Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 6 Dec 1966

Vol. 226 No. 1

Committee on Finance. - Vote 28—Office of the Minister for Education (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

Go ndeonófar suim nach mó ná £1,274,220 chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1967, le haghaidh Tuarastail agus Costais Oifig an Aire Oideachais (lena n-áirítear Forais Eolaíochta agus Ealaíon), le haghaidh Seirbhísí Ilghnéitheacha áirithe Oideachais agus Cultúir, agus Ildeontais-i-gCabhair.

—(Minister for Education.)

Mr. O'Malley

There has been a lot of comment, I suppose, about a circular, referred to in the newspapers, which has been issued to parents in the Dublin area. Lest the impression might get abroad that many schools issue such circulars, I should like to assure the House that our evidence is that only one such school is involved and the headmistress of this school, in a moment when she suffered from either inverted snobbery or delusions as to what might happen when direct grants are paid by the State in lieu of fees, rushed out with this unfortunate circular. She said to parents: "We are charging £20 at present; if you wish to remain out of the scheme, I will have to charge you £33; £11 a term, £1 over the suggested figure of £10 a term, £30 in all; put a circle round ‘yes' or ‘no' as to which you want."

I wonder did this lady not realise that if she wished to have her school that way, she could still charge the £20 and remain out? Of course, parents will have something to say to all this. Does this headmistress not appreciate from my opening speech—and it was widely reported—that there is nothing in my scheme which will take from the autonomy of the secondary schools. How far can we go with such muddled thinking?

I should like to remark on discussions by various local authorities about scholarships in future. A number of people are asking—and I suppose it is a reasonable question—why if we will have free education from the 1st September, 1967, provision is being made for scholarship examinations in 1967? Scholarship examinations are governed by legislation. It will be necessary to introduce amending legislation in order to discontinue scholarship schemes and to determine what is to be done in relation to education with the money hitherto provided for scholarships. There is also the fact that pupils have been preparing for scholarship examinations since the beginning of the year and at this late stage it would be psychologically wrong and unjust to prevent them from competing for a scholarship if they so wished.

I have also had to take into account the Gaeltacht pupils who depended on scholarships for post-primary education. It is most important to note, and I trust local authorities will take note of it, that when scholarships disappear as they will after 1967, that Gaeltacht or other pupils need have no fears. They will be far better provided for than at the present time.

Deputy Carter made a plea for additional audio-visual aids in national schools. I should like to assure him that we have already taken steps which will more than answer his plea.

Deputy Larkin asked a question about providing as soon as possible for schools in newly built-up areas. I have great sympathy with the case the Deputy makes and all I ask him is to use his influence with the Housing Committee of the Corporation in order to obtain for my Department as soon as possible the likely population increase involved in any building project. We are keeping in close touch on this matter.

I should like to refer to the Fine Gael aspect of free education in their programme. Capitation grants are evidently to be increased by £14 for the intermediate certificate and £19 for the leaving certificate. Where income from fees is less than, or equal to, income from additional capitation, then they offer free education to all pupils, and where additional capitation grants are less than the total fees in day schools that accept the scheme they must offer a proportion of free places, say, a minimum of one-third.

The selection of children for free places must be confined to children whose parents cannot afford this type of expensive education. The selection has to be left to the school. I quote from the Fine Gael policy on page 40 of the document.

Mr. Cosgrave

I thought the Minister had no copy.

Mr. O'Malley

Not as I explained until the time I was introducing my Estimate. I sent a copy of my speech to everyone. There was such a ban on the issuing of the document and such secrecy in case anyone would jump the gun.

Leaving the selection to the school ensures that poor children will never get inside the doors of these schools because the poor child will not apply and it will ensure also that clever pupils will be creamed off to the expensive schools, if they can comply with the Fine Gael policy. The Fine Gael policy proposes a similar arrangement for boarding schools as for day schools but supplemented by maintenance grants to cover the cost of board. Incidentally, I think they forgot to cost this item. This is on page 39, paragraph 112. They have a blank for this cost.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

It is costed in the schedule, as the Minister knows.

Mr. O'Malley

It is not, with respect, costed in the schedule.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

It is, and the Minister knows it. It is like the Minister saying that education was not in Towards a Just Society.

Mr. O'Malley

It is not costed in the schedule.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

It is.

Mr. O'Malley

Senator FitzGerald may have intended to cost it.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

I assert that it is costed in the schedule.

Mr. O'Malley

Senator FitzGerald may have intended to cost it.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

It is costed.

Mr. O'Malley

It may have been in the draft copy and intended but it is not in the final copy.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

It is costed in the copy the Minister got.

Mr. O'Malley

Well, anyway, it will never arise. Still referring to the Fine Gael policy, evidently they forgot that such things exist in Ireland as vocational schools. Are they mentioned in the policy?

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Certainly, appointments to them were mentioned.

Mr. O'Malley

I beg your pardon?

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Certainly, it is.

Mr. O'Malley

Certainly it is?

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Yes.

Mr. O'Malley

Does Deputy O'Higgins appreciate that there is no remission of fees whatsoever proposed in the vocational schools of Ireland?

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

That is not so.

Mr. O'Malley

I am afraid that it is so.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

I can assure the Minister.

Mr. O'Malley

In vocational and technical schools and in secondary tops there is no provision for remission of fees. Perhaps Fine Gael were so obsessed with the problem of the rich man's school that they forgot the poor man's school.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

I think the Minister had better come to a lecture on Fine Gael policy and he will learn something about education.

Mr. O'Malley

These schools are not taken into account in the costing. Incidentally, the vocational education committees will be surprised to learn from the Fine Gael document that their schools are State schools—a very interesting observation.

Everyone knows that Senator Garret FitzGerald put a tremendous amount of work into this Fine Gael document and that he is the author of it. The document advocates enhanced financing by way of additional capitation grants to higher fee-charging schools in order that they might make a percentage of vacancies available for pupils who would not be in a position to pay fees. It is very difficult to believe that this is the same Senator FitzGerald as the person who, in the publication Business and Finance, of 2nd September last, advocated, if he advocated anything, that capitation grants should be withdrawn altogether from these high-fee boarding schools and that the moneys thus saved be devoted to the education in other schools of the intelligent children of poor people. I wonder who got at him.

Mr. Carty

He was brainwashed.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Deputy Carty had better keep quiet. Otherwise, there will be another announcement from the Government Information Bureau.

Mr. Carty

I made an innocent observation, that he was brainwashed.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Deputy Carty had better keep quiet. I would advise him to keep silent on education.

Mr. O'Malley

I see that we are getting under the skin of Fine Gael.

Mr. Cosgrave

Tell us about the Commission on Higher Education and when they are going to report. Who twisted the Taoiseach's arm to repudiate Deputy Carty?

Mr. O'Malley

Perhaps the explanation is that while Senator FitzGerald is capable of some social thinking, the Fine Gael Party is not and never will be. This is quite amazing. In September, Senator FitzGerald—I quote from Business and Finance of 2nd September—had this interesting observation to make:

It is no wonder, then, that the income tax payer who gets married has his purchasing power increased by about £50 a year by the State— while those too poor to pay income tax are left to support two on an income inadequate for one. It is no wonder that the unskilled worker with several children has his income increased by £16 when another child is born—while the better-off person paying income tax at the full rate has his purchasing power raised by £68 on the occurrence of this happy event. No wonder too that while the poor parent seeking a post-primary education for his clever child has little chance of securing one of the small number of scholarships available for such cases, the better-off parent who can afford to do without his child's earning-power and to pay school fees gets a double subsidy from the State in the form of grants that reduce by almost threequarters the fees he pays, as well as the income tax allowance that is not available in respect of the children of poorer parents, who are unable to continue at school.

That is self-explanatory. As I say, who got at Senator FitzGerald in the meantime?

Mr. Cosgrave

Tell us who got at the Taoiseach about the Commission on Higher Education.

Mr. O'Malley

Do not worry about that.

Mr. Cosgrave

Somebody twisted his arm to repudiate Deputy Carty.

Mr. O'Malley

Deputy Carty is a Member of the House. Are we all to be afraid of opening our mouths?

Mr. James Tully

That is the whole point.

Mr. O'Malley

There is an interesting, constructive editorial in the Irish Independent today, which I did not get an opportunity of reading until teatime. They mention very topical and reasonable questions. They refer to free books. Surely, it is socially more acceptable to have the scheme for free books administered through the headmasters of schools, who can do it in a quiet, unobstructive way rather than by means of a State-administered means test. A similar scheme has been in operation for many years in the national schools. Of course, hand in hand with this measure, we will have to improve the provision for free books in national schools because not only is it inadequate, to put it mildly, but some teachers down the years have had to put their hands deep into their pockets to pay for the books of poor children.

I have been asked why I have not included all pupils in the free books grant. I am still talking about the editorial. There are two basic reasons for my not doing so. The first relates to cost and the second and possibly the more important is that I am convinced that free books should be supplied only where the provision of them would be a hardship on the parents.

As to my plan removing an incentive to economy in the secondary school system, surely the opposite is the case. My plan, in effect, says that if you want to benefit from it you must keep your fees within certain limits. Heretofore there was no brake on the fees which schools might charge. Still on the Irish Independent editorial, I cannot accept the proposition that my plan falls heavily on schools which have kept their fees low. I dealt with this point earlier. The setting of a minimum of £15 is designed precisely to get away from such a position. There are very many secondary schools whose fees vary between £5 and £15, and they will now get £15. Furthermore, and this is most important, many schools, which, on paper, charged a fee of £20, collected, in fact, an average of £12 10s. Recently a school was opened in a certain part of the country by one of our most distinguished citizens. He said: “This school charges a fee of £20; the average collected is nearer to £10.” The religious Order running the school have to remit nearly 50 per cent of the potential fee because the children are too poor to pay it. The point I am making is that the State is saying: “Now, your fees are £20 or £25, or whatever the figure is, for every pupil in your school. You will not have the cost of collection; you do not have to remit anything.” Therefore instead of the average being £10 or £12 10s., if their fees are £20, they are getting a full £20. In fact, it is reasonable to suppose that schools charging £30 to £35 could be expected to come into this scheme. There is no basis for any allegations that my plan will fall heavily on such schools.

Still on the Irish Independent, the editorial casts doubts, in a very nice way, on our ability to provide post-primary facilities. Past performance in this regard should remove any fears that exist. Back in 1955, there were over 56,000 pupils in secondary schools. In 1965, we catered for 93,000 pupils. In 1955, there were 20,000 pupils in vocational schools and in 1965, over 33,000 pupils. Therefore we can proceed confidently on the basis that as additional accommodation is required, it will be provided.

Deputy T.F. O'Higgins spoke about the Department of Education. Fine Gael have set out by proposing a school committee to cure ills which do not exist. School curricula and syllabuses, I should like to tell them, have never been framed by other than university professors, inspectors and teachers. Ministers and administrators merely exercise a general control and are guided by the professional advisers when it comes to those curricula and syllabuses. In other words, they are proposing a cure for an ill which does not exist. There is, within the Fine Gael Party, an ex-Minister for Education. If nobody else in the Party was aware of it, surely he would have informed them of this if he had been asked?

I was glad that Deputy Mrs. Desmond adverted to the initial difficulties which are likely to arise with regard to the provision of transport. In the Fine Gael plan, they had a suggestion that they would provide transport for those over five miles from the school, and then it was subject to a means test. It is quite impossible to run transport on a means test. Ours is 100 per cent free; there is no means test; and it applies to children three miles from the school. Deputy Larkin suggested it should be closer to the school.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

I think the Minister is correct.

Mr. O'Malley

Thank you.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Would he apply the same thinking to school books?

Mr. O'Malley

I should very much like to do so, but it would cost £400,000 to have them entirely free. As against that, there is a responsibility on parents who can afford to pay. We calculated 25 per cent as the figure of pupils who might require free school books. There is a responsibility on parents, if they can pay, to pay. Administratively, it is easier to give a contribution for school books. As I said, there was in some newspapers this idea that 25 per cent was an unfair figure, that there might be a higher percentage. I possibly did not explain it correctly. In some of the poorer areas, 100 per cent of the books will be free. In certain poor areas of the cities and remote rural areas where the children are very poor, children of very small farmers, labouring men, road workers or people with seasonal employment, books will be free. Of course, there are other areas where there would not be any necessity to give free books. We calculated that the national average would be around 25 per cent.

I feel it would be a retrograde step to set up a section in my Department to administer a means test for the books. I feel the headmaster can consult with the other teachers on the background and income of a family and we will not be very strict about the manner in which he decides who should and should not get free books. I agree it would be a consummation devoutly to be wished to give all the books free and possibly in time that will occur, because they are very costly nowadays. One of the first things I asked when I went into the Department imbued with enthusiasm was: "Why are you always changing the texts. Is this a racket for the publishers?" There are different sides to every story. I asked a teacher. He said: "I have a hard enough job to do. If I had to do Macbeth or Hamlet for the rest of my life, it would affect my mind."

Mr. James Tully

Right first time.

Mr. O'Malley

To get back to Deputy Mrs. Desmond, she, as usual, made a most constructive speech. She set a headline which unfortunately the members of Fianna Fáil——

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Mr. O'Malley

——I mean, members of the Fine Gael Party did not follow.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

There is none of them in the House. The Minister can attack them.

Mr. O'Malley

That shows how human I am. It is a pity some of Deputy Mrs. Desmond's Party also did not follow her headline. Anyway, I should like to say to Deputy Mrs. Desmond that we will have some teething troubles in providing this transport service but I should like to assure her that we are laying out our plans already. We do not intend to allow ourselves to be bogged down by any minor difficulties that may arise. It is a big problem of course. While I did not refer specifically to career guidance in my opening speech, I should like Deputy Mrs. Desmond to know that we are building up in my Department the psychological service which will be necessary to undertake such guidance on a wide scale.

Deputies Lindsay and T.F. O'Higgins referred to the problem of the slow-learning child. Both of them asked what the Government were doing about this child. This shows up the general attitude of the Fine Gael Party in regard to education. Both in the Fine Gael document and here in the House, they have waxed eloquent about the needs of those children in the matter of special education. Surely somebody must have told them and their advisers that about a year ago my predecessor announced publicly the setting up of a committee to study this problem? The committee, as everyone knows, is composed of teachers, psychologists and officials of my Department. I shall have the report of the committee within the next few months. The terms of reference of the committee were to investigate the causes and extent of educational backwardness and to make recommendations in regard to the courses suited to these children and the training of teachers to teach these children. When I have studied the report, I shall be able to take practical steps to help these children instead of just talking about their difficulties.

Deputy Lindsay asked was there any difference between what I said to the National Union of Journalists about free post-primary education and my statement in relation to making such education available. I assure the Deputy any difference there may appear to be is merely verbal. My intentions have not altered.

Deputy James Tully alleged that the policy in relation to small schools was merely an excuse for delaying the building of schools. Let me repeat once more the facts: last year 130 new schools were built and 121 major improvement schemes were carried out. This was far and away the biggest school building programme accomplished in the history of the State; 60 short of 24,000 places were provided, which represents 1/20th of the total required in national schools. In this context the Deputy's allegation, I am glad to say, is without foundation. When speaking of school building, Deputy Tully should not lose sight of the fact that during the six-year period of the Coalition Governments, of which his Party was a member, only about 300 schools were built.

Mr. James Tully

I have not lost sight of the fact that in the past year dozens of schools listed for building were not completed and the excuse given was that a bigger school was being built in the same parish.

Mr. O'Malley

Contrast that with the period from 1957 when 773 schools were built, not to talk about the major improvement schemes. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach, Deputy Carty——

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

He has left the House to consult the Commission on Higher Education.

Mr. O'Malley

——lamented that no great progress had been made towards the establishment of regional technical colleges.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Oh, he said more than that.

Mr. O'Malley

I set up a steering committee to advise on what should be taught in these colleges. The committee was drawn from the universities, business and management, and one civil servant in, I think, an advisory capacity; all 13 or 14 members are leaders in their own respective spheres. I shall have their findings next month. We are very grateful to this committee and I pay tribute to the valuable work they have done. I expect to have plans and bills of quantities prepared and, in 12 months' time, I hope to put these out for tender and, at the end of 1968, or early 1969, these eight colleges should be almost completed. This is one of our most important priorities. Deputy Lindsay said that no exhaustive survey of post-primary——

Mr. James Tully

The Minister has not finished with Deputy Carty.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

We will get Deputy Carty by instalments.

Mr. O'Malley

Deputy Lindsay said no exhaustive survey of post-primary facilities had taken place. That is not true. Any headmaster would have told him that we have requested and received from each post-primary school within the last six months, detailed information with regard to the accommodation and facilities in each school. On the 16th of this month I am meeting the five associations comprising all the various interests involved in secondary education for discussions.

On the information we have received and on the school enrolments, existing and projected, we are basing our county surveys. I referred in my opening statement to these surveys and indicated the counties to which the results of these surveys have already issued. We have collected an enormous volume of information, the processing of which will take some time and, as the survey in each county is completed, copies are sent to the various educational interests in the county and having had time to study the documents, meetings for discussion will be arranged with them. Indeed, the first meeting actually took place in Kilkenny a couple of days ago. A meeting is scheduled in Carlow on the 12th of this month, in Letterkenny on the 14th and in Portlaoise on the 19th. Out of these discussions the final plan will emerge for the expansion and co-ordination of post-primary education facilities to meet current and future demands.

Deputy James Tully claimed that the grants to the Meath Vocational Education Committee had been cut by £7,000 in April last.

Mr. James Tully

And £3,000 in August.

Mr. O'Malley

And, as he says, by £3,000 in August. I want to give him the facts. The total expenditure of the Meath Vocational Education Committee in the year ended 31st March, 1966, was £105,000 odd. The financial scheme sanctioned for the year ending 31st March, 1967, authorised an expenditure of £112,000 odd and provided for an income for the year of approximately £118,000. Instead, therefore, of a cut in its resources, the Meath Vocational Education Committee have in 1966-67 £7,000 more to spend.

Mr. James Tully

They have not, and the Minister should check his facts. The estimate was cut after the amount had been allocated.

Mr. O'Malley

When the Deputy studies the Official Report, if he thinks my information is wrong, he can put down a question, ask all the supplementaries he wants, and raise it on the Adjournment, if he so wishes. I am giving him the facts. I do not falsify figures. That would give me no pleasure. I am trying to reply to the points raised and I am giving the Deputy the facts.

Mr. James Tully

But they are not the facts. That information is not correct.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. O'Malley

If Deputy Tully will let me finish he will, perhaps, better understand the position. Instead of a cut in its resources the Meath Vocational Education Committee in 1966-67 have £7,000 more to spend than they spent last year. In addition, they have sufficient income to clear a debit balance, which stood at £5,311 on 1st April, 1966, which is not a bad situation at all in which to be. Does Deputy Tully know about the solvency grant we gave to Meath?

Mr. James Tully

Yes.

Mr. O'Malley

How much was that?

Mr. James Tully

I also know the Minister's figures are incorrect.

Mr. O'Malley

How much was the solvency grant?

Mr. James Tully

The Minister's figures are incorrect.

Mr. O'Malley

It was in this context that the amount of the solvency grant for 1966-67 was finally fixed at £10,800, instead of £13,800, as originally estimated and the point to be borne in mind in this connection is that these additional grants are intended to produce solvency and not a credit balance at the end of the year. The committee's resources for 1966-67 were £118,000 which includes grants from the Department of a total of £61,000, including the solvency grant and £48,000 contributed from local rates, and the balance was made up of sundry items, for instance, tuition fees and sales of produce. Of course, tuition fees are now being abolished.

The committee scheme which was submitted in November, 1965, showed that there were 74 whole-time teachers employed. The enrolment in the committee schools then was: whole-time continuation 959 on the register and attendance, 774. The apprentices on day release were 45, and the attendance was 39. Other part-time courses were 267 and the attendance was 225, and evening courses on the register were 785 and the attendance, 467. The financial scheme, as sanctioned, provided for the appointment of four additional whole-time teachers. It was appreciated that the enrolment and attendance figures I have just given would show an increase for 1966-67 and, on 2nd August of this year, the committee were asked to have a total examination made of the manner in which the teaching sources were deployed so as to make the most use possible of those resources. They were informed that the Department would be glad to be advised in due course of the result of this examination and I am not aware that any case has been made following this examination for additional teaching staffs.

Mr. James Tully

Is the Minister aware that temporary teachers were dismissed?

Mr. O'Malley

From the action taken recently in respect of CERT scholarships and in relation to apprenticeship courses, the committee should know that I am prepared to authorise additional expenditure under their scheme, where it is shown to be necessary.

Mr. James Tully

It has been shown to be necessary.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has no licence to interrupt the Minister.

Mr. James Tully

What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Mr. O'Malley

I am giving the sauce now to Deputy Tully and it appears to be most unpalatable to him.

Mr. James Tully

The Minister cannot give the facts; he has not got them.

Mr. O'Malley

If the Deputy is in any doubt, he can consult the Chief Executive Officer of Meath Vocational Education Committee, or put down some questions.

In relation to buildings, there has been no hold-up in any building in County Meath in recent years. There are four projects in progress at the moment, the estimated cost is £73,000, and five projects have been completed since October, 1965, at a cost of £70,000.

I was questioned by several Deputies on the ever-rising graph of the national school building programme. In 1955-1956 the total expenditure on national schools was £1,216,000 and this consisted of 46 new schools and 24 major improvements. In 1965-66, the total expenditure on national schools was £3,644,000; 130 new schools were built, 121 major improvement schemes and pupil places for 23,940 pupils were provided.

I trust I have referred to most of the more important points discussed in the debate. I might possibly not have been as exhaustive as we might have hoped on this occasion but in the times that are in it, I trust that is understandable. I thank Deputies on all sides of the House for their contributions and, as I said before tea, I will study all Parties' programmes, the speeches of all the Members of the House and, again, anything constructive I see in them —if it is of benefit to our children— I will unashamedly have no hesitation in incorporating in any future scheme of mine.

Vote put and agreed to.