Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 31 Mar 1966

Vol. 222 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote 45—External Affairs.

Minister for External Affairs (Mr. Aiken)

Tairgim:

Go ndeonófar suim forlíontach nach mó ná £6,900 chun slánaithe na suime is gá chun íochta an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníochta i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1966, le haghaidh Tuarastal agus Costais Oifig an Aire Gnóthaí Eachtracha agus Seirbhisí áirithe atá faoi riaradh na hOifige sin, lena n-áirítear Deontas-i-gCabhair.

This Supplementary Estimate for £6,900 is required to defray the cost of maintaining the mission to the European Offices of the United Nations in Geneva which was opened in June, 1965, and for which no provision was made in the original estimate. Because of the increased use of Geneva by the principal organs and specialised agencies of the United Nations and by other international organisations and because of our active interest in acceding to the GATT whose headquarters are at Geneva, we found that we could not defer any longer the opening of an office in that city. Together with Cyprus and Iceland, we had been the only European member of the UN not represented at Geneva by a permanent delegate.

Among the units of the United Nations Secretariat located in Geneva are the Economic Commission for Europe and the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development, of both of which Ireland is a member. Of the 13 specialised agencies of the United Nations, which have autonomous functions in the economic, social, cultural, educational, health, and related fields, the headquarters of four are located in Geneva. These are the International Labour Office, the World Health Organisation, the International Telecommunications Union and the World Meteorological Organisation, of all of which Ireland is a member. In addition, the headquarters of the General Agreement on Trade and Tariffs and the International Atomic Energy Agency, which are agencies related to the United Nations, and the European Free Trade Association are also located there.

Furthermore, some of the principal organs of the United Nations meet as often in Geneva as they do in New York, particularly the Economic and Social Council and the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development Board and their committees, commissions, etc. Over one-third of all meetings under the auspices of the United Nations and related agencies take place in Geneva, while 19 out of 25 major conferences held under United Nations auspices in the years 1958 to 1964 took place there.

The first Permanent Representative of Ireland in Geneva took up duty there on 22nd June, 1965, and was accredited to the European Office of the United Nations and to the various specialised agencies situated there of which Ireland is a member. He is required in this capacity to attend and to report on such major meetings as the summer session of ECOSOC, which lasts about one month in July-August, the annual session of the Economic Commission for Europe, which meets for about three weeks in April, and the session of the Trade and Development Board, which is held each year in Geneva. He is also required to attend, mainly at the request of other Departments, meetings of the specialised committees and commissions. Prior to the appointment of the Permanent Representative, it was not found possible to service these meetings adequately nor to keep in proper touch with developments in the organisations concerned.

The Permanent Representative has also been specifically assigned to concern himself with the GATT. In this context, he is required to deal with all matters connected with the discussions on the terms of Irish accession to the GATT and with our participation in the Kennedy Round of tariff reductions. In March, 1965, the Contracting Parties adopted procedures for the processing of applications for accession to the GATT under which applicant countries were invited to participate in the Kennedy Round with a view to full accession. The Government has indicated to the GATT its interest in participating under these procedures in the Kennedy Round with a view to accession, and this country's application will probably be the subject of examination by Contracting Parties later this year. In addition to representing Ireland in discussions with the GATT on the terms of accession, it will be necessary for the Permanent Representative to maintain close and continuing contacts, not only with members of the GATT Secretariat but with representatives of individual Contracting Parties in the negotiations for tariff reductions in the Kennedy Round.

Mr. Cosgrave

I wonder would the Minister say if the total of this Supplementary Estimate is required for the European office? As I understand it, this office was opened in June last and the provision is for the period since June until today, 31st March. The position of our application to adhere to the GATT has been referred to by the Minister, and I would be glad to find out from him what exactly is the position of the application. As I understand it, some years ago, we indicated that we wished to adhere to GATT. Then although the application was not withdrawn, action on it was suspended at, I think, the request of the Irish Government. Then some time last year or at the beginning of this year, an indication was given that it was intended, as it was described, to reactivate the application to adhere to the GATT.

As I understand it, the Permanent Representative assigned to the United Nations Office in Geneva is concerned with the GATT, but owing to the fact that we are not are present members of it, he is not accredited to the GATT. I would be interested to hear from the Minister what is the precise position at present of the application to adhere to the GATT and if negotiations are in train to have this country's application to adhere to it considered.

The appointment of a Permanent Representative for Europe of course indicates a further expansion of our services, and in that connection I would be interested to hear whether the particular office will have anything to do other than to represent this country at the United Nations in Geneva or the specialised agencies. Will the particular person have any functions in respect of trade, or is this in fact a political office, with the exception of the fact that certain specialised agencies of the United Nations deal in a general way with trade functions? Other than that, will this particular office deal in any way with it on behalf of this country?

Mr. O'Leary

My Party are very glad to see the interest in our Department increasing its participation in the United Nations Organisation. We feel that as an Opposition Party in this House we should, if possible, make our views as Opposition Parties on the conduct of our External Affairs Department and this country's foreign affairs generally heard to greater effect in this House. I sometimes feel that the affairs of the Department of External Affairs are in some way immune from realistic discussion in this House, due to some idea amongst Deputies of all Parties that discussion of foreign affairs, so to speak, is not something —and I suppose they are correct in this—that can either catch votes or matter very much at the grass roots of politics in this country, but if they are sincere about feeling that the House has any claim to be a parliament, it should at least make its views known on occasion on our foreign policy. I feel myself somewhat disappointed by our foreign policy in recent years as conducted by the Minister and his Department.

Acting Chairman (Mr. Booth)

The Deputy will appreciate, of course, that these are matters that should be raised on the main Estimate and not on a Supplementary Estimate?

Mr. O'Leary

I am speaking of our participation in the United Nations and am very glad to see our increasing participation in it. Therefore, can I not speak on our increased participation in it?

Acting Chairman

This is an illusion which I must try to dispel. This is not a discussion on our participation in the United Nations, but simply on additional expenditure to be incurred in connection with the office in Geneva.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

Would the Chair not agree that this is a discussion which centres upon the fact of our participation in the Kennedy Round of discussions, which is under the auspices of the United Nations and of GATT, so that, therefore, it does rather throw the thing wide open for discussion?

Acting Chairman

It is not actually, I feel, a discussion on the Kennedy Round at all. It is a matter as to whether the country should participate in the activities of the United Nations through the office in Geneva, and does not allow for general discussion on United Nations policy.

Mr. O'Leary

The Supplementary Estimate provides for increasing participation by this country in United Nations activities——

Acting Chairman

We shall deal with this on the main Estimate.

Mr. O'Leary

I merely wished to give notice that when the main Estimate comes before the House, my Party feel that foreign affairs should be the subject of much wider debate.

Mr. Aiken

The Deputy will get an opportunity in a few weeks because my Estimate will be brought forward early.

Mr. O'Leary

I am very glad of that. One of the areas in respect of which my Party are disappointed that this country is not participating more fully is in international affairs, particularly in the emerging African countries. We are extremely disappointed in the attitude this country adopts generally in this respect. We seem to be more interested in the uplands of Tibet than in affairs nearer home, in Africa and so on.

Acting Chairman

I am afraid the Deputy is straying again. I do not wish to restrict him but the main Vote for External Affairs will come up later and the Deputy will have his opportunity. On the Supplementary Estimate we are restricted.

Mr. O'Leary

At any rate, we welcome this increased participation by the Government in the affairs of the United Nations. Our advice as a Party is that in this increased participation, we should not be afraid to be realistic in our policy; we should not be too worried about offending some of the more influential great powers of the world. It is regrettable that some of the European nations, most of whom are in NATO, particularly the Scandinavian countries, seem to have more independent policies than we have and we are supposed to be the original neutral. Far from being neutral, we do not appear to support the better British and American policies but do appear to support the worst British and American policies. While the Minister is gathering up the money for this office in Geneva, I should like him to take notice that my Party intend to come out pretty honestly on the main Estimate.

Ireland may be a small power but that is no reason why, having decent domestic policies ourselves at home, we should not look abroad for an extension of those policies. In this year of all years, with the sort of resurgence of national spirit that has come about in this country, the Minister should welcome a situation in which there was real criticism. Argument in this House on external affairs is generally restricted to asking how much the Minister spent on a sandwich in Geneva or some other place, rather than seeking to find out the Minister's foreign policy, the Government's foreign policy and how it affects this country abroad. The lack of such criticism is indeed unfair to the Minister and to the very able officers in his Department. I fail to see the logic in our inability to make some condemnation of the policies of the South African Government during the past few years. It is only because Britain has had a row in Rhodesia that we saw fit in the past few weeks——

Acting Chairman

The Deputy is straying again.

Mr. O'Leary

One of the big problems I should like to hear debated here is America's policy in Vietnam and here I invoke a name, Robert Kennedy——

Acting Chairman

Again, I must remind the Deputy that I cannot allow him to follow this line. He is getting on to general policy.

Mr. O'Leary

My purpose is to suggest that my Party are anxious—we appreciate it will not mean many No. I votes for us—to discuss foreign affairs in this House. We realise it may appear pretentious for a Party of 21 to seek to raise foreign affairs but if this Parliament is to have any adult status in the world, this is an area which must be debated more widely and the Minister and his Department subjected to intelligent examination in the House.

I give notice to the Minister that the foreign policy pursued by this country during the past few years will be subjected to sharp scrutiny by my Party when the main Estimate comes before the House. I hope it will not be in the too distant future because many of the subjects we wish to see debated have not been discussed in the House for some time. We intend to bring them into real discussion in the House and we feel this will be of assistance to the Minister in getting a realistic idea of what our foreign policy should be. For some time it has been the creature of a very small circle and it is time we widened this circle so that Ireland will have a policy in keeping with the twentieth century.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

I welcome the Supplementary Estimate as an indication that the Government have definitely decided to accede to GATT. I appreciate our difficulties because under the terms of GATT we were tied, to a certain extent, by the most favoured nation clause until such time as we achieved some sort of free trade association. This Supplementary Estimate is one of the off-shoots of the Free Trade Agreement with the United Kingdom. The fact that we have appointed, or are about to appoint, a Permanent Representative in Geneva is an indication that we are serious in our application to accede to GATT. I have no doubt our application will be successful.

This is a late application and I understand that the negotiations that will take place—they will be largely agricultural—under the aegis of the United Nations have to commence under the Kennedy Round in or about May. That seems to be the extreme date, if I may use the term, inside which they have got to be held. If this Supplementary Estimate does nothing else, it modifies the foreign policy of this Government which has always been rather obscure to me. This is a global decision and therefore I welcome it the more.

It is obvious to all of us that if we are to participate in international discussions, all the more so if they are in relation to agriculture, we have got to accede to GATT. In this respect I should like to ask one or two questions. In his opening statement the Minister points out that we are members of the International Labour Office, the World Health Organisation, the International Telecommunications Union and the World Meteorological Organisation. The offices of all of these Organisations are in Geneva. Who represented us hitherto at meetings of these organisations? Have we had a civil servant to act for us or had we somebody on the spot already? I understand we have a legation in Switzerland. Are the members of that legation sufficient to enable us to be represented at discussions of these organisations? We should have somebody in such an important centre as Geneva. We are, too, members, through the United Nations Organisation, of the FAO, through our Minister for Agriculture. I speak subject to correction in that. It may be that direct representation lies in External Affairs. I know there is a European representative of FAO based on Geneva.

These are points that need clarification. If we are to deal with international affairs, as quite obviously we must, becoming a member of the Common Market overnight, then we shall have equally to deal with European affairs. I am rather sceptical about that overnight myself. I see the Chair looking at me and smiling rather superciliously, but I should like the Minister to convey these comments to the Taoiseach. It seems to me we should have a representative to deal with all these international organisations. The cost is small— £6,500 as against nearly £250 million, which is our annual Budget. We should have someone there.

I should also like the Minister to tell us if we are now definitely acceding to GATT. Quite obviously we are anxious to take part in the Kennedy Round negotiations. Could the Minister tell the House if these negotiations will start in May? As they are likely to start before we discuss the main Estimate, could the Minister tell us who will represent us at these negotiations? I should like to feel we were represented at political level, as are all other countries. It is only at political level—many years in the Council of Europe have taught me that—that one can achieve anything. I should not like to feel we were represented at GATT negotiations, whether in Geneva on a European basis, or in the United Nations on a global basis, by a civil servant. We should be represented by the Minister. It is his function to represent us on all matters relating to external policy. I should be very happy to know that, so long as the Fianna Fáil Government remain in office, the Minister will be our representative at these all-important discussions. They are more than important to the Irish economy as a whole.

Mr. Aiken

Deputy Cosgrave asked to what period this Supplementary Estimate refers. It refers to the financial year ending today. The Book of Estimates carries a sum for the office in the coming financial year. Deputy Cosgrave and Deputy Esmonde were interested in the negotiations with GATT. We did apply to the authorities of GATT indicating that we were interested in finding out on what conditions we could become members as far back as 1960. The recent Trade Agreement with Britain and other developments have led the Government to seek once more to get close contact with the GATT authorities to find out what conditions would be offered to us, were we to become members. One of these days a sub-committee of the GATT organisation will go into our case. We will be represented at that committee by a representative from the Department of External Affairs, the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Industry and Commerce. When the committee has examined our case, they will report to the general body. We shall then see how the matter stands.

In all these international associations and meetings, we try to be represented adequately. Representatives of the Departments concerned attend, accompanied by an officer of the Department of External Affairs either from home or from Berne. The meetings have become very numerous and our renewed application for membership of GATT required that we review the situation. We have done so and we have found it would be more satisfactory now to have a permanent representative in Geneva. All other European countries, with the exception of two small countries like ourselves, Iceland and Cyprus, have found that, too.

There is no use in my attempting to prophesy what the future of our activated application to GATT will be. We will have to await developments. We shall have an opportunity of discussing these matters on the main Estimate for the Department of External Affairs. I had hoped to introduce that Estimate this week but, owing to the long debate on the Budget, that was not possible. It will be introduced as quickly as we can get down to it after Easter.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

Could the Minister tell us what nations are represented on the sub-committee sitting on our application for accession to GATT? Does he know?

Mr. Aiken

I cannot name them. I have heard them but I will not depend on memory to reply to that question.

Mr. O'Leary

Would the Minister have any details there?

Mr. Aiken

No.

Vote put and agreed to.