Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil leis na Teachtaí a rinne comhgáirdeachas liom as ucht mé bheith ceapaithe mar Aire Tailte. Is mian liom fosta, buíochas a ghabháil leis na Teachtaí a labhair ar an Mheastachán seo. Theaspáin siad gur thuig siad na fadhbanna atá le réiteach agus d'admhaigh siad go mbeadh sé doiligh iad a réiteach. Tig liom a rá leis na Teachtaí go ndéanfar na moltaí a bhí acu a scrúdú.
I should like, first of all, to thank the Deputies who have congratulated me on my appointment as Minister for Lands and also to thank the Deputies who took part in the discussion on the Estimate. I can assure them that the points raised by them will be carefully considered. They have all put forward solutions as to how these very difficult problems could be overcome. I do not necessarily agree with the solutions put forward, nevertheless, I can assure them that they will get full consideration.
I was rather surprised during the course of this debate to find some Opposition Deputies putting forward proposals which were tantamount to asking me to interfere with some of the ordinary workings of the Land Commission. This House has given the Land Commission certain statutory functions. These include that the Land Commission decide on the persons from whom land is to be acquired, the price to be paid for such land, the persons to whom the land is to be allotted and the price which the allottee will pay. These statutory functions are the basis for the trust of the Irish people in the Land Commission and this is as it should be and as I wish it to be.
I know that there are certain people who hold grievances against the Land Commission, particularly unsuccessful applicants for land. I suppose this is a natural reaction. I know that on rare occasions an injustice may have been done unwittingly, but it is generally accepted, on good grounds, that the Land Commission performs its duties impartially and does its best to be fair to everyone. An examination of the files in the Land Commission bears this out.
I should like to state here categorically in reply to Deputy Tully and to other Deputies that there is no political interference with the Land Commission. When Deputies write to me in connection with cases in which they are interested I pass on their communications to the Land Commission for consideration. When Deputies write direct to the Land Commission their letters go to the Land Commission and also are given full consideration. There is no political pressure of any kind put on the Land Commission to make particular decisions. It makes its decisions in the way it believes is right, free from any interference.
I am glad to have the opportunity of making this statement here. With regard to the question, raised by Deputy Flanagan, of receiving deputations I do not know of any regulation of my predecessor or of any other Minister for Lands preventing them from meeting deputations but I do know from my relatively short experience in the Department that requests to receive deputations in that particular Department are exceptional and if I were to accede to all the requests then I would have to devote all of my time to them to the exclusion of everything else.
I can only say that where I find it practicable I will receive deputations but Deputies will appreciate the position as I have already stated it. It may not be very often practicable, but in any case I will make available the officers of my Department to meet deputations. Deputies can always be assured that any representations that are made by them will be passed on to the Land Commission and that these representations will be given the full consideration that they deserve as coming from Deputies of this House.
I was interested in Deputy Flanagan's efforts in the course of a long speech to be all things to all men. He asked the Land Commission to grant land to all possible types of applicants starting with the ex-employees of estates, acquired by the Land Commission, right down to the landless men and then immediately accused the Land Commission of not giving permission to a certain man to buy an estate. He neglected, however, to let me know where we could get all the land to satisfy all the needs of all the applicants. In my estimation if we were to get the Six Counties, completely devoid of the population, we would still not have sufficient land to satisfy the claims of all applicants. The Land Commission have a list of priorities beginning with the ex-employees of estates acquired by them, the number of which is relatively small. The next category is married uneconomic landholders, rearing families, farming for a living and doing a good job on the land which they have. These are our main concern and while the other categories, including landless men, are given fair and reasonable consideration I think it will be accepted that the other group I have mentioned is entitled to precedence. This is not to say however, that other groups are not considered or do not get fair consideration. They do. Nevertheless, I think that all Deputies will accept that the uneconomic land holder, who is bringing up a family should be first in mind for any land which is available to the Land Commission for distribution.
Deputy Michael Murphy has condemned my predecessor for proposing that an economic farm should be in the region of 45 acres and he said that this is not a practicable proposition if we were to keep our people on the land. In my view it is a practical proposal in the sense that unless a farmer can get a reasonable standard of living he will not remain on it. He wants and is entitled to a standard of living which compares generally with standards of other people, and this he cannot have on a farm of low valuation. As well as keeping our people on the land, the emphasis should be on keeping our people in rural Ireland.
Deputy Murphy suggested that this could be done by providing industrial employment in rural areas. Surely the Deputy should be aware that this is Government policy and that the small industries scheme is especially devised for this purpose. I might add that in my capacity as Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for the Gaeltacht I concentrated on this particular element in the Gaeltacht for the past three years and with considerable success, as will be clear, I think, in my Estimate for the Department of the Gaeltacht. I am a firm believer in the efficacy of rural industry to keep our people living in rural Ireland and I have a typical example of this in my own constituency. I do not agree with Deputy Murphy when he says that such industry would provide part-time employment for small farmers. You cannot operate industry on this basis but it would provide employment for his family and with their help thereby strengthen the economy of his farm and make it a much more economic unit for himself and his successor. The Deputy can be assured that I am deeply interested in this particular matter and that my Department will give all help and assistance to the Department of Industry and Commerce and any other body engaged in this work.
I am also examining how we can strengthen the economy of the small farmer by encouraging more co-operation. I announced some time ago that I was studying the results of experience elsewhere where combined or group farming is practised with a view to devising a scheme which could be appropriate to our circumstances. An estate in County Meath has been chosen for this experiment. An area of about 200 statute acres has been set aside for the accommodation of four migrants and four dwelling-houses are in the process of being built. These houses are dispersed but are spaced only about 200 yards apart. It is intended to erect a small shed at the rear of each house for fuel etc. and a big hay barn byre outoffice complex for use by the four migrants. The work of designing these out-offices is about to be put in hands. A list of migrant applicants who may be prepared to participate has been compiled and it is hoped to discuss matters with them within the next fortnight. It is envisaged that the four migrants will form a limited company and details of a suitable agreement will be worked out in the near future. This will be entirely voluntary and each participant will be free to withdraw, after a specified period, and revert to farming on his own, taking with him the value of his contributions.
I feel that the main reason why we have not been as successful as we would like in the field was that the main ingredient, which was the land itself, was not involved and I believe that this experiment involving as it does the land, has a much better hope of success. I should like to emphasise that I am very much aware of the problems and difficulties involved but I feel that, with the co-operation of all concerned, the migrants themselves, the Land Commission and the agricultural advisory services, the experiment can be a success. Should it prove to be so, I am hopeful that a new dimension can be added to the scope of Land Commission activities which can result in this type of co-operation taking place in areas where there is no land readily available for division and also among the general body of small farmers.
Deputy O.J. Flanagan referred to the attendance of Land Commission inspectors at auctions and suggested that they did not attend at sufficient auctions. This is not the case. In fact, the Land Commission has made regular use of its powers to hold up sales of estates until it had an opportunity of deciding whether or not it was interested in taking over the lands for the relief of congestion. I have a note here which indicates that in the last year, that is the year ended 31st March, 1968, under section 13 of the 1965 Act notices were issued in 502 cases.
On the question of the price paid for land, which was raised by a number of Deputies, the Land Commission must concern itself with the price the tenants to whom the land is being allotted are capable of paying. I am glad to be able to say, on the general question of land acquisition, that the amount of land in the machine this year is a record and it augurs very well for the intake of land in the coming year.
The life annuity scheme has been criticised mainly for what is suggested to be its lack of success. In the first place, I feel this scheme has not yet got a fair trial. We must remember that the scheme is only in operation for a year, and, I think it must be recognised that there is a very difficult psychological problem involved. We are dealing here with elderly people who are settled in their ways and, understandably, do not like change. I feel that, if we could prevail on a further reasonable number of these people to accept the scheme so that others could see for themselves how it works, we would then have the key to the situation. I would appeal to Deputies to assist me in whatever way they can in making this scheme known to people in their constituencies who can benefit by it.
I have asked the inspectors of the Land Commission to seek out, as far as they possibly can, those people and explain to them the conditions of the scheme. We have in the Department a number of booklets explaining this scheme and we will be glad to provide Deputies with copies, if they desire them.
The self-migration scheme is also in the same category in the sense that it is something new. It takes some time to sell such a scheme to the people concerned and, again, I would appreciate any assistance I can get from Members of the House in helping to increase the number of those who are willing to take part in it. I should like to stress also in relation to these two schemes that they are not in substitution for but are complementary to our ordinary methods of acquisition. Therefore, every acre of land which becomes available to us under these schemes is a gain. In fact, we stand to gain about 2,000 acres at the present moment from these schemes.
Complaints have been made by a number of Deputies about the length of time lands have been held up by the Land Commission. They have stated that they feel that these lands should be divided more quickly. I should like to say that every effort is made by the Land Commission to have the land divided as quickly as possible and I would like to point out that the total amount of arable land on hands is never greater than two years' total intake of land from all sources.
I agree that some lands are held for a considerable time but this is usually because there are legal difficulties involved such as title or in some instances because it is deemed necessary to get further lands in the particular district concerned to make a more effective division. I can assure Deputies that, contrary to opinions expressed by some of them, the Land Commission does not hold over land for the purpose of making money at auctions. In fact, because of the outgoings such as the servicing of bonds, for example, sometimes the Land Commission does, in fact lose money. The Land Commission would be just as pleased as the Deputies or as anybody else if they could get this land off their hands more quickly. However, we are concerning ourselves with this problem to see in what way we can speed up the allocation of land.
As I have said, due to the increased work in pilot areas and in other schemes there has been a considerable increase in the inspectorate but this needs to be further increased and I propose doing this by having non-professional officers appointed. This would again help in speeding up acquisition and disposal of land. I want to point out that we are having considerable difficulty in recruiting professional staff. Deputy Flanagan stated that he could not understand why we have this shortage and that in fact there should be no difficulty in recruiting staff. I am sure the Deputy is aware that the Land Commission inspectors are university graduates—engineers and agricultural scientists. These professional people are in short supply and there are many bodies and many institutions competing with us for their services.
To illustrate the difficulties we face in recruiting personnel such as these I will give the results of some well-publicised competitions which were held in the last few years. In 1965 a competition for agricultural scientists was held. Twenty-two people were successful but only 13 took up duty. In May, 1967, there was a competition for engineers and only one officer was recruited. In October, 1967, there was another competition for agricultural scientists. There were 19 successful candidates and only five accepted. It is on account of this continuing shortage of professional personnel that I have decided to recruit a new type of sub-professional outdoor officer.
Deputy Flanagan also spoke on the question of foreigners buying Irish land although I had already explained in my statement that permission would not be granted to non-nationals to purchase land in order to engage simply in those forms or lines of production commonly practised by our farmers but only if the properties concerned were properties unlikely to attract Irish buyers. I have here some cases of lands which were sold last year. We had for example an area in Kerry of 128 acres which had a valuation of only £2. We also had cases of stud farms being bought. It can be taken that we are particularly careful about any lands that are being sold to foreigners and no land is being permitted to go into the possession of foreigners for the purposes of ordinary agricultural pursuits.
With regard to the game legislation we are bringing this in next year. It is difficult to say precisely when because, as I am sure Deputy Flanagan and others will recognise, consultation must take place with a considerable variety of interests so as to ensure that the Bill will be generally acceptable. This has been going on for some time and I can assure Deputy Flanagan and the House that it will be brought in as soon as it is possible.
Some praise was given to the work done in Kennedy Park. The very large number of visitors to Kennedy Park and to other centres in our forests is proof of the need for such parks. We are anxious to provide more amenities of this kind and we hope in the future to be able to continue this type of work in other forests.
I should like to add another word to what I have said in relation to the improved price for forestry land. As well as this we are endeavouring to streamline our land acquisition machinery in relation to forestry. Under the old system detailed inquiries were made in the Land Registry about each offer received before it issued to the inspector for report. This involved a long delay before inspection of the land. The new arrangements now coming into force provide that all offers will go immediately to the local acquisition officers for inspection as quickly as possible. Again, under the old system an area found suitable on inspection was reported back to headquarters and such matters as sub-division requirements were cleared before a written offer was issued to the owner. This entailed still further delay before the owner knew whether we were prepared or not to buy and also before he knew how much we were willing to pay.
Now, under the new system the inspector will return soon after his original inspection with power to close the deal at the approved price subject to verification of ownership and clearance of any questions in relation to sub-division. As these new arrangements come into force we will be able to offer a much quicker service to anybody offering land to us. There must still be some cases of delay in clearing title and so on but in all cases the man offering the land will be able in the minimum possible time to find out whether the land suits us and how much he is likely to get for it. In relation to the payment for forestry land the two assessments we have to make are firstly the volume of timber that can be grown on the land and the value of the timber, and the other is the cost of development.
I was asked about the planting of cutaway bogs. There are many areas where manually cutaway bog has been acquired over the years and these have been successfully planted. The only sizeable area of cutaway acquired so far from Bord na Móna is at Lyreacrompane in Kerry. In 1965 550 acres were acquired there.
The planting of this area is proceeding. Bord na Móna have indicated that no further extensive area of bog will become available for a considerable time. They cannot release areas piece-meal or on a staged basis because their mechanised method of operation requires the use of the whole area for the entire life of the bog. The Forestry Division has research work in progress on a small area of mechanised cutaway bog at Clonsast. The work so far confirms that no difficulty will arise in raising forest crops on such a site, provided sufficient depth of peat is left on the bog after Bord na Móna operations have ceased. An Foras Tionscal also have experimental work in hands on the use of cutaway bog for agricultural and horticultural purposes.
Deputy Tully raised the matter of consultation between the local authorities and the Land Commission when houses are being built or roads laid by the Land Commission. In fact, this consultation does already take place and the Land Commission, so far as I am aware, tries to bring the roads up to the standard the county council would like to have.
He also raised the question of holidays for forestry workers and said that my Department had given an assurance that a settlement would be reached within a few weeks. That is not correct: the Department did not give such an assurance but the matter has been actively followed up and it is hoped that a decision will soon be possible. Also, in regard to the 11th round for lorry drivers, this matter has been settled and instructions for payment of arrears have been issued.
Deputy Flanagan raised the matter concerning the magazine Build. He was rather perplexed by the startling allegations made in this publication concerning the activities of the Forestry Division and the Land Commission in the Rockingham estate. May I assure him that, if he were a regular reader of this publication, he would merely have been amused? The allegations were, of course, completely wild and the writer relied on a combination of carefully selected photographs and misleading statements to suggest a campaign of neglect and deliberate destruction being pursued at public expense.
Rockingham estate was acquired in 1959. Rockingham House had already been destroyed by fire in 1957. Subsequent to the estate's purchase, much further damage to the woodlands and to various buildings and bridges was caused by Hurricane "Debbie" in September, 1961. Subsequent further damage by vandalism occurred notwithstanding the best efforts of my Department and local responsible bodies.
Portion of the estate was taken by the Land Commission for the creation of migrants' holdings and the balance was in the first instance acquired by the Forestry Division for normal forestry development. It was subsequently decided to develop the Forestry area as a national forest park and the allocation of the estate between Forestry Division and Land Commission was revised so as to include in the forestry area the amenity parkland as well as the woodand areas.
While planning of this new project was proceeding, actual work up to 1967, apart from a small harbour project financed by Bord Fáilte, was confined to the Land Commission's normal development of the area for which it was responsible, at a cost to the State of £51,500, and forestry work on clearance of storm damage at no significant cost.
I should like to point out now that this is all that happened prior to the publication of this article and that the cost up to that stage was £51,500. Plans for the further development of the forest park project were published in November, 1967 and development has since got under way. The project is a very ambitious one, jointly sponsored by the Forestry Division and Bord Fáilte, and no effort is being spared to make this one of the finest forest parks in Europe. I need hardly say that in our planning we are trying to preserve all that we can of the earlier estate amenities and we have, indeed, gone to great trouble to restore features damaged by storm and subsequent vandalism.
Even today, if Deputy Flanagan were going in that direction, I should be glad if he would call in and see for himself the progress made. I think he would be very satisfied that the work done by the Department is first class. In a couple of years the first stage of the park project will be completed.
If there is anything to which I have not replied and if the Deputies concerned will get in touch with me I shall be very glad to reply to any points they have raised. I can assure all Deputies that points raised by them on this Estimate will get full consideration from me and my Department. Again, I want to express appreciation of the various contributions made by Deputies on this Estimate.
