Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 19 Mar 1970

Vol. 245 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 43: Defence.

Tairgim:

Go ndeonófar suim fhorlíontach nach mó ná £10 chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1970, le haghaidh tuarastail agus costais Oifig an Aire Cosanta, lena n-áirítear seirbhísí áirithe atá faoi riaradh na hOifige sin; le haghaidh pá agus costais Óglaigh na hÉireann; agus chun deontas-i-gcabhair a íoc.

Meastachán "Chomharthacha" é seo agus séard is cúis leis ná chun seans a thabhairt do Theachtaí riaradh cosanta a phlé. Mar is eol don Teach, ritheadh an Meastachán bunaigh gan diospóireacht roimh Nollaig. Le déanaí bhí Meactachán forlíontach ós comhair an Tí nuair a bhí diospóireacht cuíosach forleathan againn.

Is minic a deintear gearán gur ábhar gan áird é sa Teach seo an Cosaint. Sé seo an tarna ócáid i dtréimhse gairid, áfach, ina bhfuil an Cosaint mar ábhar diospóireachta againn agus beidh mé ag súil le tuairimína dTeachtaí ina taobh.

Tá fhíos ag Teachtaí agus ag an pobal i gcoitinne go bhfuil greasacht earcaíochta ar siúl i láthair na huaire. Ní h-aon diobháil d'aon fhear óg seal a chaitheamh san Airm agus de réir gach dealraimh, bhainfeadh sé taithneamh ar saol an Airm. Mar adúras cheana maidir leis an greasacht earcaíochta, ba cheart do fir óga na Gaeltachta smaineamh ar thréimhse a chaitheamh í seirbhís a dtíre féin in ionad bheith ag lorg oibre thar lear. Tá aonad Airm speisialta ann le h-aghaidh Gaelgeóirí, sé sin an Chead Chathlán Coisithe i nDún Uí Mhaoilíosa i nGaillimh. Tá folúntaisí san aonad sin fós agus molaim do fir óga na Gaeltachta na foluntaisí sin a líonadh i dtreo is go mbeidh an Chead Cathlán ina neart iomlán aris gan mhoill.

The purpose of this "Token" Estimate is to give the House an opportunity of discussing the main Estimate for Defence for 1969-70 which was passed without debate last November. That Estimate provided for the expenditure of £12,852,000. Recently a Supplementary Estimate for £1,644,000 was passed. The discussion on the Supplementary Estimate ranged fairly widely, so I do not propose to take up the time of the House by going over ground that has already been covered.

The original Estimate was based on an average permanent Defence Force strength of 1,154 officers, 73 cadets and 7,100 NCOs and privates for the year. In the early part of the year it became clear that the figure for men could not be realised without the aid of an intensive recruiting drive. The drive started in September and I am happy to say that it has been very successful. Between the 1st September and the 14th of this month, 1,456 men applied to join and 970 were accepted. The other ranks strength at the end of February was 7,364.

Recruiting goes on all the year round and I would ask Deputies to do all they can to encourage young men to offer their services. I think they would find a few years in the Army a rewarding experience in every way. Of course, if they wished, they could make it their career. There are also opportunities of appointment to commissioned rank. An age concession is given to serving personnel who wish to compete in the annual cadetship competition and a proportion of the vacancies is specially reserved for them.

I might mention also that 31 non-commissioned officers are currently undergoing a potential officers' course of about one year's duration to prepare them for appointment to commissioned rank. Last year, too, a scheme was introduced under which men of the permanent Defence Force were given an opportunity of attending courses of one year's duration at vocational schools with a view to obtaining the day group certificate. The purpose is to raise the educational standard of the men. This would benefit not alone the Army but would be an asset to the men themselves when they return to civilian life. A total of 159 men commenced classes in September and further courses will be arranged in future years. Attendance is on a voluntary basis and the cost is being borne on the Vote for Defence.

A number of Army personnel aged between 44 and 52 years mainly from the 1st (Irish Speaking) Battalion are attending courses of training in such skills as turning, grinding, milling and welding, at the Galway Industrial Training Centre which is under the control of AnCO. This is a pilot scheme the purpose of which is to assist in the resettlement of the men in civilian occupations and to provide operatives for industry.

The apprentice schemes at Naas and Baldonnel continue to be operated. Steps are being taken in consultation with AnCO to ensure that high standards of training will be maintained and that the technicians turned out by the Army apprentice schools will be second to none.

A significant step was taken during the year regarding the training of cadets. Following consideration of the recommendation of the Commission on Higher Education that the training of military cadets should be associated with university studies, I decided in August last that appropriately qualified members of the cadet class appointed in 1968 should be given the opportunity of pursuing university studies at University College, Galway. A total of 14 cadets commenced courses in Arts, Commerce, Science or Engineering in October last. Subject to their passing the normal military tests, these will be appointed to commissioned rank next autumn and thereafter may continue their university studies and obtain a degree.

It is intended that appropriately qualified members of the cadet class appointed in 1969 will be given the opportunity to commence similar studies in October of this year. From this year onwards it is proposed that the educational qualifications for cadets will be the matriculation standard of the National University of Ireland.

The question of new vessels for the Naval Service has been very much in the news. The types of vessels to be acquired must be chosen with great care and judgment as they will involve an outlay of some few million pounds. It is necessary to bear in mind that the Naval Service is not merely a fishery protection service; it must also be trained and equipped for naval tasks.

As already announced, the Government have authorised the acquisition of two vessels, one to be a naval ship which would have a fishery protection potential and the other to be primarily a fishery protection vessel suited to conditions off our coasts. Priority has been given to the naval ship because of its potential for both fishery protection and naval training but difficulty has been experienced in locating a type of vessel, already proven in service, which would conform to the rather special specifications demanded by conditions off our coasts. Investigations regarding both types of vessels are being pushed ahead as quickly as possible.

As regards the fishery protection vessel, we have narrowed down our search to a particular type and Irish Shipping Limited have been appointed to act as the Department's consultants. Already the company have issued an inquiry to a large number of shipbuilders as to whether they would be interested in tendering for the construction of a fishery protection vessel, an outline specification of which was supplied. The outcome of these inquiries is expected very soon. Thereafter the aim will be to invite tenders at the earliest possible date.

The possibility of using small fast patrol boats has been considered. These might have a limited use in local areas in favourable weather conditions but would not provide an adequate fishery protection service under the conditions experienced off our coasts. Adequate protection requires the use of larger vessels of the type we are seeking.

In the past two years £47,000 has been spent on the purchase of horses for the Equitation School. In the 1969 season, all-Army teams competed at Ludwigsburg, Wiesbaden, Vienna, Ostend, Rotterdam, Amsterdam, Brussels and Geneva; and Army riders and horses participated in the Irish teams at the London and Dublin shows. Placing included five firsts, six seconds and 13 thirds. I hope that this marks the beginning of a new and successful phase in the school's history.

Six officer cadets from the Republic of Zambia who were undergoing training in the Military College were joined, in February, 1969, by six Zambia Army officers for an infantry course of five months duration. These officers and cadets successfully completed their training last summer and returned to Zambia. A second class of seven Zambian cadets commenced training at the Military College last October. The costs of running these courses are met by the Government of Zambia.

Helicopters were provided on 41 occasions in response to requests from local authorities for use in an ambulance role in 1969, while on 22 occasions the helicopter services were called on for search and rescue missions.

Six new married quarters have been completed in Limerick. They were built by Army engineer personnel using the most modern building techniques. The improvement of barrack accommodation generally is given a high priority and in recent years considerable progress has been made.

A start has been made in issuing modern combat dress to our troops. This dress, which is already on issue to Irish troops serving with the United Nations Force in Cyprus, is an integrated multi-purpose uniform capable of being adjusted to all climatic conditions. It has now been adopted by practically all modern armies. The ordinary uniforms will continue to be issued for duties which do not necessitate the wearing of combat dress.

Civil Defence did not come within the ambit of the recent Supplementary Estimate and I take this opportunity of making a brief reference to that organisation. The training activities of the Civil Defence organisation were maintained at a satisfactory level during the year. Progress continues to be made in the establishment of control centres from which civil defence operations would be directed and co-ordinated in a national emergency. Generally, there is a growing capability in this area of national defence. Our thanks are due to the members of the organisation for their voluntary unpaid service, and I recall particularly the assistance that they and members of other voluntary organisations rendered in connection with the reception of refugees last year.

During the debate on the Supplementary Estimate, the role of the Defence Forces and their position in our community life were mentioned. Stated simply, the primary role of the Defence Forces is to defend the State against external aggression. As a corollary their main business in peacetime is to prepare themselves to fulfil that role. Apart from this, their most important peacetime role is, perhaps, that of aiding the civil power. In practice, this means assisting the Garda Síochána and at present involves giving assistance at the request of the Garda in the protection of installations of national importance. This role could also take the form of assisting the Garda Síochána, at their request, in the maintenance or restoration of the public peace.

The suggestion was made that the Defence Forces should be more closely integrated in our society. I do not think that there is a real problem here. The personnel of the forces are drawn from and are representative of all sections of our community and they do not become isolated from the community on becoming members of the forces. Many of the peace-time activities of the forces at the official level impinge directly on the community and at the unofficial level, too, I think it is the experience of Deputies that Army personnel are always willing to lend their support and assistance to a wide variety of social activities. All in all, the Defence Forces make a considerable contribution to the common good and any assignment which is given to them is carried out competently and efficiently.

As I said at the outset, the discussion on the Supplementary Estimate ranged fairly widely. The debate now starting gives the House a fuller opportunity of discussing this very important service. If there are any matters of interest to Deputies that I have not touched on, I shall be happy to do so in my reply to the debate.

As the Minister said, we had a discussion recently on the Supplementary Estimate for the Department of Defence and, on that occasion, quite an amount of ground was covered particularly in relation to pay and conditions in the Army. In his reply the Minister referred to a remark of mine, and he referred to it again in his contribution today. I expressed the view that it would be desirable to have a closer integration of the Army into the whole fabric of our society. It is obvious from what the Minister said in replying to the debate on the Supplementary Estimate, and again today, that he misunderstood the significance of that remark, or what I intended it to mean. That was obvious, too, from what Deputy Healy had to say on that occasion.

I certainly welcomed what the Minister said when he deprecated an incident that took place somewhere down the country when people from the naval force were refused admission to some function. He was right to deprecate that. That is something we have got from the past but it is rapidly disappearing. Deputy Healy said that in Cork at least the Army gave an immense amount of assistance and leadership in the running of a variety of social events. I know that is quite true and I know it is true not only in Cork but in the Curragh and in other centres as well. I know the Army have always given this type of leadership and co-operation in social events of one sort or another.

I was referring to something more than that. We must try to involve the Army in the social and economic development of the country. I had in mind a much wider role for the Army. Everything is not as right with the Army as the Minister feels it is. The impression one gets listening to Deputies speaking in the House is that there is nothing wrong and that the Army just sails along in the same old way as always. My honest view is that there is no policy on Defence in this country, that there is considerable political apathy on this question and that, outside the Army itself, there is very little thought or knowledge about it. That is all wrong. There should be considerable concern about the Army.

It is quite true to say that, as a result of this political apathy, as a result of the absence of a mission, the Army is struggling along in a straitjacket of Civil Service restrictions. No proper thought is given to peace-time development of the Army beyond mere maintenance in existence. To maintain itself in existence seems to have been the main purpose of the Army.

We all acknowledge very freely the wonderful work being done by our peace-keeping forces overseas. They are doing magnificent work and were it not for that work I think morale would have dropped to a very low ebb in the Army. When there is this obvious lack of interest or lack of a mission, it leads to disinterest, to a lowering of personal and professional standards. The sooner something is done about this and someone produces a peace-time Defence policy, the better for the Army as a whole.

This is not in any way meant to be a criticism of the people in the Army. We have wonderful and excellent people in the Army. This would happen in any organisation. In the absence of a clearcut mission any organisation becomes an end in itself. This is what is happening in the Army. There is a wonderful opportunity here for a young Minister to stand back and take a look at the situation. Is the Army contributing what it should contribute for the £12 million or £14 million being spent on it annually? I think it is not. The position would be improved enormously if another look were taken at this whole aspect of the work of the Army.

The British Government have got out a pamphlet on the peace-time functions of the Army, on the contribution the Army can make to the civil life of the country. There is a similar opportunity here but it is not being fully utilised. There are a number of matters in which the Army could be involved to the betterment of the Army. So far we have neglected to do this. There are several matters in which it would certainly be worthwhile to involve the Army. There is coastal protection and there is the building of recreational and community centres.

There is a great need throughout the country for the development of youth clubs and recreational facilities. I know the Army is particularly good at this type of work. I see no reason why there could not be temporary secondments from the Army for this type of development. It is extremely important that our young people should have these facilities as soon as possible. This type of work would be ideal training— military training, if you like—for the Army, because it would be akin to the type of work they will be called upon to do later on. This is one job the Army could and should be involved in.

It could be involved in the provision of community halls and meeting rooms, the construction and improvement of sports grounds, the provision of instructors—gymnasium instructors and various other instructors in this field. I could go on giving a long list of projects in which the Army could be involved but I will just refer to this booklet "Military Aid to the Civil Community in the United Kingdom". Just a few of the things they propose is the restoration of disused and derelict canals. There is a wonderful job the Army could be doing here in the development and cleaning up of canals as recreational waterways for our people; there is the improvement of landscapes, nature conservation, coastal protection, restoration of derelict industrial sites. The Army would be doing very useful work in dealing with derelict sites and removing a great number of eyesores. It also refers to the restoration of footpaths and stiles but I think we are looking after them reasonably in Local Government. Then there is the erection of shelters and rescue spots on hills and mountains, route mapping and the adaptation of disused railway installations.

That is just a rough indication of what could be done. We would have to look at our own situation here. In more remote parts of the country development is urgently needed and this type of work would improve the efficiency of the Army for their own job later. Certainly their involvement should be confined to work which would be of assistance and would be suitable training for a soldier in any case.

The Minister referred again to fishery protection about which I have been listening to comments since I came into the House. We have extended our territorial waters, we have an increasingly valuable fishing industry, and, I think the Minister will admit, we have next to no protection. There are three ships that are obviously long past their useful life. There has been continual agitation in this House over the past ten years to do something about them. Fairly considerable sums have been spent on these boats trying to keep them seaworthy and, indeed, failing, and if the three are not laid up now, a short time ago they were.

This is a very serious situation, and it is more serious still when we see the Minister is not yet able to tell us when even one boat or ship will be purchased for fishery protection. This is deplorable. It is not good enough for the Minister to say the position is still under examination and that there appears to have been some progress made in investigating the type of ship that would be most suitable for this work. The fact that it involves the expenditure of money is something that cannot be shirked any longer. There is too much at risk and I, in common with many other people, believe that there is considerable poaching of Irish waters by outside fishermen.

The Minister also referred in his statement to the equitation school and to the fact £47,000 had been spent on the purchase of horses for the equitation school in the past two years. This is something to be welcomed. For far too long we have been working on a shoestring. We were trying to buy horses at prices at which it would be quite impossible to get a decent horse. Now obviously we are paying good prices. No rider no matter how good he is can get results with a bad horse and, as the Minister has said, recent performances give hope of a bright future in the equitation school.

This is extremely important for the bloodstock industry. It is the best advertisement we have. Not only should everything possible be done to get the best horses in the equitation school but also to get the best riders into it. Special inducements should be held out to young people who show themselves at an early age to be skilled horsemen and who have been associated with horses all their lives. One should not expect a green cadet who has had no previous experience of horses to make a first-class horseman. I am sure there are exceptions to this rule, but we should look for the man who already has part of the necessary skill before he goes into the Army; then more than half the battle is won.

I hope the people who are buying the horses are really good judges. It does not necessarily follow that because somebody was in touch with horses all his life, that because he was a good rider himself, he would be a good judge of a horse, a jumper or a potential performer.

I was pleased to hear the Minister tell the House the recent recruiting drive was very satisfactory. I just wonder why it was particularly satisfactory. Is it because pay and conditions have been somewhat improved in recent times? Is it because there are new opportunities opening up for the Army, the prospect of service overseas? I think all these things have their effect.

One of the things that pleased me most about the Minister's statement was the opportunity that is now being given to young people in the Army to attend vocational schools to improve their educational standards. I have always felt there was a limited amount of excellent work being done in Naas and Baldonnel in turning out technicians and that this should be expanded considerably. The Army could be and should be one large vocational school. People should be learning new skills all the time. This is part of the mission of the Army, not waiting for something to happen. Waiting for something to happen has a very demoralising effect, and not nearly enough of our Army personnel are getting this opportunity of training both as technicians and technologists and for other walks of life. If they learn these skills early on, when they leave the Army they will make a useful contribution to civilian life.

I was glad to see, too, that a limited number of cadets are getting an opportunity of taking out degrees at the university. This is something which has been lacking for too long in the Army. All these things contribute to make life in the Army much more attractive.

There was a suggestion recently that there should be a short service scheme in the Army and I agree completely with this proposal. All our young people would benefit as they would get a bit of discipline and toughening-up. The sooner young people realise that there is something worthwhile for them in the Army the better it will be for the country. The wider participation in the social and economic development of the country that is possible in the Army should be an inducement to young people to join. As we make more opportunities available for vocational training and further education there will be no trouble with regard to recruitment. At the moment people have very little information, and consequently very little interest, about what is happening in the Army and this is to be deplored. When all these developments get going there should be an annual report that could be circulated and read by all the people in the country and measures such as this would help to eliminate the apathy that has existed up to now. During the years the Army has carried on in a routine fashion; we have had discussions here about uniforms, pay and conditions but it has generated very little interest throughout the country.

On the subject of accommodation, the Minister said that there is some work in progress to improve living conditions in barracks. An immense amount of work must be done in this sphere. In many cases the outside appearance of the barracks is most unattractive and unappealing and this should be remedied. During the year I asked a question about the number of properties held by the Department of Defence and I discovered that it was simply enormous. Surely it would be far better to have a much smaller number of premises, more suitable and modernised and sell what we do not need. I know quite a number of these properties are FCA huts and halls and that they have to be retained but we could reduce the number of Army establishments probably by 50 per cent and have sufficient left. We should concentrate on ensuring that the remaining 50 per cent are modernised and up-to-date. All of these factors would combine to make life in the Army not merely just bearable but attractive. I was glad to hear that NCOs are now having an opportunity of getting a commission in the Army. Schemes such as this keep people at all levels in the Army on their toes, anxious and willing to co-operate.

Reference was made to Civil Defence and the Minister congratulated the people who give up their time to go into defence and do a useful job. Civil Defence is quite useless unless we develop the observer corps and have a first-class early-warning system through an observer corps. The corps was set up a few years ago and has more or less stood still since then. I should like to hear from the Minister what importance he attaches to the observer corps relative to its importance to the civil defence organisation. There would not be any great difficulty in getting Civil Defence operational if we had this early-warning system and an efficient observer corps. There is no doubt that whenever there is a crisis in the country the people rise to the occasion. We have in existence quite a number of organisations who would co-operate with Civil Defence should an emergency arise. I consider the observer corps and early-warning system more important and deserving of higher priority than Civil Defence itself.

Last year I was a member of the platform party at the GPO during the St. Patrick's Day parade and I was very surprised and disappointed. There was a small unit of the FCA participating and one can only say that they were very droopy-looking and their appearance was not a credit to the Irish Army. The purpose of having a parade is to show something at its best and this is particularly so at the St. Patrick's Day parade. I cannot say what was the purpose of having the small unit of FCA participating but it did not give a good impression of the Irish Army. St. Patrick's Day is an important day, not only in this country but in many places throughout the world, and it would add an immense amount to that parade if even a small well turned-out unit of the Army participated but if we cannot be proud of the appearance of our Army in a parade I do not think they should participate at all. For far too long we have had a bad impression of the Army but I am glad to say that this is disappearing. If the various suggestions I have made were implemented I do not think there would be any difficulty with regard to recruitment.

We referred recently to disturbances in the north of Ireland. While I certainly hope that there will not be a recurrence, a situation exists there whereby such disturbances could arise again. The people in the Army did an excellent job during the last crisis in the various refugee camps and at the depots set up at the Border. We should be prepared for emergencies of this kind in the future.

The Minister has not referred to the position of our Army if we join the EEC. We are now actively negotiating and hope to become members of the Community in a couple of years time. Will such membership carry with it a defence commitment and what further calls will it make on the Army? I was disappointed that the Minister did not include these matters in his statement to the House although I know he explained his statement was necessarily short because he did not think it necessary to go into matters more deeply having covered the ground so recently in the Supplementary Estimate.

If there is duplication in this debate the blame for it must, I think, fall on the Government. I cannot understand why the Supplementary Estimate introduced a few weeks ago and the other Supplementary Estimates were not taken in conjunction with the main Estimates. In Social Welfare, which is not an easy Estimate to deal with, it was found possible to deal with both the Supplementary Estimate and the main Estimate together. For the life of me, I cannot understand why this could not have been dealt with in the same way. There may be some good reason why it was not but I cannot see what that reason was.

I shall try to avoid duplication, but it will not be easy because the Minister mentioned a number of matters which were not mentioned before. He referred, for instance, to the recruiting campaign. I do not know whether or not the campaign is a success. The Minister gave the number of other ranks strength at 7,364 at the end of February of this year. He also gave the number who were accepted: 974 out of 1,456 who applied. Would the Minister be able to tell us how many have left the Army? What is the annual wastage? I notice that the Minister says the original Estimate was based on an average permanent Defence Force strength of 1,154 officers, 73 cadets and 7,100 NCOs and privates. We assume they are above strength but the Minister has not told us what the strength of the officers is now. Perhaps he would tell us when he is replying how many officers we have.

I do not see anything wonderful in the arrangement by which a certain number of men are selected to undergo a potential officers' course; 31 out of 7,364 appears to be a pretty small percentage. I agree with Deputy Clinton— perhaps not for quite the same reason —about the lack of incentive. Looking around this House I see quite a number of ex-Army personnel. Most of us served during the emergency. There was then a certain incentive. We were training for something. Towards the end of the emergency things began to get a bit sloppy and I am told that the situation now has deteriorated very considerably.

As Deputy Clinton said, the incentive to train for something does not appear to be there. That does not mean that the type of people in the Army are not as good as, or better than, they were during the emergency. Having 7,000 8,000 or 9,000 young men scattered in a few barracks throughout the country, reporting for duty in the morning and with very little to do during the day, is not, in my opinion, the way in which an Army should be trained. I do not want the Minister to get the impression I am blaming him for this. This is a sort of tradition handed down. A small number of new weapons is available and the Minister says they have got the new automatic rifle now. That is a big improvement on what they had. There should be a considerable sharpening up of weapon drill.

As far as the general appearance of soldiers is concerned, I notice, and I am sure everyone else does too, that while soldiers take a certain part in public life they usually do so in civilian dress. We do not see many soldiers in uniform. Here in this city one would get the impression that there is not a soldier anywhere near it. This is due to one of two things: the walking out dress is not up to the standard soldiers would like it to be when they are in public or, as happens in every other country in peace time, the soldier is not given the place in society to which he is entitled. Like other countries we tend to look down our noses on men in uniform during peace time. If there is a war the soldier becomes a hero overnight. I think the big trouble is that the Irish people are not giving to the soldier the due to which he is entitled.

The Army itself must carry a certain amount of responsibility for this. There should be more public parades, more Army bands and more soldiers competing in different types of sport. It should be generally accepted that the Army does exist. Until the recent recruiting campaign started—most of the advertising seems to be the rangers on television—not very much use appears to have been made of the Permanent Defence Force to encourage people to join the Army. The soldiers should be dressed as well as possible, drilled, trained to march properly and they should be marched through our cities and towns in order to attract recruits. That was done during the emergency and no march ever took place that did not result in a considerable number of new recruits. I am not talking about the dogs that followed the soldiers into the barracks; that was just one of those things. The pay at that time was ridiculously low. It could not be called pay at all. On the last occasion on which we debated the Defence Estimate the Minister said he considered the pay they are getting now quite reasonable and he thought it was unfair to say that £8 a week would not encourage young men to join the Army, remembering that they got a uniform and food as well.

I understand the food has improved but not to the extent to which it could improve. In the battalion to which I belonged they used to say that if the cook were hanged for being a cook he would be hanged in the wrong; there are still some of these cooks in the Army. If a cook goes sick he is replaced by some fellow who says he knows something about cooking; what he really means is that he will be in a position to eat more food than is ordinarily given to him and he wants to get in on the ground floor. The cooking is not what it should be and the result is that good food is spoiled. Only the very best cooks should be allowed to touch food. The Army should be able to train cooks. Trained cooks would easily find employment outside when they leave the Army. The diningrooms could be cleaner. I will leave it at that. Most of the men come from good homes and they are used to having food served attractively and, if they are are not, they should get used to it during their time in the Army. They should have the very best of cooking and eating facilities. It is not right that they should be expected, just because they are soldiers, to eat off a bare or an enamel-topped table. There is no reason at all why tablecloths and the ordinary effects in common use should not be made available. An adequate supply of food should be available to the young men in the Army.

The Army have a problem. Very often they find that a man who may not be much use and who has been in the Army for a long time—he may have 21 years service, be married with a big family—decides to leave the Army after 21, 22 or perhaps 29 years service. His decision is received with acclamation. Others who would be worth more than what they are paid by the Army authorities might decide to leave the Army for family reasons. I know of a case of a man who decided to leave. He made his application. It was processed, but before he actually left he found that the problem he had to deal with had disappeared. This man asked for permission to continue on in the Army. The Army, noting that he was costing a lot and that a young recruit would cost less, said he must go. This man would have been an acquisition to the Army for another year or two.

I understand there will be an adjustment in pay for the Army this year in keeping with all the other public services. If we do not keep the pay in line with what can be obtained outside, the Army personnel will be dissatisfied. The question of pension does not seem to have altered. I mentioned previously the case of a man with 21 years service who got one shilling per year afterwards. I meant that if a man serves an extra year with the Army he gets one shilling per week for each year he serves over 21 years. The Minister may have misunderstood me on that occasion. I thought everybody knew exactly what I was talking about. It was ridiculous to suggest that a man with 21 years service who decides to stay on for a period of years after that will be given only one shilling per week per year for such service. This should have been reviewed. The present Minister for Defence is a man who, from his own knowledge, will agree this should be done.

Something should be done about gratuities. The married officer gets a gratuity and pension. The single officer and the unfortunate NCO get no grant no matter how long they have served. The NCO gets six months predischarge leave. During this leave, the State retains his insurance cards. An ex-Army man could not sign on as unemployed, nor could he take up a job without his insurance cards. This was put right. Heretofore, a man was allowed to have his six months predischarge leave only on condition that he did not work. If he worked, he lost it. The situation has now been altered for the better. But the man still does not get any gratuity.

There has been mention of the 31 non-commissioned officers currently undergoing an officers' course. How were these men selected? I know many soldiers. Many of them were anxious to be taken on this course. They were interviewed. They told me the interview did not consist of anything important. They were well educated, intelligent men with experience in the Army. These men were not selected. I do not know on what basis the selection was made. Was it decided that only 31 men could be accommodated? We could all understand that accommodation might have limited the course to 31 men, leaving out many who might be equally useful. In the course of his speech the Minister said:

It is intended that appropriately qualified members of the cadet class appointed in 1969 will be given the opportunity to commence similar studies in October of this year. From this year onwards it is proposed that the educational qualifications for cadets will be the matriculation standard of the National University of Ireland.

Will this apply to future serving NCOs who will be interviewed for the purpose of promotions?

That is a different category.

I know it is. We are creating something new. This sort of thing slips through without much notice. Are the NCOs expected to have this qualification in future? It is an excellent thing that adult education is being provided for certain soldiers. They ought to avail of it. The question of teaching soldiers a trade or, if possible, a profession while they are in the Army for 21 years is a matter of great importance.

The school which trains the personnel at the Curragh is doing a good job. It does not cover the main bulk of serving soldiers who do not appear to be given any opportunity of learning a trade, craft or profession while in the Army. Many of them might not welcome using their spare time for educational purposes during their first year, but after that they would more than welcome something which would train them and make them better equipped for civilian life when they return to it. I have met people who have left the Army after 35 years. On returning to civilian life they found they were regarded as middle-aged men whom nobody really wanted. The skills they had acquired in the Army were of no use to them. Some of them did unskilled labouring work for which they were quite unsuited.

Deputy Clinton has been talking about getting soldiers to do reconstruction and demolition work. The curse of the Army is the fatigue system and the habit of putting overalls on the soldiers in a spare hour and making them do unskilled labour. If you want to prevent recruiting all that is necessary is to show on the next issue of posters or Ranger advertisements the fact that, in addition to jumping over tanks and so on, soldiers are expected to put on fatigues and dig ditches and holes. That will finish it for good.

I am also interested in what will happen if we go into the EEC. I hope we shall never go in and I made this clear before. Let us have no doubt about it: the present Taoiseach definitely said two years ago in an interview in Paris that we were prepared to accept all defence commitments. If that has been changed the Minister should let us know because there will be defence commitments. One of the things I have against the EEC is that it is building up a power bloc and I think it wrong to hand over our economy, including autonomy in regard to our defence forces, to a power bloc.

At present the Minister says the Army has two jobs, to protect us from outside aggression, which is not very likely at present unless we consider the "headers" in the Six Counties, and internal defence. I believe the main function of the Army is, and has been for many years internal defence; it is necessary to maintain an army for internal defence because a country without an army to defend its government means a very weak government unable to defend itself against those who feel they can, by brute force, take over the country. While we may consider it unthinkable that this could happen here we all know of two or three groups in the country at present, admittedly small, who have the avowed intention of overthrowing the Government. The only way to ensure this will not happen is to have an adequate defence against them. We must also protect such establishments as the ESB and it is right that the Army should be used for this purpose.

I am amazed that the Minister did not refer at all to the FCA. Have they ceased to exist so far as the Department is concerned? Are they no longer regarded as part of the Defence Forces? If so, they should be so informed. Deputy Clinton was pretty harsh about the appearance of the FCA going down O'Connell Street. Having had the not very pleasant experience of marching down O'Connell Street on a wet, cold day, I wonder what Deputy Clinton would feel like if he was in that position, particularly if, as most of those concerned probably had to do, he had already done a good day's work. They were not regular Army personnel and, perhaps, it was a mistake not to have regular Army personnel marching. I would not be too anxious to condemn the appearance of the FCA because we are not doing much to help them. The time is long past when we should have ensured that the FCA were provided with the best modern equipment and decent uniforms and that their training facilities were better than they are now. I feel strongly about the situation of the FCA because I know that for the purpose of giving the impression that we have a pretty strong FCA force, summer camps are held and people who do not appear for training from one end of the year to the other come to these camps and have what they regard as a fortnight's holiday. You also have the dedicated FCA man who attends for every night's training all the year round and considers himself an adjunct of the Army and, in fact, a soldier even though working as a civilian and he is treated exactly the same as the fellow who just arrives for the fortnight's training and then disappears.

I would screen out those who are not prepared to pull their weight and insist that only those interested in being members of the FCA be considered for training or equipment or uniform and I would pay those who remain much better than they are being paid at present. There is a complete waste of money in regard to the FCA at present and it is a bad joke to allow people who call themselves members of the FCA but only turn up once a year for training to have the same treatment as those who are real members of the force. They are paid by the State, not very much, I admit, and are also paid from their jobs because they are training. These people could not be relied on in an emergency. I appeal to the Minister to have something done about this and improve the position of those who are genuinely interested and get rid of those who are not interested and are very little use and would certinly be useless if the question of defence ever arose.

The Minister says that six new married quarters have been completed in Limerick. I assume if other married quarters were created we would hear about it. does the Minister not agree that this is a puny effort when he says that out of a £14 million Estimate six new married quarters have been provided? So far as I know, local authorities generally have been very decent—I do not suggest they should be otherwise—about providing houses for soldiers in Dublin and throughout the country. The Army must face the problem themselves and provide more married quarters for their own personnel. I understand there is still a great deal of overholding and this problem should be resolved. It is a big question. Surely the Department of Defence could deal with the local authority in the area concerned and ensure that when a man in married quarters is leaving the Army he will be given accommodation for himself and his family. There was a period when a soldier leaving the Army got preference for a job: there are not many of them and is it too much to ask that they should now be given preference for a house? Since this would mean that a house would be available for another soldier I think it would commend itself to everybody.

"Improvement of barrack accommodation generally is given a high priority and in recent years considerable progress has been made." I think this has been said every year and I do not accept that it is the true position. Some slight improvement has been made in barrack accommodation but I think anybody who has gone to the trouble of going through even the most modern barracks will agree that they are still the most uncomfortable quarters to be found in the country. The particular bee I have in my bonnet is Gormanston Camp which was erected before the first world war. This consists of a number of wooden huts and the Minister says that comfortable accommodation is being made available for soldiers. When the refugees were there I know a certain amount of repair work was done and that wooden partitions were erected across floors to give the impression to people there that they were in some sort of room rather than in a hut. I wonder will the partitions be taken down when the refugees leave or will the soldiers be allowed the luxury of having a hut divided into two or three parts?

A man who joins the Army, whether for nine or 21 years, should be entitled to decent living accommodation and some effort should be made to modernise this accommodation. A minor point is the question of wash houses, as they were called, and WCs located several hundred yards away from the sleeping accommodation. This has not been changed. It was not even possible to do it for the refugees. With an Estimate of £14 million, it should be possible to put a little of it on one side to try to modernise the accommodation for these people.

Perhaps the Minister would explain the position as regards the issue of combat dress to troops. They used to call it a ground sheet long ago. The multi-purpose uniform we were issued with was used as a mattress, on occasions. I should like to see one of these multi-purpose uniforms which are supposed to be suitable for places like Cyprus and places like Ireland. If we set out to supply troops in Ireland with a battledress that would suit them in Irish conditions I think we would be going in the right direction. I am afraid there might be a certain amount of EEC thinking at the back of this multi-purpose uniform mentioned by the Minister. However, I may be wrong, as I have not had an opportunity of looking at this battledress. We are told it has been adopted by practically all modern armies. Have we made any attempt to modernise what is worn other than the parade dress or this multi-purpose battledress? What comes in between?

The type the Deputy wore has long since gone.

There is still some of it in the stores. They are being issued as battledress to the unfortunates in the present modern Army to which the Minister is referring.

The Minister referred to Civil Defence. At local level, it should have been given more opportunity to participate in the recent relief of refugees from the north. The Civil Defence people in Meath feel they were not well treated in connection with that incident. Somebody was drafted down from Dublin. We know the Dublin people know everything and how to do everything and, therefore, when something like this comes along, they take over. If there had been a few bullets about, we are not so sure that the rush down there would have been so great.

How many civilians are employed in the running of the Defence Forces? This is one case where possibly the members of the Defence Forces could fill in.

A proportion of 1,500 to 9,000. My final point concerns the Organisation of National Ex-Servicemen. A number of people mentioned Army participation in civilian life. We feel they could take a much bigger part. ONE covers all ex-servicemen and women since the initiation of the State. They are making a big effort to assist discharged soldiers who need assistance and they try to keep them together socially. In my opinion, they are not getting the co-operation from the State to which they are entitled. They are the one really non-political organisation in this country—not that I have anything against politicians or politics. The fact that Deputy Dowling and myself, and this type of person are in the same organisation, working together on the same committee, is proof enough that there is nothing political about it. Would it be possible for the State to put soldiers about to be discharged in contact with the secretary of ONE?

Furthermore, would it not be possible to give a small State subvention to the organisation to give it a proper footing in this State? They do a lot of work. I believe they do it all on voluntary subscriptions, money which it is pretty difficult to get. An organisation such as that, dependent on getting money from people most of whom have not enough for themselves, has not much chance of getting off the ground. I would ask the Minister seriously to consider a subvention to ONE. Like many organisations, they are doing an excellent job and are entitled to more encouragement than they are getting.

I wish to pay tribute to the members of the Defence Forces who have distinguished themselves in the peace-keeping operations in the Congo and in Cyprus. We should go much further than the two previous speakers, who have not had experience of peace-keeping operations. A reassessment of the Army in relation to its retention and its future use is long overdue. A reassessment of the Army, the Air Corps and the Naval Services should be undertaken in order to establish, once and for all, the role of the armed services.

There are many personnel serving in the Defence Forces who are unfit for active military service. This situation should be examined to find out how it has developed and how it can be corrected. A soldier should at all times be efficient to participate fully in any action he might be called upon to engage in. Such is not the case at present. We should aim to eliminate this situation by a reassessment of the position in relation to the soldier and to the officer.

I am aware that extensions are necessary at the moment for a variety of reasons, some of them mentioned by Deputy Tully and Deputy Clinton. In some cases personnel look for and are granted extensions purely because they are not equipped to enter civilian life. This is a matter that must get prime consideration. We must ensure that in the future extensions are not granted which will delay promotions. Promotions and promotion opportunities are an effective factor in having a contented service. It is quite true that some extensions will have to be given to those who did not get some type of training prior to their discharge into civilian life. We should have a new look at the service in relation to its efficiency to do the job it may be called upon to do in the future. The needs and requirements of present-day armies are well known. With all the information we have about peacetime soldiering and emergency conditions, about the Congo and Cyprus, and even civil war conditions, we can build a sound and effective defence force and project an excellent image. We must project a better image in the future. The image which is presented at the moment is a result of the confused situation and the piecemeal development over a period because of non-attention to having discharged personnel equipped to meet the future.

We must also have a reassessment of the military installations and military barracks, and we must dispose of those that are surplus or redundant for one reason or another. In many of the barracks one of the problems is heating. This is a cause of discontent. There are turf fires which heat only a small portion of the rooms and, at this stage, we must have properly heated and properly constructed barrack rooms with cubicles where possible. This reassessment of the barracks is long overdue. It has been mentioned on numerous Estimates that we should examine this situation and dispose of what we do not require. There are many that come to my mind that could be disposed of.

I want to make an appeal now on behalf of a section that is very often forgotten, that is, the wives of the soldiers who are living in married quarters. I will take the married quarters in the Curragh as being the centre on which the Army revolves. The wives of many serving soldiers are living in the married quarters there. There are some good married quarters around O'Higgins Road and, at the other end, around McDonagh, there are the old married quarters. The wives of the soldiers now have to endure long months of separation due to service abroad and in the outposts on the Border and elsewhere. They are living in conditions which should be and must be brought up to date.

The erection of more married quarters is necessary and desirable. We are handling the situation in the wrong way. It is not very impressive to read that six houses have been built as married quarters in Limerick. That is not enough. We have a responsibility to house the soldiers, just as the local authorities have a responsibility to house personnel in their areas. The necessary money to build accommodation and to bring existing accommodation up to reasonable standards should come from the Capital Budget and not from the Defence Forces Estimate. If we accepted that we were housing families, whether they be serving personnel or civilians, and that the money should come from that pool rather than from the Defence Force Estimate, the necessary money could be made available for the provision of married quarters. There must be new thinking on the question of married quarters.

I am glad to see that the Army corps of engineers, of which I was a member, have constructed the married quarters in Limerick and barracks in Clonmel and various other places. They have done excellent jobs in the past. I am glad to see that the personnel in the Army corps of engineers are being utilised and I trust that the Minister will see that their energies and skills will be utilised to the benefit of the Army in the future. I would ask the Minister to consider an allocation from the Capital Budget for the housing of Army personnel whether they be soldiers or civilians. I hope he will have an early look at the situation in the Curragh.

What about Portobello?

I will deal with Portobello in a few minutes. I slept in the married quarters in the Curragh during the emergency period and I know exactly the type of accommodation that is provided. I slept both in the new married quarters and the married quarters in McDonagh Barracks. I never occupied the married quarters in Cathal Brugha Barracks. The wives of serving soldiers who have to endure long separations should at least have the comforts that are provided by the local authorities. They are far below that standard and something must be done about it.

It is time that the married quarters in Cathal Brugha Barracks were demolished. I can see no reason why people should have to live in captivity, so to speak, in a barracks. A soldier and his family should be outside the walls of a barracks. The day when it was necessary to have families maintained behind barrack walls has gone. Married quarters should be built away from Cathal Brugha Barracks and then the integration which has been spoken about can be fully effective. Some portion of an allocation from the Capital Budget should be devoted to the housing of serving personnel who are deserving of the consideration mentioned by Deputy Tully and Deputy Clinton. I would ask the Minister again to ensure that the Curragh, which is the pivot upon which the Army revolves to a large degree, will get every consideration to ensure that the quarters there are brought up to a high standard.

In relation to the soldier himself, the gratuity which has been mentioned must come at some stage. We should also have a look at the predischarge leave and see can we develop a more effective type of contribution for the retiring soldier. It has very many defects as we all know. A man who retires from the Army cannot take employment in the Government service and avail of predischarge leave. On the other hand he can take up employment in other commercial concerns in the city or country and retain his predischarge leave. When predischarge leave was first introduced we were told it was a question of equipping a man for civilian life, of the resettlement of personnel. If that is so, I can see no reason why a person should be debarred from employment in the Government service because he has retired from the Army.

There are other defects in the predischarge leave. Perhaps a more suitable term than "predischarge" leave would enable a person to resettle himself and his family during this period. If a job for which a person is suitable becomes available in the Government service, he cannot accept it if he is living in married quarters. The number of jobs becoming available in Government service, in the Corps of Engineers, the Board of Works or other such services are very few and it is wrong that if a job for which the man is suitable becomes available he should be unable to accept it because he cannot procure outside accommodation at a given moment.

There is a way around this predischarge leave question. Could a person not opt to return to service during this period? There is no reason why such personnel could not have the same opportunity within 30 days or 90 days of their discharge from service. The Minister should have another look at this question of predischarge leave.

I am also in favour of a uniform allowance and good conduct pay. If a person gets a uniform allowance he will keep his clothes in the best possible condition in order to obtain the allowance. On the other hand, if he knows he will be issued with equipment at particular periods he will not be so concerned about the state of the equipment. Again, it makes little difference whether a soldier's conduct is good or bad. An allowance for good conduct would be an incentive for a person to be a better soldier and would ensure that his conduct was of the highest possible order.

The soldier is faced with quite a number of problems prior to his discharge and immediately afterwards, and more consideration should be given to predischarge training. The AnCO centres in Waterford, Limerick and Galway are making an important contribution and the new one in Ballyfermot will play an important part in due course. The limitation of skills among Army personnel has come about because of the type of employment to which they were assigned during their Army service. Many people have been retired from the Army and have ended up as petrol pump attendants. This disgraceful situation should be rectified. There should be an advisory service so that in, say, the last ten years of their service in the Defence Forces, personnel would gradually be equipped to take their place in civilian life. They should receive advice in relation to their future requirements by way of housing accommodation, the availability of grants and other services that would be at their disposal. In this way the people now retiring would have a home and greater opportunities than the people who went before them. The AnCO centres must be further developed. There should be some allocation of space in each of these centres for Army personnel who have given so much to the country over the years. The Minister is aware of the situation and I hope he will take the necessary steps to ensure that career guidance and the necessary training will be made available.

I have spoken to officers who believe that officer assessment at an early stage is both necessary and desirable. If this were done they would know what their prospects were. If an officer felt that promotional opportunities would not be available to him, then he could make arrangements to readjust himself to civilian life at an age when it would be possible for him to do so. At the moment there is not this kind of assessment. Superior officers in the Army know that certain people are not suitable for high office. They are diverted into dead-end jobs when they have ability that could be utilised more effectively in civilian life. They should have the alternative of accepting what might be called a dead-end job or of leaving the Army at an early age when they would be capable of readjusting to civilian life. This matter should get consideration in the very near future.

I consider the present recruiting campaign an appalling mistake. There was no imagination displayed; it came at a period prior to Christmas, when it is extremely difficult to entice anyone away from home, and after that it was discontinued. The campaign should spell out clearly what life in the Army has to offer. The question of nationalistic outlook is not referred to in the advertisements; it might attract people who have this outlook. Instead, we have only the cold fact that a recruit gets so much money per week. If the campaign were presented in a more attractive form and if the opportunities available were fully explained, I am sure we would have a greater response.

If we let the young people of the country know the opportunities in the Army for vocational training, university study and so on, we will attract a very desirable type of person. As Deputy Tully has mentioned, the Army is now merely regarded as a fatigue unit. Deputy Clinton has said that soldiers should be put to cleaning the canals, digging ditches, clearing derelict sites and so on. This is the easiest way to kill a recruiting campaign and to dishearten those who might otherwise hope to make a career in the Army. It is not the work of a soldier to do this kind of work and we can certainly find more worthwhile work for him to do.

I visited the apprenticeship school at Naas recently and I should like to congratulate the people who are working there in very difficult conditions. The personnel are doing a magnificent job and the conditions are utterly appalling. Because of some silly notion of a local manager they are unable to construct new accommodation and I can certainly say that I should not like to send my children to live in the accommodation at present available. The training facilities, the instructors and the opportunities are excellent but many of the people at the apprenticeship school are living in huts that were obsolete even in the emergency period. We must be realistic and ensure that red tape is not allowed to impede the provision of facilities and accommodation. We cannot stand for this kind of nonsense from local authorities in regard to accommodation. I know Deputy Tom Nolan has been examining this problem for the last few months and I think he has all the information available. Where we have an apprenticeship school dealing with young men, offering the facilities that are available, we should have the necessary accommodation. Some of the accommodation is good but there are also the obsolete huts at Naas. This situation needs to be remedied. Money was made available for this development and there is no reason why red tape should impede the development of facilities and accommodation.

Many of the machines I have seen there need replacing and I would ask the Minister to ensure that this is carried out immediately. We cannot effectively train young people with machinery that is defective and out-of-date. When we have a service such as this apprenticeship school, which is doing wonderful work, it should have the best available machinery. The young people should have the best possible tools and equipment. They should be able to operate under conditions which will bring out the best in them. I know the difficulty of working with defective machines. I know the effect that can have on an apprentice. I understand they are seeking new lathes. If I were in charge I would seek far more than they are seeking. I know there is a problem with regard to finance. Piecemeal provision, a bit this year and a bit next year, is very undesirable.

I would ask the Minister to have another look at this very effective unit. Those in charge are doing a wonderful job. The instructors are of the highest calibre. New machinery and better accommodation must be provided to ensure that the apprentices get the best possible training during their limited period in Naas. A continuation of training in the AnCO centres or with some of the semi-State bodies when they come out of Naas would give them a new approach. Any limitation results in a limited outlook. Continuation of training would enable the apprentices to learn new techniques and equip them to meet the requirements of the labour market when they leave the service. They must have some knowledge of what lies ahead, what they must achieve and what further training is necessary. They can utilise the various facilities in the vocational schools and under the schemes outlined by the Minister. I would urge the Minister to expand this development to other centres. At the moment there is just the one school in Naas. I doubt if it is enough. A similar school in the south would be very useful. It could well induce more young people into apprenticeship schools.

The naval service is an important service, but it is one that is often forgotten. It is the only service in which the men are on active duty the whole time in contradistinction to the Air Corps or the Army. I am glad that new ships will be purchased.

There are no ships at all at the moment and the men are not on active service at the moment.

They are on active service all right.

Not at sea.

If they are not active it is a deplorable situation.

The Deputy can say that again.

I am concerned about the service. The men have been badly treated. There is no incentive for young men to go into the naval service because of the antiquated vessels. They are long past their best. They should have been scrapped many years ago. Those in the naval service operate under conditions which bring out the best in them and they have measured up admirably. I have been on board one of the naval——

The Deputy has been at sea for years.

The Deputy is only a medical orderly. He is not a doctor like Deputy Dr. O'Donovan. Promises are not enough to young men who want to make a career of the sea. At the moment there is no incentive. The quicker new vessels are procured the better it will be.

I should like to pay tribute to those who have done such an excellent job with the material available and under such difficult conditions. I hope the Minister will expedite the purchase of ships to ensure that young men who want to join the naval service can do so in the knowledge that their conditions will compare favourably with conditions elsewhere. No words of mine could do justice to those manning our naval service.

The food issued to the Army was mentioned. I have visited some of the cookhouses recently and the quality of the food and the standard of the cooking are much higher now than they were years ago. Flexibility is permitted. Exchange deals can be operated. That is very desirable because those operating the service are in the best position to know the kind of food that is most acceptable. The food is no longer taken from a list as it was in the past. The Army personnel must have variety in their food. The day has come when an exchange deal can be made at no extra cost to the service.

This exchange situation is one that should be developed. I am told that in many cases items of equipment which they do not want are issued to personnel. Items of equipment which are necessary cannot be obtained. If it is indicated that someone wishes to obtain one item in lieu of another, he is told that the unwanted item will be taken away but no other item is issued to him. There should be more flexibility in relation to the issue of equipment. I am told that the attitude of the people in charge of the service is inflexible.

Like Deputy Tully I wish to speak about the Organisation of National Ex-Servicemen. This is an effective organisation which assists many ex-servicemen. This organisation should get a contribution from the State. In relation to the resettling of personnel I have said that once they are outside the barrack gate they are forgotten. The ONE have done great work in the past to assist such men. Those within the service soon forget the ex-servicemen. I had personal experience of this. I received less consideration than others who were on a par with me in other armies got. The ONE should get some contribution from the State to ensure the continuation of their valuable work. Effective training should be given to people leaving the Army to prepare them for work outside. We should have advisory and guidance services to ensure that ex-Army personnel are channelled into employment.

I appeal to the Minister to examine the question of the reserve training grant which is out of date and which needs to be increased. Unless something is done the reserve will diminish. The comments of some district justices who indicate that a person who has committed a crime should seek admittance to the Army are deplorable. The Minister has pointed out that this is not the type of person needed in the Army. The Army want the best personnel. We must develop an image of the Army to ensure that people will be attracted to it. People of the type commented on by the district justices are not accepted in the Army.

Deputy Tully pointed out that we seldom see a soldier in uniform in Dublin. This may be because the type of equipment the soldier carries is not suitable. He may feel he would be doing an injustice to the service if he paraded through the city with it. There may be some other reasons. Dancehalls in the city and elsewhere often refuse to admit personnel in uniform. Something must be done about this. Young men who have given their service voluntarily are entitled to every consideration. Some promoters of football matches and some cinema managements allow personnel in uniform on their premises at reduced prices. The Minister should ensure that better facilities are provided in order that recruits may be attracted to the service. Much money has been spent on a recruiting campaign. We should have a more realistic recruiting campaign. The question of careers is a vital one. The Army should have the necessary facilities for career guidance. The Minister might consider the new FCA officers and the possibility of young men joining the FCA to obtain a place on the Army jumping team. Many of these young men are skilled horsemen. They have not had the recognition they deserve.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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