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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 5 Jun 1968

Vol. 235 No. 4

Local Authorities (Higher Education Grants) Bill, 1968: Report and Final Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be received for final consideration."

I should like to refer to certain points raised by Deputies during the Committee Stage. In relation to courses, other than university courses, which would qualify for grants under the scheme, I am having prepared in my Department a comprehensive list which will be published at the earliest possible date. I am not going to wait on the actual passing of the Bill; I hope to have this fairly soon, inside a matter of a week or so. Each course must be considered and evaluated in relation to what we hope to achieve. Our object is to encourage young people to pursue full-time courses of higher education equivalent in standard and content to university degree courses.

In the light of this criterion, it is clear that courses such as accountancy, which involve apprenticeship allied to part-time study—which was the case made by Deputy Lindsay—could not be regarded as coming within the ambit of the scheme. Deputy Lindsay made representations in relation to students following the BL course to become barristers. Any such student who is doing a wholetime course of study and who would otherwise be qualified for a grant will be paid the grant. In relation to students for the solicitors' profession a grant would be payable only if they were following a university degree course and would be limited to the duration of that course.

The aid available to clerical students has also been referred to. Grants will be available to enable such students to obtain their primary academic degree, and, if recommended by the college authorities, for post-graduate academic studies. To extend the grant further in the case of that student would raise a number of issues, some of which would be related to the constitutional position.

Regarding suggestions that the scheme should be back-dated, even for one year, I may say, as I have said already in Committee, that when progressive schemes such as this are introduced, the case is invariably made that people who have already started on their courses should receive the benefits of the proposed new scheme. We must set a date for it.

That did not apply to secondary education.

In regard to secondary education, the transport scheme was involved. There was the payment of fees and we did not——

The money was much smaller, but it was the same thing.

The money is quite big. If you did it for one year, you would be talking in terms of £300,000.

The money is smaller for secondary education. That is why it was allowed through.

But it is still a great hardship.

We must draw the line somewhere. I have given careful consideration to Deputy Lindsay's request that any change in the requirements for participation in the scheme or in the grants available should be made only by regulation to be submitted to both Houses of the Oireachtas. While I appreciate the Deputy's reasons for pressing the point, I am still of the opinion that to accede to his request would add nothing to the scheme and would make it unduly rigid. It is my desire to make the scheme as flexible as possible. I believe this can best be done by direct representation to myself rather than circumscribing myself by regulations which might prevent me from doing what might be good in particular circumstances.

I have all along stressed my desire to make this scheme a vital and flexible instrument for educational and social progress and I would be very loth to agree to anything that would inhibit it. The use of the statutory instrument has never been a feature of the scholarship schemes in this connection, so why introduce it at this stage? I might also point out that neither is it a feature of many other statutory grant schemes. The terms of non-statutory State grant schemes may also of course be varied without recourse to the Oireachtas. In these circumstances, I am satisfied that this scheme, which marks such a substantial advance in higher education, should not be subjected to the necessity of formal statutory instrument. In any event, such an instrument, if it were to cover every possible contingency that might arise, would have to be so widely drawn as to be worthless.

Some objection was raised to section 7 of the Bill which gives the Minister for Education power to determine questions or disputes arising under the scheme. This provision was also in the 1944 Scholarship Act. It is necessary, as a matter of practical administration, that the Minister should be charged with this responsibility. It ensures uniformity of administrative decision which is important in a scheme operated by 31 local authority bodies. Of course, I need hardly say that the final arbiter of any legislation is the courts and not the Minister.

In the nature of the Bill, it would not be appropriate that the words "Local Authorities" should be deleted from the title. Local authorities will be providing substantial moneys towards the cost of the scheme and doing the administrative work at local level which it would be impossible for my Department to undertake. The local authorities are therefore entitled to pride of place in the Title of this legislation. As I say, it would not be practicable for the State Department to go into the details necessary, to examine means and the other work done by the local authority officers, home assistance officers, rate collectors——

That is a dangerous one.

That is the position.

Once you bring the rate collectors into it, you are dealing with political appointees.

I will not go into detail about what particular officers will be responsible. At least the information is available at local authority level to advise me as to who does or does not come within the ambit of the scheme from the means point of view. It would be impossible for my Department to undertake to administer work which will be carried out at local level. Therefore I feel that the local authorities are entitled to have a place in the Title of the Bill, despite the amendment.

While the Minister has not acceded to everything that was asked for in the course of Committee Stage by way of amendment from me, nevertheless, I feel that, in view of his undertakings and statements now, the Committee Stage was worthwhile and that the discussions on the amendments not alone evoked a certain amount of sympathy from the Minister but helped to instil in him the validity of the points we made, certainly the validity of some of the points. I am still not satisfied that this scheme is a well thought out scheme because I am convinced that money and the availability of money was the predominant consideration.

As I said in the course of the Committee Stage, if a scheme were brought forward here such as the one recommended by the Fine Gael Party of fee-paying in the first instance, followed by maintenance grants in the second, it would give uniformity and satisfaction. As I said in a television discussion the other night, any scheme promulgated such as this, and indeed any other kind of scheme, should avoid as far as possible giving rise to dissatisfaction and irritation. The fact that this scheme begins in the next academic year, in October of the coming year, and leaves out all those people who would normally qualify and who are already in the university, does create irritation and dissatisfaction. While the Minister pronounces this as a progressive scheme, I do not see why the incorporation of these people within it, rendering it possible for them to get the benefits of the scheme, could in any way take away from the idea of progressiveness of which the Minister seems to be so enamoured, and rightly so.

The Minister did not mention another subject that came up on Committee, the position of pupils from the Republic of Ireland who are attending secondary schools in the Six Counties. These would be pupils in the main from Donegal, Monaghan, Cavan and Louth and who were, certainly in Donegal, under the administration of the scholarship scheme in the past, allowed to do a special examination.

May I interrupt the Deputy? I had intended to refer to this. The only county which has a special provision in this regard is Donegal and we intend to continue that situation, to allow somebody from Donegal who has done the examination in the Six Counties to take a special leaving certificate examination at another date.

While the position heretofore did give them the opportunity of availing of scholarships from Donegal County Council, I still think that having to do the second examination was placing an undue hardship on students. It is bad enough having to do the examination once without having to do it twice, ecept perhaps in special circumstances in relation to the first one. When one does, say, the GCE in Northern Ireland and secures levels in university subjects here comparable with those in the leaving certificate examination, I see no reason why the levels obtained could not be accepted by our Department of Education and by the Minister in the working of this scheme, and in fact I would——

We are going half way.

It would be just another cross-Border gesture, as it were, towards the recognition of standards. If we are going to have it in the ESB in relation to units of power, surely we could have it in the Department of Education in regard to levels of education? If the Minister does not see his way to do that, we must be satisfied with the fact that a special examination will be available to these pupils. Again, this is cumbersome and expensive and calls for extra examiners, extra supervisors and so on. I see no reason why the comparable levels could not be accepted from these pupils, provided that——

The Bill is flexible enough to do that.

Will the Minister say here and now that he will put into the order he is going to make that the Minister may at his discretion allow standards of examination comparable with the leaving certificate to prevail?

I can do that.

But will the Minister do it?

I will do that. But that will leave it entirely open to me to recognise or not to recognise.

Of course. I am obliged to the Minister. There is another aspect of this scheme to which the Minister has not referred, an aspect raised by Deputy Mrs. Desmond who initiated discussion on it on the last occasion, the matter of teacher training. Since Committee Stage, an argument in regard to this has been brought to my attention, that the people in the teacher training college already are at least four honours people. They have to be.

More than that actually: the average is higher.

The average is even higher. Their grant is £105 a year which they may pay or get a loan to pay, or which indeed in many cases is forgiven altogether, but the kind of pupils who go to the training colleges would come generally from the main group which would qualify for the highest university grant.

That is right.

If they get the four honours or more, if they get a number of honours in university subjects which brings them to the training colleges either for men or women, they will, in my view and in the view of the person who put this argument to me, opt to take the university grant and go direct to university and not to the training college.

Be it on the Minister's head later on.

This, in my view, will lower the standard of entrance to the training colleges.

They might have to go to the two or the one because all of the people qualifying, who might not necessarily be the best teachers—the people with all the honours might not necessarily be the best teachers——

This is my point.

Nevertheless we have to strike a balance between those of high academic attainments and those of lesser attainments in that regard. If you are going to have going to the training college only people who failed to reach the standard of the university grant, then you have lowered the standard of education and examination of the people entering the primary teachers' ranks.

Is that not better than having a great deal of the present dissatisfaction because a highly qualified person cannot go to university, even though he or she is far better qualified?

There is a scarcity of primary teachers.

There is; otherwise we would not have junior assistant mistresses and leaving certificates, male and female. There is a point in this and it is something the Minister should watch. The reason I mention it is that the Minister has intentions in the not too distant future of linking teacher training with the universities and here is the argument now for pulling back that date as closely as possible to the scheme so that those entering the training colleges and those entering the universities will have the same educational opportunities. Does the Minister see the point?

I do. I have had representations and there are many views as to who is the right type of person to be a teacher.

Why insist then they should have high honours?

Because of the law of supply and demand.

Oh, come now. The average is 5½ honours, which is extraordinarily high. These are the people Deputy Lindsay says should be going on to higher education.

How many men go into St. Patrick's each year?

It is reasonable to assume that 100 of those presenting themselves next September will have four honours in university subjects and it is equally reasonable to assume that 50 of that 100 may elect to go to university rather than to St. Patrick's and that will reduce the intake to St. Patrick's.

Of that standard. We have tremendous pressure with regard to intake.

But the Minister will have no trouble then in going lower and perhaps getting a better teacher.

Possibly, but not necessarily.

In my view, the standard of examination is not necessarily indicative of the standard of education and the two of them do not necessarily make a teacher. There is the matter of vocation. Not alone must the teacher have the capacity to impart the knowledge he has but, in addition, he must have the capacity to supervise effectively the intake of that knowledge.

And communicate.

Communication is involved in what I am saying.

If I might intervene. we are getting away from the Fourth Stage of the Bill. The Deputy's remarks would be relevant on the Fifth Stage where the Deputy may speak on what is in the Bill.

The Minister told me the other day that he proposed to consider again a number of small points and one of them, which would be more relevant on the Fifth Stage also——

The Minister gave reasons why he did not bring in certain amendments, but it would not be in order to have a debate on the Bill on the Fourth Stage. I suggest we take the Fourth Stage now and then the Deputy may say anything he has to say on the Fifth Stage on which it will be relevant.

Question put and agreed to.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

I made a point about people who will have to leave university this year because of their financial circumstances, even though they did have the necessary four honours. It is rather a pity the Minister could not stretch a point there. I also asked him what would happen in the case of those who got four honours but did not get Irish and I asked him, if they got Irish the next year, would they qualify? The Minister has not commented on that.

With regard to the local authority grant, he referred to the fact that this was being included, as it was in 1967. Whatever was being paid would have to be continued. I pointed out that this included an element in regard to those who were already in university and I asked him how he could take that into account without taking the other into account. The Minister pre-dated the cash end of it but not the qualifications or the benefits. This is not good law. The Minister should have another look at it.

He is doing away completely with open scholarships. The Minister has not adverted to that at all. We had a certain number of closed scholarships and a certain number of open scholarships. It did not matter what the income was. The extraordinary thing is that very many of these got very high honours. Unless their parents are able to pay for them in future, they will not be able to avail of university education. Mark you, a high income is not necessarily an indication of affluence. Very often people with high incomes are not so well off at all, because of illness or some other disability, and these will not be able to send their children to university. At the moment open scholarship winners are being paid for out of the local authority fund. How will the Minister get around that one when the new regulation comes into force? He will have to get around it in some way.

Deputy Lindsay and Deputy Mrs. Desmond referred to teachers and the effect the new regulation will have on them. They put the case much more competently than I can. I go higher than Deputy Lindsay and I say the figure will be 100 out of 150. A great many boys have had to go to training college because of necessity and not of choice. Surely the Minister has some worry with regard to replacements? Those further down on the list might turn out to be better teachers but up to now that was not accepted. The Minister now says that those with the highest honours might not necessarily make the best teachers. We all agree with that. But is there any danger of a lowering of the standard of teaching? The Minister shakes his head. If the standard is lowered from five or six honours down to three, two or perhaps one, something will have to be done. I agree that these people should get their chance and it would be a wonderful opportunity for youngsters who would not normally get a chance because they had not enough honours.

It is good socialism.

It is, but it is also good socialism to ensure that there are sufficient teachers available in the primary schools. In a number of two-teacher schools, we cannot get even one teacher at the present time. The Minister will want to ensure there is no draining away and no slowing up and no argument on the part of those who are faced with a situation in which the brilliant are going elsewhere and they are reluctant to take in the less brilliant, the result being that in a few years time we may find that for one year or two years there may be no teachers coming out because somebody felt they were too good to teach the people with the smaller number of honours coming in.

Dealing with this question of teachers again, I see a great many difficulties in this. It is true that in the past the vast majority of those who went into the teachers training colleges did so by reason of the fact that they did not have money to pursue longer and more expensive courses or, on the other hand, to take advantage of the short course which still obtains in the training colleges in order to come to the salary stage quickly and assist their parents or the younger members of the family in pursuing certain educational courses. Others still went in as the quick way to earning. We know from experience that a number of these people, of all the classes I have mentioned, were enabled to leave teaching altogether and to do something else more compatible with their academic objective or the way of life to which they thought they should fashion themselves.

This scheme, commendable as it is in many respects, will make available to those people of this very high standard, as they all are of very high standard, many of the courses that were not open to them before and the grants will relieve them and their people of the hardship which was always there. Accordingly, then, as Deputy Tully says, you are going to dig down further in the examination attainment level for candidates for training colleges. While you would get the odd good teacher who might not necessarily be as of high an examination standard as another, by and large it will have to be admitted that teachers must be persons of stature in their community, persons who will be respected, persons who will have the confidence of parents and of the managers who employ them, persons whom the pupils of the higher classes, as they are coming to the age of mature examination of teachers, will respect, and these people of the lower standards in the leaving certificate group who will go into the training colleges should not be regarded with lack of confidence by parents or looked at askance by managing employers or, indeed, be the butt of nudging ridicule by senior pupils in their schools, because they were the kind of people who failed to get into a university. That is a very bad label to have emerge for primary teachers at the present time.

So, possibly, the only way the Minister can cure this is by himself and his advisers, as quickly as possible, in consultation with the people in the training colleges, bringing forward the time for initiation of the link between teacher training and the universities so that there will not be any gap where this kind of lack of qualification might be the subject of ridicule. Of course, once a teacher finds himself in possession of a complex of that kind and knows that he is being regarded as such, it must play merry hell with his self-confidence. These are the kinds of things which I think the Minister should look at.

We welcome the introduction of the Bill but the Bill goes only so far and in my view and in the view of my Party it is scrappy and there is an obvious cheese-paring element running right through it. As I said on Committee Stage, to get rid of irritation, dissatisfaction and the anomalies which we have pointed out here, which have been pointed out by Deputy Mrs. Desmond, Deputy Tully, Deputy Dillon and myself, if there was a specific measure of taxation asked for in this House that would benefit all of our children, nobody would take exception to it and the people would meet it cheerfully.

I hope that this works well. I hope it will work better than I think it will. Before I sit down I want to make reference to another category that I mentioned on Committee Stage, that is, the person who in the 1967 leaving certificate examination got four honours in university subjects but did not have another necessary subject for the faculty of his choice and, if Latin be that subject, is doing it this year. If he succeeds in getting it, will that person be enabled to apply successfully for a grant?

I shall mention that when I am saying a few words later.

Approving, I hope, of the suggestions I have made. I do not know that there is much more to be said on this. The best thing to do is to let the Bill through the House as speedily as possible and let it go to the Seanad so that all concerned with its administration and the making of the Order will be able to do so with all speed and that parents and leaving certificate candidates next week will know exactly where they stand in relation to the administration of this Bill.

As I said, I welcome the Bill but have reservations to which I have referred. The Bill is full of anomalies and will give rise to considerable irritation and dissatisfaction. The Minister, in refusing to make these Orders the subject of a regulation to be placed before the Houses of the Oireachtas, did so in the interests, as he says, of flexibility. I quite concede that there is validity in both arguments. He is arguing in favour of flexibility. I am arguing in favour of the Members of this House having a say in the way the money they vote is being spent and giving them ready access to making arguments. However, we will have the Parliamentary Question. I accept the Minister's statement in good faith that he is rejecting the idea of a regulation in order to give himself the maximum amount of flexibility. In that flexibility I hope the categories I have mentioned, both north and south of the Border, will be included.

I am glad to see any extension of university education being made available for all our people but there are certain ambiguities that I should like cleared up. There is a provision here which distinguishes the student who is resident in a university city and the student who has to travel from a rural area. The resident of the rural area is entitled to a higher rate of grant, as I understand it, than that available to a resident in a university city, but when we come to ask ourselves what will be the statutory designation of a person resident in a university city, we are informed informally by the Minister in the course of a discussion which took place on Radio Telefís Éireann that he included in the category of persons resident in a university city all those within a reasonable bus journey of the university city. What is a reasonable bus journey and is it a journey on the municipal bus service or is it ten miles or 20 miles, or what area is it?

At the post-primary level, we took 15 miles as the criterion —a bus ride that would not cause undue hardship in bringing a boy or girl to lectures.

We would say something in the order of 15 miles and certainly not in excess of 20 miles?

Two or three buses?

Certainly 15. I have put the maximum at 15.

In relation to a place like Galway, you would be leaving out Oughterard and Loughrea. I am sorry the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach is not here.

I was thinking in terms of Dublin where you have a regular bus service.

There is a University College in Galway too, you know.

This is my reason for the flexibility. It would not apply to Loughrea and Galway.

It is valuable to direct the attention of the Minister to the fact that these are matters which require definition if unseemly disputation is not to take place thereafter and the perfect appearance of gerrymandering to emerge with a circle with a long bulge in it to take in some particular place where the Parliamentary Secretary is living or something of that kind. It is not an easy task, I freely concede. Although I endorse wholeheartedly what Deputy Lindsay said about flexibility, I could never see that there was any unreasonable restraint on flexibility if Ministers had power to make orders which had statutory effect unless cancelled by a resolution of this House.

We all know in our own experience there are hundreds of statutes whereunder a Minister can make an order which has statutory effect unless cancelled. In my experience of this House, which now goes back 35 years, I do not suppose I have heard a dozen of such orders challenged by resolution. Nevertheless, the right to challenge such an order by resolution within 21 days does retain the ultimate control in Dáil Éireann. On certain occasions which I distinctly remember it has proved a useful check on the imprudent exercise of excessive discretion by a Minister for the time being. Therefore, I would suggest that the Minister would determine how he will define these areas outside of which people would be entitled to the supplementary grant and inside which people would be entitled only to the residential grant.

The second thing I want to say is that I believe all schemes of this kind are rendered better if they can be implemented without creating a local sense of grievance. Very often these grievances, looked at from the angle of Oireachtas Éireann, are microscopic but looked at from the point of view of the county or the area where they exist, they become chronic sources of irritation which make people sour about the whole scheme.

I think the Minister has made a very great mistake in freezing the current contributions made by local authorities and requiring these contributions to be made hereafter annually. It has the ridiculous effect of imposing an annual charge on a relatively poor county like Monaghan 50 per cent greater than that which County Kildare will have to pay or a county like Offaly. These are two counties in which there is some of the best land in Ireland, whereas Monaghan is a county with predominantly small farms where the productive quality of the land is relatively low, the average holding small and the average income small.

There again I think the Minister would do well to think again and see if he could not procure the general goodwill of all by a uniform poundage charge, if he does not consider raising the £230,000 or whatever it may be by taxation and simply wiping out the local contribution altogether. I doubt very much if this device of the arbitrary freezing of existing contributions is a prudent procedure for it would seem to warn local authorities hereafter that they should not be enthusiastic in implementing optional schemes because, if they are, should the policy change they will simply be called upon to bear permanently a heavier burden than the less enterprising local authorities who have in the past hung back and failed to co-operate as enthusiastically as County Monaghan has done in this case and as other counties may have done in regard to other schemes.

We are passing this Bill from Dáil Éireann to the Seanad. One of the objects of this Bill is to make university education available to a wider section of our people. As far as we on this side of the House are concerned, as I had the privilege of saying at the Ard Fheis of our organisation five years ago, our ultimate aim is to make available the best we have in primary, secondary and university education to all our children without regard to the income of their parents. That is a structure that cannot be developed in a day, but it is the aim, the goal, towards which we wish to move.

I think it is a mistake to allow an occasion of this kind to pass—we are on the Final Stage and it is not appropriate to dwell on things we think ought to be in the Bill but we are considering now what is in the Bill— without making comment on what the consequences of this Bill, as it now stands after the Committee and Report Stages, are likely to be. Its most important function is to multiply the number of university students in Ireland. Now, I know, and I knew before I spoke, that in the discussion on the Estimate for External Affairs in this House I had certain things to say which I thought necessary to say. I do not want to withdraw or qualify one single sentence that I then spoke. I do not want to mitigate the abrasiveness of the language I deliberately chose. But it is necessary that young people should know and understand what their elders are saying and thinking. I fully appreciate that in dealing with these matters I caused many young students to feel that I and perhaps others of my generation were out of sympathy with their praiseworthy impatience for reform.

I want to make it quite clear—and it is necessary to make it clear so that the truth can be made to prevail—that I know the student body fairly well personally and vicariously. The vast bulk of the student body of this country will, I would interpolate, Sir, never vote for me because they will never have the chance; by the time they have grown to voting age or to participate in public life, it is highly unlikely that I will be seeking the suffrage of any voter; so there can be no suggestion that I am seeking to pacify future voters. But I think it right that the truth should be made manifest to them.

They will be quite mistaken in believing that the senior members of this Parliament of Ireland do not understand their yearning for reform, and their hopes to make this country a better country in which to live. They will be quite wrong in thinking that any responsible member of this House believes that the majority of Irish students are irresponsible rowdies. They will be quite wrong in believing that any senior member of this Parliament of Ireland looks upon the student body of Ireland as reckless, or irresponsible, or capricious.

They would be quite wrong if they did not understand that we who have watched liberty totter to the edge of extinction time and again in our lives, have got a high duty at whatever cost to warn the young that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance and that the road to servitude invariably leads through anarchy. If in this House we speak out against those who would channel the glorious energies of the young on the road to anarchy in the hope that this will lead to Utopia, we must from our experience say: "The road to anarchy leads not to what you hope for, but to the opportunity for unworthy men to impose servitude upon you."

Deputy Dillon will appreciate that this Bill merely gives grants for higher education and the behaviour of university students does not come into the Bill.

We are suddenly creating a great opportunity for a vast number of young people to become university students. Is not that so? Are we not entitled at the moment of doing that to tell these people that if they are receiving from their country a great opportunity they must have present to their minds the magnitude of their responsibility? I think it is relevant. Sir. Is it not relevant for us in this House to say that nothing we can say to the young who are standing on the threshold of the universities will teach them wisdom, because wisdom is something that cannot be taught by precept. It is acquired only by experience.

Surely we are entitled to say to them: "Now you stand at the threshold of a broader education ask yourselves this question: `What is the purpose of your broader education? Is it not fundamentally to stay free? Is it not fundamentally to keep your country free and to see that your children and your children's children stay free?' " Is it not right to say to them: "We are opening the door of our universities to you all, but remember that within these doors there is an opportunity for immense advancement and progress not only for you individually but for the nation of which you constitute a part. If you listen to the prophets of anarchy, they will take back from you in servitude the whole horizon of freedom that our ultimate aim is designed to give you all."

I am certain that the vast bulk of the university students of this country, given an understanding of these fundamental facts, will cherish freedom and defend it with just the same enthusiasm and devotion as our fathers and grandfathers fought to get it. When I point the finger at the tiny minority who have suffered themselves to become the dupes of foreign hirelings, I do not reprobate the student body of Ireland because I am relatively old and speaking to the young. On the contrary, I am trying to make it clear that I cheerfully support this measure because I am confident that the vast bulk of the existing student body, and the new student body we are hoping to create, can be entrusted with the preservation of freedom, provided they are on their guard to ensure that the halls of the universities which it will be the privilege of future generations to build for their accommodation are not used by unscrupulous deceivers to generate anarchy designed ultimately to make serfs of the people we are now planning to make free men.

I think this has to be said. The more we can communicate it to the rising generation of our people, the better it will be for us all. In these times we are frequently told that the channels of comunication are breaking down between the Parliamentary institutions and the masses of the people, particularly the young. We have a duty in Parliament—we are the elected representatives of the people; we are a select company; there are only 144 of us—to communicate and tell them that when we enter Leinster House we do not forget them, we do not misunderstand them, we do not cut ourselves off from our own children. We are not all spectral beings who have no sons or grandsons to inform us of what young minds are thinking.

It is useful to tell them that in this House no one is sacrosanct and those who threaten to undermine the institutions we are concerned to protect will be stigmatised for what they are but that the young are, to the knowledge of us all, the hope and future of this country. We are mobilising our resources to place at their disposal the fullest opportunity our resources will allow in the confidence that they will fully justify the faith we put in them. If there are those who tell them we in Dáil Éireann do not understand the problems of the young, they would do well to ask themselves, of the 144 Deputies who sit there, how many have young of their own whose daily problems are the main preoccupation of Deputies of Dáil Éireann and, if they understand their own young, why should the young of the country proceed on the assumption that, in Dáil Éireann, the young are misunderstood? I do not think that is irrelevant to the measure we are now passing or to the interest Dáil Éireann should have in it or to the occasion of one step further along the road towards the ultimate goal which we on this side of the House have certainly set ourselves and to which I believe Fianna Fáil and the Labour Party wish to advance as well. I am happy to find all Parties in this House on the road towards the same goal.

I am deliberately passing over detailed defects I may perceive in these plans here. I accept them as one step at least in the right direction. I passionately hope that those for whom these plans are made will realise that it is in Dáil Éireann, in the Árd Fheiseanna of the political organisations of this country and in the Executives of the political organisations that reform and change and development can be achieved in freedom and that their voices—the voices of the young—however strident, however indignant, however loudly dissenting, will be heard with respect and attention within the political organisations of this country and that it is there that educated and informed influence can effectively be brought to bear on a programme of reform. If they will hear that and recognise the agents of anarchy for what they are, cheap frauds and base traitors to truth, then the passage of this Bill through Dáil Éireann will achieve an even greater purpose than the limited aim which the Minister claimed for it.

Inside this House and in the country the provisions of this Bill have received, and deservedly so, great praise, because they considerably increase the number of scholarships available at post-secondary schools—universities, technical and other schools. It is unfortunate, therefore, that, in one respect, they worsen the position in regard to one class of secondary student. This class are represented by the day and boarding students who receive their secondary education, post-primary education, in schools and colleges in the Six County area. Heretofore, because of the fact that examinations for which they studied in Northern Ireland and the leaving certificate examinations here on many occasion clash, and this year do clash, and in the future will, too, in regard to the dates on which they are held, a special examination was set with the approval of the Department, which enabled these pupils, the students, to sit for the scholarship——

I referred to this earlier. We shall attend to this matter.

This was discussed.

The Minister will attend to it very satisfactorily.

Will an examination equivalent to the leaving certificate——

In his discretion, the Minister may well accept certain levels in the examination in Northern Ireland as comparable with the leaving certificate.

I shall leave that open to myself.

I wanted to suggest that, in cases where A or O Levels of GCE are high enough, these should be accepted and, if not, that O levels might be stipulated as the requirement.

I shall leave that open to myself.

Deputy Dillon spoke about certain aspects of this Bill—I do not intend to keep the Minister long—which will give rise to a sense of inequity between various sections of the community. Deputy Dillon was speaking about public authorities and the manner in which the requirements would be made for them to make certain contributions towards the cost of this Bill. I want to refer, very briefly, to some of the individual inequities that will arise as a result of this measure.

Students who have already all the qualifications for the benefits which the Bill proposes to give students and who are, at the moment, in universities will not be entitled to obtain any assistance under this Bill. This will give rise to one situation which will pertain, certainly, in University College, Cork in respect of people who already have scholarships from Cork Corporation of £135 a year. They will have £135 a year for having obtained a scholarship of a type similar to the one envisaged by this Bill but, because somebody was born two or three years later, he will get, within the ambit of this Bill, £175 a year in the same university for the same course. They are getting different grants from public authorities. I think that is bad. It is the sort of thing that could give rise to a feeling of injustice amongst the student body. If the Minister could, even at this stage look into this matter, I should be very glad.

As Deputy Dillon adverted to it, this scheme does represent an investment by the community in the young people of our country. I think this investment will be rewarded excellently. I have confidence that there will be a response to it and that, by widening the range of people going into higher education, we shall remove anomalies that have existed heretofore and ensure the highest standard of entrant. The community require that a higher standard of person shall go on to higher education. That person can have the fullest satisfaction of knowing that he or she is utilising his or her talents to the greatest extent. At the same time, the community itself benefits from the utilisation to the highest degree of the talents of these young people.

Equality of opportunity is a basic social principle. It is one to which all Parties in this House subscribe. I believe this is the most practical form of social justice one can imagine, where everybody, boys or girls, irrespective of their means, or where they live, can get the chance to go right to the top in whichever field their talents may lie.

I do not pretend that this Bill is anything but the first step in this direction. That is why it is deliberately framed in a very flexible way so as to enable the Minister for Education in the years ahead, according to the community's needs and the requirements of social justice, to adjust the requirements in regard to entry, in regard to means and in regard to the establishments that would be regarded by him as coming within the ambit of the Bill in respect of higher grants. Indeed, the debate itself and the numerous issues raised highlighted the fact that the Minister for Education must have flexibility under the Bill, or Act as it will be. If, in the months and years ahead, Deputies have cases of injustice brought to their notice or marginal cases that should come within the framework of the Act, it is important that they should be able to approach the Minister with the particular injustice brought to their notice and that the Minister should be able, at his discretion, to provide for what is just in the particular circumstances.

The debate raises a number of issues on which I can give the House assurances. One issue referred to by Deputy Cunningham, and earlier by Deputy Lindsay, was that in regard to County Donegal where heretofore people who sought scholarships and who had done the GCE course in the Six Counties had special examination arrangements made for them in order to qualify for scholarships here. We shall continue that course in regard to County Donegal. If there are GCE students in Donegal in the coming few weeks who will be doing the GCE examination in the Six Counties at the same time as our leaving certificate, they will have facilities to do a special leaving certificate at a later stage in order to qualify under our scheme.

I hope the Minister will not confine that to County Donegal. It also applies in Cavan and Monaghan and Louth.

These counties have not required these facilities from us heretofore. Donegal was the only Northern county that had or that sought this arrangement. We shall continue to provide it for Donegal and if it is sought for other counties we can do likewise.

What about comparable levels?

I shall have a reasonably flexible order made under the Act which will enable me, or a Minister for Education in the future, if we decide that there is an outside examination that equates to our leaving certificate, to adopt it for our purposes. The order will be flexible enough to allow that to be done.

Deputy Tully and Deputy Lindsay both mentioned specific cases that had been brought to their notice of persons who had got four honours in the leaving certificate last year and in one case had not got Irish and in another had not got Latin and who were doing these subjects this year. I have decided that this type of person—there must not be more than three or four of them in the whole country—should come within the ambit of the Bill and I can give that assurance that we will devise arrangements whereby these particular cases will come within the ambit of this year's higher education grants scheme.

Referring again to the question of having the GCE equated to our leaving certificate, looking further afield to Europe, it could become necessary to have European examinations of similar standards equated to our own. I would retain that flexibility in the operation of the Bill in order to enable appropriate decisions to be made in such cases in the future.

The question of bringing in people who are at university at present is, I am afraid, out. Bluntly, it is a financial question: the money involved in bringing them in for one year would be £300,000. Then where does justice stop or begin? What about boys and girls who, through a lack of means, did not go to university last year? By bringing in last year's university entrants you would be doing an injustice, one could say, to boys and girls who might have been at the university last year but for lack of means. I think the best thing is to make a start.

If the Minister confined it to those at the university who would qualify for the maximum grant, that would be a relief to them.

I am afraid it is out although all my sympathy is naturally in that direction. We have made a start; let us continue. Another point raised was the question of open scholarships—I think it was Deputy Tully who mentioned it— which operate irrespective of means, 25 per cent in each county. I am discussing this matter at the moment with the universities with a view to raising substantially the number of entrance scholarships they will have in the coming year. These have no means test and they will now replace the open scholarships which existed heretofore. We hope to raise substantially the number of such scholarships, which is very low at the moment, which universities will offer on an open national basis.

Surely entrance scholarships to university will be available to all entrants.

I am having discussions at present with a view to having an announcement made on this matter very shortly. The difficulty is that there is only a limited number. I am now discussing the possibility of raising the number substantially.

The Minister cannot have a situation where he is going to have a number of these reserved for people earning over £2,600 a year?

No. They will be completely open, nobody excluded. I hope to make an announcement on this very shortly. Another major point that was made related to the question of teacher training. I assured the House on a previous occasion I have had several discussions with the teacher organisations and with the managements of the teacher training establishments about this matter and I propose to have it incorporated in a higher education Bill which I hope to have before the House inside the next few months. In this Bill we are going to affiliate teacher training establishments with the universities and we hope to incorporate by September or October 12 months a teacher-training course of university status so that every teacher, vocational, secondary and primary will do a graduate course through a combination of study between the training college, which will be an affiliated college of the university, and the university proper. So the difficulties mentioned in the present position in regard to teacher training, will disappear.

That would not make any difference unless the remuneration was very substantially increased because the reason they are leaving is that they are going to something better.

On the remuneration aspect, the recent salary tribunal report which equalises the salaries of all teachers has removed the anomalies and distinctions that existed heretofore between the three branches of teaching. This should meet practically the whole—nothing ever meets the whole case—of the problem of remuneration to which the Deputy refers.

I do not mean remuneration vis-à-vis other teachers; I mean vis-à-vis other professions. Surely there is no comparison between what they get——

I shall come to this point again. Deputy Lindsay and Deputy Tully spoke about the fact that the Department have a scheme for reducing the number of honours obtained by entrants to teacher-training courses compared with heretofore. I agree with this but I do not agree that there is necessarily an equation between higher honours status and the good teacher category. Indeed, I am not relying on my own word for this; I have the word of the principal of one of the most prominent teacher-training establishments in the country that he is not at all satisfied that this equation exists. Our ratio of 5.3 honours to every entrant, which is the average—in some cases, it is six or seven or eight—into the teacher-training courses is far above anything that exists in any other country in the world. In fact if this will have the effect of even halving that, it will still be higher than that of Britain or any other European country in regard to teacher-training.

The weakness of the system heretofore has been that economic circumstances have pushed into teacher-training people who are equipped mentally and from the point of view of character for some other form of higher education than teaching. I am informed reliably that this has led to a lot of job dissatisfaction on the part of those teachers who felt, and rightly so, that their talents equipped them for another profession or another type of work which would give them greater remuneration. Our honours ratio, therefore, in regard to entrance for teacher training has been far too high. This has been dictated by economic circumstances and we are going to remedy that in this Bill.

Surely the honours ratio has not been dictated by economic circumstances?

Yes, precisely because of what I am saying. Student with high honours in their leaving cer tificates who heretofore have been pushed by economic circumstances into teacher training will now have the opportunity under this Bill when it becomes law of going to the university for another type of higher education; in other words their options will have been widened. They will be able to avail of a technological or whatever other form of education they desire. Some of them may still wish to train as teachers from a sense of dedication, but at least they will have other options open to them. It will be dictated not by economic circumstances but by what they think is the right course to take having regard to their talents.

We had four times more applications last year for entrance into the training colleges than we took in. Even if those with four, five or six honours who, heretofore, through economic circumstances would have been obliged to go in for teacher training, now avail of other opportunities, we shall still have a sufficient proportion of people of a good educational standard to go into teacher training. As I have said, the good teacher is not necessarily the person with the highest number of honours. It depends primarily on personality, on the ability to communicate and to get involved in the problems of his or her students. However, within 12 months we should have the whole matter ironed out when teacher training has been induced into the university system and we have provided a basic training for all our teachers.

I do not think there is anything else that arose in the course of the debate. I should like to thank the House for a very constructive discussion. I think all Parties will agree this is a progressive measure which, I would again emphasise, is just the first step along the road to complete equality of opportunity. I am certain that the investment the State is making in education, in the region of £52 million, which is more than double the investment over the past five years, will be rewarded.

We all realise that in a small country like ours the main assets we have are the skills and talents of our people. I have sufficient faith in our people to believe that we have a great degree of intelligence, skill and talent, and that if we can devise an educational system that can absorb our people to the fullest extent of their abilities, then this surely is a praiseworthy goal for us to seek to achieve, a goal that can bring not only the greatest benefit to the individual but to the community as a whole.

Question put and agreed to.
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