe out that deficit of 300 places for pupils in the boys' school.
We are doing what we can for education, with the help of the Minister. In one area, we are using a primary school as a vocational school, not that the general population has fallen but because more children are seeking secondary education or vocational education.
There is one last point which I should like to touch upon. Nearing completion in the city at the moment is a new college of technology where men and women will be trained to the very highest degree in various aspects of technology. I am wondering if, in the city or the country, we could not have a tie-up between the universities and the college of technology. This new college, I would say, will be far better equipped as regards technology than some of our universities. I think we could effect some economies by bringing the university people and the vocational education authority together and working out a scheme whereby men and women who qualify at the college of technology could qualify for a degree in the university with some further examination.
On the subject of university education, I would ask the Minister to consider the fact that, last year, many students in this city were unable to get admission to the medical school of University College Dublin although they had done a "pre-Med." course before that. There was just no room for them. I know of one family where the mother and father made great sacrifices to educate their child there but she was turned down this year because they could not admit her. That is happening at a time when we talk about sending our graduates to under-developed countries—and I am all for that. However, I think we have to examine, at all levels—vocational, secondary and university—the great problem of lack of space for students. I have every confidence that, by this time next year, the Minister will remove many of the grievances I have mentioned.
I simply want to take advantage of the Supplementary Estimate to inquire from the Minister in relation to a number of points dealing with the transport of national school children in any area who attend schools which may be closed. Is there any set of regulations and rules governing this matter that could be supplied to Deputies by the Department of Education? When questions are asked of Deputies, it is very unsatisfactory not to be able to give a definite reply. Such questions were asked of me last week by a deputation in connection with Coolnahorna national school, County Waterford, which, I understand, will be closed next June. I felt I was unable to answer the questions.
I believe that yesterday, in reply to a colleague of mine on these benches —Deputy Mrs. Desmond—the Minister indicated that the cost of transport would not fall on the children concerned but would be a charge—in part, anyhow—on the manager of the school. Unfortunately, in rural areas, anyhow, we find that where managers of schools—even where they get subventions from the State—are charged to supply heating, such as fires, for example, they very often pass on the charge to the pupils. I fear very much that, when it becomes a financial charge on the manager of the school, we may indeed find that whatever portion of the fare will be charged to the school manager, it will be passed on to the pupils' parents and perhaps may excessively be passed on. Unless there is some definite regulation to which we can point, it will be difficult to indicate what amount of expense, if any, the parents will be obliged to meet.
I have already given the Minister particulars of the school in question. I am relying on his good judgment. Having regard to the fact that there is a school-going population of 38 and that the school was built as recently as 20 years ago, it is my personal belief that a small addition would enable it to come into the two-teacher category. The pupils attend from a widely scattered area. I understand that the means of transport contemplated is a minibus. That would mean a saving in the number of trips required to bring the children to school. May I ask if the old school will be the fixed point of departure to the proposed new school in Rathcormac? These are things parents would like to know. Definitely, they would prefer that the school would remain open and be developed into a two-teacher school, but should that be contrary to ministerial policy, I presume I have very little hope of having that policy changed, although I depend on the good sense of the Minister to have the matter considered as favourably as possible.
There is another question I should like to put to the Minister. When pupils leave home and assemble at whatever point or points may be indicated, do they immediately become covered as they would be if they were at school? I understand that once they are in school, they are in the charge of the manager. In whose charge are they during transport from the point of assembly until they reach the school, which, in this case, would be a distance of eight to ten miles in some cases and not less than six miles in many cases.
I should like to point out that the vast majority of pupils who may be transferred are children of rather tender age, from four to seven years. Unless they are accompanied to the assembly point and unless somebody takes charge of them in a minibus, I can visualise overcrowding of the bus with serious danger to life. I would suggest to the Minister that some carrying capacity should be indicated so that young children of tender age will not be put in with more adult children of up to 14 years of age, both boys and girls, who, at that age, are not noted for gentleness or consideration for others. The Minister should give serious consideration to these points. I have asked him privately to do so and I am sure he will.
There are just two other points relating to my constituency on which I should like information from the Minister. One is in regard to the Christian Brothers' secondary schools in Dungarvan. The Christian Brothers are in process of opening a new primary school for which they got a substantial grant, for which they are very grateful. The school will be opened on 9th March and I understand that the Minister has indicated that he will send some of his officials to the opening ceremony. In the case of the secondary school, which was the second Christian Brothers' school to be opened in Ireland and has been in existence for over 100 years, there is serious need of reconstruction. There is a very large school-going population in the neighbourhood. The school caters for children within a radius of 15 miles of Dungarvan. The school is an all-Irish school, all subjects being taught through the medium of Irish. I would ask the Minister favourably to consider the making of a grant towards the reconstruction and if he could see his way to give such a grant quickly, it might be possible to get the contractors who are to finish work on the primary school prior to 9th March to continue and to carry out the reconstruction of the secondary school.
I would also like the Minister to interest himself in the proposed vocational school for Kilmacthomas. This project has been under consideration for eight or nine years. I know a good deal of the fault lies in the fact that there was a change of site and that our architect may not have been as expeditious with plans and specifications as he might have been. I do think that the Minister should intervene and endeavour to have the school provided as soon as possible. It is costing quite an amount of money to parents whose children have to travel 15 or 16 miles and in some cases a good deal more in order to attend school in Dungarvan. The parents pay half the bus fare and the school authorities, comprising the Department and the ratepayers, I expect, pay the other half. It is a considerable hardship on the pupils that they have to wait until approximately 5 p.m. for the bus to take them home. In winter they arrive home in the dark of night. If the school in Kilmacthomas were available, it would serve the entire area around the centre of Waterford. I would ask the Minister to urge on the persons responsible the importance of completing the school.
I should like to avail of this opportunity to voice the feelings of some of my constituents who are deeply concerned about the new proposed policy of the Minister with regard to the closing of one- and two-teacher schools. I am sincere when I tell the Minister that that proposal has caused consternation and indignation in at least two areas with which I am concerned. The persons there have been forced to the conclusion—to which I do not subscribe—that a Dublinman who has been honoured by appointment as Minister for Education has no concern with rural areas. I, knowing the Minister, realise that that is not correct. But, if some of these people to whom I am referring had been here last night listening to Deputy Briscoe, they would have been confirmed in their opinion. Deputy Briscoe is another Dublinman. I do not know whether he was quite sincere or not but he disclosed a terrible lack of knowledge of rural Ireland.
He said that he welcomed the proposed policy of the Minister, that it would confer big benefits on the areas concerned, which, of course, is quite incorrect. He further said, disagreeing with what Deputy Jones said earlier, that, if a pilot area were set up as an experiment, the squeals and screams from those concerned would be loud and long. I can assure Deputy Briscoe —he is not here now—that if he had expressed himself after the same fashion at one of these meetings, the squeals and screams from him would be very loud when the people threatened to lynch him. Without any disrespect to the Deputy concerned, I would say his speech was typical of the kind of speech one would hear from a Dublin jackeen. That is a term related to Old Dublin like "Molly Malone," The Commbe, the "Mountjoy Hotel," etc., etc. There is no disrespect. That would be the reaction of the people to such a speech from Deputy Briscoe.
I wonder will this be used now as an excuse by the Minister and his Department to prolong the delay in carrying out very necessary repairs to a great many schools, schools which have been passed for improvement long since. I had personal experience of dealing with the Minister in connection with one school. It was under consideration for so long that in the last communication I had from the Minister, he said he would consider my suggestion and provide a prefabricated school in the interim period until the new school was built. Such a school was never provided; neither were any steps taken to improve the old school or build the new one. I fear the position is as bad in relation to a great many other schools. They will become very much worse before anything will be done with them. The stock answer will be that, in view of the change in policy, the matter is under consideration.
I have here before me a copy of a memorandum which was sent to the Minister from one area in support of a claim for the retention there of a two-teacher school. It is pointed out in the memorandum that the area concerned is a purely farming area. If the school is closed, that will have a detrimental effect on the economy for the following reasons: as dairy farmers, they have been encouraged to produce more; they are endeavouring to do that in the face of great difficulties; doing away with the school in the area will naturally interfere with labour. The labour problem is bad enough in that area. I will give the Minister the name of the school—it is Curraghs national school, Liscarroll, County Cork. It has been openly stated by some of the labourers that, if the policy proposed is implemented, they will leave the district. That will make the present difficult problem still more acute since it will be impossible to replace labour. They also point out that there is no guarantee that the children dispossessed will go to the proposed central school. They will probably go to school in the nearest town, my home town, of Kanturk. They will immediately become town and city minded and there will be no great likelihood of their returning to the rural areas. Unfortunately too many are becoming town and city minded as it is. This new policy will aggravate that trend.
Again, the problem of transport will arise. The Minister said yesterday there would be free transport. The Minister knows very well that not even free transport will work satisfactorily for very young children. The parents then will be forced to transport their children to the school of their choice morning and evening. I would like to know from the Minister, if a school is closed and the proposed policy is implemented, is it suggested that the children dispossessed must go to the central school? It was stated at a meeting at which I was present by a member of the Government side of the House that the children would not be allowed to go anywhere else. I said I did not believe that and I hope it is not true. It would be very dictatorial to say the least of it. I do not believe the Minister would resort to that extreme.
It was pointed out, too, that the closing of a school in a district would lead to a depreciation in the value of property in that district. I subscribe to that view. I am an auctioneer and, in all advertising, one of the features stressed is convenience to schools; the phrase generally is "conveniently situated to church, school and creamery". These are the important amenities in rural areas.
It is also pointed out that the schoolhouse is the social centre of the parish. It is used for agricultural classes, for meetings of the ICA, and so on and so forth. It is a general meeting point in the district. In this particular school there is a flourishing branch of the county library. That is a tremendous advantage. Because of statements made, the trouble was taken to inquire from secondary teachers as to the standards of the pupils going to them from the smaller schools, especially from the two-teacher schools. They were assured by the headmasters that the pupils compared very favourably and that they were actually better in some instances than the pupils from the town schools. That speaks very highly for the methods adopted and the teaching done in these small schools. There is the personal interest in the pupils. That is lost when the children go into bigger schools. With some pupils the personal touch is very important. The point has also been made by these people that a very small percentage of the teddy boys, the Mods and Rockers, the juvenile delinquents, come from those areas but once they get a taste of the towns and cities, things will change very much. That is a big point in favour of retaining these small schools.
There is also a very big objection in regard to transport. It was suggested at one time that these children were more backward than those who had the benefit of attending bigger schools. If that were so, which is not subscribed to by everybody, it is going to be very much worse now because no parent in the rural areas will put children of tender years on a bus with bigger pupils, let them off for the day and hope they will arrive back safely some time that night in the dark. If parents have to avail of that transport, young children will not start school until two years later than normally, which will be a decided disadvantage to them in after life. Even if it were safe to send these young children to bigger schools, we know that there are some young children who require more care than others in their kinder-garten days. There would be no one at all to look after them and there would be no provision made to give them a hot meal which would be very necessary for them and which could be brought to them if the school were convenient to home.
These points were ably put by these people and I would appeal to the Minister to reconsider this matter on the lines suggested yesterday by Deputy Jones of the Fine Gael Party. It is very wrong to have one policy for the whole country in this connection. There may be a good case in respect of one-teacher schools but I do not think any good case can be made for the closing of two-teacher schools. They are an important social service in the life of the rural areas, and traditionally so. They should be retained in an effort to preserve the rural community who are so important to the social and economic life of our country.
One other point I should like to put to the Minister is in regard to subsidising transport for post-primary education. There are some parents' associations making a very good job of it at the moment, but it is very difficult to provide the necessary finances. I was concerned in one case where we consulted CIE, and their minimum estimate was £70 a week. Through the good offices of some people, we got a private bus owner interested who said that in order to open the service he would be prepared to do it for so much, which I can say was very much less than what CIE required. However, it is very hard to keep up the finances and, in view of the importance of post-primary education, I would ask the Minister to look into this matter.
I was taken to task in the public press by Deputy Meaney who attended one of these meetings at which I was present and who said I did not know what I was talking about.
Can the Deputy deny his Party's policy last July?
I pointed out on that occasion, when discussing the matter after Deputy Meaney had spoken, that these were personal views and not Party policy, and Deputy Meaney knew that. He also stated that Deputies should not make an election platform out of such meetings. I do not think anybody was making election platforms out of such meetings. We were sincerely concerned about the people in question. It might be a lot better for Deputies to tell the people in plain language: "We cannot do anything for you", than to string them along and say: "We will help you to make a good case". I would appeal to the Minister to reconsider the overall policy in regard to the closing of one-teacher and two-teacher schools.
At the outset, I should like to pay a very special tribute to the Minister for the dignified and gentlemanly way he has handled some of the onslaughts on himself. I should imagine the greatest difficulty the Minister faces is putting up with the advice of amateur educationists. Some of those amateur educationists ride their hobbyhorses in public but some of them do not go back to the unsaddling enclosure to get the true result at the weigh-in.
I have been very much concerned and involved in the question of one-teacher and two-teacher schools over the past five months because the first opinions that were voiced came from the parents in Goggins Hill in Ballinhassig which is part of the constituency I represent. I attended a meeting there, together with my fellow Deputies for the area. In my own way I tried to point out the advantages of the central school idea and the parents there seemed to be reasonably receptive to that idea. Eventually the Minister agreed to meet a deputation from this area and he did so. Every one of them was enormously impressed with the sincere approach the Minister had to education and it was agreed at their request that he would erect a prefabricated school at Goggins Hill.
The Minister later communicated with the reverend manager and said he was going to erect this school but then a strike was called by the parents. In my opinion, this was the most irresponsible action I have ever seen parents undertake because the only people to suffer will be the children themselves and, despite what Deputy Burton may think, I pointed out in public to them that it was in their interest, to agree to the central school idea. There were some forces very strongly against it and by a majority decision, it was agreed to hold the strike which I here publicly would like to disagree with completely.
Many on the Fine Gael benches have spoken about what a wonderful thing it would be if we had physical education, civics and nature study in our schools. This is very laudable and everyone would love to see it but how practical is it with a one-teacher school? In my opinion, it is impossible and so, in order to be consistent, you must concede that if you want these subjects taught, you must have more teachers in the schools. Instead of having the whole educational curriculum confined to certain subjects as at present, the expansion and widening of the curriculum is in every pupil's interest.
I was very surprised to hear Deputy Jones, whom I consider to be a very good judge of education and very sincere in his approach to it, not agreeing to this policy because I should have thought that the Deputy, with his knowledge of what is involved in schools from his practical experience, would have been one of the first to endorse the Minister's decision on the central school idea.
That is exactly why— from my experience, I would not.
I should have thought that from the Deputy's experience he would have seen the tremendous benefit to be gained from this type of central school. I know the Deputy does not normally play politics unless forced to do so, and obviously his approach is sincere.
I was very glad to hear that the Department have ceased to recruit unqualified teachers and that we shall now go ahead full steam, utilising only qualified teachers. I represent part of a county, Cork, which has the highest percentage of secondary school pupils in the country in relation to the population at secondary schools and this idea in post-primary education of the comprehensive school will be welcomed by the vast majority. At least that was the impression I got in discussing it with various people connected with education.
If changes are to be brought about in our educational system and in education, it follows that there must be either change or stagnation. There must be some point of initiative. There must be some central administrative authority and in my opinion, the only central point of co-ordinating administrative authority is the Minister for Education and his Department. If you were to build a secondary or vocational school many years ago or even up to the present day, you were assured of its being filled and utilised to its fullest capacity.
Now, in our 900 post-primary schools we have, in the opinion of the Department of Education, enough accommodation for all who want to avail of post-primary education. Obviously, in such circumstances the unco-ordinated building of secondary and vocational schools could go on indefinitely. Equally, obviously neither the secondary nor vocational authorities could be expected to take the initiative in calling a halt to unplanned building. The point has arrived where the only existing central administrative authority is the State and the State must act. The time has come, in other words, where all the post-primary education needs should be planned and budgeted for scientifically, which is the way I view what the present Minister and the Department are endeavouring to do.
The matter of accommodation is only one difficulty that can be reasonably easily surmounted with a certain amount of capital and organisation. A more complex problem is that of providing sufficient trained teachers. Again, this is the ultimate responsibility of the State but I think it is well within the capacity of the State and the Department to deal with this problem. There remains the whole problem of the child itself. If he or she is to be compelled to attend school until the age of 15, the point of principle arises as to which school the child should attend. If there are only secondary schools and if the theory of the private nature of the secondary school were followed to its logical conclusion, there could never be a raising of the school leaving age.
But I know that to deny post-primary education to any Irish child is a crime in the eyes of anybody who takes a responsible view of education. Obviously what the Minister and the Department are trying to bring about is co-operation and collaboration between secondary and vocational schools on this problem. Even then, the problems only begin to emerge when the compulsory school leaving age of 15 is adopted and we compel children to go to school up to that age. We must provide the type of courses that are suitable for him or her. I do not think anyone would consider that either secondary or vocational schools make that type of provision at the moment. The vocational school course is only of two years duration and the secondary school course is generally three years. While the secondary school course is entirely a bookish course, the vocational course is largely practical and there is a wide range available to the child who presents himself for this type of education.
Obviously if this type of child is to be catered for, the secondary and vocational syllabuses will have to be brought into reasonably close conformity with each other. If the vocational school pupils are to have a proper chance, the course will have to be lengthened from two to three years. This is what has been decided upon by the Department and by the Minister and what is about to begin next year. In 1970, we hope to have raised the school leaving age to 15 years and now is the time to plan for that change and not wait until 1970. I do not think in those circumstances, that anyone can accuse the Minister of not planning far enough ahead.
I would like to say a word about the agricultural schools available to us. In the book Investment in Education on page 15, it is stated:
In addition to grammar and vocational post-primary education, there are also some more specialised forms of second level education. The most important of these is agricultural education.
Recently I had the pleasure of attending the opening of an extension to the agricultural college at Darrara. The facilities available there to people who wish to make their living from agriculture are tremendous and I would like to compliment the Minister for Agriculture and the Minister for Education for making this type of education available to the people of Cork city and county who wish to avail of it. In addition, we have the Munster Institute where the training of domestic economy instructresses takes place. The only complaint I received was that we still have not got enough but we are moving in the right direction and are planning to link up our future educational needs with our future manpower needs. We are stimulating vocational courses which are closely linked with our manpower policy.
In conclusion, I wish to thank the Minister for the courtesy he extended to the people from my constituency when they came up here to discuss their problems with him. I would like to say that I am one hundred per cent behind him in what he is trying to achieve for the benefit of Irish education.
I join with Deputy Burton in the statement he has made with regard to the closing of schools. Deputy Burton's point is that there would appear to be some schools in his area under the hammer at the moment as far as closing is concerned and the school he seemed to have in mind is that at Liscarroll. I know this district and I know the hardships the people in it will have to meet in the event of any of the two-teacher schools having to close down. I believe that three or four other districts are in a similar position. The schools in them are probably old and require to be replaced, redecorated or repaired in the near future. The Minister must bear in mind that as far as some of these schools are concerned, it will be a great hardship on both children and parents to provide transport to any central school that might be thought of. These districts are far removed from any centre where alternative education might be available.
Parents will be very reluctant to avail of this transport from the point of view of having their children out from early morning until the late hours of the evening. We have had experience in east Cork and mid-Cork of parent's associations asking public representatives for assistance to keep the existing two-teacher schools in operation. I attended one of those meetings and listened to the points put up by the parents and in particular to the obvious hardships they would have to bear if the schools were closed. I must agree with some of the points put forward by the parents and I do believe that a great deal of hardship will be caused to the schoolgoing children.
Children who up to now had the opportunity of going to school at four or five years of age will probably not be able to go now until they are past six years of age. The younger the child is, the more care and attention it will have to be given when it goes to school, so I would ask the Minister to examine the position of the two-teacher schools before he makes a decision to close them.
There is one particular matter with which the Minister should concern himself. Up and down the country we have a number of old schools in a poor state of repair and, in addition, with no sanitary services. These may even be four or five-teacher schools. They may have been built many years ago and whoever is responsible for them, the manager or the Department, an immediate effort should be made to put them into a proper sanitary condition. There was a school built in my area in 1934 and it was only last year that the necessary sanitary services were laid on, after years of agitation by the parents and people of the district. We have many more schools of that type and the Department of Education, in conjunction with the Department of Finance and the school managers, should ensure that the necessary sanitary facilities are laid on as quickly as possible.
As far as school transport is concerned, we have in County Cork the great desire of the parents to have post-primary education provided for their children and to have transport to the centres where this is available provided as quickly as possible. I am wholeheartedly in agreement with the provision of transport but there are many parents who find it extremely difficult even to attempt to finance the transport and as a result they are probably imposing hardship on themselves and on their children. We have people travelling long distances to secondary schools in Newmarket and Kanturk, and, as Deputy Burton pointed out, as a result of the efforts of the parents, they have succeeded in providing transport through their voluntary contributions. To my mind, that imposes a hardship on them, and particularly on the poorer sections of the community.
In my constituency of North-East Cork, there is a school about which I should like the Department to make up their minds in the near future. In the parish of Castlemagner, a dispute has been going on for a long period between the parents and the school manager as to where the new school should be located. The present school is at Ballyhass and there is a difference of opinion in regard to the new school. One thing that must be said about the engineers attached to the old British Government was that they located schools convenient to the people. The dispute about this school has been going on for two years and while I am not suggesting where the school should be located, I do suggest, for the benefit of the children in that parish, that they should get consideration and that that consideration should be given as speedily as possible. I shall conclude by asking the Minister that, if possible, he should consider the question of subsidising transport in remote localities. This is important as far as post-primary education is concerned. I should also like him to consider the provision of sanitary services within the schools, which is very necessary at present.
It is not to attack the Minister or to make a Party issue of this that I rise to speak in this debate. I am here to express the views of the people of Sligo-Leitrim. In that constituency the majority of the schools are one- or two-teacher schools except in a few towns, and particularly in a large centre like Sligo. We Deputies for the constituency have been approached about the proposed closing of a few schools in the area and of course there will be many more before long earmarked for closure if this trend continues. We were approached about two schools in particular, Carrickgeengear, Manorhamilton, in Leitrim and Glenkilamy in Sligo. Notification has been given that the Minister intends to close these schools. I will not say anything about them because we have questions down for tomorrow and we expect that the Minister will be giving us an answer about them.
The national school in a rural area has always been a social centre and very often people looked to the teacher for advice. They had discussions with the teacher about how their children were progressing. The number of pupils is limited in them and it is easy for the teacher to concentrate on the children who number about 30 or 40, while some 12 or 14 years ago they numbered 50 or 60. If this change which the Minister has in view takes place, little toddlers of four years of age will be going by bus for a distance of perhaps eight miles to a town. This will create great hardship for them. This type of child is going to school today but if he has to go two miles to the crossroads and then take a bus to the school, he will be leaving the house, in the months from October to April, in the dark and will be returning home in the dark. I do not think that this will appeal to the people who have always sent their children to the local school. We should not forget that those schools, even in the remote areas, have produced the best of scholars who have given a good account of themselves in Church and State. What has happened in the past could happen again. In know of rural schools, some of them in very backward areas, and if I were to mention the names of some of the scholars who came from those schools, the House would indeed be surprised. We should not find fault with these schools for they played a big part in the life of the community.
If this proposal is proceeded with, there will be a greater inclination on the part of the youth, when they have finished their schooling, to move from the rural areas. I have no hesitation in saying that as a Deputy it will be my duty to stand behind those people who have made representations to me to speak against the closing of those schools. Anywhere I think a school should be closed, if it has a very small number of children attending, I will advise the parents to give way, but where there is a reasonable number of children going to the school and where the prospects for even a further ten, 12 or 14 children going to that school next year are good, I will be in favour of keeping that school open. In my area we have children, after reaching the age of 14 years, going to the local town to obtain their vocational education or secondary education and the people are satisfied with that position. A few years makes all the difference for these children and of course they can pursue their studies further if they wish to.
The question of cost should not enter very much into this matter because where a teacher is giving good service in a school, we should not count the cost of his salary or anything else. If we relate the cost of transport for a year to the cost of his salary, and so on, the difference would not be great. It would be much cheaper to have the teacher than to have one or two minibuses and their drivers, even if the teacher were only in a one-room school. It would be better to have that than to have these minibuses travelling around the country, with the children having to leave their houses at an early hour. As I say, cost should not come into this.
In my constituency there is a holdup in the carrying out of extensions to a few vocational schools. I would ask the Minister to try to get that work going as soon as possible. The children have little space and nothing can be done until these extensions are carried out.
For the past few years there has been a demand for a school of technology in Sligo. The people are most anxious that the Minister will sanction such a proposal and have asked me to have it speeded up.
I should like to refer to the sanitary conditions in some schools in my constituency. No matter what happens, we still have such schools with us. The conditions in them are dangerous both for the children and the teachers. I directed the Minister's attention to a school in the village of Ballintogher and there is another serious case in the Rantogue area of County Leitrim. I shall give the Minister particulars and ask him to check on them. It is too bad when we are spending such huge sums at present that the provision for repairs and facilities for small schools such as these is being neglected.
We are not going to say that we do not approve of the closing of some of the small schools. Where the number of pupils attending is very small, we must be reasonable. But if there is any hope at all of the averages being kept up, I would appeal to the Minister not to close those schools.
I had no intention of speaking because we will have an opportunity of dealing with education on a broader field when the Estimate comes before us. I think all Deputies will admit that the Minister is reaching out for perfection in the field of education. Much progress has already been made. We know there are many defects in the present system and it is the Minister's responsibility to try to remedy them. Never before in our history has the demand for education been greater than at present. Therefore, the Department of Education must review the whole system and provide something to meet not alone the wishes of Deputies but of local authorities as well.
To achieve anything worthwhile in education requires the co-operation of all Deputies, members of local authorities, religious communities and, above all, of parents. We all have our responsibilities. Political affiliations must be set aside where education is concerned. The child must be our first consideration. I have sympathy with rural Deputies. Nevertheless, Deputies are obliged to bring certain facts before the deputations of parents referred to here. It is easy for parents to be misled with regard to two-teacher schools. I wonder how many of us have explained to parents that certain changes must now be made in the interests of education and in the interests of their families? I have heard it said from the opposite side that Deputies say one thing to parents and another thing here. I do not approve of that. Unpopular steps have to be taken and we must be honest in this matter. We must start by educating the parents themselves and conveying to them the importance of education at present.
We shall have an opportunity of discussing comprehensive schools at a later date. In all this talk about upset and inconvenience, we forget the most significant point, that is: what system is the best to adopt? It is natural that we should encounter opposition in these matters but we must be prepared to stand up here and say: "I believe that this is the best system for the education of our children." I heard a very enlightening speech yesterday by Deputy Jones. I am fully aware of his experience in this field. Nevertheless, I am convinced in regard to what the Minister is doing.
We have many problems in Cork city. We have over-crowding and, what is worse, a long waiting list. I visited a school last week and saw two classes in session in the one room. I must ask myself if the time has come to review this whole matter of education. At present many schools are making arrangements for extensions and trying to provide the comprehensive system in their own schools. Everybody is trying to improve education. We should co-operate as far as possible with the Department in providing the best possible system, a system worthy of this country.
Deputy Wyse was sincere in asking for co-operation in this matter. Before one can fully co-operate, there must be leadership. I listened very attentively to my colleague from Dublin city, Deputy Moore, when he saw fit to praise the Minister for what he has done up to the present. I have the greatest regard for the Minister and I am satisfied he would do a better job if he were allowed but I do not think there is anything at all to rejoice about. Quite obviously, what needs to be done is not being done. This perhaps can be attributed to the Government policy of stalling—call it what you like. Instead of continuing to give lip-service to this important matter of education, something positive will have to be done.
It is about time something positive were done about post-primary education training. Deputy Moore made a case which clearly indicates to my mind how the Government, and the Department of Education, in particular, have fallen down on this very important matter. He went on to explain that there are queues for the vocational schools and queues for University College, Dublin. This will continue and there is no use in putting down in any book "This is what we dream of". It is about time we got down to doing something positive about this job.
Far too often—and it still continues —children are left to depend on the parents' pocket for further education. We can all say: "Get together and do something about it". The obvious way in which it can be done is for the Minister for Education to twist the arm of the Minister for Finance and to get him to "cough up" the necessary money for it.
An aspect of this matter which very often intrigues me is the absence of interest in boys and girls coming up to 14 years of age who leave school at 14 years. Through questions in this House, and through inquiries elsewhere, I have tried to ascertain how many boys and girls can be accounted for as coming into employment between the ages of 14 and 16 years. Not even the Taoiseach can give an answer to that question. They are nobody's children. Nobody takes account of this important aspect of the matter. This is a dreadful situation in our country. It is an indictment of any Government that such a situation should be allowed to continue.
When we think in terms of vocational education, there is one main point we must bear in mind, that is, our ability or otherwise to procure a sufficient number of competent teachers. I am a member of the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee and it has been my experience—as, I am sure, it has been the experience of other Deputies who are or who have been members of vocational education committees throughout this Republic —that we cannot get the types of teachers we should like to get because of our inability to pay the salaries such people command. We are not in a position to induce a sufficient number of competent teachers to leave their employment with different firms to take up the job of teaching in the vocational schools. Try as the vocational education committees might to have the situation changed, and let them perfect the case as much as they can to produce evidence to the Department of Education that they have been unable to get a first-class man as a teacher for a particular job, it has not succeeded in getting the Department of Education to change their attitude on this matter. That goes not only for the present Minister but it went for his predecessor in office and for the man in office before him again. It seems that there is a hidden hand in the Department of Education which derives great satisfaction out of stalling things, particularly if it is considered that it is in the interests of "progress".
Mention has been made of the one-and two-teacher schools. I am concerned about the absence of schools in my constituency. I know of young children who have been and still are obliged to walk for miles in the city of Dublin to reach school because the Minister has refused to give them transport. They have to walk miles in the rain and in all sorts of inclement weather and nothing is done about it. We also have a situation where transport is supplied for children from corporation housing schemes to the centre of the city but when they get into the centre of the city, they may have to walk considerable distances to their respective schools because further transport is not laid on for them.
I came across an extraordinary situation quite recently. I had to come to the assistance of one of my constituents who found himself on strike and who, because he could not pay the few shillings per week to send his child to school into the heart of the city, was threatened with prosecution. He could not afford to do so because he was on strike, but nevertheless he was threatened with prosecution. The fact that school accommodation was not available near the child's home was not taken into consideration.
I often wonder whether the point I now intend to raise is really the problem of the Department of Education or the Department of Finance or, in fact, whose baby it is but certainly they have made a nice little football out of it. I refer to the question of who intends to bear the cost of recruiting and educating catering workers for the catering industry.
I do not think it is a matter for the Minister for Education.
I understand that, to a certain extent, it is. Representations have repeatedly been made to the Minister but unfortunately he cannot get his colleague, the Minister for Transport and Power, who can pontificate to trade union workers and tell them how to behave, to make up his mind on matters of this kind. I would ask the Minister for Education to get on proper speaking terms with the Minister for Transport and Power and to try to rectify that situation.
As a rural Deputy who has been asked by certain parents to do so, I should like to speak of the inconvenience and hardships their children are enduring because of the closing of a two-teacher school in my area. The Minister has spoken of transport for children under this scheme but it has not yet been given to the children I speak for.
The closing of the school in question came as a bombshell to the parents, for the simple reason that, two years ago, a site for a new school was selected right on a field adjacent to the existing school. I admit that the attendance at the existing school has gone down very much but nevertheless its closing came as a very serious shock to the parents in the area.
Apart from that case, I stand up to protest on behalf of many parents in the areas of North Clare and the areas of Clare as a whole because whilst this plan might be applicable to the cities and the larger towns it certainly is not by any means applicable to our rural areas, bearing in mind the schools in the remote areas of County Clare and, I daresay, in the counties of the west of the country. It would be interesting to see how the pupils of these schools have turned out in adult life. One would find many ex-pupils of these schools at the head of Government Departments and of big firms in this city and in many places throughout the world. It was in these schools that it is now proposed to close that these people received their early education.
No matter how one may protest or how parents may feel about it, this scheme will be put into operation and I would like to suggest to the Minister that before he moves any further, he should settle the question of transport, which is the vital issue in this matter. I make that suggestion first of all, because of the hardships that will be imposed on young children if it is not settled and secondly, because it will take a long time to settle the question. The question of the conditions of roads in rural areas is involved. There are roads, particularly in remote areas, over which a minibus or car could not travel.
There is another point which must be made for the sake of the children. Under the School Attendance Act, parents must send their children to school and the Act has been very helpful in enforcing school attendance. Under section 4 of that Act, there is a limit of two miles for a child of ten years. Over that distance, if there are not reasonable transport facilities available to a child's home, school attendance cannot be enforced. Therefore, the question of transport should be settled. If it is not, there are many parents who will be very glad to keep their children at home, in the knowledge that they will not be liable to penalty under the School Attendance Act. In such cases we might be doing harm instead of promoting education.
I have been told that this scheme has been initiated for the sake of economy. In my view, the child's interest should take precedence over economy.
Hear, hear.
Who said it was for economy?
I would ask the Minister to bear in mind that the interests of the child must come before economy. It will take years to perfect the new scheme when it is in operation. After a certain number of years it will be very interesting to look back and see where the economy has been. When we are talking about economy, we should ask ourselves who will bear the brunt of the economy. I am sorry to have to say that it is the small farmer who will do so. Time after time we have listened to expressions of sympathy with the small farmer and his children. The alleged economy in this sphere of education will add another burden to those that they already have to bear.
In my view, in schools where there are 25 or 30 pupils, the children get more attention from the teacher than is the case where there are 50 pupils in a class. The Minister knows as well as I do that where there are 50 pupils in a class, they are not all stars. It is only natural that the teacher, for the sake of the school or for the credit which will accrue to him, will push the brilliant child and perhaps in some small way—I do not say altogether— the backward child may be neglected. That does not happen in a school of 25 pupils where the teacher at all times will be able to help the backward as well as the forward pupils.
What about the schools where there are six or seven classes?
There are teachers who have succeeded in such schools. I know what I am talking about when I refer to rural schools. I have seen the pupils they have turned out, who are a credit not only to their own locality but to the country.
I do not think anybody denies that.
Why close them? I am glad the Deputy has interrupted me. Does he think that by closing the schools the Minister will improve the standard of education?
It will improve the standard.
The Deputy may believe that but I do not. I did not stand up to harass the Minister. I know what he is and I know his worth. At the same time, I do not agree with the closing of schools. That does not mean that I want to harass the Minister. I am merely explaining my position. I am definitely against the closing of schools. I know that the Minister's scheme will be put into operation at some time and I would ask him to ensure, before the scheme is operative, that arrangements will be made for reasonable transport facilities for the children. That is all I am asking for. I hope the Minister will accept that suggestion from me and will take my criticism of the scheme he proposes as being not too severe but well merited.
Mr. O'Leary
Our Party's position has been made clear through our spokeswoman, Deputy Mrs. Desmond, on this matter. We are in favour, provided these conditions are met, in this matter of the one- and two-teacher schools, of the provision of transport. We are in favour of the educational system moving towards the provision of comprehensive schools. That has been our policy since its formulation three or four years ago.
The discussion on the Estimate is a discussion on education generally but the present controversy has practically dominated the remarks made in this debate. It is probably a good thing that there is this controversy at this time because it has certainly opened up the whole area of education. One of the most depressing things about any discussion on education up to recent years was the total veil of silence about the facts in Irish education, about the drawbacks in Irish education and about the methods of remedying these drawbacks. We have the report Investment in Education which gives all Deputies ample material to speak with some accuracy on educational problems. The present controversy has at least heightened public interest and we should be grateful for the fact that there is this controversy and that it has concentrated attention on education. Our main case is that we have in Dublin a lack of facilities. In my own constituency, we have Bolton Street, which is the second technological college in the city. It is short of places. It is short of staff because it operates on an insufficient budget. The building facilities are inadequate for the work it has to do. Other Deputies can refer to similar shortages in educational equipment in their constituencies. I hope to speak at greater length on this when the main Estimate is before the House.
I hope that at some stage the Minister will take a look at our industrial and reformatory schools. I am extremely concerned about the lack of inspection either by the Department or any other elected body in regard to what goes on in these schools. I have heard quite alarming reports about children who are undernourished. There is no particular check on either the treatment or the education they receive. I give notice now that I intend to start a campaign in relation to industrial and reformatory schools. I believe these have suffered because of lack of attention in recent years. This is another of the dark places I would hope controversy would open up to the full light of public discussion.
I do not believe that the present Minister, or any of his predecessors, in approaching this problem of improving our educational system was ignorant of, ignored or was contemptuous of the tradition behind the one- and two-teacher schools. I am sure the Minister is just as well aware as any of the rest of us of the contribution these schools have made to the development of the country. But times have changed. Standards have changed. Standards have gone up. We require more in the system today and the fact is one- and two-teacher schools cannot provide the formal education now necessary. We have only to look at the recent report of the technical schools on our emigrants. We are numbered in the coolie class. It is no part of our function, and it is certainly not our aim, to turn out cheap labour for Britain. The chief casualties as a result of the primitive form of education common in the rural areas are the unfortunate people forced to earn a living in Britain.
If transport is provided, we can see no really sustainable objection to larger schools, staffed by a larger number of trained teachers, covering a wider variety of subjects and giving a far better service to the pupils. I do not think anyone could say this is in the nature of an economy drive. I believe it was a hard decision to take, remembering the ties that bind a school to its neighbourhood, but I think it is a decision any responsible Minister would have to take. It is a decision in relation to which our Party solidly support the Minister in his attempt to move in the direction of comprehensive schools in the rural areas, provided conditions with regard to transport and other matters are met.
There is a guarantee because the Minister has said that he is willing to examine every particular case in its local environment to see what should be done. No doctrinaire decision has been taken to abolish a particular system and move into another without inquiring and without taking all the necessary steps. Generally speaking, our Party are against any compartmentalising of Irish education. We want to see each facet connected with the next. We want ability to go all the way to university. We want to see vocational schools improved and made more attractive propositions. We want to see them relieved of the stigma of the poor man's university, something intended for those clever with their hands. We want them to be what they should be, important instruments in our economy for the training of our labour force. We want education to be made as freely available as possible to all sections of our community. I hope to speak at greater length on this aspect, too, when the main Estimate is before the House.
My main reason for speaking to-day is to assure the Minister of our support in his stand. I should like to see—this is something that goes back a number of years; I was going to say when I was a mere trade union official, but there is nothing mere about a trade union official, and the Minister was a mere TD——
There is nothing mere about a TD either.
Mr. O'Leary
I should like to see parents participating more in the education of their children. We say in the Constitution that parents have the responsibility of ensuring that their children have a proper education. I should like to see this become a reality. I should like to see parents taking a more active interest. I should like to see parent-teacher committees and associations. I should like to see parents taking responsibility and not just passing the buck. I hope the Minister will see his way to encouraging all forms of parent interest. I do not believe this will result in what has been alleged in the past: wherever it has been tried, only a few cranks come forward. I believe you will get responsible parents who will be interested in the education of their children.
I hope this controversy with regard to one- and two-teacher schools will not become merely the plaything of Party politics and a breeding of differences where there really are no differences at all. Each case, we have been told, will be examined on its merits. Fine Gael Deputies have referred to grievances. If each case is examined and the comprehensive school system fully explained and matters relating to transport and so on are dealt with, I would hope the controversy would not develop into Party wrangling. There is a valuable principle at stake and all of us should sink Party differences when there is something of benefit for the people. I hope, too, that the Department will not be held up by any vested interest. I hope it will act in the light of all the facts and bring the public with it.
I cannot agree with the last speaker. He appears to have got the central school mixed up with the comprehensive school. His idea of a comprehensive school and mine appear to be at variance. I do not know much about the city of Dublin but I know the country, and especially the West. If the Deputy leaves the West to us, we will handle it. A comprehensive school means to me a school drawing pupils from a ten mile radius and constituted of both secondary, vocational and technical education, where there would be a secondary and vocational or technical training, and that at a certain stage there would be a common Intermediate Certificate, and there would be a branching off there. That is the idea I have anyway.
This entire matter of education requires very careful consideration and I am satisfied that it is getting careful consideration. There is more in it than just the educational effort. Economic and social problems must come into it, but we must subordinate the economic and social questions to the question of education itself. I am a firm believer in the idea that education is the basic service in any country in the world and that upon it depends the efficiency of all other services. If the basic service of education is faulty, it is reasonable to assume that all the other services will fall down. Consequently, very serious consideration must be given to the lines of advance in education. All countries in Europe realise the importance of advanced education, and if we are thinking of entering into the EEC, we must regularise our educational system and keep up with the standards of education in Europe.
I was recently down in the Industrial Estate at Shannon Airport. I went into one of the biggest companies operating there and asked the engineer who showed me around how our labour standards compared with those in other parts of the world. The answer was very clear. He said: "Technically, hopeless," but for adaptability and willingness and quickness to learn, there was nothing in the world to beat us. We are technically behind other countries. The one person who can bring us up to world standards is the Minister for Education, and I am wholly with him in any efforts he makes along those lines. If we want a dynamic community capable of tackling economic problems, we must have a sound, inspired system of education and I believe that any cutting back of money being spent on education would be a step in the wrong direction.
As the principal of a two-teacher school, I do not wish to get involved very much in this explosive question of the closing of one-teacher and two-teacher schools. There is diversity of opinions on the matter. I hope it will be solved eventually by the pressure of public opinion and I have an idea how that pressure will go. I have been speaking to the Minister on one or two matters and I found him very approachable and understanding. I hope I am right in saying that he seems to be prepared to treat each problem— and I suppose it will be a problem—on its own merits, that it will not be a matter of a blanket closing of one-teacher and two-teacher schools. In respect of one-teacher schools, there must be exceptions. One of the exceptions in my constituency would be non-Catholic schools which, I think, are all one-teacher schools and which are also providing transport within a radius of about six miles.
They are, or the State is?
Both—it is a subsidised scheme.
That is a problem for the Minister. There are also individual schools for instance, as I explained to the Minister last week, a school in a glen in my constituency. There is no proper road out of the glen. When I have gone there, I have had to stop my car, put on a pair of wellington boots and tramp down into it. They are all coal miners there and if the Minister decided to close that one-teacher school, which is a school built only about 12 years ago and which has modern facilities, including electric light, the children would have to walk further to meet the bus than they now walk to the school. They would have to travel along a narrow, unprotected road over a mountainside, a tarred road now, meeting coal lorries in the vicinity of the coal mines. For about six to eight weeks of the year, that road would be closed due to snow and frost. The name of that place is Glenkillamay, the last outpost of my constituency.
I mention it because that is one of the places of which the Minister would possibly have to make an exception. There is a teacher who lives beside the place and there is no difficulty about a change of teachers. In this entire matter there should be a restrained attitude, and I am quite satisfied the Minister will consider each case on its own merits. I should like to go on record as saying that all credit is due to teachers in one-teacher schools who have taught up to sixth or seventh standard and who have produced some very fine pupils. I know of one family that came out of a one-teacher school and they are semi-millionaires, if not millionaires, in the sporting line in America. Generally, I do not see much hope for the one-teacher school. I think the Minister is correct, but he should deal with each on its merits.
The two-teacher schools are a different problem. It depends whether the school concerned is an old school or a new one. If it is an old school, as I know some of them, perhaps 80, 90 or 100 years old and there is a teacher retiring, in my opinion, the Minister's attitude would be right, but where you have a comparatively new school with a teacher who has some years to go, I think the Minister will see the reasonableness of not making a blanket closing; he will wait until something happens. You cannot close down new schools overnight with two teachers in them. This is a general policy which I think will be staggered over years.
The question of social needs and so on has been raised and there will be difficulty there. The local school has been the centre of social activities in the parish unit. At least in the west of Ireland, NFA meetings and meetings of that kind are held in the schools and generally the parish priests and curates and teachers are people about whom the whole parish appears to function. A small point in that connection is that the local school convenient to a church supplies the choir and altar boys. That has been mentioned to me by my manager. What would happen there? Where would he get his choir and altar boys for High Masses on school days? That may not have been considered worth thinking about.
Finally, I wish to mention the raising of the pupil-teacher ratio. If the two-teacher schools are closed on a widespread basis, the pupil-teacher ratio in which would be about 20 to 25 at a rough guess—and according to Investment in Education, that is about the present figure—what would happen? I know that in some two-teacher schools the ratio is up to 35 or 40. What will happen with the closing of those schools? Will the ratio go down or up? That depends on the availability of teachers. Some teachers would be released through the closing down of schools but a question arises in regard to remote areas where you have perhaps a married teacher living near the school who probably will not travel. The modern tendency, in the West at any rate, is that the young teacher wants to get away and will not stay. They want to get to Dublin, Cork or Galway to go to the university and get degrees such as H. Dip in Ed. Then they are qualified for secondary or vocational teaching as well as national teaching. That has been my experience and I can foresee great difficulty in getting national teachers to stay out in the country.
I have a completely open mind on this matter and I should like to make a suggestion. Where there is a proposal to close a one- or two-teacher school, I think there should be consultation between the manager, an inspector of the Department and the parents. I believe this would avert a lot of trouble because in the long run the parents are the people most interested and they will have a say in this. I should like to put this on record, since the efficiency of the one- and two-teacher schools has been mentioned. I looked back over the records in Sligo County Council for ten years and the two-teacher schools compared more than favourably with bigger schools in the award of county council scholarships.
I have listened very carefully to the debate in the past two hours and the feeling I got from the speeches on the other side was that the Minister was going to close down all schools in rural Ireland overnight. Everybody knows that is not so. We must all realise that the matter of money comes into everything, and while the Minister is trying to improve education facilities in rural Ireland and in the cities and towns, it seems right that in each parish of reasonable population, instead of having three schools, it should have one comprehensive school in the centre at which a child could continue his secondary or vocational education, if he so desired. Does anybody see anything wrong with trying to bring secondary and vocational education to thousands of children in rural Ireland who have never had an opportunity of getting such education?
I cannot speak too highly of our national teachers. They have done wonderful work. They are dedicated people but what the Minister is trying to do is to bring secondary and vocational education to children who never had a chance of getting it hitherto. If that is a sin, the Minister is guilty of a grievous sin. We are living in a democracy and I would die to defend the right of any man to express his opinion but we should be wise and practical about what the Minister, supported by the Dáil, proposes to do. I pin my faith on one thing, that is, that if the Minister succeeds in achieving what he has set out to achieve, posterity will bless him. At the moment many a child has no opportunity but to go to a national school and then go to work as a labourer in some other country, unless he can acquire education at night.
In north County Dublin, the children have to travel miles to get a secondary education. They come from Garristown to Dublin, a distance of 18 miles, and they go from Garristown to Drogheda. They go from Donabate to Skerries and from there into Dublin. That would not be necessary if we had a comprehensive school at Swords where a child could continue on from primary to secondary or vocational education.
I listened to my friends of the Opposition today and I say seriously to them that they should try to help the Minister in this scheme. No teacher is going to lose his job and the case of every school will be considered on its merits. The last speaker made a case for some of the islands and said that it would not be possible to take away some of the one-teacher schools from them. I pestered the previous Minister to leave a school on an island in Clew Bay. I went there on holidays and found that the local people wished to have the school retained. I came back and saw the then Minister and he agreed to it.
The human approach to these things will have to be considered. If at any time the Minister finds that a particular one-teacher school is essential, a case can be made for that school and for the children of that area. Nobody can deny that it is long overdue that we should be able to bring to our children in rural Ireland the opportunity which their parents did not have of going to a secondary or vocational school. I appeal to the good people of our country to realise that that is the only aim we have set out to achieve. If one were to stand up in any parish in Ireland and ask the people if they would like a comprehensive school in which their children could secure secondary or vocational education, every father and mother in that parish would give the scheme their wholehearted support.
This is a long-term policy, the object of which it will take a long number of years to achieve. I hope the economics of the State will so improve that we will be able to uplift our people all over the country and give them the treasure of a secondary or vocational education within the confines of their own parishes. I am sure that day will come.
Rightly or wrongly, this debate has been channelled into one issue, that is, whether or not the one- and two-teacher schools should be continued or changed, not to comprehensive schools as stated by Deputy Burke, but to a larger type of primary school. In this regard the Labour Party nailed their colours to the mast a few years ago and I hope the booklet issued by the Labour Party at the time was of great assistance to the Minister.
I have not read it.
I hoped the Minister would have appreciated the effort and trouble that went into its preparation. The only thing that really worries me here is the fear that there may be a tendency on the part of the Government—there is nobody in this House of ministerial rank for whom I have more respect than the Minister and I know that if he had his way, he would do the things we ask him to do—to use this controversy over the type of primary school to be built as an excuse for not doing anything now about the number of scandalously bad schools we have.
I know the Minister would like to see our schools improved immediately but it would be unfair if we expected him to be able to do that. We know that we cannot have these schools repaired or replaced overnight. We must wait until the money for that work is available. We appreciate that, but over the past few months I have heard frequent references to the fact that a new school was to be erected in some particular area, that the old school was in very bad condition, that the site of the new school had been marked and purchased and that then the Department said they were sorry but there had been a change in policy and that until their minds were finally made up, they cannot proceed with the school. That has caused a lot of uneasiness and a terrific amount of disappointment, particularly in areas where new schools have been promised. I raised the question of one school with the Minister some months ago and he and I seem to have a different recollection of what was said. However, I am prepared to accept what the Minister said as I cannot find the volume in which it was reported.
I could not find it, either.
All I know is that this did happen and my research will have to go a little deeper. When I find it, I hope the Minister will agree when he sees it that a definite promise was made to have a school erected in this area. I do not want to elaborate on this or other problems of primary education of which we are conscious until after Private Members' Time.
Progress reported; Committee to sit again.