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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 1 Jun 1967

Vol. 228 No. 15

Committee on Finance. - Vote 37—Agriculture (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a sum not exceeding £40,037,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1968, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, including certain Services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain Subsidies and sundry Grants-in-Aid.
—(Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries).

As a city Deputy speaking on this very important Estimate on behalf of a very important section of the community who consume most of the farmers' produce, the housewives of Dublin city, I said last night that it is only fitting that city Deputies should make their voices heard in relation to the commodities that flow from the farmers to the consumers. I said on last year's Estimate that the city housewife was being robbed by the middleman. I mentioned many instances of how this was happening in relation to some of the produce which appears on the Dublin market.

Quite a lot can be said in this House about such things as potatoes, fish, meat, beef and bacon. The unfortunate situation is that the Dublin housewife is called on to pay a price far in excess of what is fair and reasonable. I understand that the farmers get their fair return. I believe they have problems, as we all have, but some serious consideration must be given to the consumer. For potatoes, I am led to believe the farmer receives between £16 and £20 per ton. For that price, the farmer has to till the land, buy the fertilisers, take care of the crop and dig it up again.

Twenty pounds a ton for potatoes? Come up to Monaghan and give it to us and you will get a royal welcome. We will roll out the red carpet.

That makes the case far more serious—if the farmers are not getting £16 to £20 per ton. Would £12 to £14 be a fair estimate of what they are getting? For these potatoes, for which the producer gets £12 to £14 per ton, the housewife pays at the rate of £45 per ton. She picks up her potatoes and they have tears in their eyes for the poor housewife who has paid £45 a ton for them. I have great sympathy for the man who produces them for £14 to £16 per ton, but is there not something wrong somewhere in the line between producer and consumer? I ask the Minister to pay special attention to this and to ensure that some of the rings or suspect groups in operation in this city are not allowed to continue a situation which means that housewives in this city cannot get their potatoes at a reasonable price. Housewives here are the victims of groups, rings, cartels or whatever one might call them. They have their hands in her purse from one end of the week to the other.

This Department deals with Fisheries. I do not know where one would get fresh fish in the perimeter areas of this city. The only fresh fish visible in those areas is goldfish, if one is lucky to have them. Here again, the marketing procedure, the availability of the produce, is lacking, though it is said there is a vast volume of fish around our shores and though we seek to assist fishermen in the matter of new and better boats.

Would that not arise on another Estimate?

Fisheries?

It is a fishy one but we will get to it on the other Estimate. I take it that the beef——

Has four legs—yes.

Deputies spoke here during the week of people giving cattle away for nothing—that the bottom had fallen out of the market. Still, the housewife in this city pays the same price for her piece of beef. There again there is some racket when cattle are being given away for nothing and the housewife pays the highest possible price for her pound of beef. The same applies to bacon. The housewife in this city suspects at the moment that she is getting inferior quality bacon.

So she is.

If that is so, I suggest that standards be applied to the sale of the various agricultural produce. It may be difficult but standards should be spelled out in no uncertain terms so that housewives will not be victimised by people who are far removed from the source of production. When I was a little fellow, I was told about the goose that laid the golden eggs. It seems that now hens are laying them, if one considers the price of eggs, if they are obtainable.

Only Haughey hens lay golden eggs.

I ask the Minister to institute an inquiry into the marketing of all farmers' produce to ensure that standards are observed right through the line of supply so that the Dublin housewife will get foodstuffs at reasonable and fair prices. After all, the great bulk of the subsidies payable to agriculture comes from the families who live in Dublin. A little girl goes to work and from the time she begins to earn £6 a week, she pays income tax, one of the forms of raising the money for paying the subsidies. Though I have no desire to limit in any way aids to farmers, providing they are used in a proper manner, the Government should see to it that the housewives in this city get better value for their money in the matter of foodstuffs. Dublin housewives have no dish-washers or potato peelers and I do not see why they should be forced to pay high prices for foodstuffs whose production they have helped to subsidise.

Recently we had a produce strike. This strike by a section of the farming community deprived the housewives and little children of this city of the necessaries of life. This diabolical situation, whereby foodstuffs were turned back from the city and housewives and little children deprived of them, created a most serious situation, and I impress on the Minister and the Government the need to ensure that every means at their disposal are used to provide a free flow of necessary foodstuffs at all times. That strike hurt no one but the housewives and little children of this city. Coming to the end of that week, high prices were charged for the few vegetables and other produce that were available and by then the money was exhausted and the children had to do without these foodstuffs. This situation was forced on them by an irresponsible band who do not think along those lines. Whatever about the other actions of these people, that was a diabolical one and I again impress on the Minister the necessity to ensure that supplies of foodstuffs reach this city freely.

That was but a repetition of history. It happened in this nation before during the Famine when foodstuffs were shipped out of the country while our people were starving. So long as we have the disciples of those who caused the Famine dictating to decent Irish farmers, history will repeat itself. We have also a new outlook on Christian doctrine. If an attempt were made at that time to supply the housewives and children of this city, if a farmer thought he was fulfilling his obligations by getting a supply through to them, he found himself up against the threat that it would be rammed down his throat. There we had a new situation with new individuals carrying out the doctrine of those who caused the Famine.

It is up to the Dublin Deputies to protect the people they represent and ensure they get a fair crack of the whip, that whatever is available will be made freely available to them, and that no obstacle will be placed by any group or organisation in the way of that supply. The items I am concerned about are those which provide the main meal of the table. The marketing arrangements are not suited to dealing with the situation. We should have immediately proper marketing arrangements so that the essential foodstuffs for the citizens of this city will not fall into the hands of middlemen, bandits and others who will hoard them until such time as prices rise and then extract as much as they can from the small purse of the Dublin housewife.

I have listened to the discussion in relation to the dispute with the farmers. All I can say is that in the working class area I represent—Crumlin, Drimnagh, Walkinstown and Inchicore—few of the main breadwinners in the homes in that area have a yearly income sufficient to pay the rates of the defaulters we read about in the "no rates" campaign. This is a serious situation. It comes back to the consumers. Every effort should be made by the Government to establish proper marketing arrangements. We are prepared to pay a reasonable price for food, but the rate we were asked to pay in the past was far too high. The Government should also ensure there will be a fair supply by farmers willing and able to supply this city with the necessaries of life.

I am almost glad, in the light of the first matter to which I want to refer today, that the Deputies of Dáil Éireann have gone home. I wish I could believe that the statement appearing on the front page of the Irish Times today is untrue, but I am afraid it is inescapable. It refers to a circular signed by Mr. J.C. Nagle, Secretary of the Department of Agriculture, issued to officials concerned with the administration of grants under the Farm Buildings Scheme, the Land Project section, the bovine TB eradication scheme and the potato officer. The circular was not forwarded to agricultural instructors employed by county committees of agriculture. The circular stated:

If you are informed by any milk supplier that he is being intimidated in any way in connection with the supplying of his milk to his creamery, you should obtain full details of the case from him, including details of the alternative transport facilities proposed, and notify the Department immediately by telephone... The matter should be reported to any of the following officers... If it is possible to do so without delaying your report you should inform the local gardaí who may, perhaps, be able to supply some further information. If that is not possible you should in any event contact the gardaí after reporting by telephone to the Department.

A written report should be furnished immediately through your superior officer and this should be sent by him without delay to the Department (Section 3).

I wonder does the Minister realise the road on which he has embarked? I know when I was Minister for Agriculture, it was a sacrosanct principle of the administration of the Department that officers of the Department who entered on the holdings of suppliers did not act for the purpose of detecting any breach of regulations. We had pushed that to the extreme situation that, even where an officer of the Department detected a breach by a farmer of any departmental scheme for which he was not personally responsible, it was not his duty to report it. No technical officer of the Department and no advisory officer of the Department was expected, much less required, to constitute himself an agent either of the Garda or any other law enforcing agency in this country, including the Department itself.

I read to the House this morning the tragic, if not ludicrous, words employed by Deputy Smith at Navan in 1947 when he was Minister for Agriculture about breaking down the farmers' fences and forcing open their gates. That situation arose, of course, in connection with compulsory tillage. I remember the relief that was expressed all over the country when for that philosophy was substituted a general rule that no officer of the Department would enter on any man's holding until he was invited and the revolution in the relationship between the Department of Agriculture and the agricultural community as a whole which was created by that new departure. I cannot understand how the Department of Agriculture that I knew could conceivably be associated with the kind of circular for which the present Minister has made them responsible.

If I might say something, Sir, the circular was intended so that people who produce milk would be allowed to have it sent to the creamery. Surely the Deputy appreciates the right and entitlement of any man to earn a living in his own fashion without joining an association or any other group of people? This is one of the tremendous heritages of farming in this country—the farmers' independence and the right not to be coerced by anyone into joining an association with any group or any individual against their wishes.

I have sufficient sentiment left in me for the Department over which I presided during the happiest days of my life to wish to hear it acquitted of what appears to me to be a horrible departure from its ordinary practice. If this circular confined itself to saying: "If any farmer finds difficulty in getting his milk delivered to his creamery, let the officer of the Department co-operate in arranging an alternative method of delivery, and, if it is beyond his capacity to do so, let him ring the Dairy Produce Division of the Department and invoke their aid," all this I could understand.

This is quite so, and the opening words of that letter were, "If you are informed", which implies that people would come and complain.

I want to believe that what the Parliamentary Secretary says is true.

This is true. This is the statement.

I want to believe the Parliamentary Secretary but the final paragraph of the quotation which I have already given, taken from the Irish Times of Thursday, June 1st, 1967, ends by saying:

If it is possible to do so without delaying your report you should inform the local gardai who may, perhaps, be able to supply some further information. If that is not possible you should in any event contact the gardaí after reporting by telephone to the Department.

A written report should also be furnished immediately through your superior officer and this should be sent by him without delay to the Department (Section 3).

The Deputy ignores with complete abandon the earlier portion of the letter which reads as follows:

If you are informed by any milk supplier that he is being intimidated in any way in connection with the supplying of his milk to his creamery, you should obtain full details of the case from him, ...

I have listened to the Parliamentary Secretary. I could quite understand an officer of the Department being told that, if he finds a farmer in difficulties and he alleges that he cannot get his milk to his customary branch because somebody is intimidating him, he should ring the Department and they will help him to get his milk delivered. This is not what this circular implies. This circular says: "Set the machinery of the law in motion on the information which you have obtained". That is not a function of an officer of the Department of Agriculture. If the person believes himself to be intimidated or otherwise to have his lawful rights trepassed upon he has the right to go to the local Garda station and make such report as he thinks proper but I warn the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary that if the correct relationship is to obtain between the officers of the Department of Agriculture and the individual farmers down the country they are not to be converted into an information service for the Garda or to be turned into a supplementary service of the Garda Síochána.

That is not the intention or never was the intention of the Department, and the Deputy is fully aware that the Minister who is responsible to this House and to the nation as a whole for agriculture is more than willing and finds it his duty to protect the interests of the most lowly and the loneliest and the weakest person in the State as well as any other section.

I want to believe that the statement in extenuation that the Parliamentary Secretary makes is true. I am sorry to tell the Parliamentary Secretary that as the circular is reproduced here in this newspaper, it cannot bear the construction he seeks to put upon it. If it is incorrectly reproduced here, I would be very glad to have a copy of the circular between now and the resumption of this debate which will presumably take place on next Wednesday or Thursday and, rather than pursue a line of criticism which may be based on inaccurate information—and the only information available is what is published in the newspaper—I will depart from the topic if I may assume that a copy of the circular will be made available to me over the weekend.

A copy of the circular will be made available to the Deputy.

There is a second remarkable and, to my mind, shattering piece of news in today's paper, to which I refer again. It appears under the headings "The Livestock Trade", "Fall in Prices is Disastrous". It is as follows:

There is bewilderment among cattle producers at present. Everybody, including the Department of Agriculture and I, have told them that the right time to sell cattle was in the first half of the year. A favourable winter made this possible and now they are faced with the worst May trade in memory.

At any time, a farmer can expect that weight gains will counterbalance the fall in price per cwt. during the months of May and June and even up to mid July. This year the price per cwt. has fallen so fast that bullocks are losing anything from 10s. to £3 a head for a month's grazing.

This week last year, farmers were complaining about a bad trade, but they were getting 20s. a cwt. more for fat bullocks then, and 22s. 6d. a cwt. more for fat heifers. Supplies coming into the Dublin market were bigger then, and we had no subsidy from Britain.

On the other hand we did have buying for the Continent, and in fact at this particular period we were in the middle of the British seamen's strike. Now the only people buying cattle are factory operators. They claim that the new grading system is ruining the business, but there is no official statement from the Government on the subject.

Listen to this—I continue my quotation——

No-one can say this time that the drop in prices is due to a bad trade in Britain, because, in fact, there is a scarcity of beef there and prices are rising rapidly. Many markets quoted live weight prices up by 10s. a cwt. yesterday, and wholesale prices for carcase beef were up 1d to 1½d a lb.

I have heard a great deal of talk in the course of this debate about the mind and feelings of the farmers in rural Ireland and about the resentment begotten by the dispute with the NFA and the treatment the farmers have had at the hands of the Minister for Agriculture. I have heard the case put with unparalleled eloquence, force and logic by Deputy T.F. O'Higgins last night when he pointed out how gravely wrong it was to break the law but how heavy was the responsibility of the man, not to speak of the Minister, who provoked his neighbour into breaking the law. But, bearing all those things in mind, I am thinking of my own neighbours, small farmers, men who are farming ten, 20, 30 and up to 40 acres of land. They do resent being spoken of with contempt; they do resent the feeling that they are almost pariahs in their own country.

In all my long contact with country people—and I have lived amongst them and served them from behind my counter 40 years and I have represented them in County Monaghan for 30 years and in Donegal before that for five years—I never remember a time in which an atmosphere of such utter despair descended on the small farmer as has descended now and the reason is the collapse in the price of store cattle.

The plain truth is that even the Deputies representative of the agricultural interest in the south-east of Ireland and the midlands of Ireland do not understand the position of the really small farmer, the sheet anchor of whose life is store cattle. There has been a great deal of rubbish talked by pseudo-experts that rearing store cattle was the least economic activity a farmer could engage in. That is all eyewash and cod. I have lived all my life amongst small farmers who have reared doctors and priests and bishops and engineers and accountants on farms of 20 to 40 acres which were devoted entirely to the breeding and rearing of store cattle. That is why I was so happy about the 1948 agreement, that it was into their pockets that the agreement poured the gold, derived from their store cattle that were firmly linked to the guaranteed prices obtainable by British farmers for their cattle in Great Britain. All the benefit flowed back to the small farmer to the point that the big graziers and other wealthy farmers complained that stores were becoming too dear in Ireland. They could be no longer fed profitably on the fat lands of Meath, Kildare, Westmeath or in the stalls of the well-to-do farmers in the better-off counties. But they had alternatives to which to turn. They had tillage, grain, crops, and diversification of a hundred kinds available to them if that form of trade did not yield a profit. The small farmer had not got that. Without the young cattle he was utterly destroyed. From 1948 to 1963 there were ups and downs but steadily young cattle paid for their keep and left a profit sufficient to pay the rates, to pay the bills and even to pay for a week by the sea.

Then came catastrophe. I remember saying last July 12 months: "You are on the eve of the greatest catastrophe that has ever struck the congested areas of this country." Nobody believed me then, but by autumn the catastrophe had come. I want to warn the House that there is spreading now over the congested areas an atmosphere which if it is allowed to continue for another year will be absolutly irreversible. I have stood beside a boy on a platform at Boyle station who told me he was the last son on a 45-acre holding. He was going to Birmingham because he would not take a present of the place. That derives from the fact, admittedly, that wages in the English industrial cities are substantial, but what has finally spread this impenetrable pall of gloom is the fact that a small farmer is going out with young cattle and he cannot find anyone to ask him where he is going. It is not a question of taking a lower price. It is a question of being unable to sell. I know this from personal experience. I went out a fortnight ago to buy a Friesian bull calf and I paid £8 for the calf; eighteen months ago it would have cost me £80. Farmers will tell you that in the south west of the country calves are selling for substantially less.

Farmers getting 2d. a gallon extra on their milk feel in some measure compensated for the loss. The man on the small holding in Monaghan, Cavan, Donegal, Sligo, Mayo and Galway has no corresponding compensation. I know they have the creamery in Lough Egish, the creamery in Monaghan, and the creameries all over County Cavan, and in so far as creamery facilities are available to the farmers in those counties the burden they have to bear is far less than that borne by those in Leitrim, North Roscommon, Mayo, Sligo and Donegal.

Frankly, I cannot fully understand what has happened. I believe when Deputy Haughey, the then Minister for Agriculture, came home with the trade agreement he thought he had achieved something. When he came home and told the people he expected this trade agreement to increase the price of store cattle by £6 or £7 a head. I think he believed it. I think he believed that, in spite of the advice he got from his own experts, because I do not believe anybody in the Department of Agriculture believed it. I know them too well, their skill and experience and their anxiety to give the Minister their honest advice whether it is accepted or not.

I have been thinking over and wondering what actually happened, and I am forced to the inescapable conclusion that it was this accursed heifer scheme. We made the ghastly mistake, without any realistic calculation or without giving due weight to the experienced advisers in the Department of Agriculture, of allowing the so-called technocrats, the boys who formulate the Programmes for Economic Expansion and the programmes for this and that, to tell us that the thing was to increase the number of cattle. I remember saying that if these figures were to be realised every cow would have to start farrowing, but they did not start farrowing. What happened was that the increase that took place had two effects: (1) having taken 40 years to eliminate the scrub bull, we brought back in two years the scrub heifer; and (2) we have done what I did not believe it was possible for human folly to do: because we did not organise a market related to our intended output, we have got an artificial surplus. What nobody seems to have thought of is: if you create a surplus of a commodity like livestock, then the lowest price payable for the first surplus beast will control the price of the entire livestock output of the country.

I remember saying in this House: "You are boasting of unlimited access for store cattle to the British market." When were we ever restricted before except by one consideration, the readiness of the British farmer to buy our store cattle? Why do you want unlimited access to the British market for our cattle when there is no one to buy them? Are you going to race them around Aintree or Ascot?"

That is the situation we have created. We have created an absolute surplus and it is the price available in Great Britain for that surplus that tends to control the whole price level of the store cattle trade in this country, with the consequent ruin of the most vulnerable section of our community. It appals me that over the next 20 years there is the prospect of the disappearance of the entire population of the congested areas. Do I exaggerate when I say that Michael Davitt must be turning in his grave. The people were hanging on desperately with bare hands and in their bare feet to the holding their fathers had passed down to them, and it took, not a British Government, not a foreign power, but an Irish Government to create a situation in which they cannot survive anymore. That is a dreadful indictment to have to make of a Government chosen by the Irish people.

Depopulation of rural areas started in 1926.

I sympathise with the Parliamentary Secretary. I do not believe he wants this ruin. I sympathise with his humiliation. I remember his father, whose good health I rejoiced to hear about, waxing very eloquent when I was Minister for Agriculture about the wicked things I was doing to the farmer. I feel sure he shares my anxiety now.

Progress reported: Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 7th June, 1967.
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