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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 16 Mar 1966

Vol. 221 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Resolution No. 12: General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.
—(Minister for Finance.)

I was dealing with the position regarding what I would call old men of the sea who are on the backs of our community at the present time. One of them is CIE. We had the example of what happened when a processing firm sent out invitations for tenders for the removal of agricultural produce to the factory. CIE tendered; another party tendered 15 per cent lower than the CIE tender; and a third party was able to tender ten per cent under that again. I would point out that the members of that third party that tendered are knocking out a fairly good livelihood for themselves. They are supporting their families in comfort and paying good wages. Nevertheless, they can tender 25 per cent under CIE.

Lest that might be taken as an isolated instance of what is happening, I have a letter from Messrs. Thomp-sons of Carlow, which I have had reason to mention here previously, in connection with the erection of a shed in Mallow. In the course of that letter, they mention that they use a large quantity annually of steel which comes from Haulbowline but that none of it comes by CIE in consequence of the charges. They say that, by so doing, they save 40 per cent in freight.

That would seem to be a matter for the Estimate rather than for the Budget.

I am asking why our industrial and agricultural community should have this unbearable load on their backs.

Hear, hear.

I say it is time, as far as any transport monopoly in this country is concerned, that were done away with.

That does not arise relevantly on the Budget.

Seeing that we have to find a very large sum of money for CIE in this Budget, I think it is very much to the point.

It is a detail for the Estimate.

All right; we shall have it out in detail later, I hope.

It is a big detail.

Those are matters which are seriously affecting our agricultural community. We cannot afford, on the one hand, to be held on prices and, on the other hand, to have our transport charges increased each year. That is something that is happening and, in my opinion, it has got to end.

I now come to the subject of the Civil Service. We had guarantees here some years ago that there would be a cutting-down on the number of civil servants. I do not know what pattern we started with, but, today, the number of civil servants in this country is a burden which our economy cannot carry and it is just as well to face that fact today as tomorrow. It has now reached the stage where we cannot continue with that pattern.

Hear, hear.

Unfortunately, officials from local authorities are brought to Departments to be trained. Every tuppence-ha'penny local authority today is a replica of the Department. The situation has been created where tuppence-ha'penny is looking down on tuppence. There is the man on a salary scale, as they call it, who is higher than the other fellow, and the more they get the less they do.

Steps should definitely be taken to curb our anxiety to bring foreigners here to do our work. We must stop giving out contracts to foreigners, thus further upsetting our balance of payments. I had occasion to point out here previously that, in one of our State industries alone, Irish Shipping, out of 26 ships in Irish Shipping, only three went to Irish dockyards last year for overhaul and repair.

There is the Ballymun scheme as well.

It is about time that kind of thing stopped. Their money is as good to our dockyard workers as it is in Belfast, Dumbarton or anywhere else. I mentioned the same position a while ago in connection with CIE. I notice that, the other day, the western region sent to England for an adviser, despite the fact that they had Deputy Lindsay there on the spot and Deputy O'Hara.

(Cavan): And Senator Leneghan.

Yet you had to send over to England for an adviser and it is about time that sort of thing were stopped. Deputy Lindsay alluded to motor cars. I did not think anyone was working in Mayo in the way he alluded to but, of course, all of these motor cars are used to bring workers to the grass meal factory at Glenamoy which was closed down by the Opposition but which we opened again.

The Deputy did not buy any bag of it yet.

It is not bad stuff and, after all, considering that the inter-Party Government closed it down and it was reopened again by our people when they came back into Government, I think Deputy O'Hara should be duly thankful.

We will make the Deputy a present of it.

Deputy O'Hara could not make a present of anything. The agricultural community are the principal producers and are anxious to go ahead with production but it is very hard. It is all right to hear lipservice from Deputies here and wails from them in connection with the flight from the land but you cannot have a seven-day week on the land and a five-day week in every other industry in this country. I wonder, had we a five-day week in agriculture, what would be the price of milk or the price of potatoes? I wonder, again, what would be the position in regard to the wheat industry? Mind you, the shortage, or the loss, of employment caused by the reduction in the production of 144,000 tons of beef will mean something to the hauliers and to transport in this country. You cannot kill the goose which lays the golden egg. But there is no talk of giving the pound a week extra to the man whose wage, on costings in this country, is £7 16s a week. Last year when we looked for an increase in the price of sugar to enable those men to get that to which they were entitled, we were refused.

Those are matters which, to my mind, need rectification here and if there is anything loose going around in the line of a pound a week or anything else, it should be given, firstly, to those who have to work a six/and even a seven-day week; for we have not yet invented the six-day or five-day cow.

The Deputy should confine his comments to the Budget. What he is speaking of would be more appropriately raised on the Estimate.

Time enough to speak on those things but what I am dealing with at the moment is the general agricultural position——

Acting Chairman

I beg the Deputy's pardon for a moment. The Deputy is being too detailed on the Budget. His remarks would be more appropriate to the Estimate.

If I wished to give out the kind of tripe to which I have been listening for the past few days, I would be a long time, too, but I have been endeavouring to give the facts in the statement I am making.

If we are to get any balanced economy in this country, first of all, we must have patriotism. We must have that patriotism shown on the top for a start; we must have it shown in the Government-subsidised industries in this country today. You cannot have one State industry selling thousands of pounds abroad and even bringing over British contractors to put up its sheds and machinery and, at the same time, have another State industry laying off men for want of the use of that material. That is what is happening in this country and it is time it stopped. My only regret is that, in the Budget, proper steps were not taken to deal, firstly, with Bingo and, secondly, the sheep-killing dogs. In those two items alone the Minister could find a field in which he would collect some money anyway, and he would also be doing a great service to the community in general.

(Cavan): This Budget is remarkable for a number of things. It is remarkable, first of all, in so far as it has been introduced about two months earlier than any Budget introduced in this country previously. It is only ten months since the Budget of 1965 was introduced. It has been described by the Minister, in introducing it, as really a supplementary Budget and we have been promised—or should I say threatened— with another Budget later this year. It is remarkable, too, in so far as the date for the coming into operation of the paltry social welfare benefits for the destitute is concerned. These have been put back later in the year than any such benefits were ever delayed before: they do not come into operation until the 1st November. Whereas the Budget is introduced two months earlier, these miserable, insulting benefits for the destitute are delayed, put back from August to November.

The debate on the Budget is remarkable, too. It is remarkable in the quantity and, particularly, the quality of the support for it from the Government side of the House. The number of Government speakers have been very few. We have just had Deputy Corry, and we had Deputy Burke and Deputy Moore. I think Fianna Fáil Deputies find it impossible to speak in favour of this Budget, but yet, when the bells ring for a division, they will come in here and vote for it. Deputy Corry put a number of pertinent questions to the Minister for Finance and to the Minister for Transport and Power. I doubt whether he will get answers to those questions in this House. Perhaps, if he keeps in touch with the Irish Times, he might find Deputy MacEntee giving him the replies there.

In so far as the Minister has sought to justify this Budget and in so far as the members of his Party support him, it would appear they would like to create the impression that this is a courageous Budget and that the Minister who introduced it deserves credit for taking measures necessary to correct the economy or to clear up a mess. As I said here this morning, in a friendly interruption of Deputy Burke, I do not know any man in this country who has a better right to clear up the mess, which is admittedly there, than the Minister for Finance of the Fianna Fáil Government, because they were the Government who deliberately, and for reasons which I will come to afterwards, created the mess. Undoubtedly there is a mess; undoubtedly the economy has gone completely out of gear. We are told from the opposite side of the House that wages have raced far ahead of production, that we are importing more than we are exporting, that the balance of payments increased last year to £44 million from £31 million in the previous year, and that we are very fortunate indeed that the gap has not widened to £50 million. The figure of £44 million is an estimate. We have ceased both individually and nationally to be creditworthy.

Hear, hear.

(Cavan): The private sector no longer finds it possible to get credit from the joint stock banks. The country as a nation is not acceptable as creditworthy on the international money market. This litany which I have recited is the tale of woe which was told to us from the far side of the House, and is the reason for the introduction of this Budget. Well may Deputy Moore say that there is a wave of pessimism. Again, those are not my words; they are the words of a Fianna Fáil Deputy. Therefore I say that if that is the position—and it would appear to be the position—no one has a better right to tackle it than the Fianna Fáil Government and the Fianna Fáil Minister for Finance.

This Government have been in office continuously since 1957. I accept as a fact that we had a financial crisis in 1956, but that crisis was brought about by factors over which the then Government had no control. It was brought about by the Korean War, the Suez crisis, and a glut of cattle from the Argentine on the British market. The Government of the day took drastic measures at the end of 1956 to tackle that situation and to correct the then state of the economy. The Fianna Fáil Party exploited it to the full in this House and in every county council chamber in the country.

We hear now about a responsible Opposition, but we know the sort of Opposition we had then. They obstructed all along the line and they put the Party all the way before the country. As a result, they came into power in 1957. Fianna Fáil came into power then on the basis that what happened in 1956, as a result of the factors to which I have referred, could never happen under a Fianna Fáil Government, and that they would see that it did not happen in the future. They assured us that they would see to it that a financial situation could never develop again which would give trouble to the country and to the economy. One would think that a Government coming into power on that note would keep a close eye on the economy, and a close eye on the financial position; yet we have now this tale of woe of an adverse balance of payments, that we are importing more than we are exporting, that our credit has gone wrong, that we are producing too little and spending too much. That is the tale of woe which this Government who came into power in 1957 have presented to us today.

That situation did not develop overnight and it did not develop in a year. The Fianna Fáil Government have been in office since 1957 and during that time they had at their disposal the best brains in the Civil Service to advise them, and they had all the statistics and information available to the Civil Service at their disposal. Not alone did this situation which the Minister for Finance tells us he is trying to cure not happen overnight, but it did not happen accidentally. I say it was brought about by Government action. It was brought about by a reckless and dishonest approach by the Government for selfish and dishonest political motives.

Let us go briefly through the years during which this Government have been in office. In 1962, they told the people that the economy was buoyant, that the national cake had grown to enormous proportions, and that everyone in the country was entitled to a fair share of the cake. They put a Bill through this House increasing the salaries of individuals by as much as £600 a year. They justified that on the basis that the economy was such that they were entitled to do that, and that it would be unfair to this well paid section of the community to deprive them of their share of the national cake.

They introduced the status increases in 1962. We finished up here before Christmas of 1962 with the Taoiseach telling us that the economy was never better. Immediately after Christmas he introduced the White Paper Closing the Gap which would suggest that despite all the buoyancy we heard about in 1962, things were not so good. That White Paper was introduced, inviting the ordinary people to tighten their belts after the status increases of 1962. That was at the beginning of 1963, and in the 1963 Budget, the turnover tax was introduced for the first time. This Party and the Labour Party warned the Government that the effect of the turnover tax would be to increase the cost of living enormously, and at the same time involve wage increase demands to enable wages to catch up with prices, while prices were outstripping wages. The then Minister for Finance sitting over there I think on the day the turnover tax was introduced made little of what the implications of the turnover tax were because on the day the Budget was introduced he was told so by Deputy Dillon and other members from this side of the House but he displayed a total ignorance of the implications of the turnover tax and what the results of it would be. He assured us that it would not increase the cost of living. That is on the record of this House.

We know since that it has increased the cost of living enormously. We know how little thought was given to the turnover tax introduced in 1963 when we hear the Minister for Finance, in this Budget, say that one of the alternatives open to him to raise revenue was the turnover tax. He said he could not touch it, having considered it, because of the effect it would have on the cost of living and on wages et cetera. That is what we told the former Minister for Finance in 1963 when he introduced the turnover tax. He told us then we were talking rubbish. He said it would in some way be absorbed in prices and by some magic or other would not project itself into an increase in the cost of the necessaries of life.

All we ever said about the turnover tax is correct and it has proved to be correct, not by what we say now, but by the fact that the Minister for Finance and the Government are terrified of this tax. They are terrified to touch it. It was a tax they introduced to do away with all other taxation, a ready system of taxation which could be adjusted, as required, and which would replace the old, hardy annuals of beer, petrol, tobacco and income tax. Now they have it and it has done the damage. They are afraid to touch it.

Later in 1963 the Government were defeated in a by-election in an important constituency in this city. They were beaten hands down. Their policy was rejected and they were threatened or challenged to contest a by-election in Cork city at the end of that year. They refused, in this House, to meet that challenge. They invoked a Parliamentary procedure never before heard of in refusing to agree to the Writ being moved for the Cork by-election by the majority in the House. With the assistance of some Deputies no longer in the House they delayed the Cork by-election until the following year when the Kildare by-election came about by the lamented death in the meantime of the late Deputy William Norton.

It was then the Fianna Fáil Party became politically dishonest, let discretion go to the winds and really decided to have a go. They could not afford to have industrial unrest in this country coinciding with a by-election in the city of Cork and in the comparatively industrialised constituency of Kildare. Negotiations were going on for a wage adjustment, necessitated to a large extent by the imposition of the turnover tax. The Taoiseach, I believe not entirely on his own, acceded to the advice of some of the bright young things in his Party, and decided that the people must be kept happy for the time being, at any rate, irrespective of the consequences.

The by-election could not be lost. The attitude was: damn the consequences. We will cross those bridges when we come to them. When the Taoiseach believed that a six per cent or a seven per cent increase in salaries and wages would have been adequate at that time, in order to buy the votes of the people of Cork and the people of Kildare, he gave the green light for a 12 per cent increase in wages and salaries all round, with only the one thought and the one consideration in mind—the winning of the by-elections in Cork and Kildare.

They won the by-elections and they damned the consequences. They said they would cross those bridges when they came to them. They have arrived at the bridges now and they are taking credit and trying to get across them. I wonder what those bright young gentlemen—they are a little older now and are certainly not regarded as so bright—have to say to the Taoiseach or what the Taoiseach has to say to them about the advice they gave him in 1964 and about their approach to the position then. They won the by-elections of 1964 and they bluffed and gambled on through 1964 and into 1965.

Between the beginning of 1964 and the spring of 1965 there was no complaint about the economy. There was no warning about the financial position although I charged the Government that they had in their possession at that time warnings from responsible heads of the Civil Service in this country. They must have had them. They have the best brains available to them in the Civil Service. It is the duty of the Civil Service to keep an eye on those things and to advise the Government of the day if things develop. I am sure they did that. We never heard a word, as I say, that anything was going wrong. We had a by-election in Cork again at the beginning of 1965 and the Government then availed of the opportunity provided by the result of that by-election, which did not materially or numerically alter their strength in this House, to have a general election.

They decided to do that because they knew the state of the economy, because they knew of the financial situation. They knew that if they did not hold a general election then and were compelled to hold by-elections later that year, they would be walloped out of office. The Taoiseach and his bright boys gambled on the general election of April, 1965, with a two-headed halfpenny: if they won the general election of 1965 well and good, they could hold on and bluff in the hope something would turn up and if they lost the general election they would hand over the mess they had created to the incoming Government, sit back and laugh. That was the attitude with which they faced the general election of 1965. They could not lose.

Let us look at the Budget. It proposes to impose approximately £12 million additional taxation. If that taxation or any appreciable part of it were being imposed to encourage production, to improve our competitiveness in the export market or to set up better conditions in which we could enter the Common Market, or if this £12 million or any worthwhile part of it were provided to improve social welfare standards, then the people might grin and bear it and say : "It is hard to have to pay additional taxation but when it is for worthwhile purposes we are prepared to do it." This taxation is not being raised for any of those purposes. It is to pay for the bungling, for the dishonest practices of the Government during the last few years in trying to hold on to office. In this Budget I cannot see any incentives to increase production. The Budget, in fact, will have the opposite effect. I see nothing in the Budget to provide improvement in the health services though it is admitted that the health services are the worst in Western Europe. There is nothing in this Budget to improve our educational facilities though the Government Party have been campaigning on the need for better education facilities.

There is £5 million more.

(Cavan): The Deputy will have an opportunity of speaking later and I shall be delighted to hear of any improvements we had in this respect. I ask the Deputy what will be done in the next 12 months to improve the rate of scholarships or the method of providing more extensive post-primary facilities. My recollection is that no less a person than the Taoiseach said not so long ago that any worthwhile improvements in education or health were being shelved and I challenge Deputy Lemass to say differently.

There is more money than ever before for all of these purposes and the Deputy is opposing the tax for it.

(Cavan): That is an old story when the value of money is going down steadily, when there is need for more money to buy the same goods or services or less. Let us be honest about this. That is the type of dishonest nonsense we have been hearing from the other side of the House for years. There is nothing in this Budget for social welfare classesThere is 5/- a week for the destitute but if a man has a room in his son's house or in somebody else's house he gets nothing. I challenge Deputy Noel Lemass to tell us where is the money to provide additional and improved health services, additional and improved educational facilities, improved services for social welfare classes. This Budget will do none of these things.

On the other hand, it increases the cost of living while reducing the value of wages. The taxes on petrol, on cars, on beer and on cigarettes cannot be described any more as luxury taxes. People who are in what is described as the middle income group drive cars to their work and are entitled to do so. On top of the 25 per cent increase on the road tax, they will now pay 4d. a gallon extra for their petrol. They will pay increased prices for their pints and their cigarettes and they will pay more under PAYE in income tax. The day has gone when only the wealthy classes paid income tax. The road worker who is not married is now liable to have income tax extracted from him.

All those taxes will bring about an increase in the cost of living and industrial strife and unrest will follow from that. It is here at the moment. People are going on strike by the thousands and I say the Government are responsible for that because they brought about a state of affairs in which the £ no longer means anything, in which it will not buy anything. Yet they say to the people of the country that they must tighten their belts and not ask for increased wages.

This Budget will kill our export trade. If that happens is the adverse balance of trade and payments not likely to become much worse?

I think this Budget will damage our tourist trade. We are not blessed with very attractive weather and can give no guarantee about weather from one year to another, nor can we give any worthwhile forecast of the weather. But the things that appealed to tourists here were cheaper petrol, motoring, cigarettes and drink. The gap is rapidly being closed by this Budget. We are pricing ourselves out of the tourist business which is regarded as one of our best money-earners.

I spoke about the cost of living going up as a result of the Budget and about industrial strikes and unrest following it, and I should like to say a word about price control. Some months ago the Government announced—I think in order to placate the workers—that they were introducing a system of price control. That was as bit of windowdressing; I do not think the Government have done anything about price control. We had proof of that in the past few days when a firm of brewers announced that they are financially fit to absorb the 2d a pint on beer and do not intend passing it on to the consumer. Does that not mean that this brewery was earning too much profit over the past year? Does it not mean that if Watneys are able to absorb the 2d a pint and still have a profit, they must have been charging too much to the consumer in the past and that there was no control over or investigation of their activities?

The people as a whole accept that the petrol companies here enjoy far too high profits. They vie with each other to see which of them can spend the most money on advertising and getting tied sites and control of petrol stations. Two of these companies, since the Budget, have been able to reduce the price of their petrol by, I think, 1½ per gallon. Does that not mean that they have been enjoying excessive profits and that the Government have done nothing about it? They made some sort of feeble effort to check on the price of drink. I do not know if there was a direct investigation; I do not know how it ended or whether the price of drink was reduced.

We have been challenged from time to time by the Government side to say what we object to in the Budget. I object to the state of affairs brought about by the Government which makes these proposals necessary. Apart from that, if the country is in the state in which the Minister for Finance tells us it is and there is nothing for the farmers or the social welfare classes, nothing for education or health, then we have lost our sense of direction and our priorities are all wrong. We behave in some ways as if we were a mighty empire with unlimited resources and great responsibility for the rest of the world. If our position is as bad as we are told it is, we should not be meeting, out of our own resources, the cost of maintaining a military force in Cyprus. We are neither morally nor legally obliged to do so. It is not expected of us. We are a small nation and if we accept what the Minister for Finance says we are in poor circumstances and in such a case we have no obligation to meet the cost of this force in Cyprus.

The Minister for External Affairs, I think, has lost his reason and his sense of responsibility. He is trotting about the globe like a miniature Mr. World. The better-off countries must be laughing at us. I understand we were offered a refund of the cost of this force in Cyprus but we would not take it. In our circumstances our first duty is to our own people at home, to build up our own economy and provide the ordinary, accepted social amenities our people want before we go trotting about the world undertaking responsibilities and obligations far beyond our capacity to bear.

People find it very hard to get money for housing. The Parliamentary Secretary knows how hard it is to get money for simple amenities for people in rural areas in the form of better approached to their homes, better water supplies and drainage facilities. If that is so, and if it looked like that in 1962 and 1963, were we justified in embarking on additional non-productive expenditure on building at Leinster House at a cost of £750,000, spending £750,000 in Cyprus and a similar amount on the Castle Yard? These things are all very well if we can afford them. I am not against better buildings and better accommodation at Leinster House or Dublin Castle, nor am I against providing a peace force in Cyprus, provided we can afford it, or it does not cost us anything, but as the position is what we are on the verge of bankruptcy, our priorities are all wrong. They have gone completely haywire.

I wonder what does the Minister for Finance mean when he tells us that we are to have another Budget in the autumn of this year? He has told us that we may expect another Budget and that we may expect more taxes. He should tell the people now in what circumstances he proposes introducing another Budget. Does he intend to go through the Presidential election on this supplementary Budget? Presumably he does. Does he intend introducing his second Budget before the local elections? He should make these things clear to the House and to the country.

Before the Minister for Finance introduces any more Budgets, before he starts having two Budgets in the same year, he should accept the challenge thrown down to him in the opening stages of this debate and advise the Taoiseach to test the feeling of the people on his record since 1957 and, in particular, on his record in this Budget. He should hold, not alone a Presidential election on 1st June, but a general election also, and see what the result will be. I am satisfied that if he does not agree now to hold a general election with the Presidential election on 1st June, we will have three elections this year instead of two because the people will register their disapproval of Government policy and will reject the present Government on 1st June in such a way that the Taoiseach will have no alternative but to go quickly to the new President and dissolve Parliament.

Deputy Fitzpatrick, in his remarks which included a reference to our overseas contributions, proclaimed that this country was in a state of bankruptcy. Earlier on, he said he admits that there were certain financial difficulties in 1956 for which, of course, the Government of that day had no responsibility but that from what the Fianna Fáil Party had said in the election of 1957 and subsequently, the people would not expect that such a situation could arise again. The point that Deputy Fitzpatrick misses is that the situation of 1956-57 has not come back again.

(Cavan): It is much worse.

The rate of progress this year and the rate of progress anticipated for next year are far greater than ever seen in this country prior to 1956. That is a statistical fact. Just because the Government have been doing better than they had planned and better than they had laid down their expectations were and exceeded these things to a degree that has helped to cause an inflationary tendency, there is no need to say that everything they did was bad. Everything they did was not bad. In fact, the situation is not bad enough to consider running a deficiency Budget. There was speculation in the newspapers and by some outside economists who know it all, that the Minister would probably go for a surplus Budget. You do not do that in a time of severe financial crisis. You do that when your economy is sound and only when your economy is sound, and you do it also to draw into your Exchequer money by taxation instead of by borrowing so that that money for borrowing can be left available for private investors for purposes of further expansion.

There have been letters to the Press and so on as to why we should borrow abroad when loans floated by the ESB can be filled in 15 minutes. It is for the same reason as you balance your Budget in a year of this nature, so that you will not take from the economy money that is required by private industry for investment.

Deputy Fitzpatrick was asking me what has been done to improve health, education and social services. In his Budget statement the Minister points out that one of the problems with which he was confronted was that the expenditure under some of these heads had outrun what he had planned for last year and, rather than pull back on these services, he thought it more desirable to raise the money by way of taxation and, he pointed out, by way of indirect taxation as distinct from turnover tax. Deputy Fitzpatrick says that we are afraid of turnover tax: double the turnover tax and your revenue problem was solved. There is another factor which must be taken into account when considering the form of taxation you will use to maintain services which all Parties agree are essential and which several speakers have said are insufficient. All of Deputy Fitzpatrick's statement was pointing out the insufficiency of the money spent on health, education and social services. In fact, the money to be spent on primary education is up by £1½ million; the money to be spent on secondary education is up by £1,100,000, and on vocational education by £50,000, on Social Welfare by £6½ million and on health nearly £2 million and it is still insufficient. But, you cannot raise a tax to pay for them. We must improve these services and have no money to pay for them. That is the rock Fine Gael perish on and one would imagine that they would have learned by now.

At least, the Labour Party made some effort to show how to go about this problem and suggested that the main source of revenue should be income tax. It is quite true that if we were to increase the rate of income tax to the 8/3d that applies in England, it would more or less balance the Budget. There again, Deputy Corish, on 16th December, 1960—Volume 185, Column 1518 of the Official Report— had this to say:

I am sure the Taoiseach has often thought of the many people who do not pay their income tax, the people from whom no effort is made to get that income tax. The wage and salary earners cannot escape one halfpenny of their income tax now. They cannot fiddle with expenses and various allowances. They have to pay it down to the last halfpenny every week.

This does not sound to me as meaning that Deputy Corish, in 1960, was fond of income tax as a solution. In spite of some independent expressions of opinion by Labour that have been made outside the House and inside the House. I do not think it would be a wise thing to increase income tax further than it has been increased in this Budget, for the same reason as you should not increase the turnover tax.

The case Deputy Corish was making was for an increase in the allowance for dependent relatives.

Yes, but my colleague in Dublin South-West, Deputy O'Connell, wanted a rate of 7/6d. He took the attitude that savings could be made on Government spending for investment and subsidies. He took the attitude that the Government would do much better to look for income tax but he said we should be very careful if they were to invest this money in industrial expansion, careful to the extent that the expansion would be bound to be far less and that you would have a diminishing return. You can be too careful as well as being too excessive. If there is a complaint against the Government it is a simple one, that along with investors and speculators, along with consumers and everybody else, the Government spent too much too fast. This has been a national ailment, in my opinion, for the past year or two. Now the Government say that we must pull back on this. The fiscal and economic policies which the Government are following are in common with those followed by most progressive Governments throughout the world.

These economic thoughts call for a steadily increasing Government spending and they offer the best chance of rapid national expansion. However, a danger goes hand in hand with these policies, that is, the danger of inflation. This danger can be caused by various factors, and restraints must be imposed and must be imposed as gently, as firmly and as steadily as possible, if we are to avoid recession. The cooperation of all sectors is required if this Budget is to work and have the proper effect. President Johnson in the United States is having a very similar problem. He is adopting a policy which one could describe as "wait and see". A criticism of this Government might be that we waited to see a little too long. In fact, the Minister for Finance has made it clear that in his opinion, while these policies are being followed, a year may be too long to have to wait before a review of the nation's situation is carried out and it might be better to come for a little more often, to come twice a year to check the tendencies that become apparent.

This is the criticism of the 12 per cent wage agreement. It is felt that too much was injected into the consumer spending market at the same time and for too long a period. In France now, the employers' and employees' orginisations have agreed to a national increase of three and a half per cent per annum. This is to be a national matter, without discussion, and will be automatically implemented. President Johnson is trying to get a similar agreement in America. In Belgium recently, the Government fell because it decided to impose the necessary taxes for the purpose of removing inflationary pressures. The People's Party in Austria suffered an attack from the Socialists for the same reason.

It is after winning an overall majority for the first time.

That is right, but the Socialists attacked the People's Party because it was imposing taxes. The Government of Portugal—which is rarely criticised; I understand it is a rather dangerous thing to do—is coming under severe criticism in the Press because of its taxing proposals. The signs are apparent in the British economy where wages went up nine per cent last year and prices went up five per cent. It could be said of us that we went to the country when it was favourable to us. The same could be said of Prime Minister Wilson. Germany's problem is the same as England's. Wages went up by nine per cent and prices went up by four and a half per cent. India has inflation caused by different factors, caused by a food shortage. Vietnam has it because of the influx of freely spending foreign soldiers. Peru has it also, and Brazil has now got the world's worst inflation problem because last year the cost of living went up by 54 per cent.

Therefore there is nothing very extraordinary about the problems that confront us here today. What may be extraordinary is that national progress is going to be continued and maintained while these problems are being dealt with and while there is a slowing down, the rate of progress will be far in excess of what was thought possible 12 years ago. Certainly it was not thought possible until about 1956 or 1957. The rate of expansion increased by one per cent and at various times various Parties considered one per cent a reasonable rate of expansion for this economy. When I was starting in politics, that was the situation. The cause of these problems is simply that human demands are rising faster than the national economy can afford. Unless the Government, the employers, the workers and farmers' representatives can agree to restraints when they are necessary, then the advancement of the nation in regard to the availability of work, a rising standard of living for all sectors and an improvement in social services will be hampered and delayed. It is a question of getting understanding between these four sections, which I agree is a difficult thing. The recent spending spree after the 12 per cent increase could be likened to a child being let loose in a shop among refrigerators, vacuum cleaners and motor cars in an irresponsible society peopled by ad-men. I do not know who said that but I thought I would mention it.

It could be used as a description of the Government.

There are some matters to which I want to refer and which would be more appropriate on a Vote on Account. However, before we get away from the points raised by Deputy Fitzpatrick and others, I should like to mention that the late Deputy Norton, speaking on the 11th April, 1962, at column 1826, volume 194, No. 11, dealing with a similar problem of how to raise money, said:

some of this will come probably from a purchase tax, as in many European countries.

At that time the Labour Party quite accepted the fact that some form of purchase tax or turnover tax was inevitable in the times to come.

But not on foodstuffs.

Some form of turnover tax. I did not pinpoint him on anything more than that. We have had references today to the unavailability of money for houses and again the short answer is that there is more money available now than ever before.

Nonsense. Where is it?

Look at the Book of Estimates.

The Book means nothing.

Were you listening to the Minister for Local Government today giving facts and figures?

(Interruptions.)

I will give you some more if you will listen.

Dublin Corporation has not got it.

Order. Deputies will get the opportunity to make their speeches.

In 1956, the then Government issued a circular dated June 29th, 1956, headed "The Guarantee Scheme" and it read:

I am directed by the Minister for Local Government to refer to the Department's circular letter, H 10/56 of the 9th June, 1956, and to state that following a decision the following arrangements have been agreed with the principal building societies as the basis of a scheme for guarantees in relation to advances for private houses. The guarantee will operate only in relation to advances for the erection and purchase of new houses for owner occupants.

Subsequent to that, I wrote to every building society in the State and not one would advance money, either on its own behalf or with the so-called Government guarantee. In the present circumstances I did the same thing. I got a completely different type of reply. Deputy Dillon told us the building societies had no money to lend. That is untrue. The Educational Building Society on 1st February, 1966, wrote to me to the effect that 90 per cent of the purchase price will be considered in favour of a suitable applicant, subject to the conditions governing advances. They said:

A loan application will be considered by the Board of Directors within two weeks from the date the application form is submitted to the Society.

"Considered" is the operative word there.

They would not consider them at all in 1956. The Irish Permanent Building Society wrote on 3rd February:

The Society is at present considering loans on new and previously occupied houses and there is normally no delay in the completion of the loan. The decision on an application can be made within approximately ten days and a loan can be completed within a month. The Society's normal advance is 75 per cent of the purchase price but with additional security such as an indemnity bond the Society can grant a loan up to 90 per cent of the purchase price...

The Irish Civil Service (Permanent) Building Society wrote:

In reply to yours of 31st ultimo, I enclose loan prospectus. At present there is a waiting list of approximately two to three months...

That is the least favourable one. The Irish Industrial Benefit Building Society wrote:

In reply to your letter of the 31st January, I confirm that this Society is at present receiving applications for loans for new and previously occupied houses from established members of the Society for the present. This Society has a large number of loans approved, and these loans will be taken up by the borrowers as required on specified dates without any delay in payment.

It goes on to say that the mortgage rate is six per cent. This is a completely different picture from what we had in 1956. There is national progress and additional spending on all the items Deputy Fitzpatrick was worried about. There is money available to the local authorities for housing and from the private building societies. In 1956 the Dublin city manager went down to the Bank of Ireland with a guarantee signed by the then Taoiseach, Deputy Costello, a guarantee which the Bank of Ireland refused to honour, to give the corporation the money they required to meet their normal running expenses. That is on the record.

A matter about which I am concerned and which I referred to on previous occasions is that of medical expenses. Any money people pay to doctors should be deductible for income tax purposes. I say this for several reasons. One of them is that the money you pay to your doctor by way of a fee is in fact taxed twice. The man who earns it is taxed and the doctor who receives it is taxed. There can be an argument about the morality of that. Some people for one reason or another—possibly because they are living a bit beyond their means or right up to their actual means and have not joined the Voluntary Health Insurance Scheme — find themselves faced with heavy expenses for medical purposes. This can run into hundreds of pounds. There is no relief in income tax for these payments.

I think that is wrong. People can be put off from having important operations for themselves or for members of their family, perhaps causing irreparable damage to health, because there is no encouragement and they say they will put up with the pain for a little longer rather than face the bill; but if these charges were deductible, there would be some encouragement to have the medical attention required. As against that, I know the Taoiseach knows, and I am sure the Minister for Finance knows, a certain gentleman who got a very severe illness and spent several years effecting a cure, which, it seems now, is a permanent one, thank God. This man incurred the expense of several thousand pounds which he has been paying in monthly instalments now for about six years. I think this man, who is in the income tax bracket, should be allowed to deduct these expenses. That is a just request. This is probably more proper to the Vote on Account. I raised the matter before and I will do so again unless the health services are changed to an extent that I do not think this tax incentive is necessary.

The Deputy mentioned the Vote on Account. There is not any Vote on Account.

I understand that. That is why I had no opportunity to raise this before the Budget. I only hope it will be done in next year's Budget.

Support our amendment.

It is not an issue on which I feel sufficiently strong to risk substituting the present good Government for the type of thing we had when we were not in power.

There is another matter with which I am concerned, that is, the method of taxing working husbands and wives. While it is not any great problem in this country yet, it is undoubtedly a big problem in other countries and leads to people setting up house in the form of a loose assocation. Here, from Article 40 of the Constitution right through the pronoucements of every member of this House and the Seanad, we have a tremendous respect for the family. But in section 2 of the Constitution we provide that the State shall endeavour to ensure that no mother shall be obliged to engage in any form of labour—those are the words of the Constitution. I think the State must be more concerned about this provision because under the present tax laws married persons with independent incomes have their incomes added up and taxed jointly. In certain instances, the married woman's earned income allowance cannot exceed £40 a year. This is in fact a tax on marriage which we have adopted into our monetary system, which we have lived with and apparently intend to persist with. You could carry this argument further and say we are in fact bringing in a subsidy on sin.

What this tax means is that any family anxious to increase their status, who decide to do this by their own efforts and labour and to take on two employments and all the difficulties attached thereto for the purpose of giving their children a better education than they can afford on one salary alone, are severely taxed by the State for so doing. This is a matter that requires considerable examination.

Progress reported: Committee to sit again.
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