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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 7 May 1968

Vol. 234 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Resolution No. 9—General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.
—(Minister for Finance).

Before I reported progress on Thursday last, I was dealing with social welfare benefits and I had not time to draw attention to the fact that it is proposed to give the increase of 7/6 a week to social welfare recipients from the beginning of August next in the case of non-contributory old age, widows and orphans and blind pensions. The insurance benefits generally will likewise be increased by the same amount but it is to be regretted that recipients of these benefits will have to wait until January, 1969. It is ridiculous that people who are receiving these benefits and who are in dire need of this increase should be asked to wait for over nine months before payment is received. I would ask the Minister to have second thoughts about this and to give these payments in August in line with other increases.

The Minister referred to the Old IRA and said that the existing limitation whereby only the first £80 of their pension or allowance was disregarded in calculating means for old age pension purposes will be abolished so that the entire amount will in future be disregarded. I did not hear the Minister say when exactly this would come into operation. In the case of people who have already lost the benefit, will that be taken into account? Will the Minister consider making the benefit retrospective for people who in the past 12 months have been caught by the limitation?

I welcome the increase from 10/- to £1 per head under the mountain lamb scheme because many people in one section of my constituency, which is a mountainous area, derive their livelihood, in the main, from mountain sheep and lambs. This increase was long overdue and it is a matter which had been raised in this House previously.

The Minister also proposes to relax the rule which debars a farmer from claiming rate relief for workers whose land valuation is £5 or more and in future the employment rebate may be changed in respect of workers whose land valuation does not exceed £15. Carlow County Council, of which I am a member, and other councils, have by resolution called on the Minister to grant a relief in these cases. As far as my memory serves me, we asked for relief in the region of £34 and I am sorry that the Minister has only increased the amount up to £15. I do not believe that the difference between £5 and £15 is going to be of great benefit in these cases. I should like to hear from the Minister what his assessment is of the number who will benefit.

In regard to income tax, like the majority of people, I was disappointed that the Minister did not increase the personal allowance. By today's standards, the personal allowance of £6 10s could have been increased; £6 10s today is not a great deal of money. For single people and for young people—teenagers, perhaps — working in cities, paying for digs and trying to keep themselves, an allowance of £6 10s is not of much benefit and paying income tax on anything over that sum is, I believe, a great hardship. This is a form of taxation long overdue for revision and I am rather surprised that the Minister did not see his way to giving some kind of relief by way of increasing the tax free allowance which has remained static for quite a number of years. We all know the increase in the cost of living. We all know that £6 10s today has nothing like the value it had five or six years ago. I am sure I am not alone in being disappointed that the Minister had no regard to this when he was framing his Budget and failed to give any relief.

He has made certain arrangements in regard to Schedule A and Schedule B tax but he did not go far enough; he did not increase the personal allowance. I think it was two weeks ago I listened to a member of the Fianna Fáil Party describing the granting of the special increase of £100 in the personal allowance for a married man in the first year of marriage as a wedding present from the Minister. The only comment I have to make on that is that I do not think it is a wedding present from the Minister; it is a wedding present from the taxpayers because it is from the taxpayers the money comes to do these things.

If I do not do something, I am to blame and, if I do something, then the credit is the taxpayers'.

Of course, it is. The Minister should have learned that long ago. It is a fundamental part of the Minister's financial make-up.

If the resources are available and if they are handled properly, there is no reason at all why there should not be benefits, such as this, in a Budget. Much greater benefits have, indeed, been given in the Budget. However, I am convinced that this is a Budget that looks well on paper when one looks at the headlines. When one comes down to the small print and finds things such as I have mentioned, like social welfare benefits being increased in August and January next respectively, the Minister is not really giving away so much at all. He could have afforded, I think, to have been much more generous, considering, as I mentioned earlier, the amount he is gathering in in taxation under the old type of taxation and the amount he is getting under the new heading of turnover tax and wholesale tax. That is all additional revenue to what we had a number of years ago.

I referred to the 7/6d. There was some criticism made here by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach that in 1954 the increase was only 2/6d. In 1954, 2/6d was more valuable than 7/6 is in 1968. Indeed, there can be no comparison when one remembers the increases that have taken place in the cost of living.

In dealing with health services the Minister stated:

The cost of the health services is rising so rapidly that it is necessary to consider alternative methods of finance in order to reduce the amounts now charged on the taxpayer and the ratepayer.

I remember a number of years back—I was a member of Carlow County Council—when this health scheme was introduced. In our county we called the card the green card. I do not know what they call it in Dublin; it may be blue or white. I remember we were told at that time—I think it was by the then Minister for Health—that this scheme would not cost more than 2/-or 2s 6d in the £. We are a long way from 2/- or 2s 6d in the £ in relation to the charges on the rates in the various counties at the moment. If my memory serves me correctly, in County Carlow, which is a comparatively small county, the cost of the services is somewhere in the region of 24/- in the £. That is a long way from the original amount we were led to believe at that time was the maximum the ratepayers would be expected to bear.

I am glad, however, to see that the Minister is now convinced that we, on this side of the House, have been correct in our policy. As a result of the policy laid down by Deputy T. O'Higgins, the Minister has now seen the light and is prepared to have another look at the type of health services and the financing of those health services which we, on this side of the House, have adumbrated, and I trust it will not be long until the Minister takes a decision on this. He should not have too much difficulty. Deputy O'Higgins was at the time, I think, Minister for Health and I am sure the ideas he had and the records he compiled are still available in the Department.

I want for one moment to go back to social welfare. I overlooked mentioning one matter. I am not quite certain whether it is proper to raise it in this debate, but the Minister for Finance might discuss the situation with his colleague, the Minister for Social Welfare. This is something I come up against a good deal; it is the question of having 26 stamps in order to come into benefit. Where there is seasonal employment—we have a great deal of that in my constituency—a number of people lose unemployment benefit because they have not got 26 stamps. Perhaps the Minister would use his good offices to persuade his colleague to reduce the number of stamps necessary to qualify from 26 to 20. If that were done, it would resolve the major difficulty where seasonal workers are concerned. In the area I represent, there are people working in the Sugar Company and on various campaigns; they may have only 23 or 24 weeks work. At the end of that period, they find themselves short of stamps. I came across one particular case in which a man was disqualified because he was one stamp short; he had only 25 stamps. I am referring now to seasonal work. Perhaps the Minister would bear this in mind and discuss the matter with his colleague in the Cabinet.

It would be wrong, I suppose, to speak in a Budget debate without referring to housing. I do not believe that enough money has been made available for housebuilding. In Carlow there is a waiting list of people who are clamouring for houses. We have finished a scheme and plans for a further scheme are with the Department. However, that scheme will not completely solve the housing problem.

I cannot allow the occasion to pass without mentioning that the Second Programme for Economic Expansion provided for the completion of 13,000 houses a year. Last year, for instance, the number of houses provided was in the region of 12,000, a figure which fell short of the figure mentioned in the Second Programme.

The Minister for Local Government told local authorities to increase rents in order to subsidise housebuilding. Recently, rents were increased in Carlow. This has caused a good deal of concern among tenants in the urban area. The reason for this increase in rents should be made perfectly clear. The tenants concerned will find themselves in the position that, having paid the increased rents and the increased prices of various necessary commodities, they will be unable to procure the extra little comforts to which they would be as entitled as everybody else.

On the occasion of a Budget we in this House listen to the Minister speaking of revenue and the money available for various services. Last week, Deputy Spring said that the Department of Social Welfare needed to be shaken up. I want to say that in regard to the payment of reconstruction grants and building grants there is far too great delay in the Department of Local Government. I know of cases where people who had carried out reconstruction work, the material for which had been supplied by local traders, were being pressed for payment for the material. The fact that the material had not been paid for was the fault not of the owner of the house, but of the Department that did not remit the grants. There was delay in the payment of the grants and consequential delay in payment for the materials purchased from local traders. This is grossly unfair. When a grant is sanctioned there should not be protracted delay in payment. I suggest that there should not be delay in inspection either.

I do not think this is relevant on the Budget. It is relevant on the Estimates. It is a minor matter that could be raised on the Estimates but certainly not on the Budget.

I am merely drawing the attention of the Minister for Finance to the fact that if money is available for reconstruction grants it should be paid without undue delay to those to whom it is due.

Having dealt with social welfare benefits, housing and the increases for mountain lambs, there are very few other points that I wish to make at the moment. I mentioned last week that the only Financial Resolution that we on this side of the House voted against was the Resolution whereby the tax on petrol and diesel oil would be increased. Obviously, we should vote against that tax because it will have the effect of increasing transport costs for business firms and the travelling expenses of business representatives. Overheads are sufficiently high for business firms today without this further taxation.

With regard to the increases in the taxes on beer and cigarettes and under other headings in this Budget I, personally, do not object to these increases. The commodities concerned are luxuries. I would never object to this type of taxation as long as I felt that the social welfare classes, widows, orphans and old age pensioners, would derive some benefit from it. All I hope is that the revenue from these taxes will be channelled in the appropriate direction and that it is these people who will benefit. I would again ask the Minister to see if there is any possibility of bringing forward the date on which the increases in social welfare payments will come into operation, so that people will not have to wait until 1969 to receive the benefits provided in the Budget.

Many comments have been made about the Budget. Naturally, there can be some words of praise for the Budget. Of course, one can make suggestions as to what should or should not have been done. Bearing in mind all that has been said, I find it incumbent on me to mention a few things which have been adverted to by the Minister in presenting the Budget.

At column 47 of the Official Report of 23rd April, the Minister referred to industrial relations. It struck me, having listened to him and having read what he said, that he certainly has not exercised his influence within the Cabinet to ensure that industrial relations would get off to a good start in this part of Ireland. There is an opportunity for the State to set the good example in that connection. One must wonder at the failure of the Government to ensure good industrial relations throughout the State and semi-State concerns. There is no denying the fact that industrial relations in these bodies are anything but satisfactory. The example of the ESB only highlights the matter. I have had personal experience of negotiations on behalf of workers in the ESB. The unfortunate individuals purporting to represent the ESB found themselves unable to negotiate and had to go back to their board of directors for instructions. The trade union representatives never had the pleasure of meeting these gentlemen on the board. There is no point in dealing with people unable to negotiate.

There was a similar situation in respect of Board na Móna. On more than one occasion the people negotiating on behalf of Bord na Móna were about to concur with suggestions made by a conciliation officer or were prepared to make concessions to trade union officials but had to go back to see their superiors and next morning they returned to say "We cannot agree." It is about time the Government looked seriously at this situation. If they cannot set the good example themselves, they should stop talking about industrial relations, which are diabolical in a number of State and semi-State concerns today.

Government spokesmen are not right in talking about industrial relations until such time as they set their own house in order. One has only to refer to the hopeless situation existing in respect of our hospital services and the manner in which nursing and non-nursing personnel are being treated by the powers that be. They say they cannot improve wages and conditions without the authority of the Minister for Health and the Minister for Health says he cannot improve them without the authority of the Minister for Finance.

Surely the time has come for us to have regard to the way in which our people have been treated by these new-found industrialists we saw fit to bring in here?

The Deputy will appreciate that details are not appropriate on the General Resolution?

It has already been referred to. I have read a number of speeches made by Members of the Government Party who took pride in the grants and loans given to such people. I believe there should be stipulations with these grants. However, bearing in mind what you have said, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, all I can do is to invite the Minister to read the leading article in The Kerryman of 4th May. Then he will get possibly an instruction on good relations and certainly a pointer as to how people should be treated by those who take money from us because they are prepared to set up industries here. The Minister is all-powerful in the matter of operating the country's finances. He should ensure that those who seek to obtain money from the Exchequer in the form of loans and grants will not neglect to give recognition to our working-class people.

On 30th April the Minister was asked by one of my colleagues, Deputy O'Connell, why he refused to meet representatives of the Irish Transport and General Workers' Union prior to his preparation of the Budget, and the Minister replied, at column 498 of the Official Report:

The topics on which I was asked to receive a deputation were, because of their far-reaching budgetary implications and the wide public they concerned, of a broad political nature. I did not consider it appropriate to receive a pre-Budget deputation on such topics from an individual trade union.

There were a number of supplementaries and the Minister finally ended by saying:

I have been a friend all my life of the Irish Transport and General Workers' Union and I have been of assistance to individual members of that union at all levels from time to time, but I am saddened by the political antics of the present leadership of that union.

The Minister says this because he finds some people do not agree with him politically. Apparently he does not realise that a considerable number of members of that union lent support to him and continue to do so in connection with his political activities, but none of them would agree that, because the Minister believes people should not feel in a certain way, nobody should open his mouth. What a state we are coming to. Although the Minister said he has been of assistance to individual members of the union at all levels, he cannot be unmindful of the fact that individual members of the union at all levels have been of assistance to him. It was extremely unfair to take advantage of this House to cast aspersions on any person who finds himself an elected representative of the ITGWU. We had the young Deputy from Galway, Deputy Molloy, advocating that the officials representing the trade union movement should not indulge in politics and that we should have regard to the American system. It is all very well for a young man like Deputy Molloy to say this. He can be excused. There is no excuse for the Minister. If the Minister is sincere in what he says about his contact with the union, he will not be unmindful of the dictum of James Connolly, one time General Secretary of the Union, who was executed in 1916. He preached consistently that you cannot divorce the trade union movement from the political arm of the nation. It was James Connolly who succeeded in bringing about the formation of the Labour Party. It was James Connolly who advocated the formation of the Labour Party in 1912, before Fianna Fáil were thought of, at a conference in Clonmel.

Why? Because he as a trade unionist realised the necessity of having the trade union movement in the political arm. No one need apologise for that. I submit that it is wrong for the Minister, simply because he feels there are people who will not toe his particular Party line, to denigrate them and say they are indulging in all sorts of antics. This conveys to me something I have often felt about the Fianna Fáil Party, and wondered if it were true. It conveys to me that unless you go along with them, you dare not express your views. If we allow them to get away with it, the day may perhaps come when we cannot express our views and must toe the line, but that is not the type of Government that any Irishman or Irish-woman would aspire to have.

Before I go away from the antics of the Government and the Minister, let me say that it may be more appropriate to talk about the antics of the Government and the Minister rather than the antics of some officials of a trade union. Could we have from the Minister or his associates an indication as to when the working class men and women in this part of Ireland are to get away from the low wages which are now in existence? There is no indication in the Minister's Budget speech of any grandiose future, or any progressive action in that regard, other than the lip service which was paid to the suggestions of the NIEC in relation to the employment situation. I have yet to hear the Minister say how he proposes, if need be, to give effect to the NIEC Report on Full Employment.

Significantly enough, while the Minister was found to be giving a well-deserved 7s 6d to the social welfare beneficiaries, there was also the other side of the coin where it was found that he was giving further relief to the people in the surtax bracket. I submit that if we are sincere about tackling the problem that exists at present of increased unemployment—and this is undoubtedly true; we have more unemployment this year than we have had for some years and we have a dearth of housing accommodation and a great need for further improved social welfare benefits — there is a need for something realistic to be done. There have been many promises in connection with the health services. We must ask ourselves what can we do. Surely the people in the surtax bracket can afford to wait until the real problems are tackled?

The Minister put a 1d on the pint. I realise he must find the tax somewhere. Naturally he must find the money to do even what he did for social welfare. Frankly I was surprised to find he did nothing in relation to the price of spirits. I know he increased the price of imported spirits other than spirits of UK origin, but I believe there would not be any great objection to a further tax on home-produced and UK spirits to give more assistance to social welfare beneficiaries and improved health services.

A number of things were said about the Budget speech by Members on the Fianna Fáil benches. I am particularly mindful of the performance here last Thursday between the Minister and Deputy Dowling. The promptings and responses were most intriguing indeed. It certainly brought about a situation in the city at which many people are wondering, particularly those interested in housing. Deputy Dowling took advantage of this House to mention a programme on RTE each evening concerning the housing problem. He indicated, as reported in the Irish Times, that he could do something wonderful about this entire problem. He indicated that he was in a position to solve the problems of all the people. He said that the figures mentioned on television were wrong.

With regard to the 250 cases mentioned by one gentleman on television, he said that if those people had come to him, he would have got them houses instantly: instant housing. This undoubtedly was a Fianna Fáil gimmick and it has since transpired to be so, because although it was reasonably well advocated in the Evening Press and the Irish Times when it came to the question of giving effect to it, we found that this was not done. There is no such thing as people getting instant houses or instant flats from Dublin Corporation because they are not there.

I submit that it is wrong for a representative of the Government Party to give the impression that this is possible, particularly when you bear in mind the great controversy which is going on about the number of people seeking accommodation and when you have a Member of this House getting up and saying that if this set of people——

It was quite clear what he meant—that on the facts as disclosed in one case they were entitled to be housed immediately.

It is not quite clear, and it is about time that the Fianna Fáil representatives started to make themselves clear to the people. It is not clear. It is absolutely untrue, never mind saying it is incorrect. It is absolutely untrue for anyone, the Minister or a Fianna Fáil Deputy, to say there is instant housing available to Dublin Corporation.

No one said that.

That is what was said.

It was not: be fair.

Deputy Dowling said that if those 250 persons came to the Deputy Dowling bureau, he would set about arranging houses for them immediately.

He did not: be fair.

There is no economic accommodation available for anyone.

He said about those 250 people that he would investigate them fully. He said about one particular case that if the facts were as disclosed, they were entitled to be housed immediately.

The report is there. He did not say anything of the kind. Indeed, when Deputy Dowling was challenged about this last Friday night at the Housing Committee of Dublin Corporation, he saw fit to get on his bike on Saturday morning and try to change it. I do not believe the newspaper reporters were asleep last Thursday when taking the record. The records are there and I submit it was a deliberate attempt on the part of Fianna Fáil to introduce a gimmick at the Minister's prompting. He fed Deputy Dowling on that.

I did not.

It is reported.

That is another misquotation.

It is reported that——

Deputy Dowling made his own speech.

The Minister's prompting is reported.

I did not prompt him. He made his own speech and he was entitled to do so.

What about column 779? We have that here.

It has been suggested that there are only 5,000-odd names on the approved waiting list of Dublin Corporation. That is intended to give a picture of the situation.

Deputy Mullen is joining the bandwagon of those who want to trade in human misery. That is what the Deputy is at.

I have never traded in human misery. It is untrue to say so. The Minister knows that it is untrue that there are only 5,000-odd names on the waiting list. It is one thing to have one's name on the list. It is another thing to get one's name on the list. What I say is that we should state the facts. I am not using the word "homeless": I do not agree that there are 10,000 homeless. Is the Minister satisfied with that?

However, I submit that the figure of 5,000-odd names as being on the approved waiting list is not a complete and accurate indication of the housing situation in Dublin. That is what I am saying, and I stand over it.

I am conscious that there are several types of people looking for houses. I am mindful of the fact that the situation still pertains in Dublin whereby a single man has no chance of getting accommodation. A married man with no children has no chance of getting accommodation. A married man with one child has a chance of getting accommodation if they are living in a very small room, or if they are living in overcrowded conditions in a corporation house, as sub-tenants, where there is a total of more than 12 persons. That is the situation today. There is no denying this. The only place that a married couple with one child can be housed, up to the moment and for some time to come, is in a two-roomed flat in Ballymun. Let us tell the people the truth about this. What I have said is the actual position.

I am also mindful of the fact that the Minister for Local Government— now that we are talking about housing —instituted a new regulation which has brought about a situation that a family who go to live with their in-laws in a corporation house—whether it be a family of three, four, five, six or what have you—must, after 1st July, 1967, have a licence to live in such a house. If they have not a licence—which is not generally known —they will not be housed by Dublin Corporation because Dublin Corporation are prohibited from getting the maximum subsidy from the Department of Local Government. To what extent is the Minister for Finance interested in that? It is a matter, I submit, to which the Minister should apply his mind.

Mention has been made of the provision in the Budget which has been described by somebody as a "wedding present". I saw no reference in the Minister's Budget speech to what it costs any young man and woman who find that they have no chance of getting housing accommodation because of the long list which is already there, who must tackle the problem and find some other manner and means of obtaining a house such as setting about to buy one. The deposit required in that connection is £500, £600, £700: that is well known. Not only that, but the repayments are very high. Along with that, they have to arrange for furnishing the place on the "never-never". This is the type of picture that is in existence.

On the other hand, we have Deputy Dowling advocating that people should be encouraged to buy their own homes. Again, through the medium of the newspapers, Deputy Dowling has indicated that it is possible that a number of houses will be built by Dublin Corporation for which the deposit will be only £27. This has been questioned at Dublin Corporation Housing Committee. There is confusion. However, again, it has been published in the newspapers—"wrong impressions", "gullible people", as the Minister said in connection with another person last week—and this has been issued, holusbolus, to the people by the spokesmen of Fianna Fáil. No indication has yet been given that any serious effort will be made by the Minister or his colleagues to ensure that the deposit will be £27 and that some check will be made as to where all the money is going by way of the selling of land for the purpose of development.

I have had people say to me that there is land for sale at the moment in various parts of Dublin, but at a price. I have yet to see evidence given by anybody, whether he be a Minister of State or a businessman, of his intention to make land available at a reasonable price. Let me go further. I have yet to see where any big businessman will set about making money available at a reasonable rate to Dublin Corporation for the purpose of building houses. If I am not mistaken, Deputy Dowling said in the course of his speech that 18/11d out of every Dublin Corporation £ is wrapped up in the cause of building. That is no great credit to this Government. This is an indication of the Government's inability to control the situation properly.

Likewise, in the course of his speech on this debate, Deputy Dowling said that, having regard to all that had been done, housing-wise, progress had been brought to such a stage that we were nearly reaching the end of the housing problem, but, two columns further on in his speech, he said that we shall always have a housing problem with us. Where do we go from there? I am satisfied that there will always be a housing problem with us for the main reason that we in Dublin have taken on the housing of the entire country. The Government have neglected to set up housing development in a big way in Cork, Limerick and other centres. We all know that people are flocking towards Dublin and that this is one of the reasons that——

That is the tragedy.

——we shall always have this housing problem. There is no indication in the Minister's Budget Statement as to how this problem will be overcome.

I have already spoken about what the Minister has again done for people in the surtax income bracket. Might I ask the Minister if he will ever set about giving relief to the people in the other income bracket, the people living in tenant purchase houses or living in corporation houses on a differential rents system? They are assessed on their earnings and, indeed, if they are setting out to buy a house under the SDA they are assessed in relation to the grant and are not given it. Does the Minister intend to do anything about that? Surely it is something that is crying out for attention?

The Minister has done something that is appreciated by all for social welfare beneficiaries, but, more often than not, these good things are minimised by the inquisition that attaches to them. I would entreat the Minister to have a word with his colleague to put an end to the inquisition that has been carried on in the Department of Social Welfare. A number of people have been saddled with having to fill in numerous forms before they get benefit. I have in mind the case of a lady who is living in my area, who has been living in Dublin for perhaps 35 years, but who in order to get benefit recently had to submit evidence of the fact that she was born in County Meath. That is the type of social welfare procedure that is associated with benefit applications.

I must say in respect of this Budget that I have to express disappointment at the Minister's failure to bring about something positive in connection with the improvement of the Health Act. Words cannot cover discrepancies in relation to this matter. We all know this to be true. There is a considerable number in Dublin alone. There are thousands of people who are getting nothing from the Health Act but are paying for it through the nose. Still it remains the same.

I am aware that all these things cost money. The Minister well knows that from these benches he has got support and his colleagues have got support in the matter of imposing taxes designed to bring relief in matters such as health, education, and social welfare. We will continue to adopt this line but we do believe that we should not be asked to gild the lily, to pretend that everything is all right when it is not. I hold that the time is not opportune to give relief to the many who have so much when there are so many have-nots.

In conclusion, I should like to ask the Minister to give serious thought to the bringing about of a change of attitude in the various Departments in the field of industrial relations. As I said at the start, if one does not set a good example, you will never get the others to follow. It is rank impertinence on the part of any Minister to talk about industrial relations and say what they should be when he neglects to bring about a change of attitude in these relations himself.

When introducing the Budget, the Minister said at one part of his speech that he wanted to emphasise the fact that the Government proposals were largely covered by the Capital Budget. In fact, he went so far as to say that the Capital Budget proposed by the Government was the principal element in their financial policy. It is a pity, when he felt that way, that he did not follow up an announcement made by me some 12 years ago that we should have a separate Capital Budget discussion, a separate Capital Budget introduced and discussed by the House and by the people as a whole, because it is undoubted that there is far too little appreciation abroad of the effect the Capital Budget of any Government for any financial year can have on our whole economy.

If one looks back now, it is easy to see that the inflation of 1965, the Government-stimulated inflation of that year, was caused almost entirely in its initial stages by the manner in which the Fianna Fáil Government of that day failed to appreciate that a Capital Budget jump of some 25 per cent in the public capital expenditure of that year was something that the economy could not digest. It was a jump from £78½ million in 1963-64 to almost £98 million in 1964-65, solely for political reasons. The manner in which the Government abandoned discipline of the programme they had announced, abandoned it for political reasons, showed that they did not really understand where the economic programme should go at all. We must, therefore, remember in talking about capital, that the public capital expenditure is approximately directly 50 per cent of our total domestic fixed investment.

Indeed, if we take into account that in addition to that, the inducements of grants and loans that are made available mean that our public capital expenditure can fairly be described as being responsible for 75 per cent of our total domestic fixed investment. In those circumstances, it is quite wrong that the capital expenditure proposed by a Government in any year should be drowned in the current budgetary interest, which, naturally enough as things are, is of some concern to the ordinary people and that is picked up on that account by the newspapers because they are concerned with what is news to their readers.

It would go a long way towards having a much more coherent understanding of problems of capital formation and investment if the Capital Budget were taken separately, as I announced it was going to be taken in 1957. We must consider it, too, from the point of view not only of the interest it would arouse and the effect it would have directly on the economy but from the point of view of the cost of servicing it. In 1956-57, the cost of interest in servicing the public debt was £10.859 million. The contribution made to sinking fund at that time was £5 million. The gross total involved in servicing the public debt was then £16 million. Interest from productive advances was £6 million and the net cost, therefore, of servicing the public debt was approximately £10 million.

The calculations this year are quite clear in so far as the servicing of the public debt is concerned directly. Interest this year will cost over £42½ million and sinking fund will cost £21 million, so we are faced this year with a gross bill for the servicing of the public debt of £63½ million compared with a bill of £16 million 12 years ago. It is a matter for us to consider whether we are getting value for that increase. Certainly, the escalation of that increase is something that makes it abundantly clear that there should be an objective discussion on it, away and apart from the natural discussion on current Budget services.

Until the finance accounts come in July, we shall not be able to tell what the return from productive advances from the Exchequer will be this year. The best one can do, therefore, on this side of the House in estimating that is to take the figure made public in the last finance accounts, and that figure was approximately £10 million. It seems therefore that the net cost, allowing for some increase on that £10 million, of servicing the public capital debt, after taking account of productive advances, has gone up approximately five times in the past ten to 12 years. It is a staggering increase, from £10 million odd to £53 million based on last year's figures—call it £50 million, allowing for the change which probably has arisen since the last figures were published. It is a staggering increase, one which most definitely requires more than the appraisal of public capital expenditure which has been indicated by the Minister.

I hope that that appraisal of public capital expenditure will find its way back to this House in the form of an objective White Paper which can be discussed by the House on some other occasion in a manner that will enable us to see how this increase in capital expenditure in 1965 was one of the causes which brought down economic growth and is one of the things which now mean that the servicing of the national debt provides such a very large item in our current Budget.

Deputy Mullen referred to the reason given by the Minister for Finance for refusing to see a deputation from the IT&GWU. I want to say categorically to the Minister that the excuse given by him in that respect does not hold water. When I was Minister for Finance, I often received deputations and listened to them. I told them at the very beginning that these were matters to be considered in relation to the Budget and therefore they excused me from making any comment. I felt it was the duty of the Minister for Finance to hear the views of all responsible people who offered to put them to him. It is outrageous, in my opinion, for a Minister for Finance to refuse to listen to the views which an important body of people in the community wish to put before him, regardless of whether they are on the employee or the employer side. If the complaint had been that they felt the Minister had been silent when they went to see him, then, of course, I would agree with the Minister, but that is not the suggestion. I am sorry to see the Minister leaving the House because I wished to put deliberately to him that the Minister funked seeing them. It was his duty to see them. Perhaps he might have kept his counsel to himself but he should have seen them and listened to what they had to say.

This year follows a year in which we had a surplus of £10 million in our balance of payments—a surplus which was added to by a very substantial capital inflow. Because of the essentially private and confidential nature of the components of that capital inflow, no one on this side of the House can ever be informed of what it comprised, just as the NIEC could not similarly be informed. Though we welcome that capital inflow if it is comprised of firm money, we must at the same time bear in mind that it is something on which we cannot depend permanently.

The balance of payments surplus last year was one that, as the NIEC say, was founded on an unreal basis. The sources and the influences that provided that surplus are not likely to be here this year and indeed some of them will affect adversely the 1968 position. It is common knowledge, commonly accepted throughout the country, that, apart from the figures of the Central Statistics Office — in which the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach, I suppose, has a finger, having regard to the fact that the Office is controlled by the Taoiseach's Department — we oversold last year many of our cattle.

The agricultural census report for this year shows that we have 113,000 fewer cattle in the country in 1968 than at the beginning of 1967 and that, at the same time, cow and in-calf heifer populations between them show a decrease. The only effect of that, of course, was to boost temporarily the balance of trade—to boost it in 1967 at the expense of 1968. We must remember that when considering the position for this year. In addition, in 1967 we enjoyed very favourable terms of trade.

Down through the years I have made it clear again and again from this side of the House that if the terms of trade moved against us at any juncture, we, in Opposition, could not possibly hold the Government responsible. Neither can the Government claim that they are responsible for an improvement in the terms of trade. However, if the terms of trade in 1967 had been the same as in 1965—it would seem that 1965 was a much more normal base year—then we would not have had any balance of payments surplus in 1967.

Apart from that, it seems pretty clear that the effect of devaluation will substantially increase the cost of our imports this year and unless we are able to take advantage of devaluation in such a way as to increase our exports to offset the increased cost of imports, we will have a most unsatisfactory balance of payments situation to consider this year. Undoubtedly such an unfavourable balance of payments situation would affect seriously our economic growth. We must remember, too, that we have unfortunately to look forward to some difficulty in the tourist field. The restrictions in America are bound to affect our tourist potential during 1968, though I must say that, having been to a part of the country called Limerick during the past couple of weeks, I was glad to see that there were a good number of Americans coming in.

It is a pity they have not votes.

Yes. It would be a very pleasant job for us to be canvassing them. We should certainly find it easier than canvassing on the side of a mountain down in Kilbehenny.

I guess we would.

I think we would even go into other parts. However, that is neither here nor there. Notwithstanding the inception of the season that we have seen, we must face a situation in which there will be a reduction in and a restriction on the dollar impetus this year. Bearing all that in mind and the prognostications to which I have referred, which are held not merely on this side of the Chamber but are held by the NIEC and by virtually everyone else, it must be taken that one of the really serious criticisms that can be made of this Budget is that there is no real inducement of any sort to stimulate exports. It is common knowledge that the pattern of governmental inducement and assistance and the whole aim of governmental policy up to the middle 50s had been to concentrate all our attention and all the attention of Irish industrialists and of Irish would-be industrialists on the home market. We now realise, all of us, including the people on the far side of the Chamber, that the island's self-sufficiency, preached to the greatest extreme and to the greatest nonsensical extreme by Deputy Aiken, the present Minister for External Affairs, was all wrong and that we cannot possibly in any circumstances hope to improve our living standards unless we are able properly to expand our exports. It is unfortunate that one can find in present circumstances in the publications that are made not merely suggestions but categorical statements that it seems that we are not taking advantage of the opportunities that devaluation gives in this respect in the way that we should.

One of the things, therefore, that the Budget must be severely criticised for is that there is no effort whatever to increase exports or to provide any incentives for exports. The incentives for exports that are there now are solely those that were introduced by the Government of which I had the honour to be a member in 1956. There has been no change in the pattern of the inducements provided in 1956, though of course where it was started off and deliberately started off at 50 per cent, it has since correctly been increased to 100 per cent relief. However, the effect of that as an inducement has begun to taper and the Minister for Finance in his Budget should have done something further to offset, for example, what the Federation of Irish Industries have stated in their survey —that devaluation has not provided much of a stimulus to our export expectations. If we are not able substantially to increase our exports and to increase them in the difficulties that will be created by free trade, then we cannot hope to meet any of the targets for increased employment which both sides of the House are anxious to see materialise.

I shall not dwell on the details of this but I do not think there was very much use made of the Export Guarantee Insurance Scheme that is operated by the Department of Industry and Commerce and I feel that, because of the fact that there was very little use made of that scheme, there was a great opportunity for the Minister for Finance in his Budget to provide a proper export stimulus on the lines perhaps of a national export bank. The provision of the funds necessary to cover exports is a big strain for many firms. It is a strain on their financial resources, and if there were a more clear arrangement by virtue of which those who were exporting would be able to rely on finance for a large part of their products, then I think this would be a further inducement and incentive for outward looking industrial concerns to export. In addition to that, there would perhaps be an opportunity by, for example, providing that the cost of market research and other investigation of export markets could be taken into account in the assessment of home profits for taxation. In either of those ways, we could have got something more that would concentrate interest on exports and constitute an incentive to export rather than the Minister being happy and content to let things more or less jog along. I feel that in that respect he deserves to be criticised seriously.

We are all of course in the position of wondering where we are going to get a growth rate with its employment content in the years ahead. The growth rate during the period of the hapless Second Programme was something that stopped largely as a result of the Government-inspired inflation of 1965 that inevitably had to bring with it its counterpart in restrictions. The effect of that was that we went down in growth in 1965 to 2½ per cent and down again in 1966 to 1 per cent. We would want to be at least careful, if no more, that the bouncing up of the public capital programme this year for which the Minister for Finance has taken great praise is something that does not bring in its train the same type of restriction as was brought by his predecessor's ill-judged and ill-advised tactics in 1964.

When I was in Limerick last weekend, one of the members of the Fianna Fáil Party stated in my hearing that the income from agriculture had increased threefold during the past couple of years or so. I know the particular person concerned is not at all interested in agriculture. The only interest he would have in agriculture— and I do not say this at all as a personal attack—would be in the collection of rates from the farming community. It is unfortunate that there should be so little understanding of the problems of agriculture in the Fianna Fáil Party because of course it is in agriculture that the greatest failure of this Government has been in their attempt to consider at all where the economy could be improved. The only success by the Government was that achieved first by the present Minister for Finance, then Minister for Agriculture, when he deliberately created chaos among agricultural organisations for Party political advantage. There is in this Budget which will improve the situation a small sum included for pigs which is, of course, welcome to those on the pig front. The floor price arises, I suspect, largely because of the problem in Donegal— and the Minister for Agriculture represents Donegal—but it does not deal with the fundamental problem.

We are told that the calved heifer scheme will end on 30th June. Yet, as I say, in the early months of this year there were 119,000 fewer cattle than last year. At the same time, there is a slight decrease in the total of milch cows and in-calf heifers. That arises because the Government have not taken proper steps to diversify the sale of milk products.

A scheme was introduced to boost cattle production at a time when the Government had made no proper arrangements to sell those cattle. Now, because of lack of planning for years on the part of the Government, we are facing a position in which there will be substantial difficulty in the disposal of milk products. Indeed, I understand that difficulty and the effect of the lack of governmental planning in this respect will mean that in the period ahead there will be a loss of approximately 2d per gallon. I do not know where the Government are going in this respect. We have not yet formulated a coherent policy to increase our livestock population and at the same time ensure that we do not create other problems on the agricultural production front.

Not only are we faced with a reduction this year in our cattle population but also with a reduction of 137,000 in breeding ewes. These are matters which the Minister for Finance should have taken into account in his Budget. He should have done so when framing his Budget proposals. Taking into account that the increased growth in agriculture in 1967 was only .8 of one per cent, it should be obvious that the Budget was not framed as it should have been.

If one examines the statistics that have been circulated in "Review of 1967 and Outlook for 1968", in Table I in relation to national income, we find that between 1958 and 1967, in monetary terms alone, the income from self-employment in agriculture, forestry and fisheries increased from £100 million to only £150 million while wages and salaries have gone up more than twice that amount, from almost £241 million to £520 million. It is quite clear that those in agriculture are being left behind in any consideration of what is being done or what is being achieved in relation to our money incomes. That is borne out by the statistics.

The net national production figures from Table II of the statistics show exactly the same result, that is, that the trend in regard to agriculture is not one which holds out any hope of building a happy, prosperous rural Ireland. All of us will agree that it is of fundamental importance to ensure that rural Ireland is happy and prosperous but the Budget makes no efforts to pinpoint the road or even point to the road towards that aim.

Even though the objections I have stated to the Budget are weighty, at the same time all of us will agree that the real failure of the Government and of the Minister for Finance to provide any amelioration is in relation to employment. After all the talk about the Second Programme, after all the talk by the Government year after year, we find that in 1967 fewer people were at work in Ireland than in the years before. This is not something of which any of us can be proud and it is certainly something for which the Government of the day should hang their heads in shame.

It is worse when the Minister for Finance makes no suggestion for improvement in his Budget proposals. The fact that one has to go back to 1962 to find a year in which there were fewer people at work in Ireland is a sad commentary on the past five years of Fianna Fáil Government.

I cannot understand why the Minister has taken no steps in this regard, particularly when the joint quarterly industrial survey published by the Federation of Irish Industries and the Economic and Social Research Institute is taken into account. Here I find in regard to some groupings of manufacturing industry the comment that not merely is there insufficient raw material to supply it but also that there is insufficient skilled and even unskilled labour available. In the metal engineering group, for example, one of the comments made is that the apparent trend is one of insufficient unskilled labour. If that is so, it is surely a matter for the Minister for Finance to provide proper arrangements for mobility and to introduce mobility in labour to meet that situation and thereby take the pressure off areas where it is not sufficient.

It seems also that in the wooden furniture group the comment made is that there is insufficient cash or credit. Surely that is a field which the Minister for Finance could have properly designed his Budget to cover? In the clothing and footwear grouping, again we find there is insufficient skilled labour. Surely there should be a scheme of incentives provided by the Budget to ensure that adequate instruction arrangements will be available to provide the stock of skilled labour necessary? It is not a question of our people being unable to attain the skills; it is purely that they have not the opportunity. They have not had the opportunity before and accordingly they have not got the opportunity now.

I know, in mining for example, some of the skills that have been attained have been attained by people who were never in mines before. This is something of which all of us are entitled justly to be proud but the fact remains, that the joint survey of two such important bodies as the Federation of Employers and the Economic and Social Research Institute, both saying that employment is not likely to increase substantially as things are, meant that any Minister for Finance should have taken heed of it and provided in his Budget something that would have meant that there was a chance of stimulating employment and with that stimulation a restricting force on emigration.

Deputy O'Higgins, speaking immediately after the Budget, referred to the emigration figures to Britain that were announced in the British House of Commons as 33,000. Those 33,000 people emigrated in 1967 when employment in England was not bouncing ahead and where, therefore, they found considerable difficulty in getting employment and when there was not the pull of openings and vacancies working as might have worked in other years.

I suppose it was to be expected that the Minister, when making his Budget speech, would have had little to say in relation to prices. It is quite obvious to everyone that the bounding increase in prices which has been so apparent under Fianna Fáil will proceed again this year as a result of the devaluation of the £ policy and that, as the year rolls on, we shall find that the £ in our pocket is worth less than previously not merely by creeping inflation but by a type of galloping inflation to which we have become accustomed, galloping inflation which has meant a 24 per cent increase in the cost of living since 1963 and a situation in which what could be bought for between 15/- and 16/- in 1963 now costs £1. I picked the year 1963 deliberately because it is the last year in which the rate of children's allowances paid was determined. Everybody knows—I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary will agree—that the one person who finds it difficult to manage is the father of the large family. He is the one person who is really badly hit and whose wife finds it more and more difficult to meet the rising household expenses out of the wages he brings home to her every week.

There was an easy way of dealing with that, a way deliberately devised for the large family, the children's allowances. One of the tragedies of this Budget is that it has not in any way improved the lot of the person with the large family by any improvement in children's allowances. I do not accept for a minute the half-implication in the Minister's speech that this is because he could not see a way to do it. It was his job to see a way and I think most people concerned would have been able to see the way without much difficulty. Indeed, I think he knew the way himself but he was not prepared to face it. It could have been faced in a variety of ways and I hope that when, for example, the added value tax comes in, it will be used not by way of being swallowed up as is the custom of Ministers for Finance, but that it will be used both as a substitute for some existing taxation and as a method of increasing and improving social welfare benefits so that any effect of it cannot be in any way regressive.

It is of interest also in relation to the added value tax that the countries of the European Community have all decided that they must each adopt a system of turnover tax on the added value basis not later than 1st January, 1970 as a step towards complete harmonisation of their expenditure and taxation. The added value tax is already effective in France. I think the Netherlands are promising to follow suit on 1st January next. Germany has already introduced the new system and as a result has been able to make quite a number of price reductions. Denmark, though not a member of the Community, has operated this type of taxation since 1967. It is undoubted that the effect of such a tax here, which would abolish the wholesale tax, and abolish the existing turnover tax, would be to assist us towards harmonisation with the rest of Europe. It is something that would have helped towards meeting the claims of that hard-pressed section of the community, to which I have referred, fathers of large families.

I want to make that clear because one is inclined to say at times that one should oppose all taxation. I do not agree. I bitterly opposed the turnover tax when it was imposed a few years ago because it was not imposed in substitution for existing taxation but as an additional impost on the people, and if a value added tax is imposed in the same way, as an additional impost, without being used for the purpose for which it should be used, in order to lighten taxation, it will push us beyond the point at which we can hope for proper economic growth and hope that our industries and those engaged in them can prosper and expand in employment. It is not merely the imposition of a tax that is a matter for consideration but also the effect it will have and whether it is in addition to or in substitution for other things.

For instance, the petrol tax imposed by the Minister in relation to this Budget is a bad tax. I say that quite deliberately, having myself been forced in certain circumstances to impose it. I think it was a mistake and a much greater mistake at the present time when there were other means easily available to the Minister for Finance. It seeps down through the whole fabric of industry and distribution. It is felt at every level. It is bound to affect the cost of living, and is something which does not hit only at what one might term luxury spending. The person in a car driving some distance to his work will be hit by it; and if he is dissuaded from going that distance, then it will affect, as I said earlier, that mobility of labour we must have if we are to ensure that employment all over the country is improved and increased.

Deputy Mullen or Deputy Governey —I forget which—expressed disappointment that the Minister had not increased the personal allowance. To the extent that I qualify this, I am very disappointed that he did not increase the married allowance, because the increase that there is in the first year of marriage is something which, while welcome, is of trifling importance and does not at all meet the difficulties which are met by the people in the middle income group, and of which we all here are aware.

We have, too, been hurt for years by the absence of a proper science or technology policy by the Government. On many occasions, in Budget debates in recent years, I have protested that the Minister for Finance of the day made a great mistake in not doing a great deal more for scientific research, not doing a great deal more to ensure that we have a better technological service. There was an article I read the other day in a magazine, Business and Finance, by a Mr. Joseph O'Malley, whom I have not the pleasure of knowing but who dealt with the gap in Ireland's technology. In passing, I may say that I think the article is more accurate than the article on politics appearing in the same issue on page 2, which was comprised of nothing but flights of fancy, and indeed I noticed that, being short of material, the author introduced my name. That article on politics to which I refer had not the remotest resemblance to the truth in any line of it. However, I have very great sympathy for journalists when they have to try to write a good spicy article on politics, and if they do have a clatter at us now and again, well, if we do not want to be clattered, we have no right to be in politics.

What does upset me is the suggestion on page 10 of this magazine of 3rd May, 1968, which says:

International comparisons show that Ireland is among the nations with the lowest rate of research and development expenditure in Europe. Our technological balance of payments indicates that receipts for technological data are practically nil while payments are considerable.

Yet I see little evidence in this Budget that the Minister for Finance has realised at all that that exists and the difficulty it will create for us in the future. All of us can remember a promise made by a previous Minister for Health when he said categorically, and said particularly in my county to the members of Kildare County Council, that they could rest assured that there would not be, in any circumstances, any increase over the 1965 figure for health services. The increase the ratepayers of Kildare have had to meet since that time is one which, during this year, will make them sadder and wiser people; at that time, some of them believed the then Minister, and thought that he meant his promise and that he would carry it into effect. It is not for me to comment on whether he meant it or not, but it is quite clear to me that there was no possibility whatever of his carrying it into effect. The Minister for Finance has, in this Budget, made it quite clear that that promise is another one of the many promises that have been strewn by Fianna Fáil down through the years.

This is a Budget which is out of pace with the times. It is a Budget that does not take account of the need for stimulating exports and of economic growth. It is a Budget that does not take account of the most hard-pressed sector in the community, the people with large families, and as such it is not one of which any Minister for Finance could possibly be proud.

My intervention in this debate will, for different reasons, be brief. My Front Bench colleague, Deputy Sweetman, has gone fairly well through the Budget Statement, and I shall content myself with speaking on local matters in my constituency as they relate to this Budget. This Budget has been described in various ways as a cosy, dull, uninteresting, getting-nowhere Budget, but I prefer to describe it in two other phrases: a Taca Budget and a bromide Budget. We all know that bromide dulls the nerves and the senses so that you cannot perceive anything around you. I am quite convinced that the Minister for Finance, in preparing his Budget Statement, set out precisely to do those things. Therefore if I describe it as a bromide Budget, I think there is no one who would agree with me more than the Minister.

In talking about the Budget, there are many things we have to take into account. I said I was going to confine myself as far as I could to matters which affect my constituents. I am one of five Deputies representing the vast constituency of North-East Cork, and I want to say here and now that for them this was certainly a most disappointing Budget. For the farmers of North-East Cork, this Budget is not only disappointing but disgusting. While something was expected and promised to them, they got nothing in the Budget; not alone that, but for them, like everyone else, costs have risen considerably during the past 12 months. I want to list those costs: farmers have had to pay increased wages to farm labourers, £1 a week; stamp and redundancy contributions, 7s 6d a week; artificial manure, £3 per ton; poultry and pig rations, £3 per ton; seed, that is, seed grain, wheat, barley and oats, 5/- per barrel; maize and other meal, and soya beans, which are used to a considerable extent, ten per cent and the cost of machinery has risen by the astronomically high figure of 22 per cent. These figures would suggest to any Minister for Finance who had an interest in the farmers that something should be done for them in the Budget. Unfortunately nothing has been done.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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