(Cavan): As I said before the debate adjourned, I welcome this order which improves the position from the point of view of pensions of those members of the Garda Síochána who entered the Taca Síochána initially and the position of the ban-gardaí from the point of view of reducing the qualifying period for marriage gratuity from six years to five years. It is absolutely essential that the Garda Síochána should enjoy as favourable pension conditions as other State servants. However, I do not think the Minister goes far enough in this order. There are other grievances which should be remedied.
Committee on Finance. - Garda Síochána Pensions Order, 1969: Motion (Resumed).
Debate resumed on the following motion :—
That Dáil Éireann approves of the Garda Síochána Pensions Order, 1969 made on the 15th day of July, 1969, by the Minister for Justice with the sanction of the Minister for Finance under Section 13 of the Police Forces Amalgamation Act, 1925. — (Minister for Justice).
This order is limited to two specific classes and it does not open up a debate on the whole question of Garda Síochána pensions. I must ask the Deputy to relate his remarks to the order.
(Cavan): I bow to your ruling. This order entitles a small section of the Garda Síochána to have reckoned for pension purposes the years they served as members of the Taca Síochána. I agree with that. They shall not, however, be entitled to reckon those years of service for lump sum or gratuity purposes. I think the Minister should have gone the whole way. Reducing the qualifying period for gratuity purposes for the ban-ghardaí is welcome. It would be unreasonable to place the ban-ghardaí in a less favourable position than other State servants. The rules of order prevent me from going into in depth a subject which this order highlights. The Garda Síochána should be treated in all respects on a par with all other State servants in order to ensure that they will not go about their duties with chips on their shoulders, believing they are the Cinderellas of the State servants. That is not good for the force and it is not good for the citizens who have to come into contact with members of the force from day to day.
You have ruled, Sir, that I cannot go into all the grievances that I would like to go into and I will reserve such data and information as I have on the subject for another occasion. Let us hope that whenever that other occasion comes along, the debate on the Minister's Estimate, the very definite and genuine grievances which garda widows in particular are now labouring under will have been remedied. Every Deputy knows that widows of gardaí are being disgracefully treated and have a genuine——
We are having a full discussion on this.
I already warned the Deputy. He seems to be anticipating the debate he thinks may come up on the Minister's Estimate.
(Cavan): I will finish by saying that members of the force going about their day-today duty must, under present circumstances, be more concerned about what is going to happen their widows after their death, under the present system of pensions, than about performing their duties. That is bad for the gardaí and for the citizens and I can realise, indeed, why the Minister is reluctant to get into a debate——
I must protest, Sir, against this lefthanded way of overruling your ruling and holding the House in contempt.
(Cavan): I will conclude by saying that I hope that all this will be remedied when the Estimate comes along.
I should like to welcome this order as an overdue step in the right direction. I should like to draw the Minister's attention to an injustice suffered by a number of people who may be covered by Article 3 of this order. This is the fact that police who retired at a time when pay was low get less for the rest of their lives than gardaí who may have waited a little longer until pay has increased because pensions are computed as a fraction of pay earned by the garda at the time he retires. We should ensure equality between these people and not have the position that a garda may retire just before a pay rise thus getting a smaller pension for the rest of his life than somebody who waits a little longer.
In actual fact this order covers very few people. The vast majority of the members of the Taca Síochána will in due course be fully qualified as members of the Garda Síochána and eligible for pensions and all the other benefits which the Garda enjoy. There is only one man, an inspector of the Detective Office, affected by this, and it will be a very short time before the remaining members of the Taca Síochána are fully qualified as ordinary gardaí for the benefits that these men enjoy. I am only dealing with what is in the order. The qualifying period for marriage gratuities for ban-ghardaí has been reduced from six to five years because this was granted to the public service in 1968. This order is retrospective to January, 1968 and it puts ban-ghardaí exactly in the same position as women in the public service. I can, and the House can, only deal with what is here in this order. I am not going to chase the hares raised by Deputy Fitzpatrick. There is at this time a commission going into all aspects of the Garda service, as the House and the Deputy know. However, the Deputy wanted to take advantage of the Chair's leniency to try to get his point over and if he has succeeded he is welcome.
Question put and agreed to.