Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 6 Apr 1967

Vol. 227 No. 7

Auctioneers and House Agents Bill, 1966 [Seanad]: Second Stage.

Minister for Justice (Mr. B. Lenihan)

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time.

The Bill comes to the Dáil from the Seanad and an explanatory memorandum, revised to take account of the changes made in it in the Seanad, has been circulated. The memorandum begins by explaining that, for convenience, it refers only to auctioneers but that the references to auctioneers are to be taken as applying to house agents as well. In what I have to say now, I propose to adopt the same device, so Deputies will understand that, even if I do not mention house agents expressly, I mean to include them in my references to auctioneers.

The Bill has two main objects. The first is, to increase from £2,000 to £5,000 the deposit which a licensed auctioneer is required to keep in the High Court. The second is to require auctioneers to keep clients' moneys in a special bank account and to keep proper records of them.

As regards the proposed increase in the deposit, the position, as Deputies are aware, is that the present deposit of £2,000 was fixed by the Auctioneers and House Agents Act, 1947, so there is a strong presumption, right from the outset, that it is inadequate today, because of changes in money values over the last 20 years. However, as I explained in the Seanad, the proposal to increase the deposit to £5,000 is not put forward just as a mechanical or routine adjustment of the existing figure to take account of changes in the value of money. It takes account of what has actually happened, in the matter of claims against the deposit, in so far as official records can supply that information.

The official figures show that, over a period of years, there are, on average, five claims per year against deposits. The figures show, further, that four out of the five — again this is on average — are fully covered by the existing deposit of £2,000. This means that we have an average of one case a year in which the deposit is insufficient to meet claims. Unfortunately, in those cases where the deposit does fall short, there is no source of information from which we could establish by how much it falls short.

Ideally, of course, the deposit should be such as would cover any loss, however great. However, under a system which operates, in practice, on the basis of fidelity guarantee bonds, unlimited cover is not practicable. Even if an insurance company would provide cover for an unlimited amount, which is highly unlikely, the premium would certainly be such as to be a considerable burden on quite a few auctioneers and an impossible burden on some. So it is necessary to look for a reasonable compromise.

The figure that I propose in the Bill, namely, £5,000, would, I think, be rather low if it stood by itself. However, it should not be assessed in the context of the existing arrangements but in the context of the other proposals in the Bill which would require auctioneers to keep clients' moneys in a special bank account and to keep adequate records.

It is, perhaps, almost a cliché to say that, if an auctioneer is determined to make away with clients' moneys, no restrictions of this kind will succeed in stopping him. In many cases, however, a man who makes away with other people's money does not begin with a fraudulent intention and, in the case of a business like an auctioneer's business, a man may easily find himself in difficulties, not because of any intention or plan to defraud, but because of carelessness in the keeping of records and in mixing clients' moneys with his own. The hope I have for these provisions about special accounts and so on is that they will prevent people from starting on the slippery slope that ends in the Bankruptcy Court or perhaps, even, in a prosecution for fraud.

I am putting some emphasis on the fact that in many of these cases where things go wrong, it is not a question of fraud, at least at the outset. I am doing this first of all because it is a fact which gives grounds for hoping that the requirements now proposed will have a significant effect. As I have said, these requirements might do little good in the case of a man determined from the outset to act fraudulently but this is, I think, most exceptional. The second reason I stress that losses are often caused by negligence is that, as prosecutions for fraud on the part of auctioneers are rare, some people may be tempted to think that there is no need at all for these provisions. It is necessary, therefore, to keep firmly in mind that, as far as the individual client is concerned, it does not matter greatly to him whether his money is lost through negligence or through fraud and the fact that fraud is, fortunately, rare does not excuse us from going as far as we reasonably can to protect the client against loss that may not arise through fraud.

These, then, are the two main provisions of the Bill and they received general support in the other House. There are other provisions in the Bill, mostly of a procedural and technical nature, which were altered fairly extensively while the Bill was going through the other House. The changes made in the procedural provisions were largely, I may say, a result of comments made by the Irish Auctioneers and Estate Agents Association and the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors. These two organisations, with their detailed knowledge of practical problems that arise in the offices of auctioneers and estate agents, were in a position to offer very helpful suggestions and I am glad to acknowledge their assistance in this regard.

As I said at the outset, there is an explanatory memorandum and I think it has sufficient detail to provide those Deputies who are particularly interested with an adequate account of each section. I need hardly say that if further explanation is required of any particular provision, I shall be glad to provide all the assistance I can on the Committee Stage.

In the circumstances I do not think it is necessary for me to delay the House any further at this point so I conclude by commending the Bill to the House.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

I view this Bill with mixed feelings. I understand— and it is implicit in the Minister's statement — that to a large extent it may be regarded as the Bill of the auctioneers' profession in that it is based largely on their suggestions and their desire to see this kind of regulation brought into the control of the affairs of auctioneers.

As the Minister said, the Bill makes two principal changes: one in raising the deposit required from auctioneers from £2,000 to £5,000, and secondly, in providing a statutory requirement regarding the keeping of auctioneers' accounts. The reason I say I view the Bill with mixed feelings is that while I appreciate the arguments in favour of raising the deposit required, I am conscious at the same time that there are many small auctioneers throughout the country who might not find it so very easy to comply either with that requirement or with the accounts requirement in the Bill.

The Minister quite rightly has made it clear that by and large the number of times that there is actual fraud concerned when things go wrong is probably very small indeed, and more often than not if things go wrong, it is a question of this happening through carelessness, or negligence, or mistakes. The spirit in which this Bill is moved by the Minister is that he is not suggesting that there is any widespread problem so far as fraud is concerned, but that he wants to have machinery which will reduce the danger of problems arising because of carelessness, negligence or mistakes. I appreciate that argument, but it would seem to me that it would be preferable if that could be left to the auctioneers' association to put into effect and operate by means of regulations made by themselves, rather than that it should be put into operation as a statutory matter in an Act of Parliament.

There is a very close analogy between the proposals in the Bill and the position obtaining in the solicitors' profession. The Minister will be aware that this matter was dealt with by the solicitors' profession, and dealt with by themselves. The Solicitors Act enabled the profession to make regulations governing matters of practice and matters of accounts. On reading this Bill, it seems to me that the authors have endeavoured to follow fairly closely the pattern established by the Incorporated Law Society when they settled their accounts regulations.

The point I want to make is that I think it more satisfactory that the regulations should be made by the profession itself rather than that it should be imposed on the profession by an Act of Parliament. I do not think there is any sense of grievance amongst solicitors in connection with the accounts regulations which, in some ways, go further than what is proposed here. I do not think that any sense of grievance or imposition exists in the solicitors' profession because those regulations are their own regulations, made by the profession pursuant to the authority given to them to make regulations in the Act dealing with the solicitors' profession.

Here we are taking a different direction. Instead of saying to the auctioneers' association: "We will pass an Act of Parliament which will give you all the authority you require to regulate your own affairs as regards accounts, and the keeping of bank accounts, and so on," we are making it a statutory requirement by legislation. Ultimately the effect may be the same, but I think there is a difference of approach, and the approach made by the Legislature in respect of the auctioneers' profession seems to me to be less desirable than that which was made in relation to the solicitors' profession.

I should like to make it quite clear that I am expressing to a great extent personal views on this because, while I am speaking for my Party, we do not regard this in any sense as a Party measure or a political measure. Other Deputies may have a different approach to the Bill. At this stage I think it right that I should repair an omission of the Minister's and extend my congratulations and possibly those of the House to my colleague, Deputy O.J. Flanagan, on his election as President of the Auctioneers and House Agents Association.

Mr. B. Lenihan

Hear, hear.

Mr. S. Dunne

Hear, hear.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

Deputy Flanagan will no doubt address himself to this Bill and I think it would be reasonable, and to be expected, that his approach to the Bill would be that of the association of which he is president. As I say, my approach is one of accepting the Bill because it is the Bill which I believe the auctioneers' profession has desired but nevertheless I do feel critical about some aspects of it. I do feel some concern for the situation of the small auctioneer who possibly is not a member of the association. Also, I feel fully conscious — as, indeed, the Minister has made it clear that he is conscious — that, if things go wrong, by and large it is more likely to be a question of carelessness than a question of fraud.

There is one other matter which I should like to suggest to the auctioneers' association possibly more than to the Minister. It is on parallel lines to what has been done in the solicitors' profession. It is that the auctioneers' association might consider the establishment of a compensation fund which ultimately might be able to replace the requirement for a bond or a deposit. The Minister is aware that the solicitors' profession regulate their own affairs in that regard and that they have established a compensation fund to which all the members subscribe and which contains a more than adequate guarantee to the public in the event of matters going wrong. I think that that is the right type of approach in a profession. It might, in some way, be an imposition on individual members of a profession but, when it is done by the profession itself, it is a matter that is accepted without any sense of grievance or any sense of resentment. Might I say in that respect that, comparatively recently, the solicitors' profession elected to amend their accounts regulations and to have a requirement of an accountant's certificate in connection with the obtaining of their own practising certificate? This matter was dealt with by the profession by a majority vote at a general meeting. I know it is not entirely relevant to this Bill but, in dealing with vocations or professions of that type, it seems desirable that as much discretion as possible should be vested in the profession themselves, once they are acting on the right lines.

There are just a couple of small matters of detail which I should like to bring to the attention of the Minister so that he can consider them between now and Committee Stage. The first thing that occurs to me in relation to this Bill is that it deals with clients' accounts to a large extent, that is, clients of auctioneers. So far as I can see, nowhere in the Bill is there a definition of "client". If the Minister consults the solicitors' accounts regulations, he will see that, in those regulations, "client" is defined. Everyone knows where he stands. In this Bill, as far as I can see, no definition is given of "client" although "client account" is defined as meaning a current or deposit account in the name of an auctioneer or house agent in the title in which the word "client" appears and which is kept in a bank at a branch in the State.

The second matter I should like to query for further consideration by the Minister before Committee Stage is the requirement in section 5 (1) (b) that an auctioneer or house agent who keeps more than one client account shall keep all such accounts at the same bank unless the District Court, for special reasons, otherwise permits. I do not understand the necessity for that. I can appreciate the argument that if you ensure that an auctioneer will keep all his accounts in the one bank it makes control and supervision easier and that if he has accounts in different banks it just might not be so easy to check on him, if a check is required. We must balance that argument against the one which was rightly used by the Minister that if a man deliberately sets out to defraud. no amount of regulations adopted either by the profession itself or carried into an Act of Parliament will prevent it.

I think our dealing with the profession should be on the basis of trust and confidence, on the assumption that they are not individually going to set out to defraud their clients. It might be of considerable importance from time to time that auctioneers should be permitted to keep their client accounts in different banks. The Minister has as much experience of rural Ireland as I have and possibly more. He knows as well as I do that very often it can be a matter of considerable importance to an auctioneer to feel that he can keep in with the various banks in the area in which he practices and it might suit him very well and might suit his clients very well that he should be permitted to keep his accounts in different banks. Therefore, I would ask the Minister to consider again that requirement which seems to me to be unduly restrictive.

The only other point I want to ask the Minister about is in connection, again, with section 5 which deals with what an auctioneer may do in relation to client money. Putting the matter very generally, it provides that he must put the money in a client account without unnecessary delay and it sets out when he may deal with it otherwise. If the Minister compares these requirements with the requirements set out in the solicitors' account regulations, he will find that, very reasonably and properly, the solicitors' account regulations provide that a solicitor need not lodge the money in a client account where he has been directed by the client to deal with the money otherwise. It seems to me that it might very well be of importance to auctioneers that a similar provision should be written in here.

I have in mind the kind of case which occurs frequently enough where a person is selling one bit of property and buying another. It may be that the deposit is with an auctioneer and that the deposit, in the particular circumstances of the case, is, so to speak, freed either by arrangement between the vendor and purchaser or because the deal has been closed. It may suit the client to be able to say to the auctioneer: "Instead of paying that out to me or instead of putting that into a client account in the bank or instead of vesting that in the trustee security, I want you to use that to put down as a deposit on another bit of property."

In other words, occasions may arise where a client wants to give directions to the auctioneer as to how the deposit will be utilised. I have no doubt that if this were being done on the basis of a regulation being made by the association, this kind of point would arise and could be dealt with by the regulation or by an amendment to the regulation. But, here, when we are laying it down in an Act of Parliament, we have to try to be far more farsighted in the matter because we have to try to visualise the kinds of situations which may arise in future. That is another reason why I prefer to see this kind of thing carried out by regulation of the association than in an Act of Parliament.

It does seem to me that, at any rate, that particular type of discretion, which is not the discretion of the auctioneer but the discretion of the client, should be incorporated into these requirements. I would be glad if the Minister would examine that point also between now and Committee Stage.

Mr. S. Dunne

I do not think the Minister in his opening speech gave any estimate of the number of auctioneers affected by this Bill.

Mr. B. Lenihan

All the auctioneers in the country.

Mr. S. Dunne

Has the Minister any idea of the number?

Mr. B. Lenihan

I thought it was 1,000. I have checked and that is about the number.

Mr. S. Dunne

It seems to me that this Bill is a very good example of how the time of Dáil Éireann can be wasted. This is a Bill which has a limited, albeit an essential, function to perform. I hope that in any changes which may flow in future in the organisation of our legislative processes Bills of this nature which, after all, are very simple and do not call for prolonged examination in Parliament, should be referred to a specialist committee of the House to be dealt with in Committee and later reported back to the House. I merely make that observation at the outset.

Mr. B. Lenihan

There is no specialist stuff here.

Mr. S. Dunne

The point is that it is taking up the time of Dáil Éireann which, I suggest, might be devoted to other more general — I do not say more important — matters. This is an important matter but I am speaking in terms of the specialist nature of the Bill and the manner in which it could be far more expeditiously dealt with. I hope steps will be taken in the future to deal with this type of legislation in the way I suggest. In fact, I feel it is an inevitable development. In these days, Dáil Éireann does not sit long or often enough for us to be spending our time indulging in prolonged parsing of legislation in this fashion, sentence by sentence. It is a matter for specialists and I daresay it should be left to them and the best of luck to them.

However, we have the Bill before us. Again, like Deputy O'Higgins, I am expressing a personal opinion which may not find favour even with other members of my own Party, let alone other Members of the House. As we have the Bill before us, there is not really very much to be said about it. No matter how it may be dragged out, there are only two proposals in it. One is the raising of the deposit from £2,000 to £5,000. That may very well represent a hardship to some of the small rural town type of auctioneers. I do not know if the Minister could give any indication of how these auctioneers are divided. I would imagine that the small auctioneers in the small towns in rural areas would predominate in that figure of 1,000. The deposit means nothing to the big type operators in the cities and large towns. I am quite certain that it will come within their ability to meet it. Does it represent too much for the man who is perhaps in a small way of business and who is an auctioneer on the side in an effort to supplement his income? That is a question which occurs to me but I would accept that the Minister's Department have far more detailed knowledge of this group than I would have and I would be content to accept their judgment in the matter.

I do not hold with Deputy O'Higgins's view that special groups of society — not all groups — should be left to determine their own rules of procedure. That is wrong. If it is to be applied to auctioneers as it has been applied, indeed, to the solicitors' profession, why should it not be applied to every other section of the community to make their own rules within given generalisations? Why should any group have a privileged position in a matter of this kind? I do not think they should.

For that reason, I feel the onus is on the Minister and on the Government to make such regulations as they think fit to ensure that the public good, which must be the main consideration of the Dáil, is protected to the full. Laws are made to that end. Laws are not made and are certainly not deemed to be made to facilitate the interests of any particular section as against the rest of the people.

The solicitors' profession is a very honourable profession and I say nothing in denigration of the profession and the many worthy people who populate it but it has often struck me that it is because of the special relationship which that profession bears to the administration of justice that it has managed to get itself into the position that it is in of making its own rules of behaviour. I am sure nobody will argue that these rules were not overdue. Indeed, if I do not make a mistake, the rules in relation to the solicitors' profession, in their present condition, were brought about by the action of Dáil Éireann. I can be corrected in that if I am wrong. They were brought about because of the need for action by Dáil Éireann.

We are dealing here with a special group. The Bill is a very simple one and I personally do not want to take up a great deal of the time of the House talking about it because I am quite certain that a great deal of the time of the House is about to be taken up. I do not want to stand in the way of those more expert in these matters.

The only point that occurs to me is whether £5,000 would represent a hardship to the kind of man I have described — the person in a small town who might be dependent to some extent upon the business of auctioneering for a living and whose annual business might not be very great. Otherwise, the Bill is excellent. It brings in regulation where regulation is required. In saying that, I do not want to suggest the auctioneers of Ireland are in any way remiss in their duties and obligations to their clients. I do not think we need define what is a client. Everybody knows what an auctioneer's client is. Only the pedant seeks to quarrel with these things, and perhaps the lawyer. It occurs to me that seldom over the years has one heard of or read about any instances of fraud as far as this group are concerned. As a general rule, they are highly regarded in all parts of the country. I hope the Minister will have this legislation put through this morning with the minimum of delay.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I should like to express my appreciation of the manner in which the Bill has been approached by Deputy O'Higgins and also by Deputy Dunne, speaking on behalf of his Party. In my opinion, this is a most desirable and necessary piece of legislation. I cannot subscribe to the observations of Deputy Dunne that the time of the Dáil should not be devoted to the consideration of an important Bill of this kind. It may be desirable to have a Committee of the House deal with legislation of a complex and difficult character, but a Bill of this kind can be more appropriately dealt with in the House where every Deputy has an opportunity of expressing his views.

This legislation concerns a small section of the community, but one that renders to the general public an important and necessary service. The auctioneer and estate agent performs a very necessary function in this country. Indeed, those associated with real estate business throughout the world perform a very necessary service. At present efforts are being made in practically every country to raise the standard of efficiency, to give the general public a better service and more enlightened assistance and guidance in regard to the property market and, what is of particular importance in this country at present, in regard to valuations.

This Bill is a step in the right direction. We can safely assume it is the first instalment of what we hope will be more comprehensive legislation. The Bill has two very important provisions. First, it proposes to increase from £2,000 to £5,000 the deposit which a licensed auctioneer is required to lodge with the High Court and, secondly, it requires an auctioneer to keep clients' money in a special banking account and to keep records of such moneys and his dealings in them. These provisions are not alone necessary but most desirable. Under the existing law, an auctioneer is required to enter into a bond of £2,000 in order to obtain his licence from the Department of Justice. This sum of £2,000 was fixed in 1947. It is now 1967 and there is a considerable difference between the value of the £ today and the value of the £ in 1947. The fact that the deposit has been increased from £2,000 to £5,000 will be no more of a hardship today than the £2,000 bond was in 1947. I feel that the Minister and his Department were most considerate of the smaller auctioneers in rural Ireland and elsewhere for whom it might have been a hardship to increase the bond to £5,000. I do not think this is going to create any difficulty whatever for anybody in the auctioneering business in this country, but it is going to help their clients considerably.

Further, this will be a means of helping to bring into the auctioneering business a type of person more fitted for it. I want to refer briefly to the importance of having in the auctioneering profession the best and most highly qualified people to deal with this specialised work. At present anyone can go into the District Court and obtain an auctioneer's licence. If he enters into the bond for £2,000 and makes his application, he will be granted his licence, no matter what other profession or business he may have in addition. Those of us in the real estate business and public representatives generally have had our attention drawn to the fact that auctioneers' licences can be obtained too freely.

There are cases in which people apply to the District Court and are granted licences for the purpose of selling a single property. An auctioneer's licence was granted to an applicant who then proceeded to sell his own farm by public auction, collected his commission, and that was the end of his business; he did not proceed any further as an auctioneer. Auctioneers' licences have been granted to people who are not fully qualified or capable of giving to the general public the specialised service expected of an auctioneer and valuer.

This has been the cause of a considerable amount of anxiety to the Auctioneers and Estate Agents Association. They have devoted all their energies since 1923, with the very able assistance, guidance and wise counsel of the secretary of that Association, Mr. Michael H. Gray, to genuine efforts to raise the standard of the auctioneers' profession in Ireland. The association which represents auctioneers on both sides of the Border has been giving serious consideration to these matters. They approached the Minister for Justice many times with a view to the passing of legislation to tighten up the granting of auctioneers' licences so that they would not be available to every Tom, Dick and Harry.

A person may not practise the engineering profession unless he has his degrees and qualifications. To practise as a solicitor, one must have the appropriate qualifications. The auctioneers' profession is rendering to the people of this country a service equal to, if not more important in many respects, to that of the legal, engineering or any other profession.

The raising of the bond from £2,000 to £5,000 will be a help to the profession. To become a good auctioneer and valuer takes many years of study and experience. On one occasion when I asked a colleague of very long standing in the auctioneers' profession what I would say in a certain valuation report I was drawing up, the advice he gave me was that it takes many long years of hard work and careful study and examination of property and prices in order to express an opinion as a valuer.

I do not advocate for one moment that the auctioneering profession should be a closed shop, nor is that the aim of the Irish Auctioneers and Estate Agents Association. Far from it. The Minister knows that is not the case. We are anxious to raise the standard of the profession to the highest possible degree. Specialist services are being called for now from those engaged in the real estate business. We of the auctioneering profession can see that very clearly from our association with the Federation of International Real Estate Agents when we visit Paris, Copenhagen, Tokyo, England and elsewhere. This has brought home to us that it is of the utmost importance that we should have the best and most highly qualified people in this profession.

I have already pointed out that in order to obtain a licence to practise as an auctioneer, all one has to do at the moment is to present oneself in court, get an insurance company to cover one's bond to the extent of £2,000, which can be readily available, without any regard by the court to fitness, suitability or qualifications. In most countries there is some regard to suitability, fitness, qualifications and financial standing. In New Zealand, the Real Estate Agents Bill, 1963, has a very important section, section 10. I understand that the secretary of the Irish Auctioneers and Estate Agents Association has already sent the Minister a copy of the New Zealand Bill.

I want to direct the attention of the House to section 10 of that Bill which deals with the granting of licences to persons to act as auctioneers and estate agents. It requires:

The magistrate to require evidence as to character, fitness and financial position.

It is most desirable, before granting a licence to any citizen — may I say that, even though they may have been very few, licences have been granted to some undesirable citizens but the Minister will agree with me that, on the whole, the number has been small; Deputy Dunne referred to that fact — there should be evidence as to character, fitness and financial standing. With a few exceptions, the auctioneering profession here is of a very high standard of integrity and honesty. We are all pleased at that. If there have been cases of dishonest transactions or fraud, those dishonest transactions or fraud have not been based on intent to defraud. They have occurred because licences have been given to people who should never have got them. Fraud has occurred mainly because of a muddling-up of auctioneers' accounts. The provision in this Bill in that regard will help considerably. In future accounts must be kept separate. I was speaking on one occasion to the secretary of the auctioneers' association. I asked him: "Mr. Gray, is it possible that there are auctioneers who do not keep separate accounts and who are sufficiently foolish to put their clients' money with their own money?" The reply I got was that it was amazing the number of auctioneers who, because of lack of thought and lack of a proper sense of responsibility to themselves, their families and the public generally, put their clients' money with their own personal banking accounts.

I cannot understand how any businessman handling clients' money could deposit that money with his own because, the moment he does so, he is facing disaster. Auctioneers and valuers hold their clients' money in trust. They have no claim upon it, no authority to use it, no authority to trade with it. They have no authority beyond holding it in trust. I am sure this extraordinary practice does not occur in the case of firms and I cannot understand how any man could dream of putting his clients' money with his own personal account. The provision in this Bill requires an auctioneer in future to keep clients' money in a special banking account and to keep records of that money. That is very desirable for the auctioneer himself and most desirable from the point of view of the general public. These two main provisions in the Bill meet with the full approval and with the entire agreement of all responsible people engaged in auctioneering and real estate business in this country.

I referred to evidence of character, fitness and financial position of an applicant anxious to start business as an auctioneer. Anyone entering the auctioneering business has to handle tens of thousands of pounds of other people's money and surely it is vitally important that such a person should be in a fit financial position to be the custodian, if only in trust, of other people's money. Licences, however, have been granted to people who were not in a financial position to conduct a satisfactory auctioneering business and the moment large sums fell into their hands by way of deposit they were tempted. We have known of cases in which deposits were made in trust with an auctioneer and the auctioneer traded with one deposit in the hope that another deposit would come in later. That way of conducting business spells disaster.

These provisions will have the effect of raising the standard of the auctioneering profession. The Bill is a step in the right direction and it is one which is welcomed by the profession. In the long run, it is the general public who will benefit from this to the greatest extent. I have already pointed out how easy it is to obtain a licence. One can never have a really good professional body unless those engaged in the profession are dedicated to their business. There are many good auctioneers, dependable and reliable, who have other callings. There are publicans who engage in auctioneering. There are grocers and undertakers who do likewise. People in many walks of life carry on auctioneering as well. But the profession is really constituted of dedicated men who are engaged fulltime in their profession and who carry on no other business or commercial operations. That is the only way in which the best possible service will be given to the general public.

Valuation is an important facet in the auctioneering profession and it is vitally important that no unqualified person should express an opinion on valuation because an ill-considered or ill-founded opinion may involve a client in considerable financial loss. The same is true of the buying and selling market. One does not go to a blacksmith to have a tooth pulled; one does not go to a painter to have shoes and boots repaired; one does not go to an engineer for medical advice: one goes to a doctor. It is the same in the auctioneering business and the buying and selling trade. One goes to the man who is trained, whose business it is to know the extent of the buying and selling market, who has studied the value and sale of land, and who has studied the value and sale of property, private property and business and other premises.

Firms engaged fulltime in the auctioneering business have specialists in their employment, specialists in auctioneering and in the buying and selling of land, house property, rents, and so on. There should be a greater degree of control over the issue of licences to people to act in such a capacity. The Minister will readily agree with me that it is quite wrong to grant a licence to anyone to enter into any profession unless he is qualified for that profession as it may mean substantial financial losses for clients who engage the services of such unqualified persons.

I want to direct attention to how loose our laws are and how firm and rigid the laws are in other countries with regard to entry into the real estate business. I quote section 10 of the New Zealand Real Estate Agents Act, 1963:

Magistrates to require evidence as to character, fitness and financial position—(1) Before granting an application for a licence to carry on business as a real estate agent, the Magistrate shall require the production of sufficient evidence to satisfy him that the character, fitness, and financial position of the applicant are such that he is, in the opinion of the Magistrate, having regard to the interests of the public, a proper person to carry on business as a real estate agent.

(2) Where application for a licence is made by a person carrying on or proposing to carry on business as a real estate agent in partnership with any other person, the Magistrate shall require the production of evidence as to the character, fitness, and financial position of each of the partners.

When in New Zealand a limited company desires to enter into the real estate business, the courts, through the magistrate, will require each director of that company, individually — not one in charge but each of them — to come forward and satisfy the court that he is of excellent character, that he qualifies as to fitness and that his financial position is sound and secure. In the case of directors, all the directors must appear and satisfy the court. In the case of partnership, both or all partners must, in order to comply with the law in New Zealand, satisfy the court as to character, fitness and financial position.

May I ask the Minister who has been extremely reasonable in his attitude to all the approaches that have been made — and may I express the grateful thanks of the auctioneering profession for his lively interest and the manner in which he has received the various deputations and representations put forward by the association — to consider seriously the question of character, fitness and financial position in regard to the granting of auctioneers' licences? I would strongly recommend section 10 of the New Zealand Real Estate Act, 1963 to him. I am sure he already has it because the secretary of the Irish Auctioneers and Estate Agents Association sent him a copy. If our District Courts were to have a qualification, before the granting of a licence, on character, fitness and financial position it would, I think, on this question of the issue of licences to everyone who wants them, most certainly ease the whole situation.

To give the Minister and the House an idea of the serious efforts and attempts that have been made to raise the standard of the auctioneering profession, I want it to go on record that at the present time and for some years past serious efforts have been made to raise the professional status of our auctioneers. I should like to pay very special tribute to the work, the endless energy and tireless long hours of work which a number of past presidents of the association have put into this important work. I refer to Mr. Frank W, Meldon, Mr. Raymond D. Corish of Wexford and Mr. Liam Maher of Roscrea. Nobody will be more pleased, I am sure, than the Minister to hear that, in so far as the Irish Auctioneers and Estate Agents Association are concerned, after 1970 no person will be admitted to the association unless he satisfies the association that he complies fully with all the requirements laid down as proper standards for an auctioneer and estate agent.

The Minister is aware that the College of Commerce in Rathmines and the auctioneers' association are at present conducting courses for young men and, I am happy and glad to say, for ladies who wish to participate. Those courses are very essential for the profession. The association has already issued the examination curriculum and I am sure the Minister has already seen a copy of it. By 1970, those who are seeking admission to the association will require to have a knowledge of book-keeping, estate accounting, law of property, law of contract and tort and local government. They will also require to have a knowledge of the elements of building construction, elementary surveying, the elements of economics and the law of landlord and tenant. In addition, they must have a knowledge of the law of planning and compensation, the principles of valuation, construction and maintenance of buildings, chattel auctions, inventories and furnished lettings.

It is the aim of the association that everyone who is engaged in the auctioneering profession will be qualified in these subjects. To help those who cannot attend the courses at the College of Commerce, correspondence courses are being made available and those who avail of them will certainly, by hard work and careful study, give a very good account of themselves.

In addition to the correspondence courses, a number of seminars are to be organised a few times a year at which very practical, useful and valuable work will be undertaken, with, of course, the full support and co-operation of everybody who is anxious to raise the standard of the profession. The Minister agrees most readily that if there is any profession in Ireland today hard at work putting their own house in order it is the auctioneering profession; if there is any profession which has given an excellent account of its hard endeavours in that direction, it is the auctioneering profession. I have met some students who have participated in these courses and I am glad to say they will be a credit to their profession, to their association and will render an excellent service to the general public of this country. That is what we want.

The Minister will again agree we are living in competitive times, in a new and modern world in which competition is keener than ever before, in which we can even now see that the day of the ordinary unskilled worker is finished in this country. We are living in an age when he requires education, training and qualifications to fit him for his own job of work. So it is that in relation to the real estate and auctioneering business the time has now come — again because of world changes and the keenness of competition, for which education is essential — when these courses are necessary to ensure that we have the best and most highly qualified people in the profession. To those large firms in auctioneering — there are quite a number of them, very progressive — I should like to avail of this opportunity of expressing my thanks for facilitating the younger members of their staffs to participate in these courses. If there are any auctioneering firms who, as yet, do not realise the value of these courses, I hope that in the interests of the younger members of their staffs and of those who are in the auctioneering profession, the members of whose families will follow them in the profession, apart from the home training, although I most readily agree there is nothing better, they too will avail of them. I am sure that by the early 1970s those entering the profession will have a very high degree of qualification.

May I repeat there is no intent whatever to make the profession a closed shop? I want to assure the Minister that what we seek is to attract into the profession the best and most highly qualified personnel. The qualification for these courses — as has been laid down — is that candidates must not be less than 18 years of age on the date of the examination, except in exceptional circumstances. Candidates must satisfy the secretary of the association that their education is leaving certificate standard, with a pass in at least five subjects, including mathematics and English, or an equivalent examination; and, in exceptional circumstances, candidates over the age of 25 years, with a minimum of four years' experience and whose educational qualifications are not at this level, will be given special consideration. Serious efforts of this kind to ensure the high standard of the profession are very necessary and I am sure the Minister and his Department appreciate that, whilst they are doing their part in introducing this desirable and helpful Bill, the auctioneers themselves are doing their part in educating, to the highest possible standards, those entering the profession.

This Bill is one which has been more or less asked for by the association of auctioneers. It is true to say we have not got everything we asked for but the Minister has met us very reasonably and favourably. I hope this is not the end of legislation for auctioneers because I am sure, by the early 1970s, the Minister may see fit — when there is clear evidence of the results of these educational courses — to grant, by legislation, registration to Irish auctioneers.

I wish to thank the Minister for having acted on the representations made to him in respect of the matters involved in section 13 of the Bill. I refer to page 3 of the explanatory memorandum on the Bill which states:

This proposes that the provisions relating to the keeping of clients' moneys in a special client account, and the other provisions connected with those provisions, will not apply to the auctioning in a public market of fruit, vegetables or other primary products (apart from livestock) of agriculture or horticulture.

When representations were made to the Minister on the difficulties of complying with these provisions, particularly where they concerned auctioneers engaged in the fruit and vegetable marketing business, the Minister acted on them and as I have shown, the provisions do not apply to such auctioneers. The Minister therefore met the profession's request reasonably and on behalf of all those engaged in the fruit and vegetable marketing business, I wish to express thanks.

Again, I express wholeheartedly to the Minister the best thanks of the auctioneers' profession for the manner in which he has received us on many occasions. He has spent many long hours with us, and with great patience examined the proposals laid before him. I should like to think that this Bill is the result of these prolonged discussions.

When I speak of co-operation between the auctioneers' profession, other professions and the Department of Justice, I feel I should pay a tribute to the secretary of the auctioneers association of long standing, Mr. Gray, for the manner in which he encouraged such widespread co-operation. He has always been an example of devotion to duty and the results of the co-operation he has encouraged between the auctioneers' profession, other professions in the country and the Department of Justice are to be seen. Particularly, very happy relations exist between the Department of Justice and the auctioneers' profession from which many desirable results have flowed.

I wish again to assure the Minister that we are satisfied with the Bill. We hope it will be the means of raising the standards and improving the services rendered so efficiently heretofore by the auctioneers of this country. We can give a valuable service and we have been giving such a service. I was pleased to hear Deputy Dunne pay a tribute to the standard of integrity of Irish auctioneers. They have been giving a reliable, dependable, honest service.

It may be no harm for me to comment that now that we have town planning legislation in operation, on many occasions local authorities and Government Departments will be seeking the advice of experts in valuation matters. I draw the Minister's attention to the highly qualified service available through the many trained valuers we have in the country and I suggest that the advice of these valuers should be called on by the Government and by local authorities on all occasions. I appreciate that the appointment of valuers is not a function of the Minister for Justice but the Minister may use his good offices with the Minister for Local Government, the Minister for Health, the Minister for Finance and other Ministers who may be concerned, to have the skill of our valuers availed of on all occasions when such expert advice is needed. I may deal with that more fully in another way on another occasion but I should like to point out now that we have a highly specialised corps of valuers in the country whose training has included many years of experience. I suggest that when public bodies need advice in this specialised field, it is to these valuers they will go and not to some other profession.

I again thank the Minister for introducing this measure which I commend to the House. I wish to assure him again that the auctioneers will do their part in no small way to maintain and to improve the efficiency of the service they give to the country and on which so many people depend. We realise it is only the best who should be engaged in this profession and the Bill, together with the steps being taken by the auctioneers themselves, will help to achieve this.

Minister for Justice (Mr. B. Lenihan)

I am glad the House has approached this matter in a constructive way and I should like especially to thank Deputy Flanagan for the remarks he has made about me personally and about the Department. The auctioneers' association at all stages were very helpful and constructive in their suggestions on the principles of the Bill and on some of the complex matters of detail which arose in regard to its drafting. I found the association at all times helpful on the principles of the Bill and on the details, which, as I have said, became complex at one stage.

Deputy Flanagan laid considerable stress on the importance of getting into the profession people of character, fitness and financial stability. This is very necessary because of the important trust capacity in which auctioneers find themselves from time to time. To a greater degree than nearly every other profession or group in the community, they find themselves on many occasions trustees of substantial sums of money, and the lacuna in our legislation heretofore has been that there has not been any criterion or test for those in the profession other than the obtaining of a bond of £2,000, a relatively simple matter these days for most people.

That is why I lay considerable stress on what to me is a key section in the Bill, section 12, which sets out that any person applying for a certificate of qualification, which has to be applied for to the District Court annually, from now on must furnish an accountant's certificate setting out that detailed records have been kept of the various transactions in which he or his firm has been engaged during the 12 months prior to the date of the application; and also setting out that the clients' moneys arising from these transactions have been kept separate from the auctioneer's personal account and, generally, certifying the accounts position of the auctioneer or firm in regard to client transactions.

This precondition which is now inserted here, goes a very long way, I feel, to meeting what Deputy Flanagan referred to as being incorporated in section 10 of the New Zealand Act which requires the person to have a certificate of character and a certificate of his financial position. I feel that much the same thing is done in practice in this particular section of our Bill, because the most practical concern in regard to an auctioneer is the position of his accounts and his financial stability. I do not think a court need concern itself overmuch about character in the sense of going into what might be described as a moral field of investigation. The important thing as far as the District Court is concerned is the financial stability of the man; how has he been behaving in regard to keeping his accounts separately and what is his financial situation in regard to his position as an auctioneer. This, I feel, is the real test and the introduction of this test is an important matter in the Bill.

Like any measure of this sort, the most important aspect is the aspect of prevention rather than the curative aspect. The fact that each year prior to receiving his licence to operate as an auctioneer this provision is there whereby his financial position and the transactions which he has been negotiating and the records in regard to them can be fully reviewed by a district justice prior to granting the licence, I think is the surest guarantee that people in the profession will be, as Deputy Flanagan rightly said, people of financial stability who can be properly entrusted with clients' moneys.

Deputy Flanagan referred also to the question of ultimate registration of the profession. This is a matter on which we can hold fire for the time being. I welcome the fact that the auctioneers' profession is, as the Deputy put it, putting its house in order to a substantial extent and is, in fact, setting a headline to other groups in the community in this respect by providing educational and training facilities for its members to ensure that they are fully qualified and equipped to deal with complex problems that arise in regard to auctioneering. I welcome this and look forward to further progress in this direction. Perhaps in some years' time we can look at the situation again and see what progress has been made by the profession in that regard.

Deputy O'Higgins referred to some matters of detail which are possibly more appropriate to Committee Stage. I shall have them examined between now and Committee Stage.

I referred in my opening remarks to the increase in the bond from £2,000 to £5,000. This, I do not think, will represent any undue burden on the profession. As Deputy Flanagan pointed out, when £2,000 had to be obtained in 1947, it is not unreasonable to require that £5,000 be the bond in 1967 and I hope it will only mean an increase of some few pounds a year in the annual premium. However, I do not lay such great stress on that aspect. The important matter is the furnishing of the accountant's certificate prior to the renewal of licence each year in the District Court. This is the prevention aspect, the aspect intended to prevent people from going in careless directions. As I said, we have had very little evidence of fraud on the part of the auctioneering profession in regard to people who have got into trouble, but there is evidence of carelessness and negligence and people get into trouble in that way. The furnishing of the certificate to the court each year will be a check for the auctioneer himself. It will be a check to prevent him getting into wrong ways and will enable the court to deal with him in a salutary fashion if he is going in a wrong direction by refusing to renew his licence. This may prevent him getting into trouble and, as well as being a source of benefit to the community, will be to the benefit of the auctioneer himself by preserving a very desirable discipline in regard to his handling of moneys.

This brings the auctioneers' profession into line with what has already been done in regard to the solicitors' profession. As has been said, we have dealt with it here by way of statute and in the solicitors' profession, by way of internal regulation among themselves. However, that is because they have had an association of very long standing and the auctioneers' association have only in recent years begun to move, as they themselves say, to put their house in order in this respect. However, the two measures run side by side and the two measures, the Solicitors Act and the regulations made thereunder and this Bill run side by side in ensuring the protection of the community and the protection of the practitioners concerned. They are, I think, the two professions most concerned with the public in regard to trusteeship of moneys.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

When does the Minister think the Bill will become law? A problem will arise now in regard to the bond for the coming year as to whether the bond is to be £2,000 or £5,000. The licences will be granted early in July and the auctioneers would want to know exactly where they stand.

Mr. B. Lenihan

There is no reason why this should not be law before the end of the month. As the Deputy and the House know, it has been through the Seanad, it is now in Second Stage and I propose to have Committee Stage next week. There are one or two points made by Deputy O'Higgins which I would like to look into before then. It could be enacted before the end of the month.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

In order to obtain auctioneers' licences for this year, may we proceed on the basis of a minimum of £5,000, not £2,000?

Mr. B. Lenihan

Yes.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister said in his concluding remarks that this Bill involves the auctioneers' profession and the solicitors' profession marching side by side. I notice one striking difference. The solicitors' profession has provided a guarantee fund. Is there a corresponding provision here?

Mr. B. Lenihan

There is not.

Mr. Dillon

Then I think the Minister's statement that the two professions were marching side by side is a little premature.

Mr. B. Lenihan

It is not fully accurate: I meant in the principle of controlling the professions in regard to this question of handling clients' moneys. I think they are comparable in that respect and certainly the fact that the auctioneers' profession in open court, must, as it were, reveal from now on its full financial situation in regard to clients' transactions is a more rigorous requirement than that pertaining in regard to the solicitors' profession. It is a more rigorous form of check.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 11th April, 1967.