I can well visualise the transportation of large numbers of Dublin housing workers to some camp where the Labour Party want to extend accommodation. As all members of the Labour Party have been identified with this it would appear that there is no hope for the workers if the Labour Party get a grip. It is important that this document should be kept and explained to the people in the coming weeks. Deputy John O'Donovan's name is the last name on the list and, perhaps, he had second thoughts about putting it on but, nevertheless, he is party to this direction of labour.
I have dealt in some detail with the housing programme and I am very glad that the Minister has returned as there are a few other points I wish to make. Deputy Treacy said there was nothing in the brief to indicate future policy but in the Minister's brief we read of "measures designed to meet the objective of securing the higher rate of output needed within the limit of the available resources". The first one refers to the re-casting of the private housing grant system so as to encourage the building of more smaller type houses. This is essential in order to ensure that the smaller type house is made available for the worker so that he can afford to purchase his home. This would be in addition to the normal local authority programme but private builders who would be developing sites would also be encouraged to build smaller type houses. Some builders are doing this and I am sure that with the measures which the Minister is taking further contractors will change their methods to meet housing requirements.
The Minister has applied the brake in relation to grants for the bigger-type houses in which most members of the Labour Party live. However, the Dublin worker is concerned with the £3,000 or £3,500 house which is his limit and every effort should be made to provide this type of house. The Minister must be applauded for applying this brake. This is explained in some detail in the Minister's speech. Deputy Treacy must have had the wrong brief because he seemed to be completely off the beam. The Minister referred to the "payment of a new subsidy to the local authorities providing houses, in association with the National Building Agency, for key workers coming into an area for new or expanding industries". If industries examine the situation and are prepared to build houses for their workers this should relieve pressure on the local authorities and reduce their waiting lists. Industrial expansion was one of the factors I mentioned in relation to an increased demand for local authority houses. If key workers are in an area in which there is a lack of accommodation and if the industries do not make this accommodation available then the workers come on to the local authority housing list. With the development of this progressive thinking I am sure there will be a greater realisation by the industrialists of their responsibilities and they can go some way towards relieving the housing lists of local authorities.
The Minister also referred to "a review of the tax arrangements for building societies to ensure that advances by the societies are confined largely to the construction of small- or medium-sized houses". This, again, is progressive thinking; the Minister is concerned with the small man and with the production of homes at reasonable prices. The first three items on this page of the Minister's speech clearly indicate the type of thinking in the Department at the moment. The emphasis is on the production of the smaller- and medium-type house which is within the reach of the worker. I hope that when the tax arrangements are reviewed the Minister will ensure that the societies will make money available on the scales he suggests.
The next reference is to "the organisation of the demand for houses, by the encouragement of co-operative groups and by the utilisation on a wider scale of the services of the National Building Agency." As I explained earlier, Dublin Corporation have made sites available to groups like the St. Canice's Building Society and other organisations and groups for the purpose of building their own homes. Now, in conjunction with the NBA, organisations like St. Canice's Building Society and other groups should be able to come together and utilise many of the sites which local authorities now have and which probably will be handed over to them for the development of houses on the scale and in the manner in which the Minister suggests. In regard to "steps to ensure the provision of adequate serviced land for housing," the Minister has provided £1 million per year over the last three years for the acquisition of land and the servicing of the land is in progress and schemes are in the process of being developed. This will make further land available in this city and elsewhere. "Encouragement of more standardisation and dimensional co-ordination in the building industry" is exceptionally important. We believe that from the point of view of the local authorities, where you have different types of houses, the components should at least be of a standard type. Any standardisation would give some relief to local authorities and the building industry. At local authority level, particularly in Dublin where you have a variety of houses, with different sized windows and doors, it is quite a problem at times keeping the houses serviced and repaired. Any standardisation of components would assist local authorities in this respect and I would suggest to the Minister that he should investigate this aspect of housing with a view to introducing some uniform system.
Deputy Treacy said there was nothing in the Minister's speech which would give any hope for the future. I am only at page 6 now and there are still 61 pages left. This indicates the careful, comprehensive consideration the Minister has given to all aspects of the housing problem. The Minister's efforts are worthy of commendation, as were the efforts of his predecessors who also made substantial progress in the housing programme.
Some of us feel that there may be some laxity creeping into Dublin Corporation from the point of view of the speed at which the programme should be completed and I would suggest that the Minister should examine the possibility of a similar scheme to that in Ballymun on the south side of the city, in addition to the corporation's normal housing programme to alleviate the situation which has arisen by reason of an expansion in the population following on the development of industries. Greater consideration for the elderly, plus some other factors, has helped to swell the waiting list to its present proportions and serious consideration should, therefore, be given to another large scheme, something on the style of St. Michael's estate. This has been a very creditable achievement from the point of view of housing. The tenants are completely satisfied. I was told by a representative from one of the London authorities that the flats there are far superior to any flats they have built in the Greater London area. That is a great tribute. A number of these representatives who have come to examine our housing schemes were very impressed with this structure, its location and development. I would ask the Minister to see if anything more could be done on these lines.
There are elderly people occupying corporation houses. The houses are not fully utilised and many of these would be satisfied with less accommodation, provided that accommodation were sited in the area in which they are living. If a survey were made I am sure that the Minister would find quite a number of people prepared to give up corporation houses which are not fully utilised in exchange for more suitable accommodation at a lower rent or, in the case of old age pensioners, perhaps, at no rent at all. The houses vacated by them would go some distance towards helping to solve the present problem. There are a number of people in Ballymun, as there are in Crumlin and elsewhere, who would be glad to exchange their present accommodation for accommodation more suitable to their immediate needs, provided that accommodation had all the services and facilities they would require. There are 54,000 dwellings in the hands of Dublin Corporation. A substantial number of those dwellings are not fully utilised. The type of development at Botanic Avenue and Jamestown Close in Inchicore is very desirable. The people in these areas are fully satisfied both with the design of the accommodation and the facilities provided. Further consideration should be given to more development on those lines.
With regard to overcrowding, the Act of 1966 provides that overcrowding occurs when the free air space in any room used as a sleeping apartment is less than 400 cubic feet per person. We have a situation in Dublin at the moment in which a family occupying two rooms can actually be housed before a family occupying only one room. A family may live, eat and sleep in one room; a tenant overhead on the next landing may have a similar room plus a smaller room for sleeping accommodation. It is the sleeping accommodation which is taken into consideration and the family with the larger floor space is actually housed before the family with the smaller floor space. This is ridiculous. These are the things which should be rectified.
Dublin Corporation are housing people on the basis of the Housing Act, 1966. The definition of overcrowding is one which gives a completely false picture to the housing authorities. The sleeping accommodation is the only factor. If a person eats and sleeps in the one room that room is measured as the sleeping apartment but if that person has a small room off it is taken into consideration and in many cases, especially in houses let out in flats, there may be a large room and a small room on one landing and probably a large room and a small room on the next landing. The person who is lucky enough to get two rooms will be housed before the person in one room. I would ask the Minister to have a serious look at this situation.
People have been deprived of accommodation because of the interpretation of this section of the Housing Act. It would be more realistic if many other factors were taken into consideration in relation to family circumstances. Bedroom deficiency, shared accommodation, lack of facilities, such as piped water supply, waste disposal, cooking, bath and hot water supply, lack of natural light, the question of broken families, the question of general health and other factors are not taken into consideration. It is purely the cubic capacity of the room.
Those I have mentioned are real factors in relation to people living in flats or tenements. Natural lighting, whether it comes from one window on a landing or through a skylight over a door is not taken into consideration. This section of the Act will have to be replaced by one providing for consideration of all these factors. Lack of facilities must be an important factor as would be the question of water supply in a room as distinct from water supply in a yard where 20 to 30 people use the same means of waste disposal and the same water supply. Some people have to cook on the landing as they have no facilities in the room. Many have no bath and some have no hot water supply. They may have a gas stove and an open grate. None of these factors is taken into consideration.
The question of broken families, where families are divided, is a very real problem. A factor in connection with broken families is that it is not the broken family itself which is the problem but the distance between husband and wife, whether or not they live in the same street or 50 or 100 miles apart. Those are things which are not taken into consideration in the assessment of priorities for housing accommodation but which should be and must be considered.
This matter has been raised on a number of occasions and I would ask the Minister to give very serious and comprehensive consideration to it. It does not seem to me to be very involved but rigid interpretation by the Dublin City Medical Officer means that people are deprived of accommodation who should be entitled to it. I would ask the Minister to have a look at section 63 of the Housing Act, 1966. The reference in subparagraph (a) to persons of 10 years of age or more of opposite sexes is valid but subparagraph (b) must be amended fairly rapidly because the longer it is retained in its present form the greater the hardship placed on the very considerable number on the waiting list.
The Minister should make an immediate effort to have some amendment made which will bring the Act into realistic focus for local authorities. There is no flexibility in it. It must be interpreted rigidly or otherwise there are difficulties for the housing authorities in regard to priorities. Almost the entire number of people on the waiting list, which is in excess of 4,000, are classified in accordance with this section which is doing great injustice to a considerable group of that number. There are 4,000 people affected at the moment in this city and if there is the same rigid interpretation of the definition of overcrowding throughout the country then there are very many more people affected.
I would ask the Minister to take into consideration some of the factors I mentioned, the question of shared accommodation, whether they have a living room, a kitchen and a bedroom, whether they have separate facilities, whether they have the facilities inside or outside, whether they share facilities in common with other people or not. The question of broken families is also very important. Social workers will tell you that this is probably the most important factor in housing people, that some additional consideration based on mileage between the husband and wife would be given. Once they become separated, if the distance is great the chances of a broken marriage are very real and this is a matter the local authorities should consider. It certainly would be appreciated if some provision in this regard were made in any new Bill which is brought in. When families can get accommodation together they remain as a unit but once they become separated the chance of their coming together is in some cases very remote because of the tension caused by not having their own accommodation and probably having no hope of getting it.
Something when a husband applies for accommodation in Dublin city, whose wife was born in Dublin and the husband sends her down the country, the husband's residential qualification is then a factor and it can probably take up to four years to get accommodation. As I said, the facilities for waste disposal, bath, hot water and natural light are also factors which should be taken into consideration by local authorities and other people in their assessment of priorities for housing accommodation.
I have here details of a scheme operated by the City of Birmingham where all those factors are taken into consideration. It is probably the most effective of the schemes we have seen and examined in relation to the allocation system. Before Dublin Corporation abolished themselves we examined a number of schemes in detail in regard to letting priorities and I think Birmingham was far more effective than any of the other schemes we saw in operation in other cities, even Belfast.
In relation to the high rise flats I once again want to say to the Minister that I completely disagree with the 15-storey buildings erected in Ballymun. Until such time as high rise buildings of this nature become acceptable to our people, we should forget about them. If they are acceptable, the scheme will develop in harmony and there will not be the same number of grievances. We will have to take this on a gradual basis. We may eventually have to reach this height and probably go much higher. Nevertheless, we are not attuned to this and our people do not think in terms of high rise accommodation. I would ask that this be done by a gradual process over a period of years. We could proceed from eight-storey accommodation to nine- or ten-storey accommodation. Most people are opposed to 15-storey accommodation. The eight-storey accommodation which has been developed at St. Michael's Close is completely acceptable to the occupants.
I would like to associate myself with the Minister's remarks regarding the assistance provided by the religious orders and others to the elderly people in the housing estates. There are many old people in these estates. I have a deep interest in the meals-on-wheels service. I myself deliver meals to elderly people and I know these organisations are providing a great service to the local community. We should encourage local organisations to assist even further people who are unable to help themselves. There is much still to be done. An excellent service is provided in the Crumlin and Ballyfermot areas. The Mary Aikenhead Social Service and the Little Sisters of the Assumption in Ballyfermot provide a service second to none for the older people. I would support any assistance which the Government can give to these organisations.
Voluntary organisations do not always get the credit they deserve for the wonderful work they do. The members do not seek publicity for themselves, but work day and night to assist sick and needy people in every possible way. It is sad that there are so many people in our community who have no relatives of their own. A roll of elderly people should be compiled to ensure that State assistance would reach such needy individuals. Such a roll would be of great help also to the voluntary associations in their wonderful work.
In his brief, the Minister dealt with housing in the Seventies. The Minister indicated that there will be a Bill which will give an increase of £50 in the State grant and also provide that local authorities may pay £50 to persons eligible for supplementary grants. This £100 can then go to offset the substantial deposit now required by the builders and bring it within the reach of people of modest means. The Minister is to be congratulated on his forward social thinking and for his complete examination of the problem in relation to people of modest means. The Minister emphasised his desire to rectify the imbalance which has taken place throughout the housing construction programme where grants were made available to people for houses in excess of £6,000 and the owners got remission of rates. If a person can afford to pay £6,000 or £8,000 for a house he does not need the concession which was given in the past.
The National Building Agency is doing wonderful work. In Tallaght one can get an indication of the type of development and progress the agency have made over the years. The agency deserve support and praise for the magnificent effort they have made. They have done great work here in Dublin, particularly with this development in Tallaght. Any Member of the House wishing to know how the NBA works should visit their development at Tallaght. Any doubt he may have had about the NBA will be diminished when he sees the wonderful work done. The NBA are worthy of support to ensure their further advancement and development.
In The Minister's speech there is an item relating to a gas explosion at Ronan Point, London. There was a small gas explosion in one of our flats here. Fortunately very little damage was done. Some of our people are concerned about this matter and would welcome an immediate statement assuring them of their safety. People need reassurance that there will not be a recurrence of what happened at Ronan Point. It is important that defects should be rectified. The Minister and his technical advisers have been examining this matter in depth. I would ask for an early statement in relation to the possibility of any explosion or any type of accident occurring in our flats. Such a statement should assure the people of their complete safety. If there are defects in the structures they should be eliminated at the earliest possible moment. The corporation have assured me that there is no likelihood of any type of disaster, such as occurred elsewhere, occurring in our flats. Any defects found are being examined and analysed with a view to their elimination. An authoritative statement should come from the Minister or the corporation in relation to any incident, such as an explosion, which may have occurred, whether the cause was deliberate or otherwise.