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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 31 Jan 1968

Vol. 232 No. 1

Private Members' Business. - Planning Appeals Bill, 1967: Second Stage.

(Cavan): I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time.

Under the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1963, provision is made for appealing decisions of a planning authority to the Minister for Local Government. The decisions which may be appealed to the Minister fall into five broad categories (a) those relating to permission to develop property or to retain a structure in respect of which planning permission was not obtained, and in relation to the unauthorised use of property; (b) decisions by a planning authority taking the form of a notice served by authority on a property owner in relation to the preservation of amenities, be they trees, flora or fauna, or the creation of amenities, such as rights of way; (c) certain decisions relating to the payment of compensation by the planning authority; (d) the relaxation of building restrictions and (e) decisions of a procedural character, that is to say, dealing with services of notices of a property owner extending the time for bringing a claim for compensation.

The Act also provides that if any question arises in any particular case as to what is or is not a development or an exempted development, the question should be referred to and decided by the Minister. In this Bill Fine Gael propose to take all these powers of appeal from the Minister for Local Government and to give them instead to a new board to be known as the Appeals Board. The board, to be established under section 4, is designed to ensure impartiality, confidence and competence and to improve the operation of the Planning and Development Act throughout the country. When the present Act was going through the Dáil the Fine Gael Party, by numerous amendments, sought to have these powers of appeal vested in the courts. That view was not accepted by the Dáil and we had to be content to wait and see how the Act would work out in practice. It is now clear beyond shadow of doubt that the appeals provisions of the Act are not working satisfactorily; on the contrary, the appeals procedure is the object of widespread criticism, suspicion and distrust, and it is difficult to see how it could be otherwise.

Under the Act of 1963, provision is made for the hearing of appeals on oral evidence by any party. It is further provided that any such oral hearing may be conducted by a person appointed for that purpose by the Minister. Such person, normally an officer of the Minister's Department, is empowered to furnish a report to the Minister before the Minister gives his decision. Even with the best will in the world the Minister for Local Government cannot properly exercise his appeal powers under the Act if for no other reason than that the volume of work to be discharged by the Minister on appeals alone is too great. In the year ended 30th September, 1965, 979 valid appeals were submitted to the Minister. In the following year, 1,125 were submitted and in the year ended 30th September, 1967, 1,322 were submitted. During the year ending 30th September, 1965, 437 appeals were decided by the Minister. In the following year, 862 appeals were decided by the Minister and for the year ending 30th September, 1967, 991 appeals were decided by the Minister.

Some of these appeals were probably more important than others but in every case in which a citizen decides to appeal to the Minister, it must be taken that the matter involved is of considerable importance to that person. It is quite impossible for a Minister with his many duties—as Minister in charge of his Department, as a Deputy with constituency duties, as a member of a political Party and a Member of the Government—and while carrying on his functions in relation to these various activities, to bring a judicial mind to bear upon as many as 991 planning decisions in the space of one year. It must be obvious that in many cases the Minister will act upon the report of the civil servant dealing at official level with the planning appeal and merely rubber stamp it, dealing personally, so to speak, only with those cases in which special representations have been made to him. It is a delusion to think that decisions in planning appeals are at present the product of a Ministerial examination of the reasons why the planning authority made the decision in the first place, or of the arguments for or against the decision put in by the parties to the appeal.

Fine Gael believe that it is wrong that the Minister, who is a politician and the political head of the Department of Local Government, should be entrusted with giving judicial decisions in planning appeals, decisions which can add enormously to the value of property or, indeed, detract enormously from such value. As a politician, the Minister is subject to political pressure from many angles and it would be asking too much of human nature to expect the Minister not to be influenced by such pressure. In my opinion, it is asking too much of the present Minister for Local Government, who is the honorary secretary of his own Party, and who acts as Director of Elections from one end of the country to the other, and who, I think, would not be offended if I described him as being one of the people regarded as a director of strategy within his own Party, not to be unfairly influenced by the pressure which must be brought to bear on him as a result of his activities in the various fields I have mentioned.

The next question I should like to pose is: is there a demand for the Bill which I am now recommending to the House? I say there is a widespread demand for it. There is widespread dissatisfaction about the present system of appeals. As recently as last September, the Association of Municipal Authorities in Ireland, at its Congress in Tralee, passed this resolution unanimously:

That the Minister for Local Government be asked to amend the Planning and Development Act, 1963, so as to provide that planning appeals should be heard by the judiciary instead of the Minister for Local Government.

That conference is composed of representatives from all political Parties, including the Minister's Party. It is composed of representatives from practically all the municipal authorities in the State, and that was its recommendation and its demand. The executive of this Association of Municipal Authorities, as recently as last week in the City Hall in Dublin, also expressed dissatisfaction with the present planning arrangements and suggested that they should be preserved as a reserved function. The resolution I am relying on is the resolution unanimously passed after having been on the agenda circulated for a couple of weeks by the annual conference of the Association of Municipal Authorities in Ireland.

In order to make appeals affecting the property rights not alone of developers but also of adjacent property owners, and the public, real appeals in which the issues will be decided upon a mature consideration of the proper planning and development of a particular area and the other provisions laid down in the Act of 1963, Fine Gael propose in the Bill to establish an independent board which will devote its full time to dealing with planning appeals. It will be provided with such a staff as will be necessary to enable the board to function effectively. Lest one board should not be sufficient to deal with the number of appeals—which on present indications appear to be growing year by year: it will be noted that the total number of appeals dealt with in the year ending 30th September, 1967, was twice the number dealt with in the year ending 30th September, 1965—power is being given in the Bill to the Minister to increase the number of members of the board so that a second board will be available to deal with appeals. The second board would have the same powers and act in all respects in the same way as the permanent board to be appointed by the Bill.

In the complex society in which we live, it is obviously necessary that the State should play an ever-increasing role in public affairs. The stage has been reached, however, where the steadily increasing autonomy of the Government and the Civil Service has quite literally become a law unto itself. Most ministerial decisions made in the exercise of discretionary powers vested in them by various statutes are not subject to the authority of the courts, nor can they be effectively made the subject of an inquiry even by Parliamentary Question, by debates on the Adjournment, or in the course of debates on Estimates for various Departments. We have reached the stage in this country where the permanent head of a Department has refused to produce his files for audit purposes to the Comptroller and Auditor General. That is an indication of the stage to which the autonomy which the Civil Service claims to exercise has travelled. That is the sort of thing to which I say this Bill will put an end.

Decisions of Ministers are too numerous to permit of any scrutiny in order to avoid injustices which may arise in many cases. To continue to allow this great and increasing power of the Government—most frequently exercised by its Civil Service—to be exercised arbitrarily against an individual citizen or business company— and by "exercised arbitrarily" I mean exercised according to their own will—is at complete variance with our sense of justice and fair play. Most European countries have some form of protection against arbitrary decisions by the executive Government. In France they have what is known as the Conseil D'État. In Sweden, in Finland, in Denmark, in Norway and in New Zealand, they have in one form or another an officer corresponding to the Ombudsman about whom we hear so much in modern times. In England recently they introduced the Parliamentary Commissioner as the result of a demand from the public for someone to stand between the rights of the citizens and the powers of the executive.

In this country we have never publicly recognised the need for any officer who would have supervisory authority over decisions of Ministers in those areas in which Ministers exercise a discretionary administrative power. It is true, however, that in certain fields, we have recognised the necessity for entrusting decisions to judicial or quasi-judicial officers. Under the income tax code, we have the Special Commissioners of Income Tax who sit publicly, give their decisions and are independent. Under the Land Acts, we have the Lay Commissioners of the Land Commission who have evolved a system which, on paper, would never appear to work satisfactorily in that appeals are taken to the Lay Commissioners from administrative decisions already taken by themselves, but in practice, the Lay Commissioners of the Land Commission, sitting and acting judicially, have given the utmost satisfaction to those appearing before them.

A feature of cardinal importance in the case of the Lay Commissioners of the Land Commission is the fact that they are quite independent of the Government and of the Minister in their constitution and the terms of their appointment. That is probably why they have always been able to exercise their powers judicially, irrespective of the wishes of a particular Minister or of the pressure sometimes sought to be exercised by groups organised in relation to a particular holding of land.

Under the Social Welfare Acts, we have the appeals officers. We have the acknowledgement by the Government and the Minister for Social Welfare that appeals officers are necessary. While these appeals officers are not all that could be desired, in that they are permanent officials of the Department of Social Welfare, they still act independently of the Minister and give independent decisions, having heard the submissions and the evidence. Much more important is the decision of the Government in relation to the Redundancy Act of 1967. When the Bill was introduced, it provided that appeals be taken to an appeals officer under the Social Welfare Acts, but it is very much to the credit of the Minister for Labour that he accepted an amendment by Deputy Jones of this Party providing for an appeals tribunal of the sort I am now advocating. We believe that as a result of that amendment, the Redundancy Bill of 1967 left the House a much better instrument than when it came in.

It is an interesting coincidence, perhaps, that it was the same Deputy who, as shadow Minister for Local Government in 1963, strongly advocated an appeals board in relation to the Planning and Development Act which I now urge. He took the view then that it was wrong that appeals should be decided by a Minister just as in 1967 in the case of the Redundancy Bill he took the view that it was wrong that important decisions under that measure affecting workers and employers should be made by a civil servant. He did not succeed but he endeavoured to persuade Deputy Blaney to amend the Planning Act. He succeeded in persuading the Minister for Labour to amend the Redundancy Bill. I trust that the present Minister will follow the reasonable example of the Minister for Labour and accept this Bill.

In this Bill, Fine Gael proposes that the new Board shall consist of a chairman, who shall be a judge of the Circuit Court, the High Court or the Supreme Court and two other members, one to be drawn from a panel of members nominated by the Minister for Local Government and another to be drawn from a panel to be constituted by the Local Appointments Commissioners. The persons drawn from the panels must be a qualified civil engineer, a qualified architect or a qualified town planner.

The purpose of appointing a judge of one of the courts to act as chairman and to give the decision having heard the parties to the appeal is to give a new confidence to the public in planning appeals. In our society no better system of obtaining fair play and justice for all concerned has been devised than the machinery of appointing judges who are absolutely independent in the exercise of their judicial powers. The system of judicial appointments in this country has worked well and has given general satisfaction to the community. No doubt in individual cases, individual persons will harbour a sense of grievance because a particular judge has not seen things their way. There must be a loser in every contest before a judicial person but the public has an unshakeable belief in the impartiality and incorruptibility of our judges and it is for this reason that Fine Gael proposes that a judge should be chairman of the Board, that the decision of the Board shall be the decision of the judge, who will have the benefit of the assistance of two highly qualified persons, one appointed by the Minister and another from the Local Appointments Commissioners Panel.

It may be said that a judge is not a particularly qualified person to hear and determine appeals under the Planning Acts. The same can be said of a Minister but in any event this is entirely an erroneous view because judges have been lawyers of considerable practice and extensive experience in human affairs, in matters affecting the business community, in matters affecting property rights, during their careers before being appointed judges. A judge as chairman of the Board will bring to the Board all that wealth of experience together with that particular impartial approach as between planning authority and citizen and as between citizen and citizen and he will make decisions in the light of the requirements of the Oireachtas as laid down in the Planning Act of 1963 and the development plan made by the planning authority.

In order to ensure that the decisions of the Appeals Board are the best possible, the two additional members of the Board as assessors are proposed in the Bill. The panel to be nominated by the Minister will provide the highly expert knowledge and approach which the Minister's higher officers at the present time give to the Minister in the reports that they submit on individual planning appeals. In addition the member from the Minister's panel will provide a necessary degree of co-ordination from the Department's and planning authority's point of view and provide the liaison between the Department and the planning authority on the one hand and the planning board on the other so that those concerned with planning on what I might call the "official" side, will have constant liaison with the Board and vice versa.

On the other hand, in order to ensure impartiality and that the "official" view will not predominate on the Board, it is proposed that the third member of the Board will be drawn from a panel to be appointed by the Local Appointments Commissioners. Such a person will have the same qualifications as a member on the Minister's panel and will be a technical expert like the Minister's member, but will be able to take an independent line representing what I might call the non-"official" public interest point of view. We, of Fine Gael believe that such a Board will be a highly competent Board, and that from the very inception of its work, will inspire the members of the public coming before it with every confidence in its competence and impartiality.

In order further to strengthen the confidence of the public in the impartiality of the Board, a provision is being made in sub-section (8) of Section 4 of the Bill, that an ordinary member of the Board shall not, while holding his office as a member of the Board, be capable of holding any other office or position of emolument or be a Member of either House of the Oireachtas, or be interested in any company or partnership concerned in dealing with, or developing, land. The purpose of this provision is to make sure that no decision of the Board will fall under any suspicion that any member of the Board was or could in any way be motivated by personal interest or private gain.

The last element in the constitution of the Board for the purpose of ensuring its impartiality and inspiring public confidence in its deliberations is that the Board will keep a record of its decisions and provide a copy of every decision for the public and power has been given in the Bill to the Minister after consultation with the Board to make regulations in relation to the keeping of records of decisions and the publication of the principles applied by the Board in reaching decisions. The purpose of these provisions is to ensure that the public will know well in advance of making any planning application or taking an appeal from a planning authority's decision, the principles upon which the Board operates. These would emerge over a period of time from the decisions which the Board will give. Furthermore, as the Board would have to publish its decisions and as these will be readily accessible to the public the decisions will not only have to be fair but to appear so to the public.

In proposing to the House that the Board be established along the lines envisaged in the Bill, it is not to be understood that every appeal, however relatively unimportant it may be, will be the subject of a full-scale inquiry before the Board. This is not at all envisaged. Many appeals will be dealt with without oral hearing as at present but in every case, the Board will formally and actually make the decision itself. The Board will not rubber stamp the recommendations of any of its officials but will bring its own mind to bear upon the particular appeal and deal with it on paper. For this reason, the Board is being integrated into the Act as far as practicable and only a minimum of amendments are being made to the provisions of the 1963 Act dealing with appeals.

It may be argued that the system proposed by this Bill for dealing with appeals will add to the cost of appeals. I want to say here and now there is no such intention behind this Bill. It is of cardinal importance that it be clearly understood by the House that appeals should be continued to be dealt with, even by way of oral hearing, by the Board on an informal basis; the judge will not sit with a wig and gown as he does in Court nor will there be any of the formality associated with the proceedings that is required in Court hearings. Access to the Board should be available to any member of the public, to an engineer or architect or building contractor on his behalf. Right of audience should not and will not be restricted to members of the legal profession. Procedure before the Board must be as simple as possible and in this the Minister will by virtue of the power which he has under the Bill to make regulations after consultation with the Board to ensure that appeals to the Board will continue to have the advantage of being inexpensive and informal with the added advantage of being expert, expeditious and manifestly impartial. The time has been reached to take politics out of planning appeals and planning appeals out of politics.

I say that because town planning has come to affect the everyday life of the man in the street. It can make or mar him financially. It can add enormously to the value of his property or it can reduce it drastically. It is not reasonable or fair that decisions with such effect should be made by the political head of a Department behind closed doors without the necessity for giving his reasons for so doing.

Another amendment which is being made in the law is contained in section 7 of the Bill. This will enable a person to object to planning permission being given to appear as a party at an appeal in the kind of case where the planning authority has refused planning permission and the developer has appealed the refusal. At present if A applies for planning permission and B opposes if the planning authority refuses permission, A appeals to the Minister and there is an oral hearing, B who is vitally affected by this decision has no right to appear at the oral hearing and tender evidence and cross-examine witness. Section 7 proposes to amend that. In such a case an adjacent owner of property, who may have a vital interest in the outcome of the appeal and in upholding the planning authority's refusal, should be entitled to go to the hearing before the appeals tribunal and be heard. As the law stands he is not so entitled and the object of section 7 is to correct that.

I think there is a widespread demand in the country for a change in the method of appealing under the Planning and Development Act, 1963. It is badly needed. The present system does not command confidence. It is open to abuses and pressure from one quarter or another. I am confident that only by accepting this Bill and the principle of taking appeals away from the Minister and handing them over to an independent judicial tribunal—who will hear evidence in public if necessary, and more important, give its decision and the reasons for its decisions in public—will the present unsatisfactory state of affairs be rectified. I strongly recommend the Bill to the House.

This question of planning permission is probably one of the most controversial one could discuss at present. It has become controversial because of the very mysterious decisions that have been made from time to time by the Minister for Local Government. I undoubtedly see many benefits in taking away from the political head of a Department these decisions which so vitally affect the individual concerned but can directly affect many other people who have no say and whose interests apparently get no consideration whatever from the Minister and his Department. The first duty of a Member of this House is to express the views and, on occasions, the fears of the people that he is sent here to represent. In my constituency a considerable amount of redevelopment has taken place and the area is scheduled for further development. A number of my constituents have expressed to me their fears with regard to some of the decisions that have been handed down by the Minister with regard to planning permission and in particular with regard to appeals that have been made to the Minister against decisions of the appropriate local authority which, in the case of my constituency, is the Dublin Corporation. The fears that they have expressed have been that, in fact, there is a large element of corruption in some of the decisions that have been made. "Corruption" is a very nasty word that should not be used lightly by a Deputy in this House. The use of such a word in this House is privileged in that legal action cannot be taken against the Deputy using it. Having regard to that privilege, a very large sense of responsibility must be exercised by individual Deputies. However, the duty and the primary obligation of a Member of the House is to express clearly the feelings and fears of his constituents and there is no doubt that very many of my constituents fear that in this area of planning appeal and planning permission there is corruption. I will go further. When I see some of the decisions that have been handed down, I personally share this view.

I should like very much if the Minister would take the opportunity now presented to him by virtue of this debate to give me reason to change my view with regard to this charge of corruption because one aspect—and one of the more undesirable aspects—of the Minister's right to reverse a decision of a local authority is that he gives absolutely no reason whatsoever. He is not obliged—nor does he, in fact— to justify the decision which he is handing down. The local authority will clearly inform the applicant the grounds on which planning permission is refused. The applicant may appeal to the Minister and the next thing that one knows is that permission has been granted but no reason whatsoever is given.

Having regard to the enhanced value that planning permission may bestow, is it any wonder that this cry of "corruption" would go up in certain cases and that people are quite honestly and quite openly saying that this is a tie up and that someone, as Mr. Colley would say, "in high places" is getting something out of it? These are things that should not be lightly said by a Deputy in this House but they must be said and the Minister must be given an opportunity and must be asked to avail of that opportunity to dispel the fears that people have with regard to corruption in planning permission.

There is a number of cases I personally know where a local authority has refused permission for the erection of a certain type of structure or have reserved land for the building of local authority houses and the Minister has reversed the decisions and by doing so has made the property concerned very, very valuable indeed. In order that the Minister may be at no disadvantage when he comes to reply. I will cite just two cases that I personally know and in connection with which I find it very difficult not to agree with my constituents who cry "corruption".

Under town planning, an area consisting of approximately 330 acres in the Kilbarrack area had been designated by Dublin Corporation for local authority housing for quite some time. Then a gentleman named Gallagher acquired some of this property and appealed to the then Minister for Local Government, Deputy Blaney, for the exclusion of portion of this land for private housing. The Minister granted Mr. Gallagher's appeal and the result of that was that instead of the corporation having 330 acres for local authority housing, approximately one-third of it—I think somewhere in the region of 129 acres approximately— was excluded and handed over to Mr. Gallagher for the building of private houses. This, of course, enhanced the value of the land quite considerably and now we find that Mr. Gallagher and his group are in a position to offer back to the corporation something in the region of 700 or 800 houses, at his price. Mr. Gallagher, who is no stranger to the Fianna Fáil Party——

Can the Deputy not make his case without mentioning individuals who have no way of replying to the charges he is making?

(Cavan): I think he probably has a way to reply.

I will say, Deputy Gallagher. That gives him ample opportunity to come into this House and reply. He was able to offer back to the corporation these houses and stated quite openly, publicly—he was quoted in the newspapers as saying— that naturally he was only interested in profit. Had this land been left to the corporation they would have been able to develop their own houses on it. There is one case which gives rise— and very justifiably so unless there is an acceptable explanation as to why the decision was made—to this charge of corruption.

There is another case, a more recent one, regarding a petrol station in Mount Pleasant in regard to which there were a number of applications to Dublin Corporation which were all refused. The corporation stated in very definite terms why they were refusing permission for the erection of a petrol station at this particular place. In my opinion, and, I might add, in the opinion of the majority of the elected representatives of Dublin Corporation, they gave valid reasons why permission should not be given. The gentleman in question, who, because he is not a Member of this House and has no direct voice in the House, I shall not name, appealed to the Minister. The Minister upheld the appeal and overruled the corporation, and a petrol station can now appear in Mount Pleasant. If this gentleman has enhanced the value of the property by £58,000 by virtue of the Minister's decision to give permission, surely, unless the Minister avails of this opportunity to give an adequate explanation as to why this permission was given and the local authorities were overruled, people are justified in crying "corruption" in regard to planning permission.

I have cited two cases, and I have done so in order to give the Minister every opportunity of letting the public know why the 129 acres were excluded from the corporation's development and handed over to a private individual, despite the crying needs of the people of this city for municipal housing at the time, and why he overruled the corporation and gave permission for a petrol station to be built in Mount Pleasant, although very valid reasons had been given by the local authority for refusing such permission and absolutely no reason has been forthcoming from the Minister as to why he saw fit to give this permission.

There is a growing tendency, unfortunately, in this country today for our people to say: "Ah, sure, there was a fiddle on there." The tragedy about it is that the activities of what Mr. Colley would term "people in high places" have been going on for so long and have been going on without a full and adequate explanation of the action taken by these people in high places, that our people are inclined to believe that one of the necessary qualifications for a politician is to be on the fiddle.

I do not believe that this is the type of representation our people want, and I do not believe that any Government or any responsible politician who can do away with this tendency will not avail of every possible opportunity of doing so. If the Minister avails now of this opportunity he has of giving a reason for the decision he has made, even in the two cases I have cited, if we ignore the very many others that have happened, he will be doing a service to both the House and the people.

Which other ones? Bring it all out now. Anything the Deputy has to say, this is the place to say it. Never mind your generalities. Which one are you talking about? You are making charges.

You are not bullying your officials now. Give that lark up. That does not impress me one bit.

I do not care what impresses you. You are a sewer.

If you give me an adequate explanation in regard to the two cases I have stated——

Come along and substantiate what you have said.

When you are finished with those, I shall keep you busy with the rest.

Come along with the rest.

Deal with those two first and, with the Ceann Comhairle's permission, I shall sit down in order to give you the opportunity.

Contemptible cur. Who are you talking about?

I am talking about you and your Taca merchants.

Sewerpipe stuff. You are disgracing the whole Dáil. When you make charges you should substantiate them.

You hate to see the stone turned over because it is very unpleasant for you and your colleagues.

If charges are made——

Deputy Cluskey.

The Minister seems to be upset over the charges I have made, and who would blame him?

I was listening until you started talking in generalities. I never opened my mouth when you were giving details of alleged corruption. I spoke only when you started making general charges about corruption. I will not put up with that. You may have to repeat some of this stuff outside the House.

I could not care less what you will put up with.

Is there a new regulation of the House which allows a Minister to prevent a Deputy from speaking, because if there is, we should all like to hear about it.

There is no new regulation.

Why is the Minister not called to order? Why has he been allowed to engage in a running barrage while Deputy Cluskey has been trying to make his speech?

I never opened my mouth on the charges of corruption until he made a general charge of corruption.

The Minister would be far better engaged refuting the ones I have specified than engaging in this general slagging match, which we all know he is good at.

They are not against this Minister.

The charges the Deputy has made are against the Minister for Local Government, and he will answer them. I am not answerable for the charges the Deputy made.

The Minister is not?

No. It is the Minister for Local Government.

The Minister has no responsibility for the actions of other members of the Cabinet?

That is the responsibility of the Minister for Local Government.

I thought you advocated collective responsibility in Fianna Fáil. You cannot take the flowers, you know, and escape the brickbats.

I will not put up with general charges of corruption from the Deputy.

I thought the Ceann Comhairle was the judge of order in the House. Apparently that has changed now.

The Minister appears to be under the impression that by scowling and making gruff noises——

I am not scowling.

Deputy Cluskey should be allowed to make his statement. Others who want to speak, will be allowed to reply.

Let him get on with it then.

I will take my time. Is the Minister in a hurry?

Good. The questions that have been raised here, particularly and generally, are questions of deep concern to many people who have the best interests of the country at heart. There is far too much involved in permission for a particular type of development being either granted or withheld to permit this power to lie in the hands of the political head of the Department. One might say that we must accept that the Minister who exercises this power is a responsible Minister and a Minister who will weigh up all the aspects of a particular situation before giving a decision. The various interests involved clash violently. There is the question of a large sum of money going to a particular concern or a particular individual in the event of development taking place. There are the interests that concern us on this side of the House, namely, the needs of the people. Surely it is too much to have one man in the position of overruling a local authority, a local authority which has been guided by its technical experts who advise against a certain development taking place? Surely, if a Minister overrules the decision of a local authority in those circumstances, he should give reasons as to why he does so, so that people will not alone know that justice has been done but will actually see justice being done?

Unfortunately that is not the principle that prevails here and anything which will correct the present unhappy situation, such as removing this power from the Minister and giving it to an independent body, which will justify its decision, commends itself to me. As I said earlier—I repeat it now—I cited two of the many cases of which I am aware. If the Minister will avail of this opportunity of letting the people know why he overruled the local authority with regard to the development in Kilbarrack and the petrol station in Mount Pleasant and explains fully and adequately his reasons for reversing the decision taken, he will not only be doing justice to himself but he will also dispel the idea that has crept into people's minds that there is widespread corruption at the present time with regard to planning permission, particularly in this capital city.

The principal reason I wish to say a few words in this debate is that, knowing that Deputy Fitzpatrick is a good advocate, I expected he would be able to make a good case. I was not disappointed. He made a very good case though, to my way of thinking, he missed out on one or two important aspects of planning, aspects which deserve to be mentioned.

From my own experience of the operation of the Planning Act, the principal defect is that there are, in all, 87 planning authorities. It is bad enough having 27 health authorities, but I shudder at the thought of 50 more planning authorities. It is perfectly obvious that it is impossible practically to achieve uniformity between them. In my experience, there has been no uniformity as between one planning authority and another. In my opinion, some planning authorities have virtually abdicated their rights altogether. The figures given by Deputy Fitzpatrick—I assume they are accurate—show the enormous weight of work cast on the Minister and his predecessor since the Act came into operation. I am perfectly certain that, if the facts were known in regard to at least 50 per cent of applications, there would be no necessity for an appeal at all in the first instance. Many of the applications were turned down on altogether frivolous grounds or on grounds which showed no real grasp of the purpose of the Planning Acts.

In fairness, I should add that every Act, especially such a complicated measure as the Town and Regional Planning Act, is bound to cause great difficulty when it first comes into operation and bound to cause misgivings in the minds of those charged with the serious responsibility of putting it into effect. Nobody in this House regards the purpose of the Planning Act as anything other than serious.

I thought it was a weakness in Deputy Fitzpatrick's case to bring in the example of the action of the Secretary of the Department of Justice in regard to certain files which he refused to hand to the Comptroller and Auditor General. Deputy Fitzpatrick was using this to show that his general statement regarding the arbitrary powers of Ministers and Secretaries of Departments was correct. I do not think it was relevant because surely there are certain files in the Department of Justice which, for policy sake, must not see the light of day. I am sure that in so far as the Secretary, or any other secretary, may have improperly held the files, that situation can rapidly be put right.

I must say that the tone of the debate changed radically and sadly when Deputy Cluskey got to his feet. It seems to me that Deputy Cluskey would find corruption in Heaven. Whatever about the roads, the sewers were certainly opened wide in Deputy Cluskey's speech. It is not my function and, in any case, I am not familiar with the circumstances, to accept the invitation which Deputy Cluskey gave to me to reply to certain specific charges of corruption which he made in regard to certain matters within the ambit of the Minister for Local Government. Indeed, in so far as these charges also reflect on another Member of this House, I have no doubt we will hear a great deal more about them in the course of the debate.

It does us, as Members of this House, no service to make vague general charges of corruption such as Deputy Cluskey made. While I do not object to his making charges in regard to specific questions known to be within the purview of the Minister, matters with regard to which he has the facts and on which he will be able to reply in due course, I repudiate the general statement that there is corruption in regard to planning of these, either as regards the present Minister or his predecessor. In that I do not agree with Deputy Fitzpatrick that the pressures involved are such that the Minister has not been able to resist them. This, I emphatically say, has not been my experience and has not been the experience of anybody whom I know in regard to the present Minister or his predecessor, whether these pressures were political, parochial or of any other kind. So far as the present Minister for Local Government is concerned. I do not know of any Deputy of higher integrity who has come into this House.

The fear I have about the proposals in this Bill, while they are very good ones and may offer a good solution to some of the problems, is that they would lead to the creation of a new Department to be known as the Department of Planning. It is obvious that if the members of the proposed board, the judge and his assessors, were able to discharge their functions in accordance with the stipulations of the Bill, they would require to be given a very large sum of money. They would require a very considerable staff as well and we know that when staff begins to grow, it is not downwards but upwards that is the development.

When Deputy Fitzpatrick suggests a simple procedure, this is a praiseworthy sentiment. I agree with many of the things he said with regard to the present appeals system. He cites the case of the objector who has no right of audience. That is something that should be remedied. In general, most of the sentiments expressed by Deputy Fitzpatrick seemed to me to be well thought out and worthy of serious consideration.

Whether the proposals put forward by him would not lead to a more costly system of deciding appeals is the one matter which I have great doubt. Deputy Fitzpatrick thinks they would not. I think they would and, if I may repeat what I said when Deputy Fitzpatrick was not here, the root of the matter lies in the fact that there are 87 authorities where there should possibly be not more than half a dozen. If there were only about half a dozen authorities, the need for the present enormous number of appeals would be obviated and the need for the big machinery suggested in this Bill as being necessary would also be obviated.

I do not wish to say too much that would impinge on the province of the Minister for Local Government. Surely the fundamental purpose of planning is to preserve the natural and aesthetic beauty of our towns, cities and countryside? Surely that is the object of all planning, all appeals and all decisions? There is a lot of Ireland left to destroy. A lot of it has already been destroyed. If I were satisfied that the machinery suggested in the Bill was the best machinery for the prevention of the further destruction of our country, for the preservation of what is beautiful and for the development of what is aesthetically and economically desirable, I would vote for it. I think it is not quite the right method of attack but I also think that great credit is due to Deputy Fitzpatrick for the care with which he prepared his brief, for his speech for which he deserves every credit personally and on which I would like to compliment him.

Mr. Barrett

I am very glad to note the Minister's reaction to this Bill. The only note of recrimination I have to offer on it is that in 1963 when the present Act was passing through the House, Fine Gael put forward proposals exactly similar to those contained in this Bill at that time. The Government, at that stage, rejected those proposals. Had they accepted them, it would not have been necessary to introduce this Bill which has been so carefully prepared and placed before the House. I gather from the Minister for Health that he is satisfied with the principles put forward in this Bill and that his main objection is that it might lead to great expense. I do not think that is a very valid argument. What we are seeking to do is to replace one piece of machinery with another. We are replacing the local government inspector who might go to Cork, Galway, or elsewhere, by a judge and two assessors. That is about the only extra expense involved. Let us take it that even if there were greater expense involved, this is no valid argument against passing a Bill of this nature because this Bill has been introduced for a very specific purpose which has been rather highlighted by the allegations made by Deputy Cluskey.

The less said about those the better.

Mr. Barrett

The Minister can rest assured of this, that not alone is it important that justice should be done but it should be seen to be done. At the moment, plainly it does not appear to the average person who is involved in a town planning appeal that justice has been done. I have been brought very closely in touch with the public approach to matters of this nature and I have been struck by the fact, although I have been in public life for over 20 years, that neither as a lawyer nor as a public man have I ever been approached by any person to do a deal with a judge. Nobody has ever suggested he could approach a judge to get a judge to alter his decision or so to make his decision as to suit any particular person. Time and again, and I am sure this has been the experience of every other Deputy, I have been approached by people interested in appeals under the Planning Act. They ask you to communicate with the Minister with a view to getting the Minister to make a certain decision. That shows how the public mind reacts to the present machinery in regard to appeals.

When the Principal Act was being introduced, we on the Fine Gael benches expressed our extreme dissatisfaction with it. We warned the Government that the people would be dissatisfied with it. It has been the experience of most Members, I am sure, that the people are dissatisfied with it.

I do not want to refer at any length to the fact, already referred to by Deputy Fitzpatrick, that the Association of Municipal Authorities at their annual congress unanimously called for the introduction of legislation of this nature. It is absolutely essential, in my view, for the resuscitation of public belief in the machinery of appeals that something like this should be done, because when the appeals are carried out in the fashion referred to by Deputy Fitzpatrick and Deputy Cluskey, there is bound to remain in the mind of the public a feeling that some political pull might have been used or, in fact, had been used. I might say, without making any allegations of corruption, because I do not know enough about the case, that many decisions have been made on appeal which to me appeared to be unsustainable and to have some elements about them which will always remain a mystery to me.

It is a bad thing when a Minister, as the political head of a Department, can make a decision in private. He can send down his inspector and his inspector can make any inquiries he likes and he must receive the evidence given to him and he must report to the Minister, but the Minister is not bound by what the inspector tells him. That is one of the things which interferes mostly with public confidence. There are many anomalies in the present situation which cause grave misgivings. For instance, not alone has the Minister absolute power when appeals come in but in his own absolute discretion, the Minister for Local Government, having determined an appeal, can proceed to order the appellant to pay such costs as the Minister thinks fit, to the Minister for Local Government. That is the sort of thing which should not exist in the State at present. This is administrative law at its worst.

It is about time we followed the practice adopted in the countries to which Deputy Fitzpatrick referred, to afford the public protection from arbitrary decisions of a political figure. I see no good reason why the Government should refuse to accept the suggestions put forward in this Bill. Since the Principal Act was introduced in 1963, as already pointed out by Deputy Fitzpatrick, the Government have accepted the principle put forward in this Bill, in the Redundancy Payments Act. It was not their original intention to do so because the Bill they put before the House did not contain the proposals which eventually were enshrined in it as a result of the advocacy of Deputy Jones in this House. For that reason, I earnestly appeal to the Government to carry into this particular sphere of legislation proposals similar to those enshrined in the Redundancy Payments Act. Nothing can be lost by it; a little more expense will be involved, but it will be money well spent inasmuch as it will revive public confidence in town planning appeals generally. It will give each person who has an appeal the feeling that he has been fairly and justly dealt with. It will prevent corruption, if there has been corruption; if corruption does not occur, it will prevent in this House the making of allegations which have no foundation.

I am not adjudicating on the allegations made by Deputy Cluskey. I look forward with interest to hearing the Minister and Deputy Gallagher dealing with this matter themselves. The introduction of the very outright and forthright allegations by Deputy Cluskey has invested this debate with a piquancy and importance which we who introduced the measure did not expect it would get in its course through the House. Anyway, it is important that we should get rid of the atmosphere in which such allegations can be thrown around; worse still, if allegations are founded, it is imperative that we should get rid of the system which allows such a thing to happen in our State in 1968.

Debate adjourned.
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