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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 22 Jun 1966

Vol. 223 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Local Government (Reduction of Valuation) Bill, 1966: Second and Subsequent Stages.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time.

The Bill proposes to continue for three further years, as from 1st April last, the period in which buildings may be erected, reconstructed or improved in order to qualify for the rates remission under the Local Government (Temporary Reduction of Valuation) Act, 1954.

The 1954 Act provided for the granting of a two-thirds remission of rates for seven years on the valuation of new buildings and on the increased valuation of existing buildings which were reconstructed or improved, where the work of erection, reconstruction or improvement was completed not later than 26th July, 1956. The period for completion was extended up to the 31st March, 1966, by amending Acts passed in 1956, 1960 and 1963. The remission of rates applies to all buildings such as factories, offices, shops, hotels, houses and so on which do not qualify for a remission under any other Act. It is considered that the remission should now be continued for a further three year period, and this is proposed by section 1 of the Bill.

The 1954 Act, as extended, constitutes a form of rating concession which has existed in local government legislation for almost half a century. The effects of this and of the great number and variety of other similar concessions on the effectiveness of our valuation and rating system as an equitable means of distributing local taxation are being reviewed with a view to evolving general principles to govern such remissions for the future. Pending the formulation of these principles I feel that the present concessions under the 1954 Act should be continued on a further temporary basis.

Under section 14 of the Valuation (Ireland) Act, 1852, an exemption from rates for seven years was given for newly erected or reconstructed farm outhouses and outoffice buildings. This exemption was extended from seven to 20 years by the Local Government (Temporary Reduction of Valuation) Act, 1960, in the case of farm buildings built, enlarged or improved between 1st April, 1960 and 31st March, 1965. The completion date was extended to 31st March, 1966, by the amending Act of 1963.

It has been represented to me that the position whereby new or improved farm buildings will eventually become liable to be rated has a disincentive effect on investment in such buildings by the farming community. Proper outoffice buildings have become increasingly important as the numbers and the acceptable standards of livestock rise. The problem of providing extra accommodation or of substantially improving existing buildings is a serious one for our farmers. The prospect of eventual rating may complicate the problem and tend to detract from the incentive value of the Farm Building Scheme. In the circumstances, therefore, it appears desirable to remove any misgivings which may exist and section 2 of the Bill is intended to ensure that the valuation of any farm holding will not be increased in the future because of the provision or improvement of farm buildings. As buildings completed since 1st March, 1959, have so far enjoyed a temporary exemption from rating they too will qualify for the indefinite exemption now proposed.

The fact that the rating remission in respect of new or improved farm buildings will thus be continued on an indefinite basis, instead of the present temporary basis, will not, of course, preclude me in due course from reviewing the remission in the light of the general principles emerging from my current consideration of the whole question of rate remissions and exemptions. I recommend the Bill to the House.

(Cavan): The introduction of this Bill acknowledges that there is a problem to be dealt with. It seems to me to acknowledge that the present system of rating and local taxation is unfair and inequitable. Few people can seriously dispute that proposition. The present system of raising the necessary finances to finance local government was introduced or worked out during the last century and in my opinion, it is now completely unsuited to modern requirements. At the time when it was decided to raise the national revenue to finance such local projects as health, main roads, housing and other matters of a local nature, an argument could be put up that only owners of property were possessors of any considerable amount of wealth. At that time the ownership of a house or of land meant that the owner was a person of some substance and could afford to contribute generously to the local exchequer. That state of affairs no longer exists. The whole pattern of wealth and income has changed. It is now an undisputed fact that there are very many people occupying houses and occupying land who are unable to meet the demands of the rate collector.

It can often happen that a man in a country town occupying a small business premises finds himself in open competition with large business concerns and yet that man's poor law valuation may be, say, £30. As a result he is required to contribute the sum of, say, £100 per year or more towards the county council or urban council demand. That is unfair and unjust and the Government in continuing to finance such projects as health, main roads, housing and other matters of that sort, out of taxation raised from occupiers of property are completely out of touch with modern requirements and are failing in their duty to move with the times.

During the last general election, my Party strongly urged that there should be rethinking and a new approach to local taxation. They urged that the present system was out of date and unfair and imposed hardships on the occupiers of property. The Taoiseach, speaking in the last days of that election campaign, in late March or early April, 1965, seemed to accept our argument, seemed to accept as a fact that the present system was unjust and outdated. He promised to do something about it, to have it investigated, and to introduce a new system. I am, I think, fairly summarising now a speech made at Navan. I am somewhat disappointed, therefore, to find that the Minister here this evening does not appear to promise any such comprehensive review of the existing system. He speaks of remissions and exemptions. He appears to be determined to deal with the matter piecemeal. That is what his Bill suggests.

Section I extends for a further period of three years remission of rates in respect of new houses and other buildings. In that regard I approve of the measure, but there is no display of fresh thinking and no hint of any new approach. Indeed, the suggestion seems to be that we are satisfied to continue the present unsatisfactory system, a system we inherited from another country and from another century.

I am glad the Minister in section 2 has yielded to the suggestion that farm outoffices and outbuildings, as distinct from farm residences, should be permanently exempt from rates. I understand that is what this section means. That is a move in the right direction, but again the Minister is dealing with the matter piecemeal.

Is the Minister, I wonder, aware of the hardship imposed on small farmers throughout the country who provide better living accommodation for themselves and their families? Many of these farmers—I know them—have been living in houses totally inadequate for their requirements, certainly totally inadequate in the light of modern conditions. A farmer may decide, with the help of his family who are out working, to provide a little more comfort for himself, his wife and his family. He builds a new house consisting of three bedrooms, a bathroom, a kitchen, and perhaps another room or two. He may even reconstruct his old house to provide the same kind of accommodation. Now, the valuation on the old house was, perhaps, 30/-, £2 or £3. No sooner has he built his new house, or reconstructed his old house, than it is revalued. I am not speaking extravagantly when I say that £7, £8 or even £10 can be put on that house, situated at the end of a lane. With rates as they are at present—60/- and 70/- in the £—that farmer finds himself confronted with a bill from the rate collector for £30 or £40. That is an undue hardship on that farmer.

It is no use his going to the Commissioner of Valuation because he will tell him that the regulations are there; the law is such and such and he has to enforce the law. There is nothing he can do about it: so much per foot is charged in one part of the country and so much per foot in another. There is no use in the farmer appealing to the Circuit Court because, the Circuit Court judge, if he approaches the matter in the light of the law, cannot reduce the valuation. Circuit Court judges are, however, humane men and they try to approach these matters in a sympathetic way. Sometimes by stretching a point by way of comparisons, or something like that, they may reduce the valuation a little. But really their hands are tied and as often as not nothing can be done.

In my opinion, this demand for rates is unfair because those rates may go towards surfacing tarred roads a mile and a half from the farmer's residence. They may go to provide public water and sewerage which he may never enjoy. They may go to provide a regional water supply scheme which will not come within reach of his house during his lifetime. At the same time, the provision of pumps in his immediate neighbourhood is suspended pending the coming into operation of a regional water supply scheme. That is unfair to that farmer, and I am not speaking exclusively on behalf of the farming community, although the case I have mentioned demonstrates the unfairness and inequity of this better than anything else.

The same thing applies to a working man on a moderate income who is progressive enough to build a house on the outskirts of a town. That house can be valued at £13, £14, £15 or even £20; one would not want to have an elaborate building to have a valuation of £15 to £20 placed on it. There again he finds himself confronted with a demand for £45, £60 or even £75 rates when the remission goes. That does not encourage people to provide houses for themselves. I would go further and say it is not an equitable way of financing services such as the maintenance of main roads, the provision of health services or the provision of houses which, as I say, should be national charges.

Therefore, while we are glad to see in section 1 of the Bill a continuation of the remission of rates in respect of houses that will be built up to 1969, and while I am very glad to see that farm outoffices are to be permanently exempt from rates, I am very disappointed that we had not some assurance from the Minister that this is the last time a temporary measure of this sort would be introduced into the House and that the Government had immediate plans, in accordance with the Taoiseach's promise, to tackle this question of local taxation and to put it on a more equitable basis in keeping with the distribution of wealth in the second half of the present century, and to discontinue the unsatisfactory and unfair system taken over from another country and another century.

There is nothing discussed in this House about which more cod is talked than this question of the remission of rates and so on. While we are all, both in the Government Party and in the two Opposition Parties prepared to say on every possible occasion that some other system should be found, I have not yet heard anybody proposing what that system should be. Occasionally some rather bold person, before he realises what he is saying, suggests there should be complete revision of the system of rating. All I say is, goodness help that person if it became known publicly that he was suggesting the 1857 system on which our present rates are based should be changed for a modern type of rating. I am quite sure that the rate in the £1 could be reduced very substantially all over the country, but that does not mean that people would not be paying a great deal more for their holdings.

Like Deputy Fitzpatrick, I have the greatest sympathy with people who improve their houses or their outoffices, and then somebody comes from the Valuation Office and revises the rate on the whole property or the whole building. That does happen. I know myself of a small house which was derelict, and a man who was in a pretty bad position, having got married and having no place to go, went to live in this house and after a while succeeded in making it habitable. The next thing, a valuation of £15 was put on the house which was not worth £15 when he went into it. The whole place was not worth that.

The farming community have from time been complaining about the amount of rates they have to pay and usually around the time the annual rate is struck by the local authorities, they make a lot of noise about. The people who are really being stung in regard to rates are the people who have no land but who have house property or some business on which they are paying not two-sevenths of the rate but the full rates.

I do not propose to suggest to the Minister that I know the answer to this, because I do not. I am sure there must be some other way, but I honestly feel it is not good enough to say there must be a new system of rating or a new system of local authority financing devised. Whether we like it or not, rates are so far the only means by which local finance can be found. As far as the question of agricultural rates is concerned, while we have a lot of talk about the amount of rates which must be paid, I do not think that complete derating of agricultural lands would be very much use to the farmer. The farmer who is paying anything between £10 and £100 in rates would not be very much better if he had not got to pay these rates. None of them was ever reared on £2 a week, which would be roughly what £100 rates would represent, and the £10 or £5 valuation farmer would get very little out of it. It is a popular catchcry to say there should be complete derating of agricultural land, but it would mean very little, if anything, to farmers generally.

We are all glad that an attempt is being made to prevent this revision of rates on the farmer or on the ordinary house-owner who improves his holding or his house. Like Deputy Fitzpatrick, I say it is rather a pity that while the Minister says this is not going to be permanent, at the same time, I assume from the type of legislation which has been introduced we are going to have a repetition of this sort of thing year after year.

An effort should be made to find out if there is some other way in which local authorities will be able to finance themselves and pay for the outgoings for which they are responsible other than by means of the present system. Let me repeat that the suggestions that we should have a special revision of rates would be grand for the person who built his house within the past five or six years, but it would not be so nice for the person living in a house which could be anything from 100 years old down.

I do not know whether it is appreciated or not that a man with 200 acres of good land and a small house usually pays less rates than the man with 50 acres of land and a good house and stabling. That should not be so. There may be some way of dealing with that kind of problem but, as I say, I do not know what it is. All I can say is that the Minister or his officials might spend some time trying to find some system other than the present one, which is not satisfactory from any point of view.

I do not quite follow the gist of Deputy Tully's complaint. He started by saying that there was a great deal of "cod" talked about rates. He is probably right in that. He then went on to imply, as far as I could see, that when people suggested that there should be some general review of the whole question of rates with a view to seeing what can be done about them and getting some new system, that was all part of the "cod".

No; I suggested that that should be done.

To finish with, he said that that would be the proper course.

I suggested that from the very start.

On that basis, let me say, I agree fully with Deputy Tully's argument.

Quite frankly, I was disappointed when I read and heard the Minister's speech introducing this measure. I do not disagree at all with the measure which he has introduced. I am glad he has done it. It had to be done. But I was disappointed because it seemed to me to be implicit in what the Minister said that the Government have shelved the idea which received such prominence and publicity some time ago, that is, that a searching examination was taking place in so far as the whole question of local taxation is concerned.

I may be wrong—I may possibly be misinterpreting the intention of the Government and the Minister's mind —in thinking that the Minister's speech in introducing this Bill indicates that the Government have turned away from that and have shelved it but the Minister has made it clear that he is now contemplating some kind of permanent legislation or regulations dealing with rates remission. If there is to be permanent legislation dealing with rates remission, it seems to be quite clear that the Government have thrown in the towel as far as any drastic alteration in the local taxation system is concerned and that they visualise a continuance of the rating system as it is at present with permanent legislation dealing with remissions.

It may very well be that that is the best that can be done but at some stage —possibly this is not the occasion for it—the Minister for Local Government should take the House into his confidence as to what work has been done, what research has been done, in connection with the general question of local taxation.

So far as this Bill is concerned, Deputies on all sides of the House will agree that the present remissions which are being extended for a further period of years should be extended. I hope that before the times prescribed by the Bill expire, the Minister will have come forward with his proposals for permament legislation dealing with remissions or will have come to the Dáil with a report on the general position.

Deputy Fitzpatrick has referred to the question of farmers and farm buildings. I just want to be clear on one point. It seems to me that under this legislation, which is being continued, the position is that buildings put up under the farm improvements scheme will be free of rates, that there will not be any additional rates in respect of them. I should like to know if that continues to apply in the event of the dwellinghouse and outoffices being separated from the farm. I may be wrong in this but it seems to me that if such a separation is made, then the position may very well be that even though the outbuildings which will now go with the dwellinghouse rather than with the land will fall to be rated, and if they fall to be rated in those circumstances, the Minister should give us some indication of what approach the rating authority will make in respect of the rating.

The Minister did seem to me to draw a distinction between the farm holding and the buildings. In the middle of the second page of the typescript which was circulated, he said:

In the circumstances, therefore, it appears desirable to remove any misgivings which may exist and section 2 of the Bill is intended to ensure that the valuation on any farm holding will not be increased in future because of the provision or improvement of farm buildings.

If the farm holding as such comes to be separated as to ownership from the farm buildings or the improved farm buildings, the information I am seeking from the Minister is what the position then is as between the farm holding, by which I mean the land, and the buildings.

I do not think there is very much else that can be said with regard to this Bill. It is presented by the Minister as being on a temporary basis with a forecast of permanent legislation in future. I think most Deputies would like to see some form of permanency in this remission.

I intervene in this debate merely to say that when I first saw the Bill, entitled, Local Government (Reduction of Valuation) Bill, 1966, I hoped it would be a measure which would bring relief in respect of valuation, not to any one section of the community, but to all our people. While we certainly welcome the intention behind this restricted Bill, which is to ensure that the valuation of farm holdings will not be increased in future because of the provision or improvement of farm buildings, nevertheless, we regret very much that the Minister did not avail of this opportunity to introduce a fairer, more equitable and more just system of valuation.

Having heard the speeches of my colleagues in this House for the past hour, I appreciate that this is a complex problem, not easy of solution. Nevertheless, I do want to avail of this opportunity to point out the anomalies which exist in our valuation system. I would hope that some means would be devised very speedily to bring about a reduction in valuation for the vast majority of our people who reside in the cities and towns. I am aware, as a public representative, of the anxiety and dismay which increases in valuations have caused in recent times. It is true to say that the grants system for the building of new houses, and especially for the repair and reconstruction of houses, has not been very long in vogue. There goes with them a stipulation that the valuation should not be increased until a period of seven years has expired. It is just about now that a national review of valuations is taking place, especially in my constituency, and the valuations of all those people who availed of grants for repairs and reconstructions are going up. The people are shocked at the excessive increases in valuation which have resulted. The people who availed of these grants, presuming that they were free, gratis and for nothing, have now had a rude awakening and they realise that, in saecula saeculorum, they will have to pay through the nose for them in the form of increased rates.

I am also concerned about those traders and shopkeepers who have improved their premises to keep pace with the times we live in. For the money which they paid out to enhance the appearance of their premises, they now suffer a steep increase in valuation. The whole system is a disincentive, a discouragement to enterprising people in that, having improved their property, they should have this imposition put upon them. I would appeal to the Minister to find some way of lightening the burden on the town dwellers who are presently scourged by the high incidence of rates.

It is also an anomaly that tenants of corporation or of urban housing estates do not seem to have any right of appeal in respect of excessive valuations. I am aware of two housing schemes in my constituency, identical in every way, except that one was begun a few months before the other. In one scheme a valuation of £4 10s per house was set and in the other scheme, there was a valuation of £8 per house. This was a clear and flagrant injustice on the tenants. Those who occupied the £8 estate did not seem to have any redress or right to appeal such as the individual owner of a house has. They were told that they could only appeal through the local housing authority, the county manager. I want the Minister to make clear the right of the tenant of a local authority house to the same right of appeal to the valuation officer as the individual owner of a private house.

My feeling is that the valuation officers are rampaging through the country increasing valuations out of all proportion. The many people who appeal against what they consider to be excessive increases in valuation have little or no redress. The first they hear of the increase is when they get the rate demand note for that year. They cannot appeal until the following year and it is probably the year after when they are told the outcome of the appeal. A person can safely assume that three years will pass before the appeal is determined and, very largely, these appeals are turned down. If there is a reduction in a valuation as a result of the appeal, it is infinitesimal:

Deputy Fitzpatrick has cast doubts on the wisdom of taking the appeal to the Circuit Court. He says that district justices are humane men, anxious to administer justice and that they probably would have sympathy in a case of excessive rates. By reason of the system laid down by the State, it would seem that the courts are hamstrung in respect of amending in any radical way the decisions of the valuation officers.

While we welcome this measure, which confers an additional benefit on the farming community, we cannot ignore the fact that a very large proportion of our people cannot now live on the land. These are the people who are the worst equipped to bear increases in valuations and rates. It is high time that some of these benefits were conferred on them. Until such time as relief is secured for the town and city tenants as well as for the farming community, we shall have to contend that the present system of valuation and rates is unfair, inequitable and unjust.

I appreciate that there is a time limit on the debate and I do not want to take up an unfair amount of that time but I hope that the next time we have a Bill of this kind, which has as its caption: "Reduction of Valuation Bill," it will be a Bill which will bring relief to all our people and particularly to those who are ordinary householders, tenants of housing estates, and to the merchants and traders of the towns and cities who are at present being penalised instead of being helped for maintaining and improving their property.

Mr. Byrne

I wish briefly to support the pleas of those speakers who have asked the Minister to avail of this opportunity to take a fresh look at the valuation system and, in particular, to remove from it the anomalies and inequities which are all too frequent in its operation in the city of Dublin. It is good to see that the Minister can consider it desirable and can afford to extend indefinitely the temporary reduction exemption on farm buildings. As a city Deputy, I wish he could find in his heart a similar measure of generosity to extend to my constituents.

The Minister said that he found the fact that improved farm buildings would eventually, after the remission of rates period, become liable to be rated would be rather a disincentive to investment. That argument can be applied to a wide range of desirable productive investments such as homes and business premises. In the past year I have become aware of three cases of very harsh handling by the rating authorities of business extensions to very modest businesses in the Dublin area and in one case of very harsh treatment of an individual who availed of a grant to improve his home and to provide housing for his very large family.

The rates burden in Dublin at present is really crushing on very modest houses for people who are living from day to day on a small income. They have to pay rates of as much as £60, £70 or £80. The valuations being applied by the authorities to newly-built houses are completely exorbitant by any reasonable yardstick and particularly when judged by the standards applied to equivalent houses in the past. One finds the grossest anomalies in the Dublin area of newly-built houses being more highly rated than superior type dwellings erected 50, 60 or 70 years ago.

This rates problem has become such a crushing one that drastic action is called for and while I welcome the temporary extension for a further period-of three years of the existing seven years remission, I urge on the Minister the point of view that far more radical amelioration of the rates burden is required if the demands of simple justice and equity are to be met even in part.

A great deal of what has been said on this small amending Bill on the general question of rates may be quite true but what really tickles me is to hear Deputies talking of the inequities of the present system, some of them going on to say they agree that new houses valued in recent times are paying too much, but while they would like to see these reduced, they certainly do not want to see the older valuations increased. That will not get us anywhere. That is the "bob each way" business. You never back a winner really or if you do, you will not gain much on it.

You have two chances.

But what you get out of it will not be worth the candle in the long run, particularly if there is a dead heat.

You get more then.

There are two views about the overall valuation system. One is that it should be scrapped but, as Deputy Tully has rightly said—and I am not reflecting on anybody who has made the point; I should be delighted to hear anybody who has another view —what are we to put in its place if we do throw out the old system? Are we then to decide not to have local taxation in any form in future? This would mean we would not have any local authorities as such in the future. This may be good or bad but that is how I would see it.

We come now to the condemnation —various terms were used by various speakers—of the inactivity of myself and the Government in this matter. We have not been inactive—far from it. A series of investigations has been and is going on. An interim report was published in the fall of last year and that was designedly published to evoke public suggestions and discussions and more public interest in the whole matter so as to bring home to the people that the rating system is not as simple as it may appear to be. The most disappointing aspect of the publication of this paper was that no serious worthwhile suggestion came from any quarter. I wish suggestions would come because we are seeking them and this is no simple matter to which there is a ready alternative. The investigations are continuing.

Would the Minister say if I am right in thinking that the White Paper was more historical, so to speak, than one incorporating new ideas?

I do not differ there from the Deputy. The White Paper was merely, in essence, a first report of the investigating committee designedly published to evoke public criticism, discussion and resolutions on the matter of valuations, and so on. We hoped to get worthwhile suggestions or alternatives. I am keenly disappointed that we got no worthwhile suggestion and it might be true to say we got no suggestion.

May I suggest that the reason you got no response is that there is not one qualified valuer in the whole of the State?

In view of all the talk we had at that time about valuations, one would think there would be a response. I do not subscribe to the view that one has to be a valuer to be in a position to speak on valuations or the rating system.

Any man who pays a £10 licence fee can become a valuer.

Good suggestions need not come from valuers alone.

There is not one in Ireland.

That is not the point. With all the talk there is about valuation, rating and revaluation, equities and so on, some worthwhile suggestions might be forthcoming from any source.

(Cavan): This is the age of White Papers. Would the Minister not put his proposals in a White Paper?

Do not take this as directed to the Deputy; it is not so intended——

(Cavan): We have White Papers on everything——

The Minister should be allowed to conclude. He has only two minutes.

I have no hope of concluding in two minutes.

How long does the Minister require?

About ten or 15 minutes.

We agree. I do not want to be rude but it would be much better for the Minister to go on and get finished with it.

It has to go to the Seanad—is that not the urgency?

I was told to change from No. 11 to No. 12 and I understood it would go so fast that we would not know it was in the House until it was out of it again. Nobody has spoken on this side of the House and I must try to correct some of the false ideas and misconceptions that appear to be current among some of the speakers. The first report has emerged and the second is well advanced and will be emerging for consideration in the very near future. The undertaking given by the Taoiseach in 1965 still stands and will be given effect to as soon as we have got the reports of the committee investigating this whole matter.

Deputy Treacy complained that grants are a dead loss because people who repaired and improved their premises did not know anything about valuations and rating. He complained that suddenly and without warning the poor, innocent people have discovered that all the money they got for nothing will, in the end, cost more than what they got. This I do not swallow.

If they live long enough, it will be taken off, no doubt.

There was a general exhortation that the next Bill which is brought in by me three years hence —if I am alive, I shall probably be bringing it in—should contain reliefs for all. You cannot have reliefs for all and continue a valuation and rating system: somebody has to pay for it. Some Deputies exaggerated in order to make the best case they could but the situation is not at all as desperate as they would like to make it appear. Compare the situation today with that of 30 odd years ago. Big changes have taken place in the incidence of the cost and the payment of the cost of local services. Today, 51 per cent of the total expenditure of £97 million going into the service of local authorities is being contributed from the central Exchequer. In the present year, only 33 per cent of the total cost will be carried by rates. The State contribution, percentage-wise, has gone up to 51 and it has been reduced to 33 per cent for the local authority rate-payers. The difference between that and 100 per cent is by way of receipts of earnings from various institutions, and so on. However, there is a big change in emphasis as to where the money is coming from. Despite disparaging remarks, the Health Services White Paper——

(Cavan): We could paper the House with them.

——contains proposals for equalising the rates burden as between different counties and announced very worthwhile changes, for instance, that steps would be taken to transfer an increased part of the cost of the health services from the rates to the Exchequer. The transfer to the Exchequer is becoming effective this year. As the cost of the health services is 38 per cent of the total expenditure of local authorities, the House will appreciate that, as an interim measure and before final consideration has as yet been given by the Government to these changes, this Health White Paper is now a very significant step forward in the carrying of a greater part of these service costs by the central Exchequer, added to what we have been carrying in the past.

Questions have been asked in regard to local authority houses occupied by tenants who pay rates in addition to rents. It has been stated that they have no option whatsoever, that they have no right of appeal if they feel aggrieved that the valuation struck on the houses they now occupy is too high. This is not so. The law is that any person aggrieved by an entry in the valuation lists can send notice of appeal to the local authority and the secretary or the clerk must send the notice to the Commissioners. Such a tenant and any aggrieved person has the right to appeal against any entry in the valuation lists and when they make that appeal to the local authority, it must be sent forward to the Commissioners of Valuation.

Has the Minister got the date by which that must be done? I think it is some time in June.

15th June.

Then it has passed.

(Cavan): Late applications may be accepted, I think.

The general date is 15th June. Deputy Fitzpatrick complained of the inadequacy and uselessness of the appeals procedure. To my mind, that procedure is pretty adequate. The first appeal is to the Commissioners of Valuation. If aggrieved by the result, the person may make a subsequent appeal to the courts. The hands of the Circuit Court judge are not tied, contrary to what has been indicated here. It is open to him to reduce the valuation by any amount he sees fit——

(Cavan): In accordance with the law.

——taking into account all the circumstances, including the valuations of other houses in the same area. This goes a little bit farther than Deputy Fitzpatrick would have us believe.

Deputy O'Higgins asked whether a farm or outoffice will, in the future, get the benefit of section 2 of this Bill. He also asked about the position if at some subsequent date, the farmhouse and this building should be separated from the farm—in other words, if it ceased to be a farm residence, a farmyard, whatever you may call it. Let me put it this way. The answer to what I think is his problem is that if the farm building is ultimately converted to a factory —just an instance—then this building would become liable for revision in the normal way that buildings for revision are put forward to the Valuation Office.

(Cavan): Would one of these large piggeries or a broiler house be considered a farm building for the purpose of this section?

Are they being considered at the moment? I ask that question of the legal gentlemen opposite. We have remissions in existence now and have had for a long time. If they have been enjoying that privilege, I take it that they will continue to enjoy whatever the benefits may be.

My question was not about use of the outoffices as a factory, and so on, but where the residence and the land become separated and the outoffices go with the building and they are just used as outoffices by the new owner for residential purposes. Does that automatically mean that they will now be re-rated?

It is rather difficult to be very definite about this. I would say that when and if they ceased to be used for farm purposes, the intention of our reliefs here would have been somewhat obscured or broadened, and I would give the same reply as I have already given, that they would be entitled to be listed for revision. We will have to wait and see where we go after that.

Taking it all round, I believe the proposal here in regard to farm buildings is of some value to the farmers and should be some additional incentive to them to avail of the farm buildings grant scheme and get on with the extension of their farm buildings so necessary for further expansion of agriculture here. People may say that is all very well but what about the rest of the community? Such criticism does not take away from what we are trying to do here. If this is good, it is good, and we are going to do it. The overall question of the inequities in our valuation system as now operated is a matter that cannot be dealt with in a piecemeal way. This Bill is a continuation of certain exemptions and remissions we have been enjoying in various degrees over the years.

It cannot be said that this is an attempt on the part of the Government or myself to deal with the overall situation. We do not admit that we cannot do anything in the future about the rating and valuation system. We are still on that. When we come to the stage of being able to bring to the Dáil firm proposals after a proper evaluation has taken place, we will do so. Let the House know without doubt that this is our intention. We are not going back on the undertaking given about a year and a half ago. In the meantime if anybody. Deputies or people outside, have any suggestions they feel would be of use to us in examining the local taxation system, might I invite them to send them to me? They will be gladly received, fully examined and used with proper acknowledgment when the time comes if we find them worthwhile.

Underline "with proper acknowledgment".

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.
Barr
Roinn