asked the Minister for Local Government if he is aware that the money notified by his Department to Dublin County Council for the building of local authority houses is less than sufficient to complete the houses started in 1965; and that no further houses can be started during 1966; and what action he proposes to take to meet this situation.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Housing Finances.
15.
The capital allocations to housing authorities for local authority housing was based on information furnished by them in regard to the amount of their commitments in the current year arising from works already in progress, together with a provision for new work. In the case of Dublin County Council, £160,000 was allocated for commitments and £160,000 for new work. The commitments figure was based on an estimate of £164,213, in respect of expenditure out of approved loans, which was furnished by the council on 11th February. The £160,000 allocated for new work was intended to cover estimated expenditure in 1966-67 on the Swords and Kilmacud schemes, subject to the council's decision on priorities.
Following notification to the council of their allocation, they represented, as a result of further examination of their commitments, that their allocation was inadequate. While it is clear that their earlier estimate, on which the allocation was based, was underestimated, their revised estimate of commitments includes provision for payments, such as retention money on contracts, which may not become due this year. Moreover, a substantial element of expenditure which is not covered by approved loans is also included.
While the possibility of any major adjustment in their favour is limited at this stage, I am having the council's position further examined, together with that of a few other authorities who have submitted similar revisions of their earlier estimates.
Is the Minister not aware that we need approximately 1,000 houses in County Dublin and that the moneys notified only permit us to start work on the Swords scheme, that all the other schemes in the county will have to sit down for 12 months and that we will not be able to purchase any further sites or do any development as a result of the smallness of the amount?
I do not fully agree that this will enable only the Swords scheme to be commenced this year.
That is the manager's view.
Despite the fact that it may be his view, I do not agree with it. I believe that some other work can be started and, in fact, that the Kilmacud scheme is likely to be started under the allocation granted.
No scheme can be started and finished. Is the Minister aware that schemes planned and passed cannot be started at all?
This would be quite true, unless there is quite an improvement in the capital situation, but it is also true that, nine cases out of ten, no worthwhile housing job commences and finishes within the same financial year.
I appreciate that.
16.
asked the Minister for Local Government if he is aware that the money notified by his Department to Dublin County Council for house purchase loans is only sufficient to meet loans sanctioned before 31st December, 1965, and that £842,000 would be required to meet 344 applications on hands and awaiting approval; and what action he proposes to take in the matter.
The allocation of £650,000 to Dublin County Council in respect of house purchase loans for 1966-67 is more than sufficient to cover the total amount of their commitments and of all loans provisionally approved by them. This allocation compares with total issues of £250,000 and £480,000 from the Local Loans Fund to the council in 1964-65 and 1965-66, respectively. It should be noted that the capital allocation relates to payments, which in the normal course are less than allocations, and that it assumes a carry forward into 1967-68 of an equivalent amount of commitments as were carried into 1966-67. It should, therefore, be possible for the council to allocate a substantial number of new loans in 1966-67. I propose to review the position, in detail, with the housing authority on this basis.
The Minister must be completely wrongly informed about all this. Is he not aware that the money that has been notified is only sufficient to meet loans sanctioned before 31st December and that we did not sanction any loans since September and that we have on hands 344 applicants for whom nothing can be done? Is he further aware that in many of these cases the builder has accepted deposits of up to £300? I have had one builder with 90 such deposits. Is the Minister further aware that these people have half their furniture in the houses——
The Deputy is making a speech.
I am asking the Minister is he aware of the desperate situation which exists.
The Deputy should not ask the Minister "Is he aware...." and then make a speech.
I have not a reputation for making speeches.
I am aware of what is going on in County Dublin and of what the situation is. I do not at all wish to convey that they have all the money they want but at the same time I do not accept that the picture is as bad as it has been represented to the Deputy. On foot of what I have said today, it is my intention to review the position further in regard to these loan moneys with Dublin County Council in the immediate future.
If the position is wrongly represented to us, the members of the county council, how are we to get to the bottom of it? We have been given a report by the county manager that this is the situation and I know from the number of people who are following me about loans every day that it must be the position.
I merely repeat that the money allocated for this purpose is more than sufficient to cover the total amount of the commitments of Dublin County Council in all their loans provisionally approved and, in addition, it should be possible for the council to allocate a certain number of new loans.
That is not the position at present.
The Minister referred to a carry-forward of loans. Would he say if he approves of the idea that a local authority should sanction loans for a number of applicants when they have not got money? Is the Minister prepared to allow a local authority to sanction the granting of loans to applicants, even though there is no money available in the current year, on the chance that it may become available next year?
Let me put it another way: In this particular of unprecedented demand for money——
By the Government.
(Interruptions.)
You have not the price of a wheelbarrow.
Would the Minister not correctly describe it as "the black year".
No; that was 1956.
I shall give the Deputy the figures later and he will see that my description is correct.
Would "the bust year" not be the correct description?
Every county manager is out of step except the Minister.
The word "bust" will not offend the Ceann Comhairle as a speech.
I do not think constant interruptions will help.
All that we have is words and words are no substitute for money.
We had a fine record of housing when in office.
Would Deputy Flanagan please allow the Minister to speak?
He has no answer to that one. Everybody knows there is no money.
Does the Minister appreciate that the moneys we have received in Dublin County Council are to pay last year's debts?
I am aware that the money allocated for Dublin County Council is more than they have been able to use for the past two or three years and that is something the Deputy should keep in mind when talking about these things here at this time. I am further aware that at this time the demand for money is unprecedented —the Opposition can have their own version of that; they have already said there is unprecedented demand—for housing of all descriptions and in view of that, is it asking too much to ask that councils should in fact continue to furnish themselves with the wherewithal at least equal to that with which they furnished themselves in the past rather than come rushing in now to get it all from the central Government which they did not do in the past?
They cannot get it from the banks.
The banks are not as black as they are painted. There are banks that are giving council treasurers as much as, or more than they gave in other years.
The Milford scheme could not get it in County Donegal and well the Minister knows it. The Hibernian Bank refused them.
(Interruptions.)
I want to say and repeat, if necessary, in order that those who do not want to hear, will hear, that there is no reason why debts that have been carried year after year, substituted by new ones, must be cleared off this year just because there is unprecedented demand for the money that is available. Why should the slate be cleaned this year? That is what some councils are doing.
A local authority before they can give a grant must have money. They must have money or a person cannot start a house.
That is not so. That has never obtained.
The Minister's advisers behind him must be living in a different country. Telling lies about it will not get us out of trouble.
(Interruptions.)
Surely the Minister knows what Deputy Tully says is true?
(Interruptions.)
You are all trying to say the same thing. "Bust" is the word.
They have no money for housing and they are leaving the people in the pigsties.
"Bust"
Do something for the unfortunate marchers at the gate.
17.
asked the Minister for Local Government if he will state in relation to moneys notified by his Department for house purchase loans and local authority house building when these moneys will be made available to the local authorities.
Housing authorities have been requested to furnish estimates of their anticipated draws from the Local Loans Fund for each quarter of the present financial year on foot of their housing capital allocations for 1966-67. It is intended that issues will be made from the Fund from time to time to each authority on the basis of actual demands related to these estimates. In the meantime it is open to authorities to draw on loans already approved, and issues are being made at present from the Fund on this basis. Where additional loans are required these will be approved on the basis of the allocations.
Is the Minister aware that at present there is not a pound in the county council in Dublin to pay loans or portion of loans still outstanding? Is he aware that this is keeping people out of their houses and involving them in loan charges on what they have already got, plus what they are paying for temporary accommodation?
I have already said that loans for Dublin County Council as well as for local authorities elsewhere are being issued and instalments are being issued and will continue to be issued in line with the commitments made.
Can the Minister say when the next instalment will arrive, approximately?
That will depend on what the situation is in regard to need, when it has been applied for, when sought.
The need is there.
18.
asked the Minister for Local Government if he is aware that output in the private sector of the building industry is less than 50 per cent of normal owing to shortage of money; and, if so, what steps he proposes to take to put this important industry back into full production.
I do not know the basis on which the Deputy arrived at the figure of "50 per cent of normal". The recent statement by the Federation of Builders, Contractors and Allied Employers referred to the results of a survey carried out by the Federation in the Dublin area in February, 1966, which they said indicated a level of activity in private house building of 49 per cent of normal, without an indication of what is to be understood by "normal". The number of houses for which grants were paid by my Department in the Dublin area in 1965-66 was the highest since separate statistics for that area became available 12 years ago.
So far as housing, sanitary and other services for which I am responsible are concerned, I would refer the Deputy to the provision in the Capital Budget for the current financial year of £24 million, which is the highest amount ever provided by the Government for these services, and compares with an estimated out-turn of £23.27 million in 1965-66 and expenditure of £18.93 million in 1964-65. The current year's provision contains £10.01 million for loans and State and supplementary grants for private housing as against £9.05 million in 1965-66. In addition, I have been informed by the principal building societies and assurance companies who make house purchase loans that the amount of such loans they hope to advance in the current year, at about £11.5 million, will be approximately the same as the amount they advanced in 1965.
How much of that total figure is in Ballymun?
There is none of that total.
Of the £24 million, yes, surely?
Of the £24 million, yes.
How much?
There will be an amount in it when the year is out.
How much?
Possibly up to £3 million.
Is that not the reason there is a shortage elsewhere, that it has all been squeezed into Ballymun?
The Deputy indicated that there was a shortage last year when no figure went into Ballymun.
There was a shortage and people were looking for money all right.
The Minister says he does not believe this survey.
What survey?
This survey by the master builders in the Dublin region.
How can one believe or disbelieve it?
Out of 67 people written to, 61 replied.
This is the first time that people replied in such numbers to give any statistic required of them, even for their own good.
Will the Minister accept that they are doing this simply because they are at 50 per cent of their normal output?
I do not believe that, nor have they qualified what they mean by "normal", as I have said.
The Minister will not accept that and will not accept the county manager's estimate, either.
Why should I accept what I know is not so?
The Minister is the only one right about the building situation.
This can be quite true, yes.
No shortage of capital for building.
Deputies have heard me say it already that there were unprecedented demands which were never attained by any Government in any year.
Backlog—debts.
No, no.
Arrears?
Last year's figure also was greater than at any other time.
There is a demand for money now which cannot be met.