Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 12 Feb 1970

Vol. 244 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 26: Local Government (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.

—(Deputy Hogan.)

Mr. Treacy

Before progress was reported last night I had been expressing my disappointment and the disappointment of my party in respect of the indifferent approach of the Minister to the many problems with which he is charged. We had a marathon speech from him concerning matters appertaining to local government. He dealt, very properly, in the main with housing. His speech contained some 67 pages in English alone. Having listened very carefully and having read his speech again one could find no hope or consolation at all for a worthwhile breakthrough in respect of housing. The Minister's speech was not merely disappointing but I assert it was essentially conservative. Not alone did it not contain anything of a worthwhile, progressive nature but there is inherent in it attempts to cut back on essential schemes and services. These matters have been highlighted by the decision not to make grants available for what the Minister termed "luxury" homes.

There is no hope of additional money for such essential public amenities as swimming pools. This announcement will come as a disappointment to many local authorities who had been striving earnestly to provide swimming pools, not the least among them being the authority in my home town of Clonmel where much work had been done by a local committee.

Neither is there any breakthrough in accelerating the drive for improved water and sewerage facilities. There is continued indifference here despite the protestations we have been making during the years to try to secure essential moneys for this purpose. There is still no gleam of hope that these moneys will be forthcoming. The most saddening feature of the Minister's speech in so far as my party are concerned was the realisation that it is the working-class generally who suffer most in this scandal of housing. It is they who suffer privation and hardship because of high rents or because they are condemned to a long purgatory of waiting without hope of getting out of the appalling conditions in which they are forced to live.

In these circumstances it is disturbing to say the least of it that the Minister feels, as he stated categorically, that he expects there will be a slow down in the housing drive in the coming year because of increased costs. Indeed, the housing drive was at a snail's pace already and we have the worst record in Europe in this respect. To suggest, as the Minister did, that the situation will worsen is shocking. It will be received with dismay in every city, town and village in the country.

The Minister is unable to take anything like positive steps to curb prices. On the one hand he feels the housing drive will slow up because of rising costs and on the other hand he admits there is nothing he or the Government can do effectively to grapple with these rising costs in regard to land, house building costs and loan charges. This is inaction by a weak, irresponsible Government pandering to the vested interests in house building. It is a national disgrace for any Minister to say there is nothing he can do about rising prices, for land in particular.

The admission of the Minister that he cannot deal effectively with the land price problem, that he cannot bring land under some degree of public ownership, is a great pity. The Minister feels that to deal effectively with the astronomical prices being paid for land would entail most serious constitutional, legal, financial and administrative problems. The Minister throws the book at us in so far as doing anything at all to curb the unjustified increase in land speculation is concerned. He says any attempt by him to control land speculation must be ruled out as a practical proposition. He said other measures are being examined.

I earnestly ask him to tell us what the other measures are. This matter of speculation in land is too urgent and important to be treated in this dilatory fashion and I hope the measures being examined will be sufficient to control present exploitation. We have all been calling out—not merely Labour spokesmen but all people with social consciences—we have all been perturbed at the obvious racket going on in house building and in land speculation. We have all been scandalised at the unbridled liberty of the building agencies in increasing charges when and where they like. This was amply demonstrated recently in this city in respect of old loans. It was a disgraceful thing that people who borrowed money many years ago to build houses had to accept increased charges on these loans at the whim of the building society. Those borrowers had felt that the loan charges were fixed and unalterable. Now they are facing deep financial hardship.

It is a pity that we cannot have some effective action by the Government. All we get are these indications of helplessness to grapple effectively with rising prices, rising interest rates, rising costs all over. The Department of Local Government and the Government in general appear like pawns in the hands of the vested interests in housing. They are unable to speak out and to defend the people against these vested interests.

Mr. Hogan

A Tory Government.

Mr. Treacy

It is intolerable that we should have such weak and irresponsible Government pandering to the whims of the vested interests in house building and land speculation. It is all right for these Tacateers to get rich quickly through this kind of exploitation, and we in the Labour Benches must protest vehemently. They are making exorbitant profits; they are getting rich quickly at the expense of the mass of underprivileged, homeless people; they are battening on the people living in abject misery and privation. These steep increases in housing costs in the final analysis will be borne by the weakest in the community, by our council tenants, because it is they, in the long run, who will pay for these high profits. Is it any wonder that we have steep increases in rates, that we have controversy about the application of differntial rents? Yet the Minister comes to the House and admits publicly that there is nothing he can do to stop the racket.

Mr. Dowling

Does the Deputy suggest a restriction on labour costs? The workers are entitled to their rights, as well.

Mr. Treacy

I am suggesting that something be done about this abominable racket which is going on in this city where small portions of land are making astronomical prices. On the one hand, the Minister is admonishing local authorities to take speedy steps to acquire large pools of land for house-building and other essential services—playing fields, car parks, industrial estates. On the other hand, we know that the Minister has not the kind of money to assist us to do these things and is reluctant to make loans available to us. Deputy Dowling is sticking his head in the sand if he tries to pretend or to purport that this racket does not exist. It is there for all to see. No one, seemingly, is prepared to cry "Stop".

Mr. Dowling

One of your members is one of the speculators.

Mr. Treacy

That slander was nailed in this House.

Mr. Dowling

It was not.

Mr. Boland

And how you wish now he was not one of your members.

Mr. Treacy

That slander was used, before the last general election, against this honourable Deputy and it did not work. You tried to the best of your ability, and your Minister tried, last April, May and June to keep that Deputy out of this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Treacy

You peddled that kind of slander all over this city and you failed abjectly and the Deputy in question practically headed the poll.

Mr. P.J. Lenihan

I take it the Deputy is in favour of land nationalisation?

Mr. Treacy

I said last night that we did not want unbridled nationalisation of this kind. We want control of land designated for housing and other essential amenities. We are not asking for wholesale nationalisation, as I elaborated on last night when, I presume, Deputy Lenihan was at home in bed. We are not going to be trapped into making foolish statements of this kind. The Minister must, as best he can, cover up the scandal of housing in this city. It is a relatively easy thing for Dublin Deputies to do now in the absence of the Dublin Corporation which the Minister abolished.

Mr. Dowling

He did not. They abolished themselves by irresponsible action—irresponsibility in the Labour Party.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will Deputy Dowling please cease interrupting?

Mr. Dowling

Surely we cannot listen to that sort of nonsense?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has a remedy.

Mr. Dowling

Deputy Treacy is making erroneous statements.

Mr. Treacy

Where one man is in control of the lives of the vast majority of the people of this city, it is easy for the Minister and his agents, his henchmen, to put across a certain slant. In the absence of the corporation members, and in the absence of the democratic will of the elected members, this is becoming a relatively easy matter to put across. I trust the Minister will see the wisdom of giving back to Dublin its rightful assembly of members who were elected a few years ago and that he will let them be what they were intended to be, namely, the voice of the people in respect of social problems of this kind. Let them be something of a restraining influence on a manager and a managerial system which, in essence, is dictatorial— dictatorial even when you have these elected bodies working at full steam and in a responsible manner. A situation in which one individual has the power to control, to determine, the lives of a whole city of three-quarter million people is essentially undemocratic. The time is long overdue when Dublin Corporation should be reconstituted.

This happens to be Conservation Year. It would be remiss of me not to mention the importance of conservation and preservation in this country. I am glad the Minister devoted some time to it in his speech. I am particularly pleased that he has, and seemingly is accepting, the advice of this very excellent body, An Foras For bartha. I have nothing but admiration for and pride in many of the people working in this department. We look to them for great things in respect of so many matters—rationalisation, specialisation, in the building industry; matters appertaining to road construction of all kinds. At present, their views on conservation are of very real importance to our people. They are doing the important job of educating and alerting our people to the dangers inherent in the kinds of things happening in man's environment today; the kinds of things which man is doing, consciously or unconsciously, which destroy his natural environment. Up to now, at least, we have very largely an unspoiled country from the point of view of scenic beauty or the kind of contamination afflicting other nations. Nevertheless, it is important that we be on the alert and see to it that what happens elsewhere in this respect does not happen here.

The statement of Dr. David Cabot of An Foras Forbartha should be circulated in all our schools and should be read by every serious-thinking Irishman and Irish woman. This treatise of Dr. Cabot's, which will be delivered at Strasbourg in connection with Conservation Year, is of tremendous importance. It spells out the danger of pollution, ruining the natural beauty of our country, threatening wild life. It alerts us to the increasing danger of the use of pesticides and chemicals harmful to animal and bird life, pollution of waters, streams, lakes and estuaries. We are alerted here to the dangers inherent in the drainage of wet lands and bogs, and the threat it constitutes to wild life there, to wild fowl in particular. It questions the wisdom of expending so much money for so little return and the possible spoliation of wild life. Many people are becoming increasingly alarmed about the use of pesticides and other artificial commodities devised to increase the productivity of the land in crops and animals. It is time the State evinced an interest in these matters and took steps to ensure that not only is animal life not destroyed but that humans are not adversely affected by the use of insecticides and pesticides.

Pollution of our rivers and canals is a problem. Dublin Bay, the estuary of the Liffey, has virtually become a stinking cesspool and it is time this problem was effectively grappled with. It is worrying in the extreme that we have had a recurrence of the destruction of fish. The mass destruction of fish in many of our major rivers due to pollution is something which needs urgent attention. Greater control must be exercised in regard to effluent from industrial and agricultural sources and also from drainage of bogs or land.

Dr. Cabot spells out the inherent dangers: he warns us of the danger of oil pollution, of the danger of pollution from creameries which he says has a discharge from soilage with a biochemical oxygen demand 200 times that of domestic sewage; he warns us of the dangers inherent in the effluent from our factories, many of them State factories such as the sugar companies. Many people believe that the killing of fish in very large quantities was due to the effluent from a sugar company in respect of one of our major rivers. He tells us that the soilage effluent is extremely acidic and sugarbeet discharge highly alkaline; in sufficient quantities both are toxic for fish populations. We are warned in respect of large piggery units that they constitute a serious pollution hazard as also do fish hatchery and poultry farms. We are told that pig sewage is four times that of human sewage and that discharge from a large piggery is equivalent to a discharge of human sewage from a town with a population of 74,000. During 1969 there were over one million pigs in this country.

The report deals with the pollution of our rivers and recommends Government action. It seeks to ensure that when large industries are being established here, especially industries with a high pollution content, we should ensure that there is written into the contract guarantees that effluent of a dangerous kind will not be discharged. This is not being done effectively. In respect of the Gulf Oil Corporation some such endeavour was made but despite that a pipe burst in the terminal causing pollution in the Cork area and costing the local corporation £10,000 in compensation to fishermen.

We have also been alerted to the air pollution problem in this country. We are told that Dublin air is about twice as dirty as that of London. This is, indeed, an alarming statement from an authoritative source. The vast city of London, the home of the industrial revolution, was regarded by many people throughout the world as an essentially dirty city smog-wise and that we should now have the name of being twice as dirty is disconcerting in the extreme. It is estimated that about one ton of soot per minute is being deposited in each square mile in the Dublin city centre. These are alarming statistics and it is right that our people should be alerted to this serious threat to our environment. We want to preserve the natural beauty of our country, to preserve the wild life and the fish life, to end the kinds of things that threaten human and animal life. It appears modern science has been going too far, has not ascertained the cost involved in new thinking and it is only now that nations are being alerted to the fact that untold and irretrievable damage is being done.

I shall avail of this opportunity to praise An Foras Forbartha for the wonderful work they are doing in this regard and other agencies like An Taisce. They are groups of dedicated people who are concerned about what is happening all around us today; they are concerned about preserving objects of beauty, whether they be of architectural, scenic or historic importance. Anything that outrages our aesthetic taste in this regard is of concern to us and it is only right and proper that in a country which is largely uncontaminated by the things we are talking about, though we see some signs of ugliness and the threat of pollution particularly, we should safeguard ourselves against all these dangers.

An Taisce deserves the support of the Minister's Department. When they or An Foras Forbartha speak they speak with the voice of authority and experience, with the expertise and the vast knowledge they have of the problems and they should be listened to with respect by the Minister and his Department and their recommendations acted upon. It is not nice to see these State agencies or voluntary bodies treated with disdain, disregard or hostility whether it be in respect of Georgian buildings, the preservation of an old house, castle or moat or pollution of our canals or rivers. Their statements are of the utmost importance and should not be disregarded. It is fair to say that we can have progress and, at the same time, preserve the good things of life in this country. We look forward to effective legislation to deal with these matters —legislation that will not allow to happen here things which, unfortunately, have happened elsewhere in respect of the matters to which I have referred this morning.

Too many things of intrinsic value and historical importance have been swept away through indifference by the nose of the bulldozer and it is high time that we had some rethinking with regard to safeguarding the treasures of our country.

Before leaving this subject, I should like the Minister to indicate, if he can, when he hopes to bring in effective legislation restricting industry, agriculture and State and public bodies from causing the pollution of our rivers, streams, canals, estuaries, coastline and, even, the air. Perhaps the Minister would give a lead in this respect with particular reference to our State bodies and more particularly, perhaps, in respect of local authorities who are not blameless in this matter.

Untreated sewage passing into our rivers and streams is a serious problem in many parts of the country, and the problem of industrial and agricultural effluents referred to in Dr. Cabot's report also require urgent attention. I would ask the Minister to ensure that local authorities do their duty in respect of the treatment of sewage.

It has been alleged on a number of occasions recently that fish life in one of the rivers in my constituency has been killed completely. This is becoming an annual event because of the neglect of one of our local authorities with regard to the treatment of sewage. This is a scandal and it has outraged the feelings of the people in this area. It is a sad thing to see fish in their thousands being thrown out dead on to the river banks, as was portrayed recently on Telefís Éireann. The river to which I refer is the River Ara in County Tipperary.

I appreciate that the urban council are limited in their financial resources, as are all these small urban councils. This is where the Minister could come to the resuce by aiding such an urban authority to deal effectively with its sewage problem. In this way he would put a stop, once and for all, to the necessity for discharging into septic tanks once a year a cleansing agent containing a toxic ingredient lethal to all fish life. The same is true of many other rivers. If they are not affected by sewage they are affected by industrial or agricultural effuent.

The local authority to which I have referred in respect of the pollution of the River Ara are in a rather helpess position. Because of lack of finance they are unable to undertake the task and duty of providing a proper sewage system. The State have a responsibility to investigate this problem and to put up the necessary money to deal effectively with it.

Last night I referred briefly to the Minister's statement concerning the establishment of regional development organisations. Superficially I see nothing wrong with the formation of these bodies whose task in the main would be the co-ordination of effort in respect of the assets and amenities of their respective regions. The collection and dissemination of information in the region is also very desirable.

The overall well-being of these regions should be aimed at but, unfortunately, the proposal has been tied up with the Buchanan Report. I sought, when speaking last night, to impress on the Minister that if the establishment of regional development organisations is to be successful, he will have to dissuade all members of local authorities, irrespective of politics, from the notion that this proposal has anything to do with the implementation of the Buchanan Report.

Many of us believe the Buchanan Report to be alien to the needs and aspirations of our people. It is something which is being imposed on us. It is believed by many that the establishment of industrial group centres might lead to the depopulation of the hinterlands and to the dragooning of workers into these industrial zones. Rightly or wrongly we believe it would mean that many of our towns would become ghost towns and would make for the denuding of the countryside which is already denuded enough.

It is a pity that the name of Buchanan has been associated with this project. I believe it will have a deleterious effect because those of us who have read the Buchanan Report will have no truck with it whatsoever. The Minister is being evasive, perhaps deliberately so, as to whether the Government have accepted the recommendations of the Buchanan Report and, if so, when they propose to implement them; whether they have decided to accept part of the Buchanan Report and if so what part; and what aspects of the Buchanan Report are contained in the draft constitution for the establishment of regional development organisations.

Already the idea of industrial estates and growth centres of this kind is a source of deep disappointment to many people. There is much to be said for the establishment of an industrial estate and growth centre which should have the effect of attracting industry by reason of the special assistance, the many amenities such as factory buildings to rent, housing for the workers and the general technical skill and know-how which gathers around an industrial estate of this kind.

If we are to take Waterford as an example of an industrial estate, one can only express disappointment at the way it has developed. In the press this week disappointment is expressed by many important people in that city at the lack of progress being made there concerning the establishment of new industry, not only the lack of progress in respect of the provision of new industries but the closures or virtual closures which are taking place resulting in many redundancies in this estate.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not see how this arises on the Estimate for Local Government.

Mr. Treacy

Very good, Sir. I am merely making the point in passing. I am dealing specifically with the constitution of the regional development organisations which is a matter for the Minister and to which he has adverted in his brief. I merely wish to show they are not the great things they were lauded to be by Government spokesmen and there is disappointment and dismay about the way they are developing.

As to the kind of constitution which has been suggested for the establishment of these regional councils, I might express concern about the manner in which the membership is made up. In the region to which I belong, the south-eastern region, there is a draft constitution for the development organisation. If we look carefully at the suggested membership of the board we shall find that some counties would seem to have a much greater number of members than others. Carlow County and Kilkenny County as a whole would have three members each. Tipperary South Riding would have six members representing the various local authorities. Waterford could have six members and Wexford could have up to eight members if we take into account the representation from the harbour authorities of New Ross and Rosslare. If we take into account the regional tourist representation from Waterford, they, too, will have an extra seat on the board. Clearly a representative from each urban corporation and council does not give fair representation and I believe this will be borne out in the weeks and months to come by the reaction of these various counties to the proposals.

However, I see some intrinsic worth in the proposal. I shall give it my support and co-operation, but I hope the Minister will dissuade us that it has anything to do with the overall implementation of the Buchanan Report. I hope also that the managers, the executive officers of this group, which I understand will comprise representatives of the Department of Local Government, representatives of the IDA and, perhaps, some other State bodies, these Government spokesmen, will not orientate this organisation towards the implementation of a Buchanan plan, which as I said earlier, is alien to the best interests of the vast majority of the Irish people.

I said last night how deeply disappointed we were about the abandonment of the unemployment relief schemes last year. Would the Minister indicate whether this is a firm decision on the part of the Government or whether the decision to abandon these very worthwhile unemployment relief schemes at Christmas was a temporary measure taken last year by reason of the financial position in which the Government found themselves, and whether these schemes will continue next year and into the future? I want to emphasise the importance of these schemes, the wonderful work which was carried out under them by our respective local authorities, work which they cannot now do out of the rates. This grant was backed up by a local authority grant. It was not just State money that was involved. Invariably the local authority were expected to subscribe a certain amount.

The unemployment relief grant was introduced primarily to provide relief for those who were unemployed around Christmastime. On the instruction of the Department, the schemes were to have a very high labour content. They were to provide essential amenities and above all a decent standard of life for those who otherwise would be unemployed at the holy season of Christmas. I appeal to the Minister to re-introduce these grants because while they are withheld people are condemned to the dole. It is far better that the unemployed should be engaged on productive work rather than be handed out dole money. The Government have already abandoned the Local Authorities (Works) Act and this also is adversely affecting local authorities vis-à-vis their responsibility for providing essential services.

I support enthusiastically the suggestion made by the Minister about the introduction of traffic wardens for school children. This is the most effective way of training children to cope with the hazards of the road. Those of us who have been on the continent have been both pleased and surprised to see small school children standing at dangerous traffic points, properly clothed, perfectly trained, performing, most efficiently, all the functions, duties and responsibilities of a garda or a senior traffic warden. I was impressed by the respect which motorists had for these children. I was informed that to disobey one of them would be a mortal sin in the real sense of is being run in a rather experimental that word. I am aware that this system fashion in some parts of the country but I hope school managers in other parts will be courageous enough, in co-operation with the Garda, to train their pupils to perform these functions.

There is an increasing danger to both motorists and pedestrians in the growing number of straying animals on roads. Many people have died as a result of a straying animal or animals. The firmest measures ought to be taken against people who willingly and knowingly allow animals to stray on the roads. Such animals constitute a serious hazards and steps should be taken to have them impounded. We will support the strongest possible measures taken to grapple effectively with this problem.

More zebra crossings are needed in small towns. At present they seem to be confined to cities. We have to face the fact that very many small towns have a traffic congestion problem.

The daylight saving regulations mean that schoolchildren have to leave home in the darkness of the morning. It is saddening to see large numbers of young children trying to find their way in the dark winter mornings to the school bus stop or even walking to school. The danger of accidents in these circumstances should concern all us all. The provision of reflectorised armbands was a very good idea. It was my colleague Deputy Tully who sent out a clarion call for the provision of this amenity, which was quickly responded to by all concerned.

I want to make a few critical remarks about the house repair and reconstruction grants. There is too long a delay in investigating applications for these grants. Very often much of the work is started before the appropriate inspector arrives. If this advice is to be worthwhile it must be given before the work commences. Many people have had grants disallowed because they had transgressed the regulations, even though some of the sins they committed were very minor ones. In respect of these repair and reconstruction grants he is a foolish person indeed who thinks that he will get a State grant free, gratis and for nothing.

Many of us have been disturbed at the steep increases in valuations which have resulted from repairs to houses. As sure as light follows darkness, after the expiration of seven days, all these categories of people who have availed of grants for repair and reconstruction will have their valuations reinvestigated and considerably increased. Local authority members have been startled by news of the steep increases in valuations which have resulted even from minor repairs without reconstruction of any kind. Ordinary maintenance work has brought about increases in valuation of two or three times the original amount.

I do not know what control we have over this or what test is applied by the valuation officers but I know it causes deep dismay and anxiety and places a colossal financial burden on people who, if they knew seven years ago that this would happen, would not, I believe, have embarked upon the renovation of their homes. It is too great a price to pay to have one's valuation increased three or four times, at a time when there is a spiralling increase in rates. I would ask the Minister to indicate what system is applied, what yardstick is used, to measure increases in valuation, and how they can be justified.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will appreciate that the Minister has no responsibility for the Valuation Office.

Mr. Treacy

I appreciate that no one seems to have any responsibility in regard to this matter of valuation increases. The group responsible seem to be a virtual law into themselves and answerable to no one. I am entitled to comment on what can happen as a result of repairing one's home and I want to dissuade people from the foolish notion that they are getting something for nothing from the Government. This is an aspect of the matter that has been peddled about and has had a good political effect for the Government for a number of years.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am sure the Deputy will agree that the Minister whose Estimate is now before the Dáil is not responsible for this?

Mr. Treacy

I will not dwell on it any longer. I have made my point. I want also to express concern about what I believe is a tendency on the part of engineers and public officials generally, at local and national level, to be prone to condemn houses too quickly. They are prone to decide that houses are incapable of being repaired at reasonable cost. We have known them to be wrong on so many occasions. It is inbred or ingrained in engineers and architects to say that houses are incapable of being repaired at reasonable cost.

Their tendency always is to build new houses and, as a result of this foolish policy, the real core of our towns and cities has been destroyed and the old natives of our towns and cities have been forced out to the perimeter. In this city they have been forced out very many miles into the country into vast housing estates. We believe this policy is wrong. There are very many tenement houses in the heart of this city which could and should have been reconstructed and which could and should have provided homes for the people of the heart of this city.

Mr. P.J. Burke

That is not my experience as a member of the corporation.

Mr. Treacy

The Deputy will get his chance. Instead of that, these people have been forced out four and five miles in order to secure a home.

Mr. P.J. Burke

There were people killed in this city because of bad houses.

Mr. Treacy

The important streets of our towns have presented a shocking appearance because of the demolition and destruction of houses which could have been repaired at reasonable cost. We deplore this policy of condemning houses which could, with a serious effort, be repaired and provide decent homes for people.

It is being realised more and more that, as a social amenity, the provision of playing fields must now be given a pretty high priority. Members of local authorities have been remiss in not including in our housing plans the provision of playing fields for children and, indeed, for adults and the provision of communal centres. I would hope that this would be possible in future. I realise the difficulties involved. I realise that local authorities, by reason of lack of finance, were unable to provide these amenities, were hard-pressed to build houses, were obliged to use the most stringent economy in order to build houses as quickly and as cheaply as possible and that the provision of playing fields was not possible.

In these times, especially having regard to the need for children to pursue healthy recreational activities, and to curb the growing incidence of juvenile delinquency in many cities and towns, the provision of playing fields is of paramount importance. I hope the Minister will see his way to making special grants available to local authorities for this very essential purpose, to get the children off the streets, to provide them with healthy pursuits, to prevent them from forming gangs and getting into trouble and ending up in the courts and in the reformatories and prisons, as has happened, unfortunately, in too many instances.

In his speech the Minister took to task all those of us who are opposed to the differential rents system and inferred that in opposing it as alleged we are opposing the re-housing of the less well-off section, the aged, the sick, the unemployed and others. This argument simply will not work.

This party was one of the first to propose the idea of differential rents. The first man to mention the desirability of some form of grading in this way was Big Jim Larkin and he did this for the humane reason that his social conscience was disturbed by the shocking problem of housing in Dublin. Indeed, that problem continues today. We see the need for a differential rent system but what we are opposed to is the manner in which the system is being administered. In many instances it is being administered in an inhumane way; it is making inroads into the privacy of council tenants and demanding of them that each employed person, or even an unemployed person, must submit a certificate of his earnings. The system is such that all the earnings of the household are taken into account. There are small concessions but we believe that it is wrong that the differential rent should be based as a maximum, the economic rent in many instances being stripped of State subsidies. The rich man who builds his mansion, the farmer, or any house builder is not stripped of the State subsidy, only the council tenant.

This is unfair and does not take into account human failings and family differences and all the earning of all the children should not be taken into account. No regard is had for the indifference or lack of responsibility of a son or daughter to the parents. Unfortunately, this happens in many instances. No regard is had to the fact that many of these young people are preparing to get married, are trying to save money in order to obtain a house and furnish it. These young people have their own responsibilities. It is particularly wrong that the Minister should have taken upon himself the power to say that all tenants must now come under a differential rent system and to go further and threaten local authorities that if they did not apply the system they would be penalised by the withdrawal of subsidies.

Our managers, our housing authorities, are now compelled to apply the differential rent system. There is no uniformity and the schemes differ from one housing estate to another, in many instances even within the same borough or corporation. These are some of the problems with which we have had to contend but, most of all, there is the rightful feeling of indignation on the part of council tenants who were on fixed rents that their right to continue to pay a fixed rent was disregarded and a differential rent was imposed on them. I have often felt that these tenants had a legal right in the matter. I know that the Minister was very slow to impose this edict on Dublin Corporation but, unfortunately, many local authorities throughout the country were panicked into applying the scheme completely and the rights of an old tenant to continue to pay a fixed rent was disregarded.

Mr. P.J. Burke

Can he not purchase his home now at a lower rent?

Mr. Treacy

There are some people who do not wish to purchase their homes. I believe in the diffusion of private property and it is a good thing that people should purchase their own homes, but there are some who think that they enter into too big a commitment in purchasing their homes and accepting liability for the maintenance of that property ever after. As the Deputy has mentioned the matter, I should also like to say how much I deplore the unfairness of the present purchase scheme. All of us had purchase schemes based on the original cost of the erection of the house and many people purchased their homes on that fair basis, but a short time ago we had an intimation from the Minister that this system would cease and now we have the new system whereby the purchase of houses from local authorities will not be on the basis of the original cost but on the present-day value of the property. This meant that in many instances the original price of the house increased fivefold and, unfortunately, people who did not get in before the fixed deadline will now have to pay heavily for their omission.

I do not believe that due regard has been had to the length of time tenants have been in occupation or to the amenities, or rather should I say lack of amenities, in regard to these old houses. Our old tenants are being held up to ransom in many instances by these new purchase schemes. The Minister has gone too far and this action will put off people from buying their houses. It has sounded the deathknell for our purchase schemes. Only the affluent tenant who falls in for a legacy will now be able to buy his house. The schemes with which I am familiar are very largely prohibitive. I would ask the Minister to consider favourably any changes suggested to him by local authorities in regard to these purchase schemes. The local authorities are best able to judge the mood of people and their ability to meet commitments of this kind. I would appeal to him not to be too rigid in regard to the prices charged at present otherwise the grant principle which we all laud and the chances of our older tenants becoming householders will be completely frustrated. Maybe the Minister was wise in restraining to some degree the rapid purchase of our housing estates.

Mr. P.J. Burke

Hear, hear.

Mr. Treacy

Many of us were perturbed that our pool of houses was being rapidly depleted and consequently we could not hold out much hope of rehousing all the people in need. Our waiting lists were becoming something of a joke in that our pool of houses was being greatly depleted by sale and as we had lost control of these houses they could be disposed of for personal gain with no benefit at all to the people on the waiting list directly in need. It is desirable that our housing authority should have a reasonable pool of houses available so that there is some glimmer of hope for people on the waiting lists.

The Minister mentioned group water schemes. Many of us were sceptical about the emphasis which the Minister's Department were laying on the desirability of people embarking on group water schemes. Fortunately, many of the schemes with which I am familiar have been, up to now, a success. I hope that will continue. Much needs to be done to improve the system of dealing with group water schemes and accelerating them. I know of no good reason why there should be two engineers involved in processing a group water scheme—the local authority engineer and the engineer from the Minister's Department. These two engineers must visit, inspect and carry out all the various functions in respect of a group scheme. I submit that this is something which could be done quite competently by the local authority engineer who is in close touch with the people on the spot and has the resources to carry out the various tests as to the nature of the supply, its purity and the general planning of the scheme. It makes for unnecessary duplication. I know the Minister's Department make a grant available and this gives them the right to have a say in the matter but there is unnecessary duplication and waste involved.

However good the idea of group water schemes, they will never equal in importance the design and concept of the regional water schemes. It is a pity we are not receiving more co-operation from the Minister's Department in respect of the implementation of these regional schemes which were designed at great cost and in many instances paid for and which are the real answer to supplying all our people where possible with piped water. Doing the job by way of group schemes is doing it piecemeal and is not solving the problem at all. It is all right for the industrious people who take the initiative and embark on the group scheme. Having done that, they merely supply themselves and there is little if any to spill over to their neighbours.

Nothing of this kind can reduce in importance the necessity for adhering to the overall plan of the implementation of regional schemes. The more of these group schemes that are embarked on the less urgent and the less important in the Minister's eyes and in his Department's eyes will be the matter of providing money for the regional schemes. I believe this is frustrating the overall plan which was designed to carry the maximum amount of water to a given source and to have it extended to the whole hinterland. This is the proper way to provide piped water but seemingly it is too costly from the Minister's point of view. He simply does not have the kind of money which is required for the implementation of what he calls grandiose piped water schemes. All we are getting is this footling arrangement of providing a bit of money here and there for group schemes. In the absence of the real thing let us have group water schemes but they must not be allowed to take from the urgency and importance of proceeding with the regional schemes. Does the Minister hold out any hope of our being able to implement our regional schemes? Does he hold out any hope of giving us sanction for the necessary money—very big money I admit—for the implementation of these schemes?

Mr. Boland

Does the Deputy want the list again this year?

Mr. Treacy

I will go through the list if necessary.

Mr. Boland

Come in and listen to it this year. The Deputy did not listen to it the last time I read it out to him.

Mr. Treacy

We have been trying to prevail upon the Minister to give us money for water for a number of years and he has failed to do so. Any money we have secured from the Minister's Department has been virtually dragged out of him. There were small allocations of £100,000 now and £100,000 again and in giving us that kind of money he placed our council in the invidious position of having to vie with others which led to dissention, disputation and resentment over a paltry £100,000. Not only did the Minister not give us the kind of money we wanted, he would not even deign to receive a deputation. Not only that but when we had a prospect and when we were compelled to turn to a foreign country as he would call it—England —and when we had secured approval——

Mr. Boland

I certainly would call it a foreign country. Would the Deputy not?

Mr. Treacy

——from the Royal Liver Society of Liverpool for an allocation of £250,000 the Minister took the dog in the manager attitude and would not allow us to take more than £100,000. When we went back for extra money a short time ago we found that this society could not accommodate us. Not only did he not give us the money but he frustrated our efforts to secure the money from this outside source and would not deign to receive a deputation to talk about the matter. If he wants it that way he can have it.

While we have made progress in regard to the Dundrum scheme and the Emly scheme, the most important scheme of all is still static. I refer to the Ardfinnan regional scheme which today stands precisely where it stood in 1965 when, all the essential preliminary work having being done, the plans were submitted to the Department for approval of a loan. No progress whatever has been made in that scheme which is designed to serve a large area and to provide for the needs of 8,000 people. It will cost something in the region of £704,000 in three stages As I have said, it was submitted for approval in 1965 but so far no allocation of money has been forthcoming.

Apart from the intrinsic value of this scheme in an area with a population of 8,000, comprised mainly of farmers, cottiers and householders in towns such as Cahir, there is the health of the people to be considered. This was highlighted recently when it was revealed that for a number of years past we have had in the heart of this region, in Newcastle near Clonmel, a pocket with a typhoid history. We had been advised to treat this subject with caution and discretion, but the news is out now.

There have been four cases there in recent years and in these circumstances it is imperative that we be granted the necessary money for the implementation of piped water and sanitary facilities. I understand that is the only way to ensure that this dreadful scourge is brought to an end. It is true that a group scheme has been embarked on at Newcastle through the industry and the initiative of the people there. They have banded themselves together and have made appreciable progress.

It is my duty to alert the Minister for Local Government to his bounden duty to us in Ardfinnan, Newcastle and Clonmel to eradicate this dreadful scourge, to get to its source. The only way to do that is to provide piped water and sanitary facilities. We showed caution and restraint in the matter of the typhoid pocket in the belief that the situation there had been very largely resolved from the point of view of further outbreaks. However, I want to place on record the fact that when the deputation from Ardfinnan came here recently they were not received by the Minister or by any member of the Cabinet. They were met by two senior officers of the Department and they got on reasonably well. They came out from that meeting with an assurance that £100,000 would be allocated, not specifically for Ardfinnan but in respect of a number of other schemes, notably Dundrum. That deputation conveyed to the officers of the Department the anxiety about their being a health hazard in the Ardfinnan region and that there was this typhoid danger if something was not done quickly.

We have been instructed by our various local authorities, particularly the county council, to bring this matter of public health urgently to the notice of the Ministers for Local Government and Health so that they may take action jointly on it, so that the best brains in the Department of Health can be employed with the financial support of the Department of Local Government. There is no other way out.

Before passing from group schemes, I want to ask the Minister to do all he can to expedite the implementation of a group scheme at present with him for approval. Concern has been expressed at the delay in having approval got for the scheme in respect of Poulatar, Ardfinnan. I should be very greatful if the Minister could give some assurance about this scheme when he is replying. I am concerned that condoning group schemes is to the detriment utterly of major regional schemes.

One of the biggest schemes in our area and, indeed, one of the biggest group water schemes in the country was the Ballylooby group water scheme. At very great cost and by dint of great effort and much civic spirit, all the people concerned banded themselves together and joined in a spirit of goodwill towards the realisation of this scheme, which goodwill, unfortunately, was disrupted from time to time by various things, in the main emanating from the Minister's Department. I am glad to say that the scheme is now a reality. I have been told it is our second biggest group water scheme. Certainly it is very extensive. The spirit of co-operation was not helped by the attitude of the Minister's Department and, indeed, of Government spokesmen and Deputies of this House. It was alleged recently in this House that a Telefís Éireann film of this group water scheme had been faked. In the interests of the integrity of the people in charge of that film unit in Telefís Éireann—"On the Land"—a group of men who, by the excellence of their films and the knowledge they impart to rural Ireland, have made a name for themselves and have won world acclaim and an important prize at an international conference, the allegation about this film, in particular that the location of the pump is a fake, should be nailed as an untruth. In fairness to the Telefís Éireann personnel, the Minister has a responsibility to tell this House and the people that the allegation was incorrect. It is an unfair reflection on the integrity of these men that an imputation of this kind should be made against them. I assert, without fear of contradiction, that the film was a fair and a factual representation of the position at Ballylooby. There was no attempt in any way to distort the position. Deputy Davern's statement that this film was faked in respect of the location of the pump and was designed to embarrass people there is untrue, cannot be substantiated and should be withdrawn. There is an onus on the Minister to clear up this matter in the interests of the people there and particularly in the interests of the people involved in the presentation of that film. They have won for themselves high acclaim not merely in this country but throughout the world by the excellence of the presentations they telecast on Telefís Éireann. They have won world awards already. It is a libel on those people that such an allegation should be made, which I believe to be untrue. If we are to have one inquiry we might as well have a second one in respect of the presentation of these facts.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should not refer to matters which are the subject of an inquiry.

Mr. Treacy

I shall have another opportunity of raising this matter in the House and I may well decide to do that.

The Minister's contribution on this occasion was deeply disappointing. Not alone was their an air of complacency in relation to our housing problem but there was an element of vain boasting in his remarks that appreciable progress was being made. It would be a strange situation if more houses were not being built in these days, having regard to the scientific knowledge which is now available in relation to house-building; having regard to the rationalisation and the specialisation of that industry, the high incidence of machinery being used for the purpose, the speed and dispatch with which houses can be built. Given any help at all, it is automatic that we should be building houses much more quickly. With any kind of endeavour, we could double the output of new houses by reason of the facilities available to us through modern science. In the light of all of these circumstances, it is not good enough to pretend that all is well. The problem remains with us. I hope the Minister will take his courage in his hands and tackle the problem of the racketeers and exploiters in this industry whether they be land or property-owners, exploiters of our young people in respect of rents or exploiters in respect of unfair interest charges—exploiters of any kind.

In the absence of that kind of approach, the proposals of the Minister in respect of local government and housing are extremely disappointing on this occasion. There is no hope. No solace is offered to the thousands of our people in urgent need of homes. There is no hope for newly-weds. There is no hope of the wonderful break-through we all anticipated in respect of this great scandal in our midst.

I trust the Minister will find it possible to reply to some of the points I have made. In particular, I hope to hear him on the extent to which the Buchanan Report proposals are really to be implemented in the regional councils which we are now expected to co-operate in establishing. I hope to hear him also on the other measures which he feels might have some good effect on containing the price of land. However, to cover up the problem is something none of us could stand for. It is a good thing that there is a social conscience in this country. It is well that there is a re-awakening and that people are taking a deep interest in this scandal, an interest which is growing and will continue to grow until such time as the problem is resolved. The Minister is sitting on a volcano the rumbles of which are extending and growing in intensity throughout the country. He is deaf if he does not hear the rumbles and the grumbles by way of protestation and the feeling of outrage amongst our people because of the present very unsatisfactory position.

Mr. Dowling

At the outset, I wish to congratulate the Minister on his very extensive and very comprehensive brief and on the very excellent manner in which he gave details of the present position and future outlook in relation to many aspects of our national life which come under the jurisdiction of his Department. It is very heartening to see the Minister going into such exact details.

Having heard Deputy Treacy's speech, one must wonder where he got some of his information. Certainly, he must not have been listening to the Minister if one is to judge by some of the references he made and which he repeated. It was interesting to hear the Deputies from Tipperary speak about the housing situation in Dublin. Having listened to them with great interest I am quite certain that not alone should they build houses in Tipperary but they should be able to heat them with hot air because we have had plenty of it here in the last couple of hours and also last night.

I wish to say a few words on the present position of Dublin housing and the prospects for the future and to mention at the outset the question of differential rents. Many speakers of the Opposition parties have indicated that the differential renting system at present in operation in Dublin city was the brainchild and the development of Fianna Fáil Ministers and members. I should like to put on record that the differential renting system was introduced in Dublin in 1950 during the term of the Coalition Government——

Mr. Treacy

I have gone on record as claiming it for Jim Larkin.

Mr. Dowling

I merely mention this because other members of the Labour Party have indicated that they are not a party to this scheme or decision. We have always accepted the principle of differential rents but I would mention that the Dublin members of our party have been examining the situation for some time, and the city manager has agreed to meet Deputies of our party to discuss aspects of the scheme with which we do not agree. We have made certain suggestions and proposals which will be examined in detail by the manager and the commissioner in due course and I am sure these will bring relief where it is needed and help to clear up some of the defects in the present system. This system was introduced by the inter-Party Government and if there are defects in it, those people cannot disclaim responsibility for it: they were responsible for its introduction and they are also responsible for any of the ills that may flow from it. We have always taken a stand on this question in relation to the housing of people in needy circumstances—although we do not agree with the present application of some parts of the scheme. The matter will be discussed with the city manager who is the appropriate person with whom to deal. Indeed, Deputy Moore has already been in touch with the manager about the defects we have seen in the system.

From the views expressed by some Members on the housing situation in Dublin one would think that no houses had been built in the past. The facts of the situation are these: At the moment Dublin Corporation have 54,000 dwellings; 15,000 SDA loans have been advanced in the past for the purchase of houses, of which 10,659 are current loans and in addition to this 8,765 repair grants were made available. This constitutes about 80,000 dwellings for which Government or local authority assistance has been given either for construction, purchase or repair. Taking an average of five persons per dwelling this means about 40,000 people have been housed by the local authority with assistance by way of loans or grants, representing about two-thirds of the people of our city. It is a very creditable effort that the local authority and Government policy have by loans, grants or construction made homes available for two out of every three people here and nobody can deny that this is not a very substantial contribution.

To give a little further detail to back up this development that has taken place, the corporation's debt on borrowed money at the end of March, 1969, was £80,067,000; of this 95.64 per cent, amounting to 19s 6d in every £, related to housing only, which meant there was only 6d left for other services. This shows the priority the Government and local authority have given to housing and the enormous contribution they have made in this regard. These figures cannot be denied. It is something the previous speakers have failed to mention. But the undisputed fact is that this matter has been in the forefront of the mind of the Minister for Local Government and the Dublin Corporation during the years.

In regard to the acquisition of land, the Minister has given Dublin Corporation £1 million each year for the last three years for this purpose. This shows the anxiety of the Minister to ensure that there are sites available to meet the future needs of the people of our city. The corporation have acquired much land in the past and are continuing to do so. I shall now give details of the position in relation to building construction in Dublin city at the moment, the types of development taking place, the amount of land acquired and the sites available. At 31st December, 1969, the latest figures available from the corporation give the following data:

Schemes in progress:

Waiting list programme, 1,878; in addition to this there is a house purchase and private sites programme, 1,188, which gives a total of 3,066 houses or flats under construction at the moment.

Schemes about to commence:

Waiting list, 48; flats, 6; purchase or private sites, 10; which is an additional 64.

Schemes in formulation for acquired sites:

Waiting list programme, 521; flats, 4,175, which gives a total of 4,696 dwellings.

In addition to this there is the house purchase and private sites programme of 2,182 houses which gives for schemes in formulation for acquired sites, 6,878.

Sites acquired or listed for acquisition:

Waiting list programme, 1,030 flats; 4,500 houses, which gives a total of 5,530.

For this programme 4,000 housing sites are planned which gives a complete total of 19,538 sites that are available for the development of the Dublin housing programme.

We are aware of the requirements and this gives us a complete indication of the future programming in addition to the facts I have given above.

To explain the situation in relation to this data I should like to deal in more detail with the house purchase and private sites programme on which the corporation have spent the sum of £1 million which the Minister has made available for sites acquisition in the past three years. In Finglas, Kimmage, the NDA section of Tallaght, Donaghmede and Kilbarrack east—two sites—there are 1,188 houses under construction. These are purchase type houses. We are well aware that package deals have been made available to Dublin Corporation by two groups, the McInerney and Gallagher groups, and these have been of substantial assistance in opening the way for tenants of Dublin Corporation to purchase houses built on a package deal basis.

I might mention that additional documents have been prepared and work is about to commence on a scheme in the lower Kimmage Road section where a small scheme is in operation. The fact that this demand exists for these purchase type houses is an indication of the ability of corporation tenants to pay for them and it is also an indication of the ability of the economy in that it is in a position to support by industry and otherwise the pay packets of those who wish to move out of schemes into purchase type houses.

This is very heartening because it is in addition to the corporation's own tenant purchase programme. We have schemes in formulation and it is important to know the areas in which the additional private purchase houses will be available. In the Kilbarrack and Rathfarnham area large sections of land have been acquired for building purposes. Sites are being developed and tenders and offers are being invited for the erection of additional houses at Kilbarrack east and Holylands, Rathfarnham. Documents are being prepared for a further 186 houses in Kilbarrack west and development works are in progress in Kilbarrack east for 36 houses; in Kilbarrack west for 124 houses; for an additional 271 houses in Rathfarnham and for 306 houses in Baldoyle as well as for an additional 82 houses in Tallaght.

There are layout plans for an additional 195 houses for Darndale; for an additional 150 houses in Ballymun Avenue and for an additional 100 at Ballymun Road.

In addition, layout plans are being prepared by consultants for an additional six houses at Darndale and 4,000 sites have been acquired by agreement in Kilbarrack north, Dunsink, Tallaght west, Palmerston and Baldoyle. This indicates the consideration that Dublin Corporation have been giving people who can afford to purchase their own homes. These figures give an indication in some detail of the various stages at which work is in progress on approximately 7,386 dwellings. The corporation's programme for waiting list cases— people who cannot afford to buy their own homes and who are depending on local authorities—is as follows:

In Coolock/Kilmore, 6 houses; Kilbarrack east, 288 houses; Kilbarrack east, section 3—200 houses; Queen Street and Blackhall Avenue, 36 flats; Dominick Street, 90 flats; Island Bridge, South Circular Road, 34 flats; Sarah Place, 24 flats; Emmet Road/Vincent Street, 288 flats; Poplar Row, 122 flats; Dorset Street, 50 flats; Clanbrassil-Vincent Street, 72 flats; Great Charles Street/Rutland Street, 48 flats; Tallaght east, NDA Section, 32 flats and 188 houses; Tallaght east, Section 2—60 flats and 212 houses; Coolock/ Kilmore, 18 flats.

This shows the rate of progress at which dwellings are being constructed and handed over to the corporation. In addition to all this, tenders have been offered and approved and contract documents are being prepared in relation to Chamber Street, Ennis Grove and Dublin Street, Baldoyle for additional houses and flats. Schemes in formulation for acquired sites in respect of which bills of quantity are being prepared are: Gardiner Lane/ Francis Street—24 flats; Spring Garden Street—56 flats; North Circular Road —24 flats and Kilbarrack west—248 houses.

Sites are being developed and offers are to be invited for the construction of a house and flats at O'Hanlon Road, Ballyfermot. Development works are in progress in Kilbarrack west for an additional 364 houses; for Holylands, Rathfarnham, for an additional 35 flats and 294 houses; in Howth, Section 4, for an additional 56 houses.

Layout plans have been approved for 12 houses at Dublin Street, Baldoyle; for 24 flats at Coolock Village; for 20 flats at Power Street and for 24 flats at Baldoyle Road. Layout plans for 692 houses are being prepared for Darndale.

These figures represent the concern of the corporation for the needs of the people and they show the extensive progress that has been made in relation to the development of both private and other sites.

Layout plans are being prepared for 36 flats at Convent View, Cabra; for 108 flats at Rutland Street, Lower; for 82 flats at Friary Avenue, Smithfield; for 70 flats at Fenian Street and for 40 houses at Coolock/Kilmore as well as for 60 houses at Rathfarnham; for eight houses at Lucan Road, Chapelizod; for 12 houses at North William Street; for Finglas south/Tolka Valley, 1,200 houses and for Darndale Balance, 1,200 houses.

One can readily understand the agitation of ex-members of Dublin Corporation and of Deputies of this city when they heard the figures quoted last night by Deputy Hogan and also when they heard some of the comments made by Deputy Treacy. Perhaps, Deputy Hogan would go back to the researcher who gave him the figures and ask him to look at the figures I have given which are the official figures of Dublin Corporation.

Dr. O'Donovan

Tell us about the years 1958-1964.

Mr. Dowling

I will deal with every year from 1960 to 1969 and then I shall deal with the 70s.

Mr. P.J. Burke

The Deputy should not go back to 1957 for fear of embarrassing Dr. O'Donovan.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Dowling. Deputies will get an opportunity of making their speeches.

Mr. Dowling

I am sorry for Deputy O'Donovan.

Mr. Treacy

According to Deputy Dowling, there is no problem.

Mr. P. Brennan

Deputy Dowling knows the mess in which the housing situation was in 1957.

Mr. Hogan

Do not mention the bag of cement.

Mr. P.J. Burke

Thanks for reminding me. There was not the price of a bag of cement.

Mr. Dowling

The development of the Kimmage, Crumlin, Finglas, Rathfarnham, Walkinstown, Bluebell, Cabra——

Mr. Treacy

Deal with the 6,000 on the waiting list at the moment.

Mr. Dowling

I shall come to that. We have a complete picture of the activities of Dublin Corporation. I am quite certain these 19,538 dwellings that will be erected on the sites available will meet some of the needs. This is a developing city in which there has been a population increase over the years. Let me quote from page 32 of the booklet. Housing in the Seventies:“Percentage increase in population in Dublin City and County from 1961 to 1966 was 10.68 per cent.” It is essential to bear that figure in mind in connection with housing. A question has been asked about the waiting list cases. The waiting list is less than 5,000 at the moment. One of the reasons for the extent of the waiting list cases is that in recent years there has been a more liberal definition of need in relation to housing than in the past. There is a higher priority given to the elderly than in the past. The husband, wife and child, where the family is unlikely to increase, have now been given consideration. This was not a factor in the past. There is also the factor of urban renewal, the demolition of such places as Keogh Square and Sarah Place. Neither the Government nor the local authority of Dublin City should compel people to remain in stables as they were living in Sarah Place. We know that an irresponsible group supported by irresponsible councillors of the Labour Party and the Fine Gael Party tried to prevent the corporation from demolishing unsuitable accommodation.

Mr. Treacy

What corporation?

Mr. Dowling

Dublin Corporation.

Mr. Treacy

That is defunct.

Mr. Dowling

Members of the Labour Party and the Fine Gael Party were members of the corporation at the time. It would be well worth the Deputy's while to have a look at the excellent development which members of his Party and the Fine Gael Party tried to impede. They tried to impede the demolition of stables which were used at one stage to accommodate the horses of officers of the British Army. We will not be intimidated by the Labour Party or the Fine Gael Party or any other group in the demolition of unsuitable houses. We were alleged to dispossess a number of families in Keogh Square and Sarah Place. Even though this increases the waiting list we will ensure that people will not remain in the hovels in which some of the Opposition parties would force them to remain. Another factor which increase the waiting list is road widening where people are dispossessed and the corporation must re-house them. There are other sections of this city which I hope will be demolished in the near future, for instance, Mount Pleasant Buildings and Hollyfield Buildings where the accommodation is of a lower standard than I or the members of my party would like it to be. If this demolition means that people will get priority on the housing list, we must face up to this and we offer no apology to anyone for giving a better standard of living and taking them out of insanitary and unsuitable accommodation.

Dr. O'Donovan

Would the Deputy tell us about the people who have no accommodation at all?

Mr. Dowling

I have given the House the corporation plan. Two out of every three persons in this city have been housed as a result of Government assistance by way of loan or grant for building or reconstruction. I can give the Deputy more facts to chew on.

Dr. O'Donovan

Has he more plans?

Mr. Dowling

This is factual development that is in progress at the moment.

Mr. Treacy

Facts are no good to the 10,000 homeless families in this city. They cannot live on facts.

Mr. Dowling

It is hard to understand Deputy Treacy. I take it I do not have to read these figures again. I referred to the purchase and private house site programme. Work is in various stages of development on a total of 7,308 dwellings. These houses will be taken over by young couples.

Mr. Treacy

If they can afford it.

Mr. Dowling

Young couples will be able to purchase their own homes. If they are unable to purchase their own homes then there is a responsibility on the local authority to provide houses for them. All any Deputy has to do is to visit the centres where building is in progress and he will see for himself that the situation is in competent hands. The American Under-Secretary of State for Housing and Urban Development, who was here last June, has said:

The American delegation were impressed by the extent of the Irish Government's contribution to housing and planning. Proportionately this contribution is considerably greater than similar contributions in the United States. Recent progress in expanding the volume of housing and progress in the development of planning was especially notable.

This is not a member of the Labour Party or the Fine Gael Party but an independent observer who came and examined in detail, who was concerned about the facts of the situation and commented in this particular manner. It is heartening to see a neutral observer, who examined the situation in depth, go away with the view that the Irish Government's contribution to housing and planning was proportionately greater than that of the United States Government. While the figures for the number of houses built per thousand of the population indicate that we are 1.8 lower in comparison with other countries one must take into consideration that the size of the accommodation built in this country is far larger than that built elsewhere, because we have to cater for bigger families. If one were to take the size of the accommodation built elsewhere and compare it with the accommodation built here one would get a very different figure. It is impossible to relate the size of houses built here with the size of houses built in countries where the pill is common and where small families are the order of the day.

The White Paper, Housing in the Seventies, quotes at page 52, paragraph (1) of the Annual Bulletin of Housing and Building Statistics for Europe, United Nations, as follows:

In Ireland the housing stock is comparatively old. Ireland has, however, a system of State aids for the reconstruction of old houses in existence for longer than similar systems elsewhere. With these aids, about 173,000 houses or 24 per cent of the housing stock, were substantially reconstructed between 1933 and 31st March, 1969, and 54,000 improved by the addition of piped water and/or sewerage.

The fact that these aids have been in existence for a greater number of years here than in other countries has meant that we have maintained our housing stock to a greater degree than other countries and this fact must be taken into consideration when assessing the overall position.

The introduction of the corporation tenant purchase scheme was opposed by members of the Labour Party and impeded by them. I will say this for the Fine Gael Party: they agreed tenants should become owners if they wished to. The Labour Party were aware of what happened in other countries where workers, who had normally supported the Labour Party there, no longer supported the party when they became house-owners. This fact was uppermost in the Labour Party's mind and for that callous reason they deprived many corporation tenants of obtaining houses at a more reasonable price than they eventually had to pay when the scheme was finally put into operation. If there are any defects in the system of housing in Dublin, it should be pointed out that it was a member of the Labour Party who was chairman of Dublin Corporation housing committee for a number of years and a member of the Fine Gael Party was chairman on another occasion. The Fianna Fáil members and the Minister for Local Government at all times endeavoured to speed progress.

(Interruptions.)

Dr. O'Donovan

Plenty of money was put into housing in the fifties.

Mr. Hogan

Houses were built——

Dr. O'Donovan

By the thousand.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Dowling.

Mr. Dowling

The Government want to ensure that as many people as possible are able to own their own houses and we will continue to make available accommodation within the reach of the tenants. The number of tenants who have indicated an interest to purchase is almost 9,000. A substantial number of these are already purchasing their own homes at the rate of 7½ per cent. But for the delaying tactics of the Labour Party, already referred to, the rate would have been much lower, the people would have had to make lower repayments and they would be much happier than they are today. These people would not qualify for loans to purchase houses on the open market but because of the scheme made available by the Minister for Local Government—and great credit is due to him—they are being given an opportunity of owning their own homes. It is the policy of the Government to ensure that money will be made available so that as many people as possible wishing to purchase their own homes will be able to do so. There are, however, one or two defects in the scheme which I shall deal with later.

The private tenant purchase scheme, in addition to the corporation scheme, has also provided houses over the years. In Coolock and Kilmore 288 tenants are settling down in houses purchased through the tenant purchase scheme as distinct from the corporation scheme. In Baldoyle Road there are 18; Milltown 14; Coolock 54; Donaghmede 732; Tallaght 242; Finglas 44; Kilbarrack 14, and there are several other schemes in progress. These figures show clearly the determination of the Government to ensure that people have an opportunity to own their own homes.

In addition, over the years the corporation have made available sites to individuals and organisations and this matter is commented on by the Minister in his speech. These were sites that were made available as distinct from houses. In Larkhill 169, Cabra 93, Crumlin 231, Sutton 33, Walkinstown 65, Milltown 30, Ballyfermot 5, Finglas 108, St. Anne's 104, Donnybrook 34, Donnycarney 14, Rathfarnham 48, Terenure 213, Coolock/Raheny 127, Beaumont Road 8 and St. Canice's Building Society 64. These were sites in addition to all I have said in relation to development, sites for individuals and organisations to come together and develop homes for themselves.

One can see at a glance the substantial progress that has been made and the comprehensive programme that is under way at the moment. I am quite sure that whatever population increases there will be are being taken into consideration in the development of the housing programme. To get back to Deputy O'Donovan's point, a really important point, about what we did in the sixties, the position was that in the sixties the then Minister for Local Government, Deputy Blaney, urged the corporation to develop more accommodation for the people on the waiting list.

Due to the fact that there was full employment in the building industry, as there is today, it was impossible to produce houses without workers so the Minister sent a number of members of Dublin Corporation and members of his own Department to the continent to examine system building in which the labour content would be on a very different basis from that of traditional building. As a result, in addition to the corporation housing programme, after the acceptance of system building by the members of Dublin Corporation in agreement with the trade union organisations, the Minister decided to embark on the great scheme that has been developed at Ballymun. The development of Ballymun, which now houses 10,000 persons, was a result of ministerial effort. While all aspects of Ballymun are not perfect—I do not agree possibly with the 15-storey blocks—nevertheless 10,000 persons are now housed in Ballymun, that is, 3,000 families.

At that time the Minister was not satisfied with the speed at which Dublin Corporation were proceeding. At that time, of course, there was a Labour chairman of the housing committee. The Minister had to force this scheme through. This was in the sixties. The Minister said: "You are not going fast enough." He got the land, made the money available and now we have the Ballymun development. So there is no answer. I am quite sure that Deputy O'Donovan agrees that a substantial effort was made.

Dr. O'Donovan

The Deputy has the Labour Party on the brain. That is his difficulty.

Mr. Dowling

The Deputy questioned the availability of money and the developments in the sixties.

Dr. O'Donovan

From 1958 to 1964.

Mr. Dowling

The facts speak for themselves. I do not want to go back to the——

Dr. O'Donovan

You were hamstrung.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Dowling.

Mr. Dowling

Thank you. They were upsetting me.

Dr. O'Donovan

I do not think so.

Mr. L'Estrange

The Deputy is like a stone wall.

Mr. Dowling

We now have a clear picture of the situation in Dublin city.

Mr. L'Estrange

It is as clear as mud.

Mr. Dowling

There are 54,000 dwellings in the hands of the corporation. The numbers which were reconstructed or which were State-assisted with Government or local authority money represent the housing of two out of every three people, together with the extensive programme at various stages of development which I have already outlined.

There is no need to go further. I have already told the House how dissatisfied the Minister was. He had to take the housing problem out of the hands of the corporation, at a time when there was a Labour chairman of the housing committee, and say: "I will ensure that further houses will be available or further dwellings or units of accommodation" and so we have Ballymun at a cost of somewhere in the region of £10 million. This must indicate the desire and the anxiety of the Minister and the party to ensure that our people are housed at the earliest possible moment.

We have heard in the Dáil and elsewhere utterings in relation to the housing development from the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party, but particularly the Labour Party. I have here the Order Paper for 25th November, 1969. That was not so long ago. The Labour Party were not aware of the developments which were taking place. They were not aware of the amount of land that had been procured by Dublin Corporation. They were not aware of the developments in relation to purchase houses and tenancy houses. They had a motion on the Order Paper. It is very important at this stage for the workers of Ballyfermot, Drimnagh and elsewhere, the building workers in particular, to take note of the mentality of the Labour Party.

This motion related to the housing of our people. It started off with the usual boloney:

That in view of the present housing crisis where thousands of families cannot anticipate being housed for many years, Dáil Éireann calls on the Government to declare a national housing emergency with the objective of directing the necessary men——

The direction of labour. This, of course, is foreign to us. The direction of labour is common in Eastern European countries where labour is directed to various sectors, to Siberia, or away out of the cities. This is direction of labour. What about the right of the worker to decide for himself where he will work? The direction "of the necessary men, money and materials to the building of houses" means, in fact, that no longer will a man be free to decide where he will work. The building workers can be transported in trucks or trains to wherever the Labour Party might decide if they were in power.

Dr. O'Donovan

Or put in Mountjoy.

Mr. Dowling

Or wagons. Wagons were a feature in the early thirties.

Dr. O'Donovan

Or put the farmers and workers in Mountjoy.

Mr. Dowling

The workers of this city will want to bear in mind this direction of labour because, if they would direct building workers where to work, they would also direct other people where to work. I have no doubt that, too, would be a plank in the programme of the eastern bloc of the Labour Party. I am very perturbed about this resolution——

Dr. O'Donovan

The Deputy looks it.

Mr. Dowling

——and the thinking behind it. At one stage we had men in the Labour Party like Deputy Pattison and Deputy Murphy and a few others who certainly had not this line of thought in relation to the workers. I hope that, at some stage in the future, the Deputies who agree with the transportation of workers to whereever the Labour Party may decide, will be repudiated by clear thinking personnel, if they still exist and have not already been contaminated by the so-called intellectual left-wing group of the Labour Party. This certainly is something that must be impressed on the workers in this city in the coming days, that they will want to decide carefully whether they want a party which will direct them to where they may or may not go. Mark you, this was signed by all the members of the Labour Party.

Dr. O'Donovan

Transport them in and out of Mountjoy.

Mr. Boland

And Mexico.

Dr. O'Donovan

Free transport both ways.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Dowling

I can well visualise the transportation of large numbers of Dublin housing workers to some camp where the Labour Party want to extend accommodation. As all members of the Labour Party have been identified with this it would appear that there is no hope for the workers if the Labour Party get a grip. It is important that this document should be kept and explained to the people in the coming weeks. Deputy John O'Donovan's name is the last name on the list and, perhaps, he had second thoughts about putting it on but, nevertheless, he is party to this direction of labour.

I have dealt in some detail with the housing programme and I am very glad that the Minister has returned as there are a few other points I wish to make. Deputy Treacy said there was nothing in the brief to indicate future policy but in the Minister's brief we read of "measures designed to meet the objective of securing the higher rate of output needed within the limit of the available resources". The first one refers to the re-casting of the private housing grant system so as to encourage the building of more smaller type houses. This is essential in order to ensure that the smaller type house is made available for the worker so that he can afford to purchase his home. This would be in addition to the normal local authority programme but private builders who would be developing sites would also be encouraged to build smaller type houses. Some builders are doing this and I am sure that with the measures which the Minister is taking further contractors will change their methods to meet housing requirements.

The Minister has applied the brake in relation to grants for the bigger-type houses in which most members of the Labour Party live. However, the Dublin worker is concerned with the £3,000 or £3,500 house which is his limit and every effort should be made to provide this type of house. The Minister must be applauded for applying this brake. This is explained in some detail in the Minister's speech. Deputy Treacy must have had the wrong brief because he seemed to be completely off the beam. The Minister referred to the "payment of a new subsidy to the local authorities providing houses, in association with the National Building Agency, for key workers coming into an area for new or expanding industries". If industries examine the situation and are prepared to build houses for their workers this should relieve pressure on the local authorities and reduce their waiting lists. Industrial expansion was one of the factors I mentioned in relation to an increased demand for local authority houses. If key workers are in an area in which there is a lack of accommodation and if the industries do not make this accommodation available then the workers come on to the local authority housing list. With the development of this progressive thinking I am sure there will be a greater realisation by the industrialists of their responsibilities and they can go some way towards relieving the housing lists of local authorities.

The Minister also referred to "a review of the tax arrangements for building societies to ensure that advances by the societies are confined largely to the construction of small- or medium-sized houses". This, again, is progressive thinking; the Minister is concerned with the small man and with the production of homes at reasonable prices. The first three items on this page of the Minister's speech clearly indicate the type of thinking in the Department at the moment. The emphasis is on the production of the smaller- and medium-type house which is within the reach of the worker. I hope that when the tax arrangements are reviewed the Minister will ensure that the societies will make money available on the scales he suggests.

The next reference is to "the organisation of the demand for houses, by the encouragement of co-operative groups and by the utilisation on a wider scale of the services of the National Building Agency." As I explained earlier, Dublin Corporation have made sites available to groups like the St. Canice's Building Society and other organisations and groups for the purpose of building their own homes. Now, in conjunction with the NBA, organisations like St. Canice's Building Society and other groups should be able to come together and utilise many of the sites which local authorities now have and which probably will be handed over to them for the development of houses on the scale and in the manner in which the Minister suggests. In regard to "steps to ensure the provision of adequate serviced land for housing," the Minister has provided £1 million per year over the last three years for the acquisition of land and the servicing of the land is in progress and schemes are in the process of being developed. This will make further land available in this city and elsewhere. "Encouragement of more standardisation and dimensional co-ordination in the building industry" is exceptionally important. We believe that from the point of view of the local authorities, where you have different types of houses, the components should at least be of a standard type. Any standardisation would give some relief to local authorities and the building industry. At local authority level, particularly in Dublin where you have a variety of houses, with different sized windows and doors, it is quite a problem at times keeping the houses serviced and repaired. Any standardisation of components would assist local authorities in this respect and I would suggest to the Minister that he should investigate this aspect of housing with a view to introducing some uniform system.

Deputy Treacy said there was nothing in the Minister's speech which would give any hope for the future. I am only at page 6 now and there are still 61 pages left. This indicates the careful, comprehensive consideration the Minister has given to all aspects of the housing problem. The Minister's efforts are worthy of commendation, as were the efforts of his predecessors who also made substantial progress in the housing programme.

Some of us feel that there may be some laxity creeping into Dublin Corporation from the point of view of the speed at which the programme should be completed and I would suggest that the Minister should examine the possibility of a similar scheme to that in Ballymun on the south side of the city, in addition to the corporation's normal housing programme to alleviate the situation which has arisen by reason of an expansion in the population following on the development of industries. Greater consideration for the elderly, plus some other factors, has helped to swell the waiting list to its present proportions and serious consideration should, therefore, be given to another large scheme, something on the style of St. Michael's estate. This has been a very creditable achievement from the point of view of housing. The tenants are completely satisfied. I was told by a representative from one of the London authorities that the flats there are far superior to any flats they have built in the Greater London area. That is a great tribute. A number of these representatives who have come to examine our housing schemes were very impressed with this structure, its location and development. I would ask the Minister to see if anything more could be done on these lines.

There are elderly people occupying corporation houses. The houses are not fully utilised and many of these would be satisfied with less accommodation, provided that accommodation were sited in the area in which they are living. If a survey were made I am sure that the Minister would find quite a number of people prepared to give up corporation houses which are not fully utilised in exchange for more suitable accommodation at a lower rent or, in the case of old age pensioners, perhaps, at no rent at all. The houses vacated by them would go some distance towards helping to solve the present problem. There are a number of people in Ballymun, as there are in Crumlin and elsewhere, who would be glad to exchange their present accommodation for accommodation more suitable to their immediate needs, provided that accommodation had all the services and facilities they would require. There are 54,000 dwellings in the hands of Dublin Corporation. A substantial number of those dwellings are not fully utilised. The type of development at Botanic Avenue and Jamestown Close in Inchicore is very desirable. The people in these areas are fully satisfied both with the design of the accommodation and the facilities provided. Further consideration should be given to more development on those lines.

With regard to overcrowding, the Act of 1966 provides that overcrowding occurs when the free air space in any room used as a sleeping apartment is less than 400 cubic feet per person. We have a situation in Dublin at the moment in which a family occupying two rooms can actually be housed before a family occupying only one room. A family may live, eat and sleep in one room; a tenant overhead on the next landing may have a similar room plus a smaller room for sleeping accommodation. It is the sleeping accommodation which is taken into consideration and the family with the larger floor space is actually housed before the family with the smaller floor space. This is ridiculous. These are the things which should be rectified.

Dublin Corporation are housing people on the basis of the Housing Act, 1966. The definition of overcrowding is one which gives a completely false picture to the housing authorities. The sleeping accommodation is the only factor. If a person eats and sleeps in the one room that room is measured as the sleeping apartment but if that person has a small room off it is taken into consideration and in many cases, especially in houses let out in flats, there may be a large room and a small room on one landing and probably a large room and a small room on the next landing. The person who is lucky enough to get two rooms will be housed before the person in one room. I would ask the Minister to have a serious look at this situation.

People have been deprived of accommodation because of the interpretation of this section of the Housing Act. It would be more realistic if many other factors were taken into consideration in relation to family circumstances. Bedroom deficiency, shared accommodation, lack of facilities, such as piped water supply, waste disposal, cooking, bath and hot water supply, lack of natural light, the question of broken families, the question of general health and other factors are not taken into consideration. It is purely the cubic capacity of the room.

Those I have mentioned are real factors in relation to people living in flats or tenements. Natural lighting, whether it comes from one window on a landing or through a skylight over a door is not taken into consideration. This section of the Act will have to be replaced by one providing for consideration of all these factors. Lack of facilities must be an important factor as would be the question of water supply in a room as distinct from water supply in a yard where 20 to 30 people use the same means of waste disposal and the same water supply. Some people have to cook on the landing as they have no facilities in the room. Many have no bath and some have no hot water supply. They may have a gas stove and an open grate. None of these factors is taken into consideration.

The question of broken families, where families are divided, is a very real problem. A factor in connection with broken families is that it is not the broken family itself which is the problem but the distance between husband and wife, whether or not they live in the same street or 50 or 100 miles apart. Those are things which are not taken into consideration in the assessment of priorities for housing accommodation but which should be and must be considered.

This matter has been raised on a number of occasions and I would ask the Minister to give very serious and comprehensive consideration to it. It does not seem to me to be very involved but rigid interpretation by the Dublin City Medical Officer means that people are deprived of accommodation who should be entitled to it. I would ask the Minister to have a look at section 63 of the Housing Act, 1966. The reference in subparagraph (a) to persons of 10 years of age or more of opposite sexes is valid but subparagraph (b) must be amended fairly rapidly because the longer it is retained in its present form the greater the hardship placed on the very considerable number on the waiting list.

The Minister should make an immediate effort to have some amendment made which will bring the Act into realistic focus for local authorities. There is no flexibility in it. It must be interpreted rigidly or otherwise there are difficulties for the housing authorities in regard to priorities. Almost the entire number of people on the waiting list, which is in excess of 4,000, are classified in accordance with this section which is doing great injustice to a considerable group of that number. There are 4,000 people affected at the moment in this city and if there is the same rigid interpretation of the definition of overcrowding throughout the country then there are very many more people affected.

I would ask the Minister to take into consideration some of the factors I mentioned, the question of shared accommodation, whether they have a living room, a kitchen and a bedroom, whether they have separate facilities, whether they have the facilities inside or outside, whether they share facilities in common with other people or not. The question of broken families is also very important. Social workers will tell you that this is probably the most important factor in housing people, that some additional consideration based on mileage between the husband and wife would be given. Once they become separated, if the distance is great the chances of a broken marriage are very real and this is a matter the local authorities should consider. It certainly would be appreciated if some provision in this regard were made in any new Bill which is brought in. When families can get accommodation together they remain as a unit but once they become separated the chance of their coming together is in some cases very remote because of the tension caused by not having their own accommodation and probably having no hope of getting it.

Something when a husband applies for accommodation in Dublin city, whose wife was born in Dublin and the husband sends her down the country, the husband's residential qualification is then a factor and it can probably take up to four years to get accommodation. As I said, the facilities for waste disposal, bath, hot water and natural light are also factors which should be taken into consideration by local authorities and other people in their assessment of priorities for housing accommodation.

I have here details of a scheme operated by the City of Birmingham where all those factors are taken into consideration. It is probably the most effective of the schemes we have seen and examined in relation to the allocation system. Before Dublin Corporation abolished themselves we examined a number of schemes in detail in regard to letting priorities and I think Birmingham was far more effective than any of the other schemes we saw in operation in other cities, even Belfast.

In relation to the high rise flats I once again want to say to the Minister that I completely disagree with the 15-storey buildings erected in Ballymun. Until such time as high rise buildings of this nature become acceptable to our people, we should forget about them. If they are acceptable, the scheme will develop in harmony and there will not be the same number of grievances. We will have to take this on a gradual basis. We may eventually have to reach this height and probably go much higher. Nevertheless, we are not attuned to this and our people do not think in terms of high rise accommodation. I would ask that this be done by a gradual process over a period of years. We could proceed from eight-storey accommodation to nine- or ten-storey accommodation. Most people are opposed to 15-storey accommodation. The eight-storey accommodation which has been developed at St. Michael's Close is completely acceptable to the occupants.

I would like to associate myself with the Minister's remarks regarding the assistance provided by the religious orders and others to the elderly people in the housing estates. There are many old people in these estates. I have a deep interest in the meals-on-wheels service. I myself deliver meals to elderly people and I know these organisations are providing a great service to the local community. We should encourage local organisations to assist even further people who are unable to help themselves. There is much still to be done. An excellent service is provided in the Crumlin and Ballyfermot areas. The Mary Aikenhead Social Service and the Little Sisters of the Assumption in Ballyfermot provide a service second to none for the older people. I would support any assistance which the Government can give to these organisations.

Voluntary organisations do not always get the credit they deserve for the wonderful work they do. The members do not seek publicity for themselves, but work day and night to assist sick and needy people in every possible way. It is sad that there are so many people in our community who have no relatives of their own. A roll of elderly people should be compiled to ensure that State assistance would reach such needy individuals. Such a roll would be of great help also to the voluntary associations in their wonderful work.

In his brief, the Minister dealt with housing in the Seventies. The Minister indicated that there will be a Bill which will give an increase of £50 in the State grant and also provide that local authorities may pay £50 to persons eligible for supplementary grants. This £100 can then go to offset the substantial deposit now required by the builders and bring it within the reach of people of modest means. The Minister is to be congratulated on his forward social thinking and for his complete examination of the problem in relation to people of modest means. The Minister emphasised his desire to rectify the imbalance which has taken place throughout the housing construction programme where grants were made available to people for houses in excess of £6,000 and the owners got remission of rates. If a person can afford to pay £6,000 or £8,000 for a house he does not need the concession which was given in the past.

The National Building Agency is doing wonderful work. In Tallaght one can get an indication of the type of development and progress the agency have made over the years. The agency deserve support and praise for the magnificent effort they have made. They have done great work here in Dublin, particularly with this development in Tallaght. Any Member of the House wishing to know how the NBA works should visit their development at Tallaght. Any doubt he may have had about the NBA will be diminished when he sees the wonderful work done. The NBA are worthy of support to ensure their further advancement and development.

In The Minister's speech there is an item relating to a gas explosion at Ronan Point, London. There was a small gas explosion in one of our flats here. Fortunately very little damage was done. Some of our people are concerned about this matter and would welcome an immediate statement assuring them of their safety. People need reassurance that there will not be a recurrence of what happened at Ronan Point. It is important that defects should be rectified. The Minister and his technical advisers have been examining this matter in depth. I would ask for an early statement in relation to the possibility of any explosion or any type of accident occurring in our flats. Such a statement should assure the people of their complete safety. If there are defects in the structures they should be eliminated at the earliest possible moment. The corporation have assured me that there is no likelihood of any type of disaster, such as occurred elsewhere, occurring in our flats. Any defects found are being examined and analysed with a view to their elimination. An authoritative statement should come from the Minister or the corporation in relation to any incident, such as an explosion, which may have occurred, whether the cause was deliberate or otherwise.

Mr. Clinton

It will take a long time to get to page 67.

Mr. Dowling

It is a long brief and every page of it is worthy of careful consideration. I want to deal now with the south city sewer. As regards the tunnel project, it is difficult for former members of Dublin Corporation to understand the advice now given. At one stage we were assured that this was not a practical proposition and that no alternative was available. In order to ensure that large areas of land would be available at the earliest possible moment, many of us decided to support the temporary closure of the Grand Canal. Now, the technical advice the Minister has got must be far superior to that utilised by local authorities. It seems to me a large amount of money was spent by local authorities in assessing the situation resulting in information which proved to be completely erroneous being given to members of Dublin City Council at that time.

This clearly shows the necessity of analysing in depth any suggestions made in relation to technical development. When consultants are brought in they are able to come up with a scheme which, although more costly, is practical and one with which we can all agree. I hope it does not impede progress for any length of time and that every effort will be made to get the scheme under way as soon as possible to ensure that the people in Ballyfermot and the surrounding area will have adequate drainage to enable further housing development in the perimeter areas as well as more suitable and flexible industries with a higher employment content than those already established there.

Over a number of years, due to the defective drainage provisions, a type of industry which did not normally give a high labour content was set up there. This was because industry had to be considered in relation to waste disposal problems, especially when acids or other such effluents requiring large-scale flushing were involved. Obviously, therefore, certain industries could not be sited in the Ballyfermot area. While we have a number of existing industries there, with the advent of a better drainage system we can have more effective industrial development in the future. The demand in the area is great. At the Bluebell industrial site some 15 or 16 industries have been established on corporation land and this gives some indication of the need, taken in conjunction with the John F. Kennedy Industrial Estate and the estates at Walkinstown and at Ballyfermot. Because of the high density of population at present and the increasing number that will be available for employment in the future it is highly desirable that every effort be made to ensure the south city drainage scheme will get under way as soon as possible. The Minister is and has been anxious all along about this project. Before the corporation was abolished he had been prodding them about it to ensure the scheme would be expedited, because the Minister himself is aware of the lack of sewerage facilities at Ballyfermot and Bluebell. As a result, the people in Bluebell and portions of Ballyfermot suffer, and if the Minister can do anything further to hasten development it would be much appreciated.

Mr. Clinton

Keep an eye on the clock.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

Is the Deputy going to talk it out?

Mr. Dowling

The Deputy must be watching the clock himself.

Mr. Boland

Deputy Dowling is making the shortest speech so far.

Mr. Clinton

The example was not good at the beginning.

Mr. Dowling

The matter of atmospheric pollution and water pollution is very important and great concern has been expressed by all parties about it. It is becoming a fashionable subject everywhere. In Dublin we have a river that is and has been polluted for a long time. It runs through the area I represent and also through areas in County Dublin I do not represent. Where industrial pollution occurs every effort should be made to ensure that industrialists make the necessary provision to avoid pollution, particularly when they are discharging material into a river such as the Camac to which I am referring. The Camac has become an open sewer which is rat-infested. The paper mills and other factories which discharge waste into this river should have another look at the pollution problem because people living on the banks of the Camac are suffering. If Dublin Corporation have no intention of culverting the Camac, something must be done to eliminate the objectionable odours coming from the river at times. No map is needed to find this river in summer; it is only necessary to have a sense of smell if one is within a mile or two of it.

Local authorities may be called on from time to time to enforce regulations in regard to pollution, but they should first put their own house in order and shoulder their own responsibilities before they begin preaching to others. In this city "black death" is being pumped out of the buses almost daily. This pollution problem is becoming so great that at least some effort should be made by CIE to ensure that they do not poison the citizens of this city. If you travel in a bus you do not notice the pollution, but if you walk or drive a car and leave the window open you are smothered in the objectionable gases emitted by some of the city buses. Many trucks direct their exhaust gases upwards but CIE point them towards the pedestrians—whether to get them into buses or not I do not know. At least they should have some system to direct the gases into the atmosphere rather than into the faces of citizens. Any effort the Minister can make to ensure that the emission of deadly gases from transport units in the city is investigated as soon as possible will be supported. The main objection in Dublin city is to the emission of fumes from the CIE buses.

As I mentioned earlier on another Estimate, I found cases of buses being parked outside houses of people in housing estates. On many occasions these people had to move from the front rooms to the back rooms because, when the buses were starting off, they emitted a large blast of this objectionable gas which was forced into the homes of these people. While on occasion CIE responded to pressure, because of sickness or doctors' certificates, it only meant that they would move the buses to another man's house five or ten yards away. If that man were a timid person he had to put up with this pollution. I am referring to the Drimnagh area and to the many complaints I have received and have passed on to CIE. CIE consider them all right and then move the bus to another man's door. That is not the solution. They must find some device which will limit the amount of pollution. They are to a large degree responsible for the objectionable and deadly gas that is in the air and the Minister should ensure that they fit some device which will limit this.

While on transport, I want to refer to the size of vehicle in use on the roads. There should be some limitation on the size of vehicles. Our roads are not capable of taking some of them and if they must be used they should only be used at times when the roadways are free. We see long trucks moving along country roads at night with a variety of white lights which give a completely erroneous impression to the drivers of cars. They have one small red light at the back and a line of white lights along the side. They can be 40, 50 or 60 feet long. Serious accidents will take place, if they have not already taken place, as a result of the type of lighting on these vehicles. They are not suitable for our roads and should be diverted to roads that are capable of taking them. The Minister should make some regulation to limit the size of vehicles or we will be in serious difficulty in a few years time. On smaller roads one can see a line of traffic three or four miles long behind one truck. There have been many complaints from road users about this and unless some limitation is put on this we will be in serious trouble. I would ask the Minister to look at this as a matter of urgency.

In relation to driver testing it is often difficult to understand the high rate of failure. I have known very competent people, who have been driving for a considerable period and whose licences have lapsed, to fail the test. I feel that some of the driver testers try to justify their existence by the number of failures they have. This is very undesirable. There should be something between the learner and the full plate. In other countries they have a system whereby one can graduate from learner-driver, after passing a certain prescribed test, to something less than the full licence. It is only by practical experience that one can become competent. There should be something in between so that one could get a licence to permit him to drive alone. I do feel there are far too many failures and failures just for the sake of instructors justifying their existence. This is very wrong and an injustice to many people. Many people have failed who were depending on a licence for employment. A person can go back again and probably pass the next time while the first fellow feels he has justified his existence. I would ask the Minister to look at the whole question of driver-testing and the question of introducing something between the learner stage and the full licence. This might decrease the number of failures and it would mean that people who are seeking tests would have them provided at an earlier date.

I am glad to note that the swimming pool in the Willie Pearse Memorial Park in Crumlin is nearing completion. This is of very special interest to me because on one occasion, last May twelve months, I was the only member of the corporation who supported this site for pool development. It took a change of council to bring about an assessment of the value of a pool in the Crumlin area and to get sanction. For the very reason that I was alone on that occasion I am glad to see it nearing completion. This is a heated pool which is 82½ feet long by 30 feet wide with a depth of water from three to six feet and with changing rooms and storage space. It is certainly a desirable amenity for that area.

I should like to know if the Minister has any information in regard to swimming pool development in the Ballyfermot area. In December, 1969, I received a letter from the development department of the corporation. It read:

In reply to your letter of 21st instant I wish to inform you that negotiations are proceeding with Arndale Developments (Ireland) Limited for the provision of a Shopping Centre at Ballyfermot Road. It is the Corporation's intention to provide a public swimming pool as part of this development.

This pool has been promised for a long time. The corporation are in agreement. I should like the Minister to give us some information about the reason for the hold-up of this development.

When I was a member of the corporation I was assured there was no question of money, that the development would go ahead. Whether the delay has been the result of a change of attitude in the corporation or the developers I do not know, but if the developers insist on backing out of the responsibilities we should have second thoughts about them or about other developers of that nature. I understand the pool should have been laid down two years ago but we are no more advanced now than when we were members of the council. I will be glad of any information the Minister can give me on this matter.

In relation to planning applications and appeals, it appears to me the local authorities are taking the easy way out by rejecting applications on the slightest pretext, and making it necessary to have them resubmitted to the Department. The Minister has asked local authorities to be more liberal in this respect and in the matter of giving advice and so forth to applicants. I am afraid, however, that officers of planning authorities feel that this is an additional responsibility on them and they take the easy way out by sending the appeal to the Minister. Applications are turned down for flimsy reasons. It should be an easy matter for the authority officer to say: "This is the way you should have done it. Rectify it and resubmit it." That would mean that the matter should be dealt with in a period of two months instead of the six months it takes to get an appeal through to the Minister. The expense and hardship to the applicant would be eliminated as well.

Applications in respect of major projects like hotels or petrol filling stations should, however, be dealt with on a different basis. However, here, again, applicants could be advised on the spot as to how plans could be rectified. This would eliminate many delays and unnecessary trouble. At the moment people are inclined to erect unauthorised structures and to apply later for retention of these structures. Very often this is a more sensible approach and it very often succeeds.

Mr. Clinton

Has the Deputy any figure of the percentage of such applications sent to the Department?

Mr. Dowling

I will deal with it on Tuesday next.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

On which page of his brief is he?

Mr. Tully

There are two other items which the Minister is anxious we should discuss on Tuesday.

Mr. Boland

I was looking for the co-operation of the House.

Mr. Dowling

I will give way to the Minister at any time. I shall turn to another matter. I have written to the Department and I have been in touch with Associated Properties Ltd., with the city manager and with the various sections of Dublin Corporation in regard to a traffic hazard in the housing estate in the Upper Drimnagh area. The roadways there which were developed years ago are not capable of taking large scale traffic. Recently we had a situation where an ambulance was unable to pass to a house to take a man from his bed and the patient had to be taken a considerable distance on a stretcher. The same thing could happen in respect of the fire brigade.

The reason is that Associated Properties will not allow householders to park their cars in their front gardens. They have to be parked in the roadway with consequential grave danger to life and property. At the moment there could be a disaster in that area because the fire brigade could not get through. There is not much a public representative can do except to ask the Minister to have a look at this to see if he can arrange to get Associated Properties and other such bodies to allow householders the same right as tenants of local authorities to park their cars in their front gardens. I can well understand the corporation doing silly things but I cannot understand the attitude of a responsible group like Associated Properties who by their action here are endangering life and property.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.