asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he is aware of the qualifying conditions imposed upon applicants for contributory old age pensions who were insured under the National Health Acts for many years prior to the passage of the Social Welfare Act; if he will take steps to abolish the existing regulation whereby only 20 years national health stamps are counted; and if he will arrange for the full period for which an old age pension applicant has cards stamped to be taken into consideration.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Contributory Old Age Pensions.
57.
The Social Welfare Acts provide that an average test of contributions paid or credited is one of the contribution conditions for old age (contributory) pension to be satisfied by Social Insurance contributions. Contributions under the former National Health Insurance Acts prior to 1953 not being Social Insurance contributions would not in the normal course reckon towards satisfying these conditions.
As a transitional arrangement regulations enable National Health Insurance contributions to be taken into account for pension purposes at an enhanced value, each contribution counting as two for the average test. These regulations also prescribe that the maximum period over which the average can be calculated is the last 20 years before the person reached the age of 70.
It is considered that these arrangements provide a reasonable basis for persons to qualify for old age (contributory) pension by virtue of insurance contributions which, it must be emphasised, did not contain any element in respect of that pension.
The Minister must be aware that people in this category are at a complete loss to understand why it is, when they have been stamping a card all their lives, they should be denied the full benefit of all the stamps for which they have paid since they started to work. Surely the Minister appreciates that the somewhat obscure explanation he gave in regard to the various elements which go to make up the weekly contribution is lost upon the contributors? In justice, and in view of the fact that it could not represent a very great impost on the Exchequer, would he not favourably reconsider this, with a view to providing full payment for all stamps in respect of the full period in which any old age pensioner has had cards stamped instead of the present limited period of 20 years?
The arrangements made originally for the transitional period when the contributory pension first came into effect were quite generous. They have been amended on a few occasions since to give the maximum benefit to persons who had what was known as a national insurance record, giving each contribution double its value. The period was extended from ten years to 15 years and later to 20 years. This takes in practically every person in respect of whom records are available.
Unfortunately, it does not.
How many years are necessary to qualify for the maximum pension?
There is a basic contribution condition requiring an average of not less than 48 contributions paid or credited over the ten, 15 or 20 years prior to age 70. Long before there was any question of contributory pensions being included in this stamp, they gave them the enhanced value of two for each one, and this was very generous to meet the case.
If we are to accept what the Minister says—and I do not—that this virtually covers a 20-year period, there are very few left, or in his opinion, there are very few left. If this is so, would the Minister not think it would not be beyond the limits of generosity to extend the scheme so that these people would be included?
That was examined, and we found very great difficulty in getting any reliable records.
Surely the Minister is aware that a relatively small number of people are affected by this? Most of them are people who, though they have a long and good insurance record, may have left insurable employment within the past ten, 15 or 20 years, before they reached 70 years of age. They would be the people who would be affected, and in those circumstances, would the Minister not have the whole matter reconsidered?
I am quite sympathetic, but I do notice, looking at the file, that the last occasion it was extended to 20 years, it was thoroughly examined, and this was considered to be the longest period practicable in order to be able to catch up on records which in some cases were very flimsy.
Your records are O.K. since 1934.
Each local agent has his 1934 records.