Dublin Gas Order, 1966.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Dr. Hillery)

I move:

That the Dublin Gas Order, 1966 proposed to be made by the Minister for Transport and Power and laid in draft before Dáil Éireann on the 5th day of July, 1966 under Subsection 4 of section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, be approved."

Gas undertakings generally operate under special Acts which authorise them to manufacture and distribute gas in certain specified areas and which impose certain controls on their finances. Modifications to these special Acts may be made by order under section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920. Before an order of this kind is made, it has to be laid in draft before both Houses of the Oireachtas. The Houses of the Oireachtas may, by resolution, approve the draft order in the form submitted or they may approve it with modifications or additions. When such approval is given I may make the Order in the form in which it has been approved.

The Alliance and Dublin Consumers Gas Company have applied to me for a special order. The objects of the proposed order are to enable the company to raise £500,000, by borrowing, to increase fourfold the amount of revenue that they may allocate for replacement or renewal of plant each year—at present the limit is £26,000 a year—and to increase similarly the limit to the total amount in the funds which can be set up for such purposes —at present the limit is £260,000— to use more of their lands for the manufacture of gas and for ancillary activities and to acquire, by agreement, further land for other purposes and to take over, jointly with Calor Gas Ireland Limited, the interests of G. Anderson Ltd., 11 Merrion Square, Dublin, in a number of the smaller gas companies in Ireland.

Notice of the proposed order was published in Iris Oifigiúil and in a daily newspaper.

Mr. Sweetman

Why so coy about which one?

Dr. Hillery

I shall give that to the Deputy on the next Stage. I am doing this for the Minister.

Copies of the draft order were sent to the public and local authorities concerned and to the occupiers and landlords of houses within three hundred yards of the site which it is proposed to use for the manufacture of gas. No objection to the proposed order was received.

Apart from the power relating to the take over of the interests of G. Anderson Ltd. in the other gas companies, the powers requested by the company are necessary in order to make improvements in their gas manufacturing process which will be required if the gas undertaking is to survive against growing competition from suppliers of other fuels. The new process will use oil instead of coal as its main raw material.

The proposed takeover is in the interests of the smaller gas undertakings as it will place the company's resources in the fields of science and technology at their disposal and should improve the supply of gas to the communities served.

I am satisfied as to the need for the order and that there is nothing in it repugnant to the public interest. I, therefore, recommend the order for the approval of the House.

Mr. Donegan

It is clear that, as we move forward in technology and as costs become greater, it is necessary that organisations such as the Dublin Gas Company should have permission, if permission is required, to spend more money on the replacement of plant and on the extension of their activities. The fall in the value of money would necessitate this in any case.

The proposal that the Dublin Gas Company take over jointly with Calor Gas Ireland Ltd. The interests of G. Anderson Ltd. is an interesting one. We all know that around Ireland the production of gas has proved uneconomic in many cases and in fact one plant has been allowed to run down. The cost of the replacement of the plant is prohibitive and it is a better commercial undertaking to provide bottled gas even though the bottle may be a much larger one than the one we are used to seeing at home.

I should like the Minister to tell us when he is replying what are the interests which are now being taken over by the Dublin Gas Company and Calor Gas. We are told that G. Anderson Ltd. has an interest in a number of small gas companies, and if the Minister has a list with him of the degree of shareholding which is held by Anderson, I should be obliged for it.

It is interesting that in the new process oil will be used instead of coal as the main raw material in the production of gas. I wonder about this because those who use anthracite from Ballingarry and from other collieries in the midlands, such as Kilkenny, know the extreme efficiency of this fuel. I am not skilled, as I suppose most people here are not skilled, to the extent of knowing whether it is practicable to produce gas by the use of this fuel. However, it would be a retrograde step if we did not attempt to use native fuel in the production of gas. It is possible that that sort of work could not be done on peat or on turf, but it did seem to me that the traditional method of producing gas was by using coal and that if it could be done by using the products of the collieries which have been in trouble here for the last year or so, it would be the right thing to do for the nation and for those who work in the collieries. Would the Minister tell us something about that when he is replying?

Mr. Treacy

The important statement the Minister made in respect of this order is, I think, that he is satisfied that there is nothing in it repugnant to the public interest. I should very much like him to elaborate on that statement and tell us the extent of this Dublin Gas Order and how many gas undertakings are involved. Many of us are aware of the importance of gas undertakings in small towns, the service they provide for the local community and also the employment they provide. We should like to be assured in respect of these takeovers that there will be nothing like a monopoly created and that the consuming public will be adequately safeguarded.

We should also like to be assured that the workers engaged in this important industry will be adequately safeguarded and that no redundancy will arise as a result of the change over from coal to oil. My information is that the substitution of oil for coal does and will make for redundancy. I should like the Minister to indicate to us to what extent that may be so. Otherwise, we shall have to accept his assurance that there is nothing repugnant to the public interest in this measure.

Mr. P. Byrne

We are dealing in this matter with the Gas Regulation Act, 1920. As far as my memory serves me, we are also dealing with other Acts which go even further back in time than 1920. I want to avail of this opportunity to inquire from the Minister if the Companies Act, 1953, applies to the Dublin Gas Company. I do not think it does. I am aware that the Dublin Gas Company is one of the leading public companies, and its annual accounts are published in an archaic form. It would seem to me to be very desirable that the accounting provisions as to disclosure of information to the shareholders under the Companies Act ought to be applied to the Dublin Gas Company which, by reason of the fact that it was formed under these earlier Acts, was excluded from the provisions of the Companies Act on an old point of principle which would seem to be no longer relevant in these days and times.

The suggestion I am making is particularly desirable because the step now being taken is going to result in the Dublin Gas Company becoming a holding company. That makes it even more necessary that the provisions of the Companies Act relating to consolidated accounts be applied to the Dublin Gas Company in the shareholders' and in the public interest.

Mr. Dillon

I want to ask, the Minister two questions. Is it true that you cannot smother yourself with gas produced from oil? I do not know whether the Minister knows that any more than I do. The other question I want to ask him is this, arising out of what Deputy Byrne said: I have a kind of vague recollection that there is some provision in the old Gas Acts that payment of their dividends to shareholders is related in some way to the price they charge the consumer for gas and that there must be, if they propose to increase their dividends, some corresponding concession to the consumers of gas in the price per therm charged. If it would be convenient for the Minister to answer these specific questions, I would be obliged.

Dr. Hillery

In answer to Deputy Sweetman about the paper, it is the Irish Independent.