Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 16 Nov 1967

Vol. 231 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote 41—Transport and Power (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration—(Deputy Cosgrave).

Minister for Transport and Power (Mr. Childers)

When speaking last night, I was dealing with a number of miscellaneous matters not related directly to any State company. Deputy Barrett raised the question of the possibility of oil spillage at Whiddy. We have been in constant contact with the Gulf Oil Company and also had the experience of the Torrey Canyon disaster: we sent officials of the Department to Cornwall to observe effects there and we have had talks with experts in this field. Every step will be taken by the Gulf Oil Company to prevent the undesirable effects of oil spillage.

For example, no flexible hose will be used. Instead, solid steel apparatus will be used, which is a considerable technical advance. Overall automatic control of the pumping will be effected by a skilled operator in a control tower. There will be a boom available to encircle completely any accidental spillage and there will be also permanently established at Whiddy four tugs with a high-power detergent operating apparatus. The cost of all this will be borne by the Gulf Oil Corporation. I wanted to make it clear that we are examining the matter in very great detail and to tell the House that the Gulf Oil Company are co-operating fully with the Department.

Deputy Barrett raised the question of liner traffic at Cork. Of course, the future of liner traffic at Cobh in this respect depends entirely on the decisions of the shipping companies. As the Deputy knows, the Cunard Line decided to sell all their liners except the Queen Elizabeth and this will probably mean a reduction in calls at Cork. The Holland-America Line, as far as I know, will maintain their calls at Cork. The future of regular passenger liner services across the Atlantic is impossible to define at the moment. One hears plans for very inexpensive liner services based on self-service cafeteria and bars. One hears many tentative plans for a type of traffic which declined during one period and appeared to be stabilised again but it would be difficult to hazard a guess of what lies in the future. Perhaps in such days as these, when air traffic is so frequent, many people may wish to relax during sea journeys. However, it would be impossible for me to say what the future holds.

Deputy Barrett asked a question in relation to the possibility of a ferry terminal at Cobh. It was found impossible to get adequate space at Cobh but the B & I decided to integrate their Cork operations, for economic reasons, in a new terminal at Tivoli and it is expected the ferry will carry cars, passengers, containers and livestock in the most economic fashion. B & I plan to run a new car ferry ship, which will also have passenger facilities, between Cork and Swansea and there will be road services between Swansea and London. The Swansea port authorities are preparing the port terminal. The distance by road will be a great deal shorter and the road facilities better than on the longer route to Fishguard.

There were vague comments on the position of Irish Shipping. I indicated in the course of my opening statement that Irish Shipping faced very low freight rates at different periods, followed by slight rises. As a shipping company, they carry the maximum Irish freight that is possible and economic. For example, they recently made a very satisfactory contract to carry fertilisers for an Irish company but they must also engage in tramp operations as in the case of other cargo liner companies. The shipping service has been subject to examination in the matters of management and cost and I think we can have every confidence that Irish Shipping are meeting the challenges which have to be faced by all cargo liner companies. I have every confidence in the company and the board. Repairs to Irish Shipping liners are carried out in Ireland, when possible, as I have told Deputies in reply to Parliamentary Questions.

Deputies referred to matters concerning aviation and one Deputy questioned the desirability of proposed hotel development near Dublin Airport. I consider this as being absolutely essential in the future, having regard to the expansion in air travel at Dublin Airport. Dublin Airport is situated close to a main arterial road and market research makes it quite clear that we need this hotel development in the area. I have no fear whatever that it will result in unfair competition with existing Dublin hotels.

Deputy Mullen and others asked for information about the leasing of aircraft by Aer Lingus and Aerlínte. Air transport in this country is subject to steep peaks and steep valleys. As I have stated on previous occasions, part of the story of Aer Lingus is the success achieved in spite of having a very low average fare paid by passengers on their European routes, particularly the British ones, and in spite of the fact that the transatlantic route is the shortest intercontinental portion of any major air carrier. There is a greater valley period during the winter than is the case with other intercontinental air carriers. The two Irish companies have to achieve a balance in their accounts in spite of these two adverse factors and it is very good business if Aerlínte can succeed in leasing aircraft during valley periods. The Irish aircraft companies have been pioneering in this business at times when they have no use for their aircraft. The directors of the board are quite satisfied that the financial return is worthwhile. I do not need to add that the terms of the leasing are naturally highly confidential.

Mr. James Tully

Is the Minister prepared to say if the money received in this way represents a very high proportion of the companies' income?

Mr. Childers

No. The operational profit made from leasing is only an element in the total profit made.

Mr. James Tully

That is a remarkable statement because the manager of Aerlínte made an entirely contrary statement some months ago.

Mr. Childers

He said it is an element.

Mr. Mullen

How much of an element?

Mr. Childers

I could not say right off but it is an element in the profit made by the air companies.

Another Deputy asked the question whether the lenders of money to the airline could ever secure control of the airline. The air companies borrow in the open market and pay interest and it does not give the lenders any ownership whatever of the airline. I do not think I need to give the figures in detail as they have already been given in the notes but the proportion of State capital in the case of the air companies to the amount they have borrowed from commercial sources is still so large that no one need have any doubt on this score even if, in fact, the money borrowed from abroad constituted equity capital, giving the lenders some rights at shareholders' meetings but, in fact, none of it is equity capital. So, no one need have any doubt about the independence of the air companies in so far as their foreign lenders are concerned.

Mr. James Tully

The ratio will be changed completely by 1971 when, in fact, the greater part of the capital will be obtained from other sources.

Mr. Childers

There, again, that would be a matter for Government decision should there be any chance of foreign control.

Mr. James Tully

It has already been taken.

Mr. Childers

It has not been necessary to make a decision yet.

Mr. James Tully

The Minister has already published the fact that he is not going to finance air services to the same extent he has been doing.

Mr. Childers

No. What I said was that in examining the whole position, I hoped that whatever capital was required by the air companies would be remunerated. That does not preclude the air companies from remunerating State capital. If the Deputy looks at my speeches he will see that they will have to remunerate their capital in one form or another in future unless circumstances change completely and dramatically.

Mr. James Tully

The Minister for Finance made a statement earlier this year which does not hold with that. However, this is not the time. I will take it up by way of question with the Minister.

Mr. Childers

The position at the moment is that it is not necessary for the State to finance capital to the air companies in the near future. That is what the Minister for Finance referred to.

Mr. James Tully

The air companies have been informed that in future they must find their capital other than from the State.

Mr. Childers

That is so.

Mr. James Tully

Seventeen million pounds.

Mr. Childers

That is so but that position, again, could change if it was essential.

Mr. James Tully

Oh, yes.

Mr. Childers

A question was asked about capital for the Jumbo Jets. The two Jumbo Jets will cost £20 million and the company will provide £5 million for deprecation fund for the aircraft after delivery in 1971.

Deputy T. O'Donnell asked whether it was essential to provide facilities for Jumbo Jets in Dublin and Shannon. The answer is, we are quite satisfied that it is essential to provide these facilities.

The question was asked whether the decision of the air company to standardise on Boeing planes was a wise one in view of the possible difficulty of disposing of the Viscount and BAC One-Eleven fleet. As far as I know, there will not be any difficulty in disposing of these planes unless market conditions should change dramatically.

Deputy T. O'Donnell also asked in regard to Shannon Repair Services now being taken over by Aer Lingus, whether the management staff looked for business, as he had heard rumours that they did not. As far as I know, every effort is being made by Aer Lingus to provide business for this company.

The Deputy asked about the possibility of a Shannon/Birmingham air service. One of the difficulties is that Birmingham is less than 80 miles from Manchester and there is a scheduled service from Dublin to Manchester, started in 1965 by Aer Lingus, and the company was concentrating on making this service a viable operation. At the moment it is not considered economic to run this service. The matter will be kept under review.

Deputy Briscoe asked a question about the desirability of having a service charge at the self-service snack counter at Dublin Airport. I do not particularly like the idea. It is true that the cost of what is provided there is moderate. I do not particularly like the principle. I will take it up with the company.

Mr. Mullen

If the Minister takes the matter up and decides to take out the service charge, will he ensure that the workers are sufficiently compensated? The service charge is for staff?

Mr. Briscoe

It is self-service.

Mr. James Tully

Coffee does not make itself, or did the Deputy not know?

Mr. Childers

We generally manage to work things out at the airport, as the Deputy knows.

Mr. Mullen

There is no doubt about that.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister.

Mr. Childers

Deputy P. O'Donnell, unlike most of his colleagues, seems to have some fundamental criticism about Bord Fáilte. As I indicated yesterday, I do not think I can do anything about this. There was a great deal of mostly useful, constructive criticism by other Deputies of his Party and there was no suggestion that Bord Fáilte was not operating on a sound basis, that is to say, a basis which reflected the results of intelligent market research. So, I do not think I need to go into the observations made by Deputy P. O'Donnell. I see no point in doing so. I indicated yesterday that if there had been some kind of committee.

Mr. Mullen

It happened. in the Opposition Party—which there practically never is—which could make some fundamental decisions as to what they wanted specifically to attack in regard to the operation of the State companies and if that had been included, I would take it seriously but Deputy O'Donnell's suggestion was that the whole of the Central Statistics Office calculations on the proportion of genuine tourists and of those returning to their families was questionable and, therefore, he implied that the whole of the Bord Fáilte promotional work was of a doubtful character. I do not propose to go into that because his remarks would have to be supplemented by a great many others in the Opposition for me to take up the time of the House with comments of that description.

I stated yesterday that the vast majority of appointments to staffs of State companies were filled as a result of advertisements. I made that clear. I also stated that there was a code of conduct for State companies, contrary to Deputy Byrne's suggestion that there would appear to be complete indifference to the responsibility of a State company both to the Oireachtas and to the Minister. I made that clear. But, in regard to this accusation that there was some political influence in the appointment of the North American manager by Bord Fáilte, I utterly and completely deny it. I have permitted or encouraged no political influence whatever in these appointments since I have been in charge of these State companies. The idea that a man of the eminence of the person appointed would require some kind of political label in order to secure his appointment is just too ridiculous for words. Everybody who knows the man knows that it could not be true. It is a slander on both Bord Fáilte, which consists of people who have received the very highest commendation by the Members of this House, and on the Director-General, to suggest that I, or any other Minister, could call up Mr. Brendan O'Regan and say to him: "You will appoint Mr. So-and-So because he is a member of Taca". The idea is just ludicrous.

Mr. Childers

The Deputy will have to take my word of honour that it did not happen.

Mr. Mullen

How many applicants were there?

Mr. Childers

My word of honour is accepted in the Dáil. Whatever weakness I have as a politician, when I give my word of honour that no such thing happened, it is accepted in the Dáil. Is the Deputy prepared to accept my word of honour?

Mr. Mullen

It is not the Minister's word I question, but I should like an explanation as to how the appointment was made. How many applicants were there for the post? Why was there a mystery? There is nothing personal in this.

Mr. Childers

There are exceptional occasions in regard to appointments at absolutely top level. I do not think there would be many such occasions on which it is not considered desirable to advertise. That is the case partly because this is a very small country and partly because one may want someone so eminent and so well known that the mere fact of that person applying through a public advertisement might cause difficulties for himself and for others. Everybody who has experience of the business world knows what I mean. This applies particularly, I would say, in the world of promotion in public relations. I would very much deprecate any action by any State company following the example of this particular appointment of making many in the same way. State companies are not all obliged by the Dáil, as is CIE, to advertise all their positions and I would regard it as most undesirable should there suddenly be a flow of appointments not made through public advertisement.

Mr. James Tully

Hear, hear.

Mr. Childers

At the same time, I must admit, having been in business and concerned with sales, particularly speciality sales, whenever the Government were out of Office, that I can conceive of circumstances, particularly in the case of Bord Fáilte, in which, in relation to this kind of appointment, it is occasionally desirable, without any reflection on the Board's integrity, to make an appointment in the way this appointment was made.

Mr. Mullen

Were there not other men available?

Mr. Childers

Since this unfortunate individual has been the subject of comment in the Dáil, I shall have to go further and say very definitely that, had some second-rate individual been appointed, of whom nobody had heard, then Bord Fáilte would, I think, be on the mat in the Dáil. Had some rather second-rate person been appointed, then one could presumably say that there must be something peculiar about the appointment. But the eminence of the individual takes away, I think, any suggestion that there was corruption on the part of the Board. As I said, I will not dictate to the boards how far they should depart from the principle of advertising every position. I will leave that to their commonsense. The practice up to now, taken as a whole, shows that where there have been exceptions they have been unusual and have been, no doubt, rightly conceived. If the present practice of advertising positions, and not advertising positions when the occasion warrants, continues in roughly the same proportions, I shall have no objection.

Mr. Mullen

Is the Minister aware of the reply I got to my inquiry from Bord Fáilte in relation to this matter?

Mr. Childers

I have not seen the reply, but I have made the position quite clear.

Mr. Mullen

I am not——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Mullen may not carry on this cross-examination. The Minister is entitled to conclude without interruption.

Mr. Mullen

I am not satisfied with the explanation.

Mr. Childers

The Deputy and I will never agree. The Deputy must admit I have made a most responsible statement as to the general desirability of State companies advertising their positions. I have also indicated exceptions in that regard and I have asked State companies to maintain the balance in the correct way.

Mr. Mullen

How was this man's predecessor selected? It was not the way the Minister says.

Mr. Childers

Deputy Treacy made various observations about the position in regard to hotels. I think he exaggerated when he said that the great majority of people who come here on holidays are apparently people of very modest incomes. From the market research done by Bord Fáilte, that is not true; they consist of people of a variety of incomes.

Deputy Treacy also referred, quite rightly, to the need to ensure that encouragement was given to the provision of proper conditions for staff. Bord Fáilte some years ago gave grants for staff accommodation. I hope hotel proprietors all over the country will take advantage of these grants because I am perfectly certain they will get better productivity, efficiency and courtesy from a contented staff. Indeed, conditions are improving so far as staff are concerned, partly because of the need for staff and the fact that they cannot be so easily attracted to the hotel trade and partly because the general attitude towards conditions for staff in the hotel world has been improving so far as managers and directors thereof are concerned.

Deputy Treacy discussed whether or not the pattern of hotel development was proceeding in the right way. As the Deputy knows, the motoring tourist has altered the picture considerably and Bord Fáilte have to take account of this. There were various criticisms made of overcharging in hotels by Deputy Treacy, Deputy Tully and Deputy P. O'Donnell. Complaints of overcharging, if made to Bord Fáilte, are fully investigated; if proved, refunds are insisted upon. I have already made that clear. It is very unlikely that a hotel would survive for long if it got a bad reputation for overcharging. There is now more competition between hotels and guesthouses. The growth in guesthouse accommodation, very good accommodation, and supplementary accommodation is already providing competition and I do not think Deputies need fear that hotel prices could go up to such an extent through a monopoly position that we would have to examine into them. It is a highly competitive business. Hotels must publish their charges in the hotel guide and tourists are encouraged to consult the guide. The prices in the high season are indicated as well as the prices throughout the rest of the year.

I repeat that I rely to a considerable extent on the Financial Times analysis of holiday costs. As far as I know, this is a journal with a very high reputation and I do not believe it would publish a list of comparative costs of a food basket, an evening out, bed and breakfast in a non-A class hotel in 20 countries and that the figures published would be inaccurate. I just do not believe that. I have faith in the way that newspaper is run and, in that analysis, it showed there was nothing excessive as a whole in prices here. There may be exceptions. Obviously there are black sheep in every community, but we can, I think, take it for granted there is no excessive charging here as compared with abroad. I myself have looked at a number of hotel guide books. When I go abroad on international conferences, I get the local guide and I cannot find anything excessive in our hotel charges.

Mr. James Tully

The Minister does agree there is a difference in the standard of living in the different countries and the cost of living has a bearing. It is a different thing altogether for someone here travelling around the country; there is no point in telling him what the prices are in France.

Mr. Childers

There has been an inflationary period here as the Deputy knows, in respect of which the advice of a great many economists and of the NIEC has been taken. That has had some effect on costs for people living here.

Mr. James Tully

Profits have gone up.

Mr. Childers

Some Deputies questioned the level of grants offered by Bord Fáilte for hotel accommodation. They are geared to the economics of the operation. The higher grants are given only in remote areas or where there are economic difficulties in establishing a hotel. The lower grants outside the west are quite adequate. I do not think Deputy Treacy, for example, need fear that there will not be hotel development in his constituency simply because, in some areas, the promoters would not get the same grants for establishing a new hotel as would be given in respect of Clifden, for example, or between Clifden and Galway, or for extending their premises in such an area. A great deal depends on the situation of the hotel. There are hotels which are obviously obliged to close down from November to April because there is no business. There are others, even in rural districts, which have a commercial business during the winter and are able to take advantage of the extension of the season to the maximum degree.

Deputy Gibbons referred to the desirability of better signposting. Every year, Bord Fáilte spend money on signposting. I think signposting is improving. I trust the regional tourist boards will do what we see around the Malin Head peninsula and Kerry. A certain number of ring signposting has been done to encourage motorists to go over a circular route where there is beautiful scenery. I trust that kind of signposting will develop in time.

A number of Deputies commented on farmhouse grants. I hope the use of the grants will develop in the next few years. As far as I know, the thousand beds in the farmhouses that were ready in the past season were very well filled. Once the minimum of comfort and accommodation requirements are met, I think tourists are very happy to go amongst the farming people in the countryside. They like the personal atmosphere and enjoy the family life a great deal.

Deputy Tully asked for some aid for restaurants in holiday resort areas. I am afraid we have not reached that dizzy level of aid. In certain areas, there is quite a need for restaurants, particularly during the summer season. Having given staff accommodation grants, farmhouse grants, increased grants for hotels, resort development grants, I am afraid I simply could not find funds for a separate system of grants for restaurants alone.

Mr. James Tully

What has been referred to has been built up. There is grave difficulty when a mid-day or evening meal cannot be obtained. One can get bed and breakfast but not an evening meal.

Mr. Childers

There is a difficulty there.

Mr. James Tully

Would the Minister consider it?

Mr. Childers

I always consider everything. The Deputy knows that there is competition. Development grants will always be with us. Deputy Collins referred to the need for moderate-priced accommodation. We need more hotels with a bedroom rate of between 35/- and 45/- per night. There has been a big increase in guesthouse and supplementary accommodation.

Deputy Lindsay said guesthouse owners were plagued by regulations. I have asked Bord Fáilte to examine every element involved in providing a grant for a guesthouse. Now, there are grants for farmhouses as well. These regulations exist with a view to the future. The standards of accommodation are improving every year. What a person going to a guesthouse desires in the way of accommodation will be different in, say, 15 years from now. If there is to be some basic addition to accommodation there must be standards of minimum size of rooms, the size of staircase, and so on. I do not believe Bord Fáilte are too strict in administering the regulations or that the standards are excessive.

In reply to Deputy P. O'Donnell and a number of other Deputies, I have already indicated that we reduced the maximum requirements as to the number of rooms in a guesthouse from ten to five if a grant is to be provided. A registered guesthouse need have only five bedrooms for guests in order to qualify for a grant and for registration but the same limitation does not apply in the case of a farmhouse which can obtain a grant if it provides a smaller number of bedrooms. We now have a very flexible system. Farmhouse and supplementary accommodation grants do not require a minimum of beds whereas the registered guesthouse does. That is a reasonable position.

I should like to repeat that there has been a very great increase in low-priced accommodation. According to OECD, there has been an increase between 1965 and 1966 of 15 per cent in the more modest type of accommodation, which is virtually a record for the OECD countries. In 1963, for B, C and D class hotels and guesthouses, and supplementary accommodation, there were 16,690 beds. In 1967, there are now 22,420 beds. That is a very satisfactory increase. It should answer the excessive propaganda that Bord Fáilte are interested only in luxury hotels.

Deputy Murphy from West Cork spoke of the necessity of developing that area for tourism. I trust he will continue to take an interest in Ivernia Regional Tourist Board whose market research on this subject is very interesting and should stimulate people to offer accommodation to tourists and to take part in resort development and every activity of that kind.

Deputy Moore referred to the bill posting menace. This is subject to the local planning authorities who, I trust, will take a sound and right attitude to it. It would be quite impossible to eliminate all bill posting but, equally, it could be controlled so as not to affect amenity areas.

He referred to the necessity for developing angling. Bord Fáilte and the Inland Fisheries Trust are working very actively in this regard and I have not had any serious complaints about what they are doing. I hope they will continue with their very excellent work.

Deputy Ryan referred to hotel grants given by Bord Fáilte and to the consequent sale of the hotels. At the moment, applicants must agree to keep premises registered with the Board for a period of ten years, or otherwise the grant becomes repayable. There is no bar to selling but the premises must be kept registered.

Mr. James Tully

Is it transferable?

Mr. Childers

Yes. The hotel has to be kept registered with Bord Fáilte but there is no objection to selling.

Mr. James Tully

If it is sold, and if it continues as an hotel, the grant is not repayable.

Mr. Childers

Yes. Deputy O'Hara raised the question of Bord Fáilte publicity in Mayo. If he reads "Guide to Ireland", he will find included in it all the beauty spots of the country. There are many other commercial guides which are excellent. There are five or six, all of which include County Mayo and, if the Deputy goes to any bookshop, he will see them on sale. They are, apparently, bought by tourists on their arrival here. He should know that the Regional Tourist Boards have as one of their primary duties the obligation of publishing local guides. First of all, they have to get going with their information services, then they have to publish guides and then seek supplementary accommodation and pass it on to Bord Fáilte for inspection. I have seen some of these local guides myself and a good deal of local effort has gone into them. If private individuals followed the splendid example given by Father Egan regarding Ballintubber area, I am sure there would be even more publicity for their areas.

Next I come to C.I.E. Some Deputies seem to question the accounts of CIE and the meaning of the £2 million subsidy. I should have thought it was clear enough. The accounts are published in full and it is possible for anybody with an understanding of accountancy to see the varied success of CIE in regard to their difficult services. Generally speaking, with the exception of the small steamer services and the docks, the only losing service is the railway company. One can say the subsidy of £2 million a year is given to maintain the railway. As I have often indicated to the House before, if only the railway was 300 miles long instead of 160 the financial problem would be much less. It is a little bit too long to close and much too short to have any chance of making a profit or of having a minimal loss. That is the position.

There are only about 700 miles of CIE lines that are profitable and which pay their way. As I have already indicated, whereas about six years ago there were three railway companies in Europe making a profit there is now no railway company in Europe making a profit, although the deficit in regard to one of them would be minimal. This is due to increased costs and to the tremendous competition of private transport. The deficit in the case of CIE is a considerable burden on the taxpayer. It is the equivalent of 4d per gallon on petrol. It is a lot to pay. It is exceeded as a percentage of revenue by some railway companies in Europe and it is less in others.

One of the difficulties of CIE is the fact that they have no transit traffic which a great many railway companies in Europe have. They have no very heavy continuous traffic and unlike, say, the Swedish traffic, there is no very large industrial centre in one part of the country sending goods and materials to another very large industrial centre in another part. The main industrial centre here is Dublin, as it is in the case of Copenhagen and Brussels, and therein lies another difficulty making it impossible for CIE to make the railways pay.

A number of Deputies still refer to the closing of the railway lines. I do not need to go into that all over again. Deputy M.P. Murphy referred to the closing of the West Cork line. I need not keep the House by going into the details of the history of that line and the fact that the average number of passengers per train at Cork station was 36, a bus load, and the average amount of goods was ten tons, a lorry load, or two small lorry loads. That was the position. It was not a railway: it was a tramway running along lines stopping too frequently with the kind of traffic that could be offered. There has since been an improvement in various sectors of the West Cork area in regard to the amount of goods and the number of passengers carried by CIE.

Deputy Treacy quite rightly raised the question of whether the fares are cheap enough on CIE. Whenever I speak to the Board I say to them: "Do try some more experiments with cheap fares." In fact, the range of cheap fares has expanded over the past three years, between weekend fares and cheap excursion fares of various kinds and then all the schoolchildren tours and so on. I think they are going to try another experiment, but I do not know if they have already started it, with family fares. I have emphasised the need for examining experiments in cheap fares and they are going as far as possible in that. CIE are making a big effort.

Deputy Treacy suggested that Dublin city bus fares were expensive. They are not expensive compared with any other similar route in England or anywhere else. The profits have gone down and the profit made per bus passenger journey is absolutely meagre, something between one-seventh to one-ninth of a penny per passenger journey. He also complained about provincial fares. At certain fare ranges and certain distances they are comparable and I know CIE are trying an experiment with weekend provincial cheap fares on their buses which I hope will be successful.

Mr. James Tully

You can travel 30 miles on a bus in England for 2/6d. You will not get that far here for 2/6d.

Mr. Childers

Yes, I think that is true. Deputy Byrne speaks in an exaggerated way about CIE bus services in Dublin. There have been numerous re-routings and the provision of additional services in the past few years. I do not think I need repeat all the steps taken by CIE to get over the difficulty of bunching—centralised control of traffic, the use of radio cars and the experiment going to be undertaken with television are some of them. But I want to make it clear to the House that CIE have done their best by their own personal inspection, and there is no other way of trying to improve the city bus services than by data processing information received personally from a sufficiently high proportion of the people of Dublin to make it authentic. I do not see what else they can do. This method is accepted in the modern world of market research. CIE have interviewed 227,000 passengers out of a total of 718,000 passengers on where they were going, where they came from and what kind of bus service they use. The results show that, taking it by and large no major change is required in the bus pattern in Dublin city.

A Deputy suggested that there ought to be a circular service. The consultant is testing the possibility of such a service, which would run around the North and South Circular Roads and cross the Liffey at Butt Bridge and Islandbridge. The assessor of this data processing said that the case for the circular service appears to be weak. But it has been mentioned so often as a possibility it is essential that the matter be finally resolved on a scientific basis. Then he goes on to refer to the whole of the examination and to state that it is unlikely that any radical changes in our existing routes would be recommended. He does indicate, of course, that if there were some change in the character of the road structure in Dublin, obviously they would have to look again at the data processing analysis that has taken place.

I do not see what more one can do. It is a great credit to the management of CIE and particularly the Dublin bus manager that, having made numerous changes himself, when these people were interviewed it was found there was no need to make any marked change in the pattern of service. There is also the final fact that only 11 per cent of the passengers have to transfer to a second route to complete their journey. The number is only seven per cent at peak periods. That indicates, too, the fact that the pattern of services was correctly predicted and carried out.

Deputy Mullen referred in passing, without very much criticism, to the licences issued to the operators of motor coach tours originating abroad. In order to qualify for the licences given by my Department tours must be of a duration of not less than four nights stay in the State and confined to persons normally resident outside Ireland who have made advance reservations. As far as I know, the issue of these licences has done no harm to CIE. We issued 91 licences, in fact, and I hope we will issue more. It has not harmed CIE. On the contrary, they have begun to operate tours in Britain, not at present with their own coaches but they could apparently use their own, since conditions of operation there are very much the same as here.

Deputy Cosgrave referred to the delay by the standing arbitrator in deciding redundancy compensation claims. I have already dealt with this in reply to a Question from the Deputy and pointed out that these people can now apply to the Circuit Court and this should not be subject to any great delay. Any case previously referred to the standing arbitrator not determined within three months of the passing of the Act could be referred to the Circuit Court. From what I have seen of the remaining cases, in most cases the plaintiff concerned has already been paid some capital sum or is already receiving some form of annuity. Therefore, there is hardly anyone left deprived completely of some form of redundancy pay or compensation. Only marginal cases are left.

Deputy Tully made reference to certain CIE bus-train links which are defective. I would be glad if the Deputy would write me again about this. I will take it up. Some of the explanations I have had from CIE are inadequate, I think, and I will tackle CIE once again, if the Deputy will write me.

Mr. James Tully

I thank the Minister.

Mr. Childers

The schools bus services are in the formative stage. It would be impossible for me to comment at this stage on a matter which relates partly to my Department and partly to that of the Minister for Education. All I can say is that, on the whole, it reflects splendidly on the organising capacity of CIE. The number of complaints the Minister for Education has had which could relate to CIE operations have been very few.

Mr. James Tully

The Minister will agree it is stupid to have two buses running one after the other, one packed and the other almost empty?

Mr. Childers

I think that is true. It is something to be examined.

Mr. James Tully

Since CIE are being paid for both, there does not seem to be any point in it.

Mr. Childers

Deputy Tully also referred to the fact that the rail service to Bettystown station and the number of stops there appeared to be limited. If he will write to me about that I will take it up again with CIE.

Deputy Gibbons asked questions about CIE containers. These are being developed, especially for rail, for use in the export trade, by CIE, in conjunction with the shipping companies and British Railways.

Deputy Cosgrave and Deputy Lindsay referred to the announced decision of CIE to build a hotel at Dún Laoghaire. Traffic developments and the enormous growth in car ferry traffic, including the introduction of a new car ferry by British Rail next year, are one of the reasons why they have made this decision. A changing pattern in tourism, whereby more and more holiday makers are turning to inclusive tours, is another reason. It is imperative to promote facilities for inclusive tours in this country if we are to maintain our tourist growth. Block booking for this is essential. It has been found that the inclusive tour business has been severely restricted by the inability of the promoters to effect block bookings. CIE are not subsidised in any form, directly or indirectly. They are a particularly suitable agency for providing accommodation for this particular kind of business because of their long experience in the hotel trade and the extensive promotional work undertaken to capture inclusive tours and motoring holiday visitors. The traffic generated will be largely new and will not be the same traffic as now goes to Dún Laoghaire. This must be so if tourism is to expand. In every port area there are varying types of traffic, through traffic, purely transitory traffic and people who come there wanting to spend a holiday in the area. In this I am referring to ports which are also resorts.

Deputy Byrne spoke as though he were not a member of the "Just Society" element in Fine Gael. He really did speak in the most conservative way, as though he had virtually a horror of all State enterprise, wanted nothing but private enterprise and suspected that all State enterprise was in some way doubtful and not to be encouraged, particularly where it competed effectively with private enterprise on a profitable basis. I want to say this to Deputy Byrne, that we are going to need a great many hotel bedrooms in this country in the next five years, and my attitude to this is that if private enterprise cannot provide them and if I am convinced by Bord Fáilte that the provision of hotels by CIE is justified and that it will take nobody's living or employment away, I am perfectly prepared to ask CIE to fill any gaps that remain in the provision of hotels, particularly in the B class, the field of the 35/- to 45/- a night bedroom, which is no longer an expensive charge in the European world. Deputy Lindsay referred to a motel he found in the Netherlands where he got bed and breakfast for, I think, 20/- or 25/-. There is a new motel, for example, in the Limerick area where similar facilities can be obtained.

Various people asked why should CIE start a motel in Killarney. Killarney is bursting at the seams with people. People have found it impossible to get accommodation in the peak season in Killarney, and it is an excellent place to expand. Hotel accommodation is required at growth points, and there is nothing we can do about that. As time goes by, there will be more guesthouses and hotels in the remote areas, and indeed they are growing and expanding, but in every country of the world there are certain growth points for tourism where people want to go. There are people who prefer to stay in Galway city or Salthill and to go out each day into the country and to picnic or take lunch in a small hotel. However, there are other people who will grow in numbers and who really want to go to isolated areas where there is absolute peace and tranquillity. There will be a demand for both types of accommodation, and, in reply to Deputy Lindsay and others, let me say there are very high grants for isolated hotels with a short season. Deputy Lindsay, in rather extravagant mood, suggested that as CIE rail services lost and as there was a social service element in CIE, that company might as well put their motels in places where they are almost certainly going to fail financially. I fail to follow Deputy Lindsay's argument.

There have been various questions in regard to the CIE monopoly position in relation to road freight. There are 1,000 merchandise licences and I think, roughly, an equal number of CIE lorries. We have been examining the whole question of the laws under which both carriers operate, and we have made many amendments in the regulations in regard to freight transport and agricultural produce. We have had no complaints from any of the livestock people, having made substantial changes in the arrangements for moving livestock. We shall be making some other changes in the future, not of a major kind, not changing the general principle which I think has been found satisfactory to everybody.

Mr. James Tully

Is it proposed to bring it into line with what is going on in the EEC?

Mr. Childers

The EEC have not made up their minds on anything in regard to transport.

Mr. James Tully

At the present time they are making up their minds in a big way, and there will be a change from what they are doing and what we are doing.

Mr. Childers

I received the reports from the European Conference of Ministers for Transport, and there have been no specific decisions.

Mr. James Tully

The Minister knows the direction in which they are going.

Mr. Childers

Deputy Moore said something about housing and slums, about the concept of Dublin as a museum and the priority of eliminating slums. I want to speak very strongly on this subject. Deputy Moore, perhaps, did not expand what he had to say sufficiently, but there is nothing which need prevent the elimination of the slum problem and at the same time the maintaining of the best of our 18th century architecture in Dublin. What the best of it is and the limitation on it is not a matter for me to decide, but there is no reason why we should not preserve the greatest of our 18th century architecture and there is no reason why we should not maintain the harmony of houses in certain other areas, as indicated so clearly in the very interesting report prepared by An Taisce which, I understand, is being largely adopted by Dublin Corporation. I understand that they have adopted, in general, the ideas of An Taisce in regard to the preservation of the beauties of Dublin, and I hope they will stick to that. There is no reason why that could not be done while at the same time ensuring that the housing problem will be solved. I think everybody in the Dáil agrees with that.

The Government have shown their interest in the preservation of 18th century architecture by spending, over the course of about 15 years, nearly £500,000 on the rehabilitation of the very great buildings in the city: the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham and Dublin Castle. They have shown their interest in preserving historic monuments, and there would be many other instances I could give of work done by the Board of Works to preserve ancient buildings. When one considers the total cost over a period of 30 years of ensuring that the best of 18th century Dublin will be preserved, in relation to the total cost of rehousing all the people of Dublin, it will be seen that by State contributions, by Dublin Corporation contribution and a contribution from the people themselves voluntarily, we shall be able to afford it over the next 30 years.

Deputy Mullen quite rightly raised the question, in a slightly exaggerated form, of the operation of CERT, and as to whether the people trained by the CERT training organisation would be employed full-time. It is intended that those who come from CERT should be employed full-time. Indeed, we need more recruitment to staff adequately the projected increase in hotel accommodation in the future. There is liaison between CERT and Bord Fáilte, and one of the directors of Bord Fáilte is a director of CERT.

Mr. James Tully

The best way to get recruits is to see that those who are trained are adequately paid.

Mr. Childers

Then again in connection with liaison of one kind or another, a member of Bord Fáilte is a director of each of the regional tourist organisations, so there is liaison in that regard, too. Deputy Mullen knows there is no country in the world where tourism exists and where there is not some element of non-permanent employment. We have not the luck of having two full seasons such as the Austrians have, with ski-ing in the winter, and the summer season as well. Yet even there, there is a rise and fall in the numbers employed. What we are looking for is the largest degree of permanent employment. At the same time, we are aware of the fact that there will be temporary employees in some of the summer hotels. Indeed in many rural areas it works very successfully. Although we want to see the people employed all the year round, there is excellent employment given to the sons and daughters of people on farms, and in that way it helps to raise the farm income. There are other people who are employed on a retainer basis during winter or who go abroad during winter.

Deputy Corry referred to the cost of beet haulage. It is accepted that hauliers' charges for beet transport are lower than CIE charges. This arises because of the inescapable higher costs which CIE incur through pension costs, overtime rates and so on. The system under which CIE plate private lorries is designed to reduce capital investment by CIE in transport equipment which would be used for only part of the year, while at the same time giving a higher level of utilisation to private lorries. This policy is clearly in the national interest. I have had very little complaint on it.

Deputy Moore referred to the character of the CIE buses. So far as I know there have been 176 new buses of one kind or another. I think those are the ones that have been constructed in a recent period. The character of the buses is improving as the years go by. Every effort is made to clean the buses but I have myself noticed that there are dirty CIE buses. There is a regular programme for cleaning.

Some Deputies asked for the major improvements that resulted from the Report of the Tavistock Institute on Human Relations after their discussions with CIE. I am glad to tell the House—I have already stated this on another occasion—that the moment this committee started making inquiries, CIE secured a lot of interesting information. Improvements were undertaken long before the report was actually published. I have always encouraged all the State companies to take all the advice they can on personnel management in order that there will be contentment of staff and satisfaction in work.

Action was taken by CIE including the following things: schedules were altered and the capacity and scheduled times were increased during peak hours; special measures were taken to reduce the number of mechanical failures in buses; new centralised paying-in offices were provided where the conductors' cash is mechanically counted; improved pensions were awarded and improved sick pay; the driving school was expanded and the number of conductors trained as drivers was trebled since 1963-64. There were various improvements in work, pay, and so on, but I need not go into those. They were part of a long term operation. Better uniforms were provided and improved staff facilities which I have seen myself were provided. They are excellent. Those were provided in the Summerhill, Ringsend and Clontarf garages. New administrative and recreation centres were built in Conyngham Road and work is almost completed on a similar installation at Donnybrook. Showers, lockers, canteens and games rooms are provided in the new buildings.

The busmen have been brought into closer contact with the management through the decentralisation of the management of the Dublin city services. This was planned in 1964-65 and came into operation in November, 1966, when seven districts were established each with a district manager and each, with the exception of the central district, containing a bus depot and a garage. This undoubtedly is one of the most important suggestions recommended by the Tavistock inquiry during the course of the examination, in order to make the busman feel he was in touch with people of whose existence he was aware and that his ideas and routine inquiries and complaints were not lost in the vast central complex at Kingsbridge. A very valuable change was made.

Mr. James Tully

Before the Minister leaves CIE has he any comment to make on the TV advertisements to which I referred?

Mr. Childers

I think this was done by CIE to encourage more public interest in the necessity for a sort of comprehensive examination of all the traffic needs in Dublin and going far beyond the establishment of clearways. This is something in which the Gardaí, Dublin Corporation and CIE were involved. I am not sure that it was very effective. In fact the campaign is over. I was not particularly keen on it, to be quite frank.

Mr. James Tully

Does the Minister know what it cost?

Mr. Childers

I cannot say. Anything that advertises CIE is an advertisement.

Mr. James Tully

That was a pretty bad one.

Mr. Childers

I could not say.

Mr. James Tully

They got very few extra passengers.

Mr. Childers

Deputy Ryan tried to foist on to CIE the responsibility for measures taken to change the bus stops. He went on about this at great length. The Gardaí, the Department of Local Government and the Corporation deal with measures to alleviate traffic problems. The Commissioner of the Gardaí initiates such action as he thinks necessary to facilitate the traffic flow and reduce congestion. CIE are consulted but there is no good in Deputy Ryan giving the impression to the public that CIE alter the bus stops and are mainly responsible for altering the bus stops. Nothing of the kind happens.

In reply to Deputy Ryan also, there are some Sunday summer services by CIE to Bray. The future use of the railways is visualised but the plan is really only an outline. An Foras Forbartha is proceeding with proposals for a transportation survey which will identify the role of public transport including the railways in the Dublin and other areas.

Deputy Ryan made allegations about wrong destinations on buses. I have noticed this myself and I am asking to have it inquired into. Deputy Ryan is right. I have seen some absolutely crazy numbers on my own bus route.

Mr. James Tully

I met one going to Drumcondra and it had "An Lar" on it. It is confusing enough without that.

Mr. Childers

Deputy Fitzpatrick asked about the excise duty payable by CIE on fuel oil for road services. Full duty is paid on fuel oil for all road freight services. Fuel oil for CIE road passenger services enjoys a rebate of 1/6d per gallon. This rebate is allowed also to private operators of licensed road passenger services.

Mr. James Tully

There is a doubt about that. I know a few who are finding it extremely difficult to get the rebate.

Mr. Childers

If there are anomalies they will have to be examined.

Mr. James Tully

If I bring them to the Minister's notice, will he have representations made?

Mr. Childers

I should like to have the particulars. A number of Deputies on both sides of the House raised the question of CIE pension levels. I am referring now to pre-April, 1963, pensioners. I have also indicated in reply to questions that the pension plus the contributory old age pension in the case of one particular group of pensioners amounts to £6 7s a week for a married man and £4 2s in the case of an unmarried man. I have decided to ask CIE to examine this whole position again, particularly now that the Transport Act is expiring and in the ambit of rates and fares levels and the general economic position. I hope to be able to make a statement later. It is true to say that the number of pensioners is diminishing. They have been fortified with contributory old age pensions and unemployment benefit—I am speaking of 1963 pensioners—and the others, I think, are not badly looked after at all. I shall examine it again. I think the Deputies will be satisfied with that statement.

Deputy Lindsay said that he lost a bag and it was not returned to him for 13 days. Did he contact the CIE area manager? Did he contact anybody? We always get trivial complaints of one kind or another in regard to the State companies but I have had very few complaints of this kind. I hope he contacted the area manager and asked him to investigate the circumstances of his bag taking 13 days to go from Donegal to Enniscrone. It is most unusual. About 85 per cent of all CIE freight traffic is delivered within 24 hours.

Mr. James Tully

It is lucky it was not sold as lost property.

Mr. Childers

In reply to Deputy Moore, my Department is not responsible for any defects that have arisen through the provision of clearways in the centre of the city. It is a matter for either the Minister for Justice in the case of taxis or the Dublin Corporation or the other authorities in connection with the position of shops or vans or any other type of transport.

Deputy Dillon made reference to the action taken by customs staffs in certain areas. I have not had many complaints about this. Deputy Dillon asked for full particulars of State investment in the Shannon Free Airport Development Company. I gave that to him. It is £9.4 million. He also implied that he would like to know how far it was considered to be an economic operation in the sense of how many people were employed for the money invested. I have never done a complete study of this; it is very difficult to do. The Shannon Free Airport Development Company did one which included all the housing and all the receipts received for everything amounted to about £1,500 per employee. That is not excessive by any means in relation to the amount that is frequently invested to employ one person. I can assure the House on that.

Mr. James Tully

The Minister is not including loans in the amount. The total amount which has been advanced is over £19 million and the number of people employed is 3,344, 1,900 of whom are men and the rest girls. You can prove anything statistically and I think the Minister's figures could be read in a different way.

Mr. Childers

You have to allow for the receipts that come in constantly for the leasing of property and so on. It is a difficult calculation. The Deputy is probably right, but I should not have started on this without having a considered statement. I am quite convinced that it is not excessive in any case.

Mr. James Tully

Bord na Móna bears up as well.

Mr. Childers

Deputy Treacy again raised the question of industrial relations in the Shannon Free Airport Development Estate. I do not propose to speak on this matter because I do not think I could do any good by saying anything except to say that the wage levels there are not low. They are, in some cases, higher than those in the district. I hope that industrial relations will continue to be satisfactory and if there are any difficulties there at the moment that they will be solved satisfactorily. Let nobody imagine that the wage levels are depressed because that is simply not true. One has to take into account the apprenticeship element at Shannon because it is so new.

Mr. James Tully

Surely foreign firms should not be allowed to come into Shannon and refuse to recognise trade unions in this country?

Mr. Childers

That is a different matter and the Deputy knows it would not be much use for anybody to start intervening in regard to that or saying anything about it. I hope it will be settled satisfactorily.

Deputy T. O'Donnell had a curious sort of double think about the Shannon Industrial Estate and whether it was desirable or not. In one sentence he seemed to favour it and in the next he was questioning its future, et cetera. I do not want to misquote Deputy T. O'Donnell. I think he does really approve of the Shannon Industrial Estate. In answer to him, it is going to be allowed to grow to a total of 6,000 people living in the area and then the position will be re-examined. The Shannon Industrial Estate and Shannon Airport employ people from all over County Clare, County Limerick, from Ennis town and from Limerick city as he knows well. It employs a variety of people from around the countryside. I think there are some eight more industrial and commercial establishments promised at Shannon.

Deputy T. O'Donnell is wrong about the air freight. On the whole the industrial estate companies at Shannon do make use of air freight to a satisfactory degree. They provide half of the total air freight at the airport and the air freight has been increased at the estate by 37 per cent from 1965 to 1966.

Mr. T. O'Donnell

The point I made was that in the notes circulated by the Minister he stated that the air freight generated represented one-third of the total air freight whereas in his speech he said a half. Which is correct?

Mr. Childers

The figures were out of date by the time the speech was prepared. The information in the speech was correct, the information in the notes was slightly out-of-date.

Deputy O'Donnell asked about the position with regard to the expansion of the industrial estate to the whole of Limerick. It has already been stated that the question of industrial centres is under constant review by the Government and they are naturally considering all the existing industrial centres, the points of growth around the country.

Mr. T. O'Donnell

Has the Taoiseach specifically requested the Minister for Transport and Power to examine the possibility of extending the estate to include Limerick?

Mr. Childers

The question of including Limerick would be a matter for the Department of Industry and Commerce not for me.

Mr. James Tully

Not for Education either.

Mr. T. O'Donnell

The Minister for Education has said specifically that the Taoiseach had requested the Minister for Transport and Power and the Minister for Industry and Commerce to report to him directly on the feasibility of extending the estate to include Limerick and Ennis.

Mr. Childers

The Deputy did not let me finish. I said that I have an interest in this in regard to any part that might be taken by Shannon Free Airport Development Company but there are many other centres that would demand attention. All this is a question of priorities. Assuming that Galway and Waterford operate successfully there will be many other centres. There is the Monaghan centre and Sligo and Castlebar. The question of particular centres is a matter for the Government and there has been no firm decision on it whatever, none whatever, either informally or any other way in regard to this.

Mr. T. O'Donnell

I appreciate the Minister's frankness in the matter.

Mr. Childers

Deputy O'Malley was speaking hopefully about something that he thought might happen. That is all one can say. I want to make this absolutely clear because this industrial centre development is something we have only just begun as a result of the report of a Special Committee and it would be very foolish to extend this movement without considering all the financial, social and economic implications of it and making quite sure that the work had the maximum results and taking account of all the prevailing needs of the economy for more industrial employment.

Mr. James Tully

I think the Minister is being very fair. He has, in fact, cleared the air but I think some of his colleagues should not misstate the facts and put the Minister in the embarrassing position in which he has been here over the last few days.

Mr. Childers

As far as I know, no colleague of mine has stated that any decision has been made.

Mr. James Tully

If he did not say it, he was misrepresented in the newspapers and he should have done something about it.

Mr. T. O'Donnell

It was stated specifically that the Taoiseach had asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Minister for Transport and Power to report directly to him on the feasibility of extending the facilities of the industrial estate to include Limerick and Ennis.

Mr. Childers

I want to say something else. This is a comment which has not been made at all recently and there may be people who will disagree with me. The value of a customs free area is absolutely limited. It was interesting to have a customs free area in the Shannon area. There are some customs free areas elsewhere but in the modern world, where customs procedures can be speeded up, I know for a fact that there are certain areas in Europe that are not customs free areas and where there are factories and the movement of goods in and out of the factories is just as quick as it would be anywhere else. Once you have a factory and assuming in the ordinary way that the people who direct factories are honest and are not smugglers, and once the customs officials know what is coming to that factory and going out of it, the paper work can be very small indeed. The idea that a miracle can be achieved overnight by surrounding an area in Ireland with a customs free boundary is just not realistic.

Mr. James Tully

Unfortunately the people in west Limerick did not appreciate the niceties of what the Minister is saying.

Mr. Childers

I think I have now virtually answered every question except that of Deputy T. O'Donnell who spoke about the Limerick region in connection with tourism. The answer to that is that the Shannonside Tourist Board spends the money it gets from local sources. I would like to thank the House once again for what on the whole was a most constructive and interesting debate. With regard to the many matters which arose in it which require the attention of the companies concerned, I shall go through the script, when it is finally published, and see that they receive attention.

Motion "That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration," by leave withdrawn.

Vote put and agreed to.