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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 17 May 1966

Vol. 222 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Vote 35—Lands.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £3,155,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1967, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Offices of the Minister for Lands and of the Irish Land Commission.

In line with the agreed procedure adopted for the last two years, I propose to take the Votes for Lands and Forestry together this year also. Accordingly, in my opening remarks, I shall refer to Votes 35 and 36 and at the conclusion of the discussion, the motion in respect of Vote 35 will be put to the House. Vote 36 will then be formally moved.

The Lands Vote, No. 35, shows a net decrease of £259,700 compared with last year. I shall commence by explaining the salient features of this Estimate—especially those items which reflect a significant change from last year's provision—and continue with a review of the principal activities of the Land Commission during the year ended 31st March last.

Provision for salaries, wages and allowances is made under Subhead A. The additional amount, namely £75,000, required this year is partly attributable to salary increases which were granted following the preparation of last year's estimate and to increases in staff numbers. In particular, I am arranging for a telling increase in the inspectorate staff, as I am anxious to get on with the rapid disposal of acquired land and equally to move promptly on the inspection of properties brought to notice. An extra 25 posts are authorised; some were recently recruited and have taken up duty. I have also introduced a new post of Deputy Chief Inspector, headquartered in the West, with assigned responsibility for enlarging, co-ordinating and guiding the campaign towards purposeful Land Settlement which I am determined to have there. The allotment of the Oranmore and Browne Estate amongst upwards of 50 allottees was very welcome. This property of 1,000 acres was aggregated with other nearby lands in the possession of the Land Commission with the result that it was possible to frame a comprehensive and satisfying resettlement scheme for the particular area, embracing enlargements, rearrangements, part-exchanges and a number of new full holdings; this is illustrative of the type of land structural reform which I would hope to see accomplished more generally in the years ahead.

The first part of Subhead B relates for the most part to travelling and subsistence expenses incurred in connection with the inspection, survey and allotment of lands under the Land Acts. Provision for incidental and miscellaneous expenses such as advertisements, etc., is also included. The extra amount, namely £8,050, this year is required for the most part to meet the travelling and subsistence expenses of the inspection outdoor staff.

Part (2) of Subhead B provides for payment direct to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs for all services rendered by that Department. This has now become standard procedure. The total amount required this year is £48,000.

The moneys required under Subhead D are in the nature of statutory commitments. They represent the tax-payers' contribution in the current year towards the service of land purchase debt accumulated, since 1923, on both tenanted and untenanted land. The total contribution this year, viz. £1,108,770, constitutes the biggest individual item in the Vote and represents 35 per cent of the entire net Estimate. Of the total Subhead provision, some £954,600 will be utilised to make good deficiencies in the Land Bond Fund arising from the statutory halving of annuities under the Land Act, 1933. Indeed, the overall increase of £52,830 in the Subhead this year is attributable mainly to the halving of purchase instalments payable by new allottees as land settlement proceeds.

Deputies will, of course, be aware that under the provisions of section 7 of the Land Act, 1965 certain classes of persons who now receive allotments of land on an annuity basis in non-congested areas do not benefit from the halving of annuities under the Land Act, 1933, the classes being (i) recipients of enlargements, and (ii) cottiers and other persons who get allotments in non-congested areas. But all allottees in congested areas, together with migrants and displaced employees getting holdings in non-congested areas, continue to get the benefit of the halving of annuities.

Section 24 of the Land Act, 1965, provides that whenever a purchase annuity lapses by reason of the operation of the Statute of Limitations, 1957, the resultant deficit shall not remain a charge on the ratepayers but shall, where necessary, be defrayed out of public funds. A number of annuities payable out of holdings situated mainly on remote islands are becoming affected by the Statute of Limitations, 1957. Subhead D includes a sum of £150 to meet resultant deficiencies in the current year.

As I am referring to the 1965 Land Act, I might mention that before the provisions could be fully implemented it was necessary to make statutory regulations under certain of the vital sections. Some of these regulations were by their very nature very complex and had to receive careful examination by the Attorney General, the Parliamentary Draftsman and by my other advisers. I was not, therefore, in a position until February of this year to operate the order implementing provisions in section 13 of the Land Act, 1965 for a "stop notice" in land sales. Broadly speaking, the same considerations apply to sections 5 and 6 of the Act, to which I will be referring in more detail later on.

As this subhead is in four separate parts, I think I can best deal with it by referring to each part individually.

Subhead G.1 involves two items, namely, the purchase of land by the Land Commission for cash in the open market and the provision of life annuities under section 6 of the Land Act, 1965. Up to last year, cash purchases under section 27, Land Act, 1950 were restricted to lands required for migrants' holdings or for rearrangement of fragmented holdings. As Deputies are aware, however, these hampering restrictions have been set aside by the repeals section of the Land Act, 1965 and purchases for cash can now be made for all the general purposes of the Land Acts. During the year ended 31st March last, a total of 68 properties, aggregating 4,326 acres, were purchased for cash under section 27 at a price of £338,000.

Section 6 of the Land Act, 1965, provides that where elderly, incapacitated or blind persons voluntarily sell their interest in land to the Land Commission, the Land Commission may, at the option of the vendor, and in lieu of payment in cash in whole or in part of the purchase price, provide the vendor with a life annuity. Substantial progress has been made with the Department of Finance on the preparation of the detailed regulations and actuarial tables which are necessary to make the section fully operative and these regulations will be finalised shortly. It is encouraging to note that some 57 applications or inquiries relating to section 6 have been received to date and will be dealt with when the regulations are operative.

The funds being provided this year under Subhead G.1 amount to £175,000 —representing a cut back of £190,000 on last year's provision. I need hardly remind Deputies that in common with other Departments, the Lands programme has necessarily to bear some limitations on public spending just at the present time. However, the main bulk of land acquisition by the Land Commission is financed in land bonds issued under Land Bond Orders made annually by the Minister for Finance. A new series of bonds, of the total amount of £2.5 million bearing interest at the rate of 7 per cent per annum has been created by the Land Bond Order, 1966, for use in the current year. This large amount of £2½ million should more than compensate for the temporary curtailment which is unavoidable in the cash sector, in the present stringency. The cash provision has, of course, in the past proved a decided advantage to the Land Commission in purchasing some useful properties which would otherwise have fallen into the hands of non-nationals. This danger, however, has now been eliminated as section 45 of the Land Act, 1965, provides a system of absolute control by the Land Commission over such purchases. Taking these factors into account and having regard to the strengthened acquisition and resumption powers of the Land Commission which will have the effect of speeding up considerably the acquisition of vacant and let lands, I felt that for this single year we might tolerate a cut back on this Subhead and at the same time maintain the land intake figure at a satisfactory level.

The second part of Subhead G stems from section 5 of the Land Act, 1965, which enables the Land Commission to make loans to progressive farmers in congested areas for the purchase of viable farms of their choice, subject to making their existing lands available to the Land Commission for land settlement purposes. As in the case of the life-annuities scheme under section 6, appropriate regulations requiring the consent of the Minister for Finance are necessary before the loans scheme can be operated and these regulations are expected to be ready at an early date. A sum of £45,000 is proposed for the scheme in the current year.

Subhead G.3 provides £10,000 for payment in cash of compensation for tenancy interests resumed on the small outstanding residue of Congested Districts Board estates. The fourth and final part of the subhead relates to the payment by the Land Commission of auctioneers' commission on relevant purchases of land for cash and land bonds. The amount provided for this purpose last year was £35,000 and it is anticipated that £70,000 will be required this year. This is a big figure but I welcome it and I hasten to acknowledge the co-operation of auctioneers and the new disposition that has been found between them and my Department. I should say that the provision has proved a decided asset in inspiring the voluntary sale of properties and my own preference is for voluntary rather than compulsory transactions.

Subhead H provides the funds for payment of gratuities, pursuant to section 29 of the Land Act, 1950, to persons displaced from employment on estates taken over by the Land Commission for distribution. Last year, gratuities totalling £14,452 were paid to 64 ex-employees—an average of £225 each. Perhaps I should reiterate that displaced employees who are deemed competent to work land are automatically considered for allotments—indeed, this is only right and proper—but, where they are not found to be suitable for allotments, they are considered by the Land Commission for a cash gratuity, depending on such factors as length of service, personal and family circumstances, availability of alternative employment and so on. It is difficult to make an accurate forecast of commitments under the subhead in any particular year because this depends on the level of acquisition activity and the extent to which estate workers become displaced from employment through these activities. With continuing impetus in the acquisition sector, it is anticipated that £14,000 will be required for the current year.

Subhead I—£675,000—in the main, provides the funds required to meet the cost of the various estate improvement works which are such an important feature of land settlement. These works include the erection of dwelling houses and out-offices; the provision of access roads; fencing and drainage; provision of water supply for domestic and stock requirements; turbary development; repair and maintenance of embankments. Subhead I is invariably a popular debating sector in the Lands Vote. Last year, the amount provided under Subhead I was £900,000 and expenditure totalled approximately £908,000, including about £552,000 on building works. Some 630 men were employed on the various improvement works in the course of the year and their wage bill amounted to almost £264,000. I might mention here that the Land Commission have recently undertaken, on an experimental basis, the erection of a new type of out-office on holdings being provided for migrants and displaced employees. This consists of a three-bay hayshed with lean-to byre for twelve cows with feed store and dairy. Technical opinion is that this type of flexible accommodation will constitute a good basic set of out-buildings which will be readily adaptable.

Having regard to the current acute pressure on resources the provision under Subhead I for the coming year has been fixed at £675,000. This will mean that the building programme which normally accounts for a very large proportion of expenditure under the Subhead will have to be curtailed for the year ahead. I can assure the House, however, that there will be no slackening in the tempo of other land structural reform measures. Special emphasis will be given to the direct allotment of additional land to bring smallholders up to the current family farm standard. The provision of buildings does not generally arise in these cases and the usual range of estate improvements works—roads, fences and drains—will be carried through as far as practicable.

Deputies will notice that a new subitem entitled "Housing Loans" has been inserted in the Subhead. This refers to the scheme under which advances up to £500 are made to farmers to supplement grants from the Department of Local Government for the erection of new houses and for reconstruction work on existing houses. During the past year the total amount sanctioned for this purpose was £116,000.

While on the subject of estate improvements, I should say that work study techniques continue to be applied to Land Commission fencing, drainage and roadmaking operations. Since the introduction of the Incentive Bonus Scheme six years ago the productivity of Land Commission workers has increased by 58 per cent. During the past financial year alone, the scheme resulted in increased earnings, aggregating £33,100, for the workmen, while increased productivity resulted in savings worth £60,700 in the cost of the improvements works concerned.

Grants for the preservation and improvement of game resources are provided under Subhead L—£60,000—to assist Regional Game Councils, representative of all appropriate interests, in carrying out approved locally-organised schemes of direct improvement to game. In the main, these schemes include provision for the re-stocking of game, improvement of habitat and selective control of predators. Despite the prevailing economic stringency, it has been found possible this year again to increase the provision for game development.

Good progress continues to be made by the 24 Game Councils which have been established throughout the country. Last year grants totalling some £40,000 were paid in respect of current schemes of game improvement in addition to grants amounting to £5,210 in respect of some previous years' schemes.

The 1965 hatching and rearing programme of the Quarantine Station operated by the County Dublin Game Council, to which I referred when speaking on last year's Estimate, was, I am glad to say, very successful. Deputies may be interested to learn that over 5,000 game birds, pheasant, partridge and quail were successfully reared and distributed to Game Councils and others concerned with game breeding. This hatch is, I think, very nearly a record.

These birds have been well received by the game councils and there are hopes for an overall improvement in the quality of our stocks. Consideration is being given to further importation of game birds' eggs and, in this context, consultations are taking place between my Department and the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries with a view to establishing a suitable balance between the hatching and rearing of birds of native strains and of imported strains at the Quarantine Station.

I spoke last year about the importance of the setting up of sanctuaries or refuges for game birds, particularly for wildfowl, native and migratory, and referred to our international responsibilities for the conservation of the migratory species. On my recent visit to England to study the practice of game and wildlife development there, I was particularly struck by the cordial co-operation between sporting, agricultural and nature conservation interests. I saw very quickly that the work of conservationists and that of sportsmen are not inimical but are, in fact, complementary and of mutual benefit. I would like to see similar co-operation here—particularly in a national build-up of conservancy or "bird refuge" areas where wildfowl can be encouraged to breed. This would be of tremendous benefit to our sportsmen as a whole; they should realise that "conservation" today simply means wise and careful management and development of our resources for man's use and benefit.

The aim of conservation and development measures is to build up and maintain sound stocks of game and native-breeding wildfowl, to cater for the legitimate needs of our sportsmen and of visitors alike. As was recently announced, I have appointed a joint management committee, comprising senior officers of my Department and of Bord Fáilte, for the specific purpose of developing projects for the provision, promotion and sale of shooting for visiting sportsmen.

The co-operation and goodwill of local game development interests will, of course, be essential factors in the success of the work of this committee. In order to assure in advance full understanding of the functions and objectives of the committee, I recently convened a meeting of representatives of all game councils, at which this matter and also all aspects of local game development were discussed in a frank and cordial atmosphere. I am happy to say that the setting-up of the committee and its intended lines of activity met with general acceptance on the part of the game councils.

I want to emphasise that the committee will in its activities be seriously concerned to ensure that conflict or rivalry will not arise between our sportsmen and gunclubs on the one hand and the genuine sporting visitor on the other.

The Game Branch of my Department has been strengthened by the recruitment of scientific and advisory personnel; arrangements have been made for specialised training of these officers in up-to-date techniques of game management and conservation and their knowledge and experience will soon be available to Regional Game Councils and others engaged in the conservation and improvement of our game resources. This will enable the Department to take a much more active part in game development generally.

I have dealt in some detail with the more important subheads of the Lands Vote. As the remaining items are either unchanged from last year or else are token provisions, they do not seem to call for specific comment, but if Deputies wish to obtain further information about them I shall, of course, gladly supply it. I propose, therefore, to continue by reviewing the principal activities of the Land Commission during the year ended 31st March last. In some instances the statistics are still provisional but they are unlikely to vary to any significant extent from the final returns. The over-all results are very satisfactory.

On the acquisition side, the aggregate area inspected during the year was 67,000 acres while the total intake of land amounted to about 33,000 acres. As the total area in the acquisition machine at 31st March, 1966, amounted to about 63,000 acres, acquisition prospects for the current year also are particularly good.

As regards land settlement, the total area allotted amongst some 2,650 allottees was in the region of 50,000 acres which is amongst the best achievements since the war and is the result of very solid and sustained effort. The acreage distributed included the provision of 120 fully-equipped holdings for migrants and the rearrangement of 500 fragmented holdings. In all 150 new dwellinghouses and 227 new out-offices were provided for tenants and allottees during the year. With the increased staff that has been made available I am hopeful that this accelerated rate of land division can be maintained in the present year.

The vesting of holdings and allotments was continued and, in all, approximately 3,200 holdings, parcels and rights of turbary were dealt with. Tenanted land—including residues of CDB estates—outstanding for vesting at 31st March, 1966, comprises approximately 6,400 holdings. These residual holdings, situated for the most part in western congested counties, now represent the remaining hard core of difficult tenanted land cases: they are being released for vesting according as the necessary rearrangement, enlargement or other improvement is carried out.

The position as regards collection of land annuities continues satisfactory. Out of a collectable total of £2,655,043 for the year, the amount actually collected by 31st March, 1966, was £2,526,212.

I have already referred to the fact that there is now in operation a system of direct control by the Land Commission over the purchase of rural land by persons who are not "qualified persons" as defined in section 45 of the Land Act, 1965—principally non-nationals. It is probably true to say that the measures taken are acting as a brake on the inflationary trend in agricultural land prices which now appear to have reverted to a more reasonable level. On the whole the general guideline in force is that permission would not be granted to non-nationals to purchase land in order to engage simply in those forms or lines of production commonly practised by our own farmers; "white-elephant" properties unable or unlikely to attract Irish purchasers in the market could be entertained for sale to outsiders.

A non-national who could illustrate that he was going in for some special line with expertise and capital to back it up, and with export possibilities, could very well be acceptable. Since the passing of the Land Act, 1965, on 9th March, 1965, up to 31st March, 1966, the number of non-national purchases exceeding 50 acres permitted has been 22, amounting to 5,100 acres. Of this acreage, half was accounted for by three transactions affecting large properties, that is to say: (a) an extensive area noted as a wildfowl habitat; (b) a substantial property encumbered with buildings carrying a rateable valuation of £162. 10; and (c) a large stud farm disposed of as a going concern.

Turning to the Forestry Vote there is a net decrease of £204,200 in the amount being provided as compared with the Vote for 1965-66. While there are a number of changes, upwards or downwards in other subheads, this decrease reflects a drop of £201,500 in the provision for Forest Development and Management. This arises mainly from the decision of the Government to cut back planting in 1966-67 to 20,000 acres but is also influenced by other economies arising from the use of new and improved methods.

The decision to confine the planting programme to 20,000 acres in 1966-67 was taken in the context of the Government's general policy in relation to the stabilisation of State expenditure and in particular of public capital expenditure. Taking the individual headings of the Vote, the position is as follows:

Subhead A—£760,000—provides for salaries, wages and allowances and shows an increase of £101,990 over the original provision for 1965-66 of £658,010, and of £82,349 over the actual out turn for the year. The out-turn in 1965-66 was greater than the provision because of some salary increases not provided for in the original Estimate. This year's figure includes provision for additional forester staff and allows also for the impact of normal incremental progression.

The provision under Subhead B.1 —£155,500—for Travelling and Incidental Expenses shows an increase of £10,300 on the provision for 1965-66 and an increase of £3,584 on the actual outturn of £152,016 for that year. Increases in travelling costs, arising in the main from continuing expansion of activities, have been partly offset by anticipated savings on "Advertising and Publicity".

The provision in Subhead B.2 for Post Office Services at £34,000 shows a decrease of £3,500 on the provision for 1965-66. The actual out turn in that year was £37,383.

Subhead C.1 is a Grant-in-Aid for the acquisition of land. The balance in the Fund at the end of 1965-66 was £141,732 so that a total of £281,732 will be available for land purchase in 1966-67.

Expenditure in 1965-66 totalled £115,822 and covered purchase of 21,645 acres in 486 individual transactions. The productive area acquired was only slightly over 18,000 acres and was, I regret to say, the lowest annual intake of productivity lands since 1956-57. Experience during the past year shows increasing difficulty in maintaining an adequate intake of plantable land and the prospects of improvement in the current year are not bright. Our plantable reserve position, at an effective level of only about 50,000 acres, is, however, much too low for proper and orderly development of new plantations and we must redouble our efforts to improve the intake rate. I am satisfied that the amount which it is proposed to provide will cover the best results we can hope to achieve this year.

Subhead C.2 covering Forest Development and Management, at £2,921,500 shows, as I stated earlier, a decrease of some £200,000 on the provision for 1965-66. The actual out-turn for 1965-66 was £2,884,704.

The provisions on the individual heads of this subhead are (1) £212,500 for State Forest Nurseries, (2) £846,000 for Establishment of Plantations, (3) £445,000 for New Roads and Buildings, (4) £960,000 for General Forest Management, (5) £140,000 for Timber Conversion and (6) £318,000 for Mechanical Equipment for Forest Development and Management.

I have already mentioned that the planting programme is being reduced, as an economy measure, to 20,000 acres, as against the normal target of 25,000 acres and an actual accomplishment in 1965-66 of approximately 23,500 acres. The economies resulting from the reduced programme in 1966-67 affect particularly the provisions for nurseries and establishment of plantations.

Under the Nurseries head there is also an allowance for savings from continuing improvement in nursery techniques. Despite the reduced planting programme the provision for establishment of plantations is up on the 1965-66 provision, due mainly to the transfer to this head of provision for certain drainage work previously charged to general forest management; the amount involved in 1966-67 is £150,000.

The provision for new roads and buildings at £445,000 shows a decrease of £92,000 against the 1965-66 provision but actual expenditure in that year was, in fact, below the level projected for 1966-67. The fall-off in actual expenditure which occurred in 1965-66 and which is expected to continue this year arises partly from a continuing trend towards better organisation of road construction programmes and elimination of costly methods associated with small isolated annual programmes. There is now a greater tendency to question the merits of constructing management roads soon after planting in cases where the basic road network could not be established before planting. These management roads, as distinct from the more intensive network required at thinning stage, serve primarily the objective of better fire-protection but, in cases where the fire-risk is low, it is now considered more economic to defer road-construction until thinning stage.

Under general forest management, the burden of cost continues to grow annually with the extension of the State forest area but the transfer of some drainage charges to the establishment of plantations head which I have already mentioned, coupled with an expected saving arising from improvements in the methods of controlling competing vegetation in young plantations and some anticipated savings in the construction of firelines, have brought about a net reduction under the general forest management head.

The aggregate of the sums provided for labour under the various heads comes to £2,221,000 and allows for the incidence in the current year of 53 pay-days. The average labour force which expenditure of that order is sufficient to cover is approximately 4,400 as compared with an average number employed of 4,668 in 1965-66 and 4,812 in 1964-65. The curtailment in planting programme, accounting for a fall of approximately 100 in the average employment level, is not the most significant factor contributing to the reduction in labour force since 1964-65. The major cause of the decline is the progressive decrease in operational costs in connection with nurseries, roads and general forest management to which I have already referred. I need hardly emphasise that falling cost incidence is conducive to a more economic return from the State's capital investment in forestry.

Subhead C.3 which provides for the Department's two fixed sawmills, shows practically no change on the provision or out turn for 1965-66.

Expenditure on Subhead D, which provides for grants for afforestation purposes, for 1965-66 was £17,334 against a provision of £17,500. The increased provision of £25,000 for 1966-67 is, in part, due to the fact that second instalments of grants now falling due are at the £20 per acre rate but is mainly designed to ensure that the fund available will be adequate to meet applications. Payment of grant was sanctioned in respect of new planting of 1,054 acres in 1965-66.

Despite propaganda and publicity, the availability of a grant of £20 per acre and free technical advice, the annual volume of private planting seems to have settled at about 1,000 acres per annum. During 1965-66 the Department's mobile exhibit attended fourteen shows. Lectures were given at 13 centres and the scheme whereby demonstration plantings sponsored by "Trees for Ireland" were subsidised by the Department was continued for a further year.

The provision of £33,500 under Subhead E deals with Forestry Education and is £1,560 up on the provision for last year. The increase arises from normal incremental progression of staff and increases in food and general costs.

The provision for Agency, Advisory and Special Services in Subhead F at £30,000 shows an increase of £10,000 on the provision for 1965-66. Actual outturn for that year was £18,493. The increased provision is attributable to expenses which will be incurred in 1966-67 in connection with a comprehensive expert examination of the economies of pulpwood utilisation in Irish conditions, including a survey of all potential forms of processing. This survey, which was envisaged in the Second Programme for Economic Expansion, is designed to assist in securing optimum market development against the increasing production of thinnings from the State forests.

The provision of £35,000 under Subhead G, for the John Fitzgerald Kennedy Memorial Park, which exceeds the provision for 1965-66 by £10,000 and actual expenditure in that year by £26,383, is intended to cover the cost of some roads and of preliminary work on buildings and water supply, as well as the purchase of specimens and the normal day-to-day running of the Park site.

During the year site-planning of the Park was completed and the arboretum area was surveyed and gridded. The forest plot area has also been marked out. The design of the main Park buildings has been completed as has a water supply survey. Planting has commenced in the forest plot area and shelter planting to protect less hardy specimens has been undertaken in the arboretum. A phenological garden has been opened in the Park and a meterological station has been completed on the site and is operational.

Subhead H, which covers Appropriations-in-Aid, represents, mainly, the sale of produce from State forests. The provision this year at £762,500 is £150,500 greater than in 1965-66. Actual receipts in that year, however, were more than £710,000.

The market for forest produce continues to be buoyant and could absorb additional supplies of sawlog and pulpwood timber if such supplies were available from the State forests. While fluctuation in supply—particularly in sawlog sizes—is inevitable there can be no doubt of steadily increasing supplies becoming available as the produce of the increasing planting programmes during the years is taken out of the forests. As I have already stated when dealing with Subhead F a survey of utilisation of increasing forest produce commenced recently and preliminary reports are expected during the year. The total area of plantations now held by the Department is 450,000 acres distributed in 190 different forest centres throughout the country.

I want to assure the House that this Estimate provides for all work necessary to the proper care and protection of our existing plantations. The capital investment value of the State forest estate now stands at a figure of over £50 million and the safeguarding of this investment by a full standard of maintenance is of paramount importance. The Estimate as presented meets these requirements in every respect and, on this basis, I can confidently recommend it to the House.

The Estimate presented by the Minister this year displays every evidence of the cold hand of economies. I wish to say how very disappointed I am and how very disappointed the country will be, having regard to the hopes raised by the Government when the recent Land Act was being passed through the House. At the same time, I feel that the report which the Minister has made and in which he referred to the fact that during the year ended 31st March last a total of 68 properties comprising 4,326 acres was bought for cash at a price of £338,000 is heartening because I welcome any move on the part of the Land Commission to purchase property for cash.

The Minister gave us a very carefully-worded record of what the Land Commission have been doing in the past 12 months. It is very easy to present a report to the Dáil on the workings of institutions like the Land Commission but one would imagine that the Minister would have availed of this opportunity, now that the Land Act has been functioning for some time, to give us some idea of the Government's general broad policy in regard to the Department of Lands. It is all right to give us a report on the activities of the Land Commission. We all know the Land Commission are a big body who move very slowly. In my opinion, the Land Commission are bound up in volumes of red tape and many of these volumes of red tape appear to be in tight black knots. I had expected the Minister would take some practical steps to shake off some of the volumes of red tape which seem to tie down the Land Commission.

It is not generally understood throughout the country why the working of the Land Commission is so tedious. I am afraid the Land Commission are completely understaffed, particularly in regard to their outdoor activities. Those engaged in such outdoor activities appear to be greatly overworked. It is time to stop tinkering with the setting up of our people on the land and to keep them on the land. It is certainly time to take stock of the whole situation in this respect.

The Minister must know that at the present time there is a very serious drift from the land. There is clear and ample evidence that smallholders and others are disposing of their properties for one reason or another. Many are emigrating and many are seeking employment in the cities. It is a serious situation when we see the drift from the land continuing. We know that 60,000 holdings in this country are too small. That, in turn, means that there are 60,000 families living or trying to eke out an existence on holdings which are not capable of giving them a decent standard of living. It naturally follows that the owners of these holdings must go where a good standard of living will be forthcoming.

In the past 12 months there has been a vast increase in the numbers leaving the land. I repeat that it is a very serious situation which must gravely concern the Minister for Lands or any Minister whose primary responsibility it is to set up on the land as many families as possible. I had expected that many more people would have been inclined to avail of the provisions of the Land Act, that many elderly, incapacitated persons voluntarily would have sold their land to the Land Commission. The Minister, when this Bill was going through the House, had really high hopes of the provisions in section 6 which were welcomed by all sides and all Parties in this House. Now, we are told that there are just some 57 applications or inquiries relating to that section. The Minister seems to think that that is encouraging. It might be encouraging if we had any ray of hope that we would have as many inquiries, or applications next year or the year after. Is it not a fact that the applications which have now been made under section 6 of the Land Act, 1965, a total of 57, represent all people who wanted to avail of its provisions?

The Minister might at some future date, or when replying later, tell us how many of the 57 are actually applications from elderly or incapacitated persons who desire to sell their lands to the Land Commission under the provisions of the section and how many are mere inquiries. There is a difference between an inquiry about the provisions of section 6 and an actual application under the section. The Minister might be able to give the House a little more information in that regard.

I should like to express my disappointment again at the manner in which the land programme has been cut. Spending appears to be more drastically cut. It is wrong, and must be very wrong, to cut down on the spending of public money used for setting people up on the land. It is most regrettable that the money provided for the purchase of large tracts of land which come on the public market is not available, that the State has not sufficient funds at its disposal to purchase these tracts of land in order to assist an uneconomic holder or a congest in congested areas who may be very anxious to get out of the congested districts.

The cutting down on the land programme and the limitation on public spending this year are not in the national interest. I cannot understand why there should be a very serious cutting down on public spending in relation to land or forestry. I shall deal specifically with forestry later. I think all this is being penny wise and pound foolish. What greater national investment could there be than the investment of public money in the purchase of land for those who are in the congested districts, so that those who are now put to the pin of their collar to exist on small holdings might be given a decent and better living on the land?

One would imagine that the provision of a decent holding for those who are anxious to live on the land should be the primary concern of the Government. It is common knowledge that in rural Ireland today there are very many who would be anxious to remain on the land, marry, settle down and rear families. But we also have very great difficulty in obtaining the land on which to live. The Land Commission is the only machinery whereby the smallholder, the uneconomic holder or the farmer's son who is not afraid to work and who is anxious to work but who is not in a position to buy a holding of his own can obtain land. Such people appear to be in the majority and they have to look to the Land Commission. That is why I say with a very great sense of regret that it is too bad that such a brake has been put on public spending by the Land Commission. This is work which should be undertaken with the utmost speed.

The Minister must be aware of the fact that there are very many smallholders in this country today who depend on conacre land. Those who have to take land by conacre never seem to be able to improve their standard of living on this type of land. Usually they have to pay a high fixed price for it. The fixed price will be the highest which the land realises at a public auction. Very often many of those smallholders have to compete against the bids of their very well-to-do neighbours. In many cases these conacre tenants with large families have to depend on the weather, the markets available for their crops — whether wheat, oats, beet or barley—and on the prices governing these crops. At the end of it all, in many cases they have to manure the land and must run the risk of losing it at the end of the 11 month term. It is regrettable that a little more encouragement is not given to these people who have proved themselves both hardworking and industrious and who have demonstrated their anxiety to engage in the production of crops from the land.

However, it is gratifying to note— this is one of the redeeming features of this Estimate—that we have now reached the stage at which a brake is put on the purchase of land by non-nationals. The Land Act of 1965 makes it necessary for the approval of the Land Commission to be sought before lands can be sold to an alien. I would ask the Minister to bear in mind the lands purchased before the introduction of the 1965 Act.

In the years before that aliens, notably Germans, purchased large tracts of what many of us regard as reasonably good land. I think the time has now come when the Land Commission should consider how these lands held by aliens are being worked and, should the opportunity arise, the Land Commission should consider acquiring these lands, more particularly in those cases in which the owners are not dependent on them for a livelihood. Some of these aliens have other professions abroad. Many are company directors. Some have other occupations outside this State from which they derive their incomes. Some go abroad for long periods. Some regard these lands as something for recreational purposes, as something to enable them to recuperate away from the spheres of activity in which they are normally engaged.

Smallholders living on very limited acreages have to pay big money for conacre. They are compelled to do that in order to rear their families. That is something the Land Commission should keep in mind. I want to pay tribute to the Land Commission for the manner in which they have kept this matter under review during the past 12 months. There is ample evidence that arable land is not now falling into the hands of undesirables. I take it that supervision will continue. The only drawback is that it is akin to closing the stable door when the horse has gone, but I appeal to the Minister and the Department to continue keeping under review all lands purchased by aliens prior to the passing of the 1965 Act.

The Minister referred to loans made available to farmers in the congested areas to purchase viable farms of their choice. A sum of £45,000 is being provided for that purpose in this year's Estimate. I wonder are farmers generally in the congested areas, anxious to purchase farms of their choice, aware that these facilities are available. One would expect, with the number of progressive farmers living in the congested areas, that there would have been a greater demand on the finances available for the purchase of holdings. It may be that suitable holdings did not come on the market, but I would recommend progressive farmers in the congested areas to avail of these provisions. I expect that this sum of £45,000 is the estimate made by the Minister's Department as to what will be required this year for this scheme. We all know that £45,000 will not buy very many holdings. Practically any kind of holding now commands a sum of from £3,000 to £8,000.

He will be selling his own holding to the Land Commission.

That is so. I am glad the Minister made the complimentary references he did to the co-operation he has received from auctioneers. Auctioneers are always anxious to get the best possible price they can for their customers. It is gratifying to note that the Land Commission is a good buyer from that point of view. My personal experience and I think I can speak as the vice-president of the auctioneers association of this country is that there has been the greateest possible spirit of co-operation between the Land Commission and the auctioneers, and that is as it should be. I should like to take this opportunity of expressing to the Minister the thanks and the appreciation of the auctioneers in this matter. The auctioneers and the Land Commission can both work to mutual advantage. The auctioneers have already expressed their thanks and appreciation to the Minister for the payment of fees on all cash purchases by the Land Commission. That has been a step in the right direction and has most certainly been responsible for providing a pool of land for the Land Commission which it would never otherwise have got.

When auctioneers make inquiries as to whether or not a possible purchaser is likely to be approved by the Land Commission, I have heard of the great efficiency and speed which the officers of the Land Commission have shown in their effort to facilitate the auctioneers. Not alone have they been facilitating the auctioneers but they have been facilitating the vendors as well who are very anxious to know whether or not such an interested party would be approved. It is very important that that good service should be maintained between the auctioneers and the Land Commission because, if a vendor puts his property on the market for sale and has a number of inquiries, it is only right that the Land Commission should be as speedy as possible in giving an opinion on whether or not the proposed purchaser is likely to be approved.

It would facilitate matters very much if, where an inquiry had to be disposed of without delay, the senior Land Commission official in each of the divisions were permitted to say "yes" or "no", on the spot. There might be some delay, which would result in some financial loss to the vendor, while awaiting a speedy decision from the Land Commission. These inquiries are usually made before any contract for sale is signed. Naturally, it will be the job of the auctioneer to get for his customer the highest and the best possible price. That is why he is engaged and that is his job. At the same time, he will want to take steps to guard himself against the signing of a contract by a person who, on investigation, will not be approved as a suitable purchaser by the Land Commission. If the chief inspector in each of the divisions could be approached either by the auctioneers or the solicitors and his opinion sought on the possibility of having such and such a purchaser approved, and if he were at liberty to say "yes" or "no" I think it would facilitate matters very much. However, I do say that the general body of auctioneers, at the moment at any rate, seem to have no complaints in so far as their dealings with the Land Commission are concerned and, as I say, co-operation of that kind can be a great help to both the Land Commission and the auctioneers.

I agree very fully with what the Minister says about favouring a voluntary rather than a compulsory transaction. A voluntary deal, a voluntary transaction, is always the most satisfactory. The compulsory acquisition of land may at times be necessary but I really feel that if a voluntary deal can be made, then, in nine times out of ten, it is the most satisfactory transaction. It would be very regrettable if the experienced men at the purchase end of the Land Commission were debarred in any way from taking over or purchasing a good property because of a decision by the Land Commission in their head office on a hard and fast price for any particular property. Where a large tract of land comes on the public market and should, in the opinion of the local people—local smallholders or others—either be acquired or purchased for the relief of congestion, it would be regrettable that, for the sake of £100, £200 or even £500, the Land Commission should lose the purchase of such a property which would be a very great asset to some smallholders in the area who could never hope to purchase land in the public market, more particularly if such a holding were convenient, say, to a group of county council cottages.

I have known county council cottiers in my constituency and elsewhere who have been given land by the Land Commission. I have known county council cottiers who have been given accommodation plots. They have given a very good account of themselves. It would be entirely wrong, and I am glad the Land Commission are not doing it and I hope they have no intention of doing it, to overlook at any time the application of the cottier. The cottier may be employed either at forestry work or road work or he may be an agricultural labourer employed by a local farmer. He may have a large family to provide for. He may have aged parents to provide for. In a rural district, he may be anxious to keep a cow or two. He may be anxious to grow an acre or two of beet but, perhaps because of eelworm or something like that, the Sugar Company have seen fit to say that beet should not be produced in cottage plots. It is only right that accommodation land should be provided convenient to estates that have been divided, if there are any county council cottages in the vicinity. Those cottiers gave a good account of themselves in the Emergency and are giving a good account of themselves now by growing a few acres of beet or having the grass of a cow which they could not get otherwise. I strongly recommend the Land Commission to keep in mind tenants of council cottages where land is being divided so that at least accommodation land is made available to them.

The Minister referred to the gratuities totalling over £14,000 that were paid to ex-employees on estates in the past year. We see that 64 employees lost their jobs and received an average of £225 each as gratuity and while we have reached a stage when we should be thankful for small mercies, this is not a very generous gratuity. It may be impossible for ex-employees of estates to get work in their own district. They may be elderly and an average payment of £225 for the loss of one's job is very small and I would ask the Minister and the Land Commission to try to be more generous in future when dealing with the claims of ex-employees.

I note with satisfaction that displaced employees who are deemed competent to work land are usually considered for allotments. That is right and I hope that preference will be given as far as possible to those anxious to work land. They should at least be offered the land. No doubt many of them give a good account of themselves.

On Subhead I reference is made to the sum of £675,000 for improvement works of land settlement. These include the erection of dwelling houses and out-offices; provision of access roads; fencing and drainage; provision of water supply for domestic and stock requirements; turbary developments; repair and maintenance of embankments. That is very useful work and should certainly be undertaken but I am sorry to have to direct the Minister's attention to the fact that on many estates in the year which is now ending the Land Commission funds appear to be exhausted so far as provision of fencing and water supplies and the maintenance of embankments are concerned. I would impress on the Minister the necessity to provide generously annually for these purposes. Nothing is so disheartening as to receive an allotment, have it sown, using the best form of husbandry and then find the Land Commission slow in carrying out fencing, providing gates and providing a water supply convenient to the residence. I have known many cases, not only in my own constituency but elsewhere—I have referred them to the Land Commission—where I really thought the delay was unreasonable. The main factor in the delay was the cost involved. The Land Commission should not put up fences that will not last. That may be a penny-wise, pound-foolish policy. It is better to have it done well so that it will last. The same applies to water supplies for domestic and stock requirements. We have noted many cases where allottees were given holdings and there seemed to be unreasonable delay in sinking wells and providing water. One of the reasons is that the Land Commission appear to exercise too much economy and this can be overdone if they want to provide a good service.

I welcome very much the Land Commission undertaking the erection of a new type of out-office which they are erecting for migrants and displaced employees on an experimental basis. This is a very good idea. It consists of a three-bay hayshed with a lean-to for 12 cows with feed-store and dairy. This new type of out-office is a credit to the Land Commission and, where provided, it has met with the full approval of the allottees. I can also assure the Minister it has won the admiration of those in neighbouring districts. That is a development to be encouraged. I hope the Minister's experiment will be successful and that later on it will become the pattern for the Land Commission to go on.

The lay-out and planning of Land Commission houses have certainly elicited praise from many. I think it is correct to say that the first of these modern Land Commission houses were erected in my constituency on the main Dublin-Cork road on the Franks Estate at Castletown, Mountrath. The lay-out is most satisfactory and they are splendid from an architectural point of view. We have now got away from the old, cheap, cottage type of house and instead we have something much more attractive bringing the farmhouse more into line with modern architectural ideas. Such houses may cost more but in the long run they are well worth the money. An attractively designed house with attractive out-offices placed well in from the road and with attractive drives which can be decorated with hedges or suitable shrubs cannot but win general approval. It would be no harm if some local authorities and others were to take as an example the most recent residences that have been erected by the Land Commission. I do not know if the Minister has ever stopped on the main road near Castletown to view these houses.

I have seen them.

I am sure the Minister was impressed. They are models of what a Land Commission residence should be. I am very proud of these houses in my constituency and regard them as a credit to the Land Commission and to those who reside in them, who are keeping them in the best possible taste. I am glad that the Minister has called to see them on his way down south or that they have been pointed out to him because in no other part of Ireland are there Land Commission residences as attractive, neat and compact as those of modern architecture in the Castletown area.

I hope that wherever Land Commission houses are being erected they will be of the same standard of taste, attractiveness and beauty. The housing section of the Land Commission deserves to be congratulated on the architecture of these houses. Too often, opportunity is availed of to offer harsh criticism and a word of praise should be given where it is well merited. The planning section is up to date and the high standard and the lay-out of the houses designed by it are worthy of appreciation.

Reference has been made to the £500 advances made to farmers to supplement grants they obtain from the Department of Local Government for the erection of new houses and the reconstruction of existing houses. I trust the Minister will reconsider this matter. The £500 loan has been proclaimed to be a great asset and a great help to a farmer building his own house. Would it not be better if, instead of advancing a loan of £500, the Land Commission would consider undertaking, perhaps not this year but in the future when the Minister considers that the financial circumstances permit, the erection of houses for small farmers and having the cost repaid in the Land Commission annuity on the same lines as were adopted under Section B of the Land Project? There are smallholders living in dreadful hovels, condemned shacks, in housing conditions which are the most appalling in Europe. Many of us, as Deputies, have gone from time to time to farmers' houses and could get only as far as the door in many cases.

There are people living in the most shocking housing conditions, through no fault of their own. They may have large families. Their holding may not be sufficient to allow them to erect a house on it. They may not qualify for county council houses because of the amount of land they possess.

The housing section should make a survey of the position. I have written to the housing section on many occasions complimenting them on the amount of work they are doing. The housing section are handcuffed and blindfolded and cannot work in a satisfactory manner, for lack of finance and capital. The personnel of the housing section of the Land Commission are fully competent to provide every landowner with a good house. All they need is the lead from the Minister to implement this as part of Land Commission policy. It does not require legislation or amendment of the law. The housing section of the Land Commission is already established. They have funds to advance in the form of £500 loans to smallholders to build houses and to supplement grants.

It may cost £2,500 to build a house. In many cases, the out-offices attached to houses which may have been standing for 200 years are made of stone and mud and should be replaced. We are living in 1966 and the day of the dilapidated mud-wall out-office is gone. Out-offices should have running water and be airy and dry and healthy for livestock. All farmers should have modern dairies provided for them. The out-offices should be placed in as convenient a position as possible while being a proper distance from the residence. In many cases where a small-holder may build a new house convenient to the road, he may have to traipse from the new house to the out-office at the back of the old condemned shack.

The Land Commission would be very well advised to examine the whole question of housing for farmers in rural Ireland. The proposed scheme cannot be availed of by the majority of smallholders because it may involve seeking a loan from the Agricultural Credit Corporation or from a bank to whom they may be committed already. There are thousands of smallholders who would gladly avail of modern living conditions if they had the wherewithal to provide them. I, personally, and this Party, notably Deputy Dillon, at the last general election, before the last general election and, since then, Deputy Cosgrave, have been pressing the Minister to undertake responsibility for the provision of modern housing for all our people in rural Ireland, repayment to be by way of the half-yearly instalment.

Why should we expect the present generation to pay down or to repay in the course of a few years a sum of £2,500 plus interest in respect of the provision of a farmhouse? If out-offices are to be included, the amount will be much more than £2,500. Is it not right, that if a commitment is entered into by the father of a family, his sons and daughters should share in that commitment and that it should not be the responsibility of the landowner to have to pay for it in one, or two or even five years. It is something that should be spread over a generation.

I recommend the Land Commission to review and recast their entire policy in regard to houses and in regard to the provision of up-to-date offices and suitable haybarns. There should be a haybarn at the back of every holding. It is regrettable to see the number of holdings which still have what are commonly called hayricks or hay-stacks behind them. Very often these are blown away during bad winters or, due to constant rainfall, such as we are experiencing every year now, the hay becomes unfit for use because it has been allowed to remain out in the weather. The expenditure of £116,000 for loans is very welcome and is money well spent but I would much prefer that instead of this expenditure, the Land Commission would tackle the whole problem. If there is, as I have no doubt there will be, a change of Government, I want to assure the Minister that this is a problem that will be tackled by his successor—the provision of houses and out-offices for all those in rural Ireland who need them. The scheme will be tackled as defined in the land rehabilitation scheme and the amount will be paid back in the rent. This should be the case for all smallholders, small farmers and others who have not the necessary security to obtain loans. As soon as Fine Gael resume office as a Government, this is one of the schemes we will ask the Land Commission to administer. I have no hesitation in saying that the Land Commission personnel dealing with housing loans are highly competent and capable people. I venture to say that at the end of a ten-year period not a single condemned hovel will remain.

The Minister made complimentary reference to the Regional Game Councils. This is work that should be encouraged. Last year £40,000 was paid out by way of grants and it certainly reflects great credit on the progress that continues to be made by the 24 game councils which have been established. These councils deserve congratulations for their marvellous work. They should be encouraged in every possible way. I would ask the Minister and his Department always to pay special attention, as far as possible, to the reasonable requests made by these councils. I feel now as I have felt in previous years, that special financial facilities should be made available for the owners of private hatcheries. The equipment that is required, such as the electrical equipment, including incubators and heating apparatus, all cost money. We have a number of very fine game hatcheries and I have previously been in touch on more than one occasion with the Minister about several of them. These enterprising people, because of their interest in game, have gone to great expense equipping these modern hatcheries and the Department should have some scheme whereby grants could be given to them to assist them. I should certainly like to congratulate the quarantine station operated by the game council in County Dublin. It has been an outstanding success and it is encouraging to note that 5,000 game birds, pheasants, etc., were successfully reared there and distributed to many of the game councils and others concerned in the breeding of game. This must certainly be very near a record and I am glad that the Minister has commented favourably on it. We wish the hatchery every success and good luck.

I have often wondered if the Department of Lands have paid sufficient attention in the past to the preservation of our game, which, in my opinion, is a national asset. I hope the Minister will bear in mind that the protection and preservation of our game is work of national importance, particularly in view of the number of tourists and others who come here to shoot game. It is something which may not pay off in a year or two but it certainly will bring benefits in time. Sportsmen and visitors alike to this country have paid many tributes to our game potential. This is something which should be and can be developed to a far greater extent but it cannot be developed unless you are prepared to spend money on it. That is why I hope that in future steps will be taken to review the whole structure of our game councils, the preservation and protection of game, the provision of suitable grants for private hatcheries and the publicising to a greater extent of shooting facilities in this country.

We have the best shooting facilities in Europe. I welcome the appointment by the Minister of a joint committee, comprising senior officers of the Department and representatives of Bord Fáilte, for the promotion of shooting for visiting sportsmen. I am sure Deputies would like to have some information about this committee, which I have no doubt will do valuable and useful work. It might be no harm to ask the Minister what the terms of reference of the committee are, whether he proposes to ask them to submit recommendations and, if so, will steps be taken to implement them and will the Minister have funds at his disposal to put them into effect?

The Game Branch of the Department has also recruited some advisory personnel. That is very necessary. It is important that we should have available to us the best advisory personnel, if possible the best in the world. These people will have very specialised training and I hope they are being well paid. This is something of a national investment and we should have the best possible scientific advice. I have no doubt that the Department will endeavour to achieve that. If there is one thing in this country we can boast about, it is our fishing and shooting; but we do not seem to brag enough about it. We do not seem to give it sufficient publicity. We are overwhelmed by continental competition and our shooting and fishing, apart from very limited publicity, is hardly ever mentioned abroad. The shooting and fishing which this country has to offer our visiting sportsmen are as good as they will get in any part of the world.

I am disappointed at the acquisition side of the Department's working during the past year. There were 60,000 acres of land inspected but there was an intake of only 33,000 acres. I suppose the credit squeeze was responsible for that. It is a pity there should be any cutting down on the amount of land for acquisition.

While I am on that point I want to direct the Minister's attention to his power to declare certain areas as congested districts. In a congested area where land is divided the allottee will only have to pay half the amount of rent the allottee has to pay for land in a non-congested district. There are many areas which are not defined as congested districts, part of County Wicklow, many parts of County Carlow, a very large area of County Laois, parts of North Tipperary, of County Kilkenny, and of County Cavan and a large part of County Monaghan, which should most certainly be defined as congested districts. I should be glad if, during the coming year, the Minister would examine the matter of the declaration of congested districts.

The present outline of congested districts is not as it should be. These congested districts were established very many years ago. There are pockets in some of the areas I have mentioned, where congestion is as bad as if not worse than in the areas already defined as congested districts, and which have as good a right to be defined as a congested district as parts of the west of Ireland which have already been declared congested districts and where congestion might not be as acute as in these other areas which are not defined as congested. I hope the Land Commission would not be inclined to recommend, in the interests of economy, that an area be not defined as a congested district. They might feel that the amount of rent they would be receiving by way of instalments from the allottees would be only half of what they would be getting if it was not a congested district. I hope this matter will be approached on a long-term, national basis, on the basis that we want to help the people on the land and not place unnecessary or additional burdens by way of repayments on them. The time has come when there should be a complete review of the congested districts.

I welcome the procedure adopted by the Minister in taking the Forestry Estimate and the Lands Estimate together. It is right that the one debate should cover the two. I am saddened and disillusioned by the Estimate for Forestry which the Minister has introduced. It indicates nothing but gloom and unemployment and appears to place a dead hand over the development of forestry. If there is one good medium of rural employment in Ireland it is forestry. There are about 4,800 men employed in forestry work at the moment. I have always felt that employment in forestry should reach a target of about 10,000 people. Now that there is a cutting down in the Estimate many of those who are at present engaged in forestry work will be unemployed during the coming year. In my constituency, where there are some of the finest forests in the country, there has been a reduction in the number of workers: there has been a reduction in the number employed at the Emo State forest, at the Kinnitty State forest, at the Clonaslee State forest, the Stradbally forest and the Mountrath forest. When there is a cutting down of employment in these State forests I presume that in the other State forests in Cork, Wicklow and elsewhere there will be some pruning.

Land is being offered continuously for forestry. There is plenty of work available in our State forests but now by cutting down on forestry the Government are telling us that they have failed miserably in regard to afforestation. This is not an Estimate of hope or an Estimate in which any State Department can have confidence. It is an estimate which undoes the valuable work which has been carried out in the Forestry Division up to now. I had great hopes of an expansion of afforestation this year, that more money would be made available to purchase the lands which have been offered. This very day a constituent of mine from the Banagher area approached me to know if the Forestry Division would take over 100 acres of land for afforestation which he wanted to give them immediately. I have written today to the Forestry Division in this connection. I know of many cases in the midlands and elsewhere where people are anxious to dispose of their lands to the Forestry Division.

What has happened to the great scheme which the Forestry Division had developed in conjunction with Bord na Móna for the planting of cutaway bog? There is not a mention of that here. What has happened to the ideas the Minister had some time ago for vastly increasing the number of persons employed in afforestation? Look at the vast amount of work afforestation can give: the preparation of the land, drainage, thinning, planting and the other seasonal work that is there. I can never understand why there could not be some co-operation between Bord na Móna and the Forestry Division so that there could be a dovetailing of their work at various times of the year. There are parts of the year when Bord na Móna have short time and parts of the year when Forestry have short time. With a dovetailing of the work, through close co-operation between the Forestry Division and Bord na Móna, there could be continuous employment.

I want to object strongly to this cutting down in regard to forestry. This is something on which Deputies from rural Ireland should express an opinion in the House. This unnecessary cutting down will be responsible for throwing out of employment hundreds of forestry workers who have no other employment in their area and have no other means of obtaining a livelihood. These men may be the fathers of large families and may now be forced to emigrate. This forestry work has always been looked upon as a constant and permanent source of employment. Now because some form of book-keeping has to be adopted, in order that there might be economies exercised, in order that two and two may make four, in order that by juggling with figures things will look better on paper, hundreds of forestry workers must be thrown out of employment. This is an Estimate to which I most certainly cannot subscribe and one which will undo the valuable work which has been achieved.

The Minister says in his introductory speech:

This decrease reflects a drop of £20,500 in the provision for Forestry Development and Management. This arises mainly from the decision of the Government to cut back planting in 1966-67 to 20,000 acres....

Where is the Second Programme for Economic Expansion? Has that gone down the drain? What about the additional workers who were to be employed on forestry? Why did the Minister speak with two different tongues, one increasing the numbers to be employed in forestry and the other inviting people to offer their lands for forestry? For the first time we see today that this is a decision taken by the Government to cut back planting to 20,000 acres. It is a wrong decision. It is a decision which will not be accepted by workers engaged in forestry. Deputies who represent constituencies where there are State forests which will be affected by this reduction will make it know clearly and plainly that this cutting down by the Government in afforestation is not in the interests of employment.

Is there anything which beautifies the country more than our forests? Are they not some of the most attractive and beautiful forests to be found in any country? Why interrupt the work? Many of these men are specialists in their own spheres of forestry work. Many of them are specialists at thinning, pruning, drainage work and the making of forestry roads. They have spent all their lives at it in these areas. Now that suitable alternative employment cannot be secured, I venture to say that whenever the Government reach sanity again and desire to provide money for afforestation, these will be no employavailable; there will be no employment to keep them there and the Government will be faced with emigration. It is a very bad step and, most certainly, one to which I cannot subscribe.

This country could not possibly be compared with Canada. Much importance and great emphasis are laid on afforestation in Canada; one of the finest sights I ever saw was the wood pulp industries situated along the Ottawa river, more of them along the St. Lawrence, the extent of these industries and their continued expansion. You see vast acres of woodland being cleared away and the heavy timber being dumped down into the swift currents of the Ottawa and St. Lawrence rivers. Immediately the lands are rotavated, prepared and men come along to replant. No sooner is timber cut away than preparations are being made for replanting.

If only on a small scale in Ireland, why not keep in line and give to our afforestation schemes the proper importance, the importance they should be given? Builders have stated—and correctly so—that Irish timber used for constructional purposes is far superior in every way to imported timber. Is it not a nice thing that those engaged in the building industry have paid such a fine tribute to our native grown timber? Whilst we know afforestation is something which does not pay immediately, it is a sound national investment. The money we invest in forestry today may not pay us for 20 or 30 years but is it not a sound national investment? When the first Government took office in this country and embarked upon their schemes of afforestation, the moneys they put into them at that time only reaped the real benefits when our sales of commercial timber went up and when those who were engaged in the building industry are on record as having stated that our Irish-grown timber, for constructional purposes, was far superior in every way to imported timber. That, in itself, is a credit to Irish afforestation.

Now we are to have a complete standstill. It is wrong. I think the Government are unwise and it is something which most Deputies who have a knowledge of afforestation cannot in any way support.

We have the Minister making another admission of failure during the past year. He says:

The productive area acquired was only slightly over 18,000 acres and was, I regret to say, the lowest annual intake of productive lands since 1956-57.

The lowest annual intake for some years was last year. I venture to say that, as a result of the passing of this Estimate, when the Minister comes along this time 12 months, the intake figure he will be reading will be something in the region of 12,000 acres. A cutting down of that kind is disastrous.

We have a third clear admission of failure from the Minister. To quote his own words, he says:

I have already mentioned that the planting programme is being reduced, as an economy measure, to 20,000 acres, as against the normal target of 25,000 acres.

Here we have again the cold, dead hand of economy stopping the development of afforestation, stopping our expansion in afforestation and the provision of additional rural employment.

One thing can be said about the Minister today in relation to forestry: he was honest about it. There was no pretence or guessing about it. He was very candid when he referred to the fact that it was Government policy to cut it down and it was being done as an economy measure. This is one economy measure which will have very detrimental results. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary could take a brief note for the Minister so that, when replying, he will be able to tell us what are the employment prospects in forestry at the end of the financial year for which he is now providing? Has he any hope of re-employing those who have lost their employment in forestry during the past three months? What steps has he taken because there is no mention in this year's Estimate of providing the foresters with the facilities they sought.

I raised this matter 12 months ago on the Forestry Estimate. I raised it because I felt it was something which should be raised in Parliament. I thought, having given the Minister for Lands a year's notice, some reference would have been made to the manner in which foresters are treated. The foresters are a very special type of trained personnel. They have very great responsibility. They have the responsibility of the management of staff and the full working of the State forests. It takes a long time for a man to qualify as a forester. He must have practical knowledge. He must go through a training college and qualify. A man does not become a forester overnight, and he certainly does not become a forester unknown to his parents' bank account.

In my constituency, in Kinnitty, we have a training college. It is one of two, I think, in the country. I say that in Kinnitty we have perhaps the best forestry training college in Europe. The Minister and the Forestry Division can take credit for that. They are entitled to it. In Offaly, we have the best forestry training college in Europe but I am told there were vacancies in that college last year, and that young people are not now taking up forestry as a career. May I ask the Minister, why? When a person is deciding what profession in life to adopt, be it medicine, or the law as a solicitor or a barrister, or any other profession, he takes a long-term view of what the prospects for the future are. There must be many people in this country who take a very dim view of the profession of forester. Some years ago I would have advised any young man wanting a good career, with a real future, with security at home, in a profession of which he could be proud, earn a good living and be independent in his own country, to go to a forestry training college. I thought there was a great future in forestry. Now, as a result of this Estimate, as a result of last year's Estimate, and of what I am afraid will be next year's Estimate, I think there is a very poor future in the profession of forester.

What is the position of the foresters in charge of State forests under the Department of Lands? According to housing statistics taken in 1964—and this is 1966 — we had 163 married foresters and of those, 80 were living in official forestry houses. Forty-seven of those houses were in good condition and 33 were unfit for human habitation. These men were responsible for State forests, and 33 of them were living in damp, cold, draughty houses with decayed floors, defective woodwork, woodwork completely rotted by woodworm, leaking roofs, and roofs which let out most of the heat.

A number of sites were available for building houses for these foresters. In fact, 29 sites were available but it took up to 12 months to provide 18 sites, from one year to five years to provide nine sites, and over five years to provide two sites. Thirty of these foresters were paying more than 35/- a week rent for these hovels. Fifty-six were living in rented houses of a lower standard and the rents being paid for these houses were: £1 a week by one forester, 21/- to 30/- a week by 25 foresters, and 31/- to 40/- a week by 26 foresters. Five were paying between 41/- and 50/- per week. There were 11 houses without piped water, and three houses without electricity. Perhaps there are two now because I think one in County Wicklow got electricity. The number living in their own house or their wife's house was 15. Here we have this annual Estimate with not one single word about building houses or improving housing conditions for these foresters.

I put it to the Minister: what will happen to afforestation in the future if these foresters go out of the country? There is a big opening on the Continent for foresters. There is a very profitable future for foresters in Canada and in parts of the United States. Yet, here we have those men living in the most horrifying and shocking conditions and they are in charge of our State forests. That is an extraordinary situation, and it is something to which I certainly cannot subscribe. I want to condemn the Minister loudly, definitely, and entirely, for not providing for this situation. I accuse him of failing in his responsibility to his own employees. He was wrong in not pressing the Department of Finance for money to improve the conditions in which those foresters are obliged to live.

I was also disappointed that this Estimate contains no provision for grants for private planting. Surely the Minister is aware of the facilities available on the Continent and elsewhere for private planting? I should like to know the real objection of the Minister and the Department to the encouragement of private planting. Should private planting not be encouraged, here? Should suitable private planting grants not be made available? If we want to encourage private planting, we should hold out some encouragement to those people whose lands are suitable for afforestation.

I was reading quite recently about the facilities available in some parts of the Continent for private planting. In France, new plantations are exempt from all local rates for a period of 30 years. In Denmark, special grants and facilities are available on all private planting in that country. British Columbia offers the same facilities. Norway also has those facilities. In this country no effort whatever is being made to encourage private planting. A few moments ago I referred to Ontario which I visited some time ago. Deputy Kitt must know this as well as I do. Special facilities are given by the State forestry service there. That is a great help.

We are giving £20 an acre.

Could we not do something in the same way to assist private planting?

We are giving £20 an acre.

In Denmark, the State gives free guidance with regard to plantations. In Great Britain, the Forestry Commission have also special arrangements and each individual case is dealt with on its merits where private afforestation is undertaken. We should make a very serious effort to encourage private planting. We cannot do it unless we are prepared to spend and to spend generously. There is nothing in this Estimate to encourage private planting.

We are giving £20 an acre.

I would like, if I may, to ask the Minister what has happened to the proposal for a scheme of planting the entire Shannon Valley? I do not know what has happened to that proposal but I remember—I think it was at the time when Mr. Blowick was Minister for Lands—that the question of planting the Shannon Valley and the banks of the Shannon was under consideration. I presume nothing has happened with regard to it, that it is, like most of the other Government plans, on the shelves, covered in dust and cobwebs. If it would not be too much, between now and this time 12 months, perhaps the Minister would wipe away the cobwebs, shake off the dust and tell us what he proposes to do about the proposals for the initiation of the Shannon Valley planting scheme.

We are doing 1,000 acres a year and that is not so bad.

I can see little hope of a general all-round improvement, particularly in regard to the forestry workers, if there is to be a drastic cut-down.

Perhaps the Minister will make a statement on the question of the five-day week all the year round and the 45-hour working week. I would like an explanation as to why some steps were not taken to provide better facilities for workers convenient to State forests, particularly in regard to eating and washing. The facilities at present available for workers, convenient to all our State forests, for eating and washing are far from what we would expect. The Forestry Division should arrange that convenient to State forests the necessary facilities are immediately available, that proper accommodation is provided and that forestry workers can at least wash themselves and that proper eating facilities are available for them. I would also like to hear from the Minister about the pension scheme that was spoken of and also the sick pay scheme. We seem to be lagging very far behind in facilities for our workers, particularly in regard to foresters.

Another matter to which I would like to direct the attention of the Minister is his failure to introduce some support by his Department for private sawmills which are giving good employment. The Forestry Division have been considering for a long time past the possibilities of the wood pulp industry but they do not seem to have made any great headway with regard to it. I would like the Minister to tell us whether the by-products of our forests are being utilised in any way and to outline what plans the Department have in mind. Surely with the forests we have we should be able to make up our minds with regard to the wood pulp industry. Our private sawmills deserve some recognition from the Forestry Division. There are private sawmills giving very good employment. This is a branch of the Irish economy that has been more or less neglected and the time has come for the Minister to review the position.

The Forestry Estimate as it stands cannot be described as being favourable. My Party are disappointed with it because it does not hold a ray of hope for the general development of afforestation. All Deputies who had held out hope for future growth and expansion of afforestation are disappointed. Despite this, I hope the high volume of unemployment which I can foresee will not take place in the coming year but I am afraid of the situation, after listening to the Minister. I hope that in the near future some Minister for Lands will tackle this problem in a brave, courageous way so that our afforestation programme will produce one of our finest industries, resulting in good employment for men who work in rural Ireland.

The Estimate clearly shows that the Minister has been struck rather violently by the economic blizzard. We have on the joint Estimate for Lands and Forestry a statement indicating that as far as Lands are concerned there is a reduction of £259,000 and a reduction of £204,200 in respect of Forestry, making a combined reduction of £463,200. That is not very welcome news for the Members of the House, nor will it be good news for the people of the country tomorrow. I thought for a time that Deputy Flanagan was off balance because, if I may say so, the two speeches made by him on this Estimate were in marked contrast. The first speech on the Department of Lands displayed great brotherly feeling towards the Minister and the Land Commission. Indeed, I do not know how the affection arose because I have not read anything in the Minister's statement that should warrant this display of affection by the Deputy.

He is lághach.

It is not many months since we spent weeks in the House debating a Land Bill which was to cure all our land ills, a measure under which all people in congested districts would get economic holdings and under which, possibly, landless men would be set up in some districts. It was a Bill under which the small economic holder might be able to get an additional piece of land adjacent to his holding. What do we find? In the very first Estimate for that Department, there is a marked reduction in the allocation of public funds to put the Act into operation and we find this reduction represents a sizeable percentage of the total amount in the Estimate. As well as that, we have a statement early in the Minister's speech indicating that an additional sum of £75,000 will be made available this year towards salary increases. The Minister went on:

In particular I am arranging for a telling increase in the inspectorate staff, as I am anxious to get on with the rapid disposal of acquired land and equally to move promptly on the inspection of properties brought to notice.

It is peculiar that at a time when the Minister has reduced the Estimate by more than a quarter of a million pounds, he should tell us that he is about to increase the staff.

I have not reduced the Land Bonds. I have increased them.

I shall come to the question of the Land Bonds and I may be as long as Deputy Flanagan was.

Is the Deputy against giving employment?

I am against a reduction of £259,000 in the Estimate. That will not give much employment. What this Estimate proposes is to employ a few senior executives and to disemploy a number of the 630 workers for whom provision should have been made in Subhead A. I forecast a drastic reduction in employment as a result of the cut of £300,000 in that subhead. Does that answer Deputy Kitt?

That is baloney.

It is factual. I shall read the subhead from one end to the other. Someone mentioned Land Bonds.

As the Minister has reminded me of Land Bonds, I shall make some statements on them. I dislike them because I think they are an unfair and unjust way of buying land and that there should be no such thing, as far as the buying of land is concerned, as Land Bonds. Land should be bought at public sales. The Land Bond system is unfair. The owners of land do not understand anything about Land Bonds. They are not conversant with the fact that the value of Land Bonds can fluctuate, as they did during the past year. Six per cent Land Bonds selling at par are now on sale at 88½, a reduction of 11.5. It is true to say that a number of people have been caught badly as a result of that drastic reduction, brought about by the credit squeeze. The Minister and the House have an obligation to those people to rectify that wrong and I shall endeavour during the debate to support a move to provide compensation for these people.

The best way to illustrate the position in regard to Land Bonds is by presenting a particular case. I shall cite the case of a person in my constituency, Mrs. McCarthy of Lahadana, near Bantry. All public representatives in the area know the case because if any person in Ireland has a justifiable, genuine grievance it is Mrs. McCarthy. Before giving details of the case, I should like to tell the Minister that I have a very high regard for his integrity and his compassion and I should like to express the hope that compensation will be paid to people like Mrs. McCarthy.

She is a widow whose husband died in 1954, leaving her with a family of one son and three daughters, all in their early teens at the time. They worked the farm, adjacent to the town of Bantry. It is one of the most valuable farms in that part of the country. Located contiguous to Bantry town, it had many advantages over and above the type of farms which are to be found in that district. I have said Mrs. McCarthy worked this farm until 1960, but due to difficulties which she was unable to overcome in the early sixties, she had to let the farm. She could no longer continue tillage, keeping cows, and so on, and she had to let the farm. When the Land Commission heard of this position, they approached Mrs. McCarthy in 1962. The agent informed her that they heard she was letting the farm and that the Land Commission intended to take it from her.

As a person who required capital, and a person who possibly found some difficulty in continuing to work the farm on her own, and feeling that there was no way of opposing the Land Commission, Mrs. McCarthy did agree to a sale by consent, even though at that time her son was 18 years of age and she had in mind to let the farm until he reached his majority in a few years' time, took over the farm and worked it. That was not to be. The Land Commission continued to approach Mrs. McCarthy and eventually, through their agents, agreed to buy 100 acres of that farm and to pay for it in Land Bonds to the value of £11,000. That was the bargain. That amount of £11,000 was put in Land Bonds, as I say, but Mrs. McCarthy, and others like her, are not conversant with Land Bonds and their fluctuations in price.

The reply the Minister gave me on 2nd February, 1966, indicates that the Land Commission took over possession of that farm on 1st February 1965 and from that date to 17th May 1966, Mrs. McCarthy has not got one penny of money for her farm, good, bad or indifferent.

Whose fault is that?

Into the bargain——

The Deputy should ask her solicitors about that.

I shall go over it with the Minister.

I shall reply, as the Deputy knows.

I am not accusing the Minister of anything.

Perhaps I have been a little impatient.

My intention in raising this matter in the House is, if there are other people similarly affected in any part of the country, to speak on their behalf also. This is a national Parliament and the reason I am giving details of this case is to illustrate the position, and that very clearly.

Here is the document to the solicitors. This farm was vested in the Land Commission in early February. On 11th March, 1964, the Land Commission had this to say in a letter to Mrs. McCarthy's solicitors:

I am desired by the Land Commission to refer to your letter of 20th February, 1964, addressed to Mr. O'Boyle, Cork Office, regarding the above matter, and to state that the position regarding the grazing letting has been noted.

As agreement has been reached on price, the Land Commission propose to continue the proceedings on a voluntary basis and a formal Proposal to Purchase is being prepared and will be issued shortly to you for acceptance by your client.

When the proposal to Purchase has been accepted, the title of the lands will be examined by the Examiner's Branch of this Office and possession could be taken by the Land Commission when a prima facie certificate of title has been issued by the Examiner. In view of the position about the grazing letting, the Land Commission agree to postpone possession until February, 1965. Meantime it will be possible to make progress on the examination of title. The Land Bonds representing the Purchase Money would be put to credit when possession is taken.

The last sentence in that letter is the vital one. It was indicated clearly by the Land Commission to Mrs. McCarthy that as soon as possession was taken, the Land Bonds would be paid to her credit. At that time the price was £99 10s and Mrs. McCarthy had in mind to cash these bonds immediately as she had been told there would be no difficulty in cashing them. At that time they were at par 100. As a result the bonds have now decreased in value, so far as this woman is concerned, by the amount of £1,265, plus accrued interest if she had sold the land by private sale. I have no doubt, Sir, and I can assure the Minister and the House, that had that farm been sold by private sale at the time, the minimum price for that 100 acres would be at least £15,000, or £4,000 more than the Land Commission agreed to pay for it.

Surely there is an obligation, if not a legal obligation arising out of some of the sections or subsections of our Act, a moral obligation, to compensate that widow woman in Bantry for the way she has been treated by the Land Commission. There is no doubt in my mind, and I am sure there will be no doubt in the mind of any Member in this House, that in such a case we are in duty bound, and morally bound, to pay this woman compensation for unjustifiably holding her money for the past 15 or 16 months.

The Minister may be interested to know what the cause of the delay was. Four reasons were given. Let us examine the first reason which was: "You must tell us whether any rates were due to Cork County Council." Was there not someone in the Department of Lands, or in the Land Commission, who could take the telephone and inquire from the rate collector in Cork, Mr. Callinan, whether money was owed by way of rates? Why could that not be done? Is that not the procedure? The position was made quite clear to the Land Commission that no rates were due. Now, however, we are told that the Land Commission could not hand over possession of the bonds until it was made clear to them that no rates were due. If there was anything wrong with the title, why did the Land Commission vest these lands in themselves? It was completely unfair and unjust to do so if there was anything wrong with the title.

Why did they state in the letter I have just read "as soon as this land is vested, the bonds will be in your possession"? Is that an erroneous statement; is it a statement that would give a false impression to anyone who read it? Would any person in this House read this statement to Mrs. McCarthy in March, 1964, and not come away with the impression that as soon as the vesting order was signed, she would be in possession of the bonds?

I should like before I go into the three other reasons for withholding money from Mrs. McCarthy to ask the Minister this question: does he agree that anybody reading this letter——

In the first place, I disagree that money was withheld from Mrs. McCarthy. I say it was due to her advisers that——

Mrs. McCarthy's adviser is probably one of the most competent advisers in the country. The Minister's indictment of him is absolutely misplaced and I am surprised at his indicting an honourable member of his own profession, without justification, under the privilege of this House.

Further consideration of Vote adjourned.

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