asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement in regard to the present situation in Northern Ireland and the measures being taken by the Government in regard to it and in particular in relation to impartial disarming and the question of parades.
Private Notice Questions: - Northern Situation.
asked the Taoiseach if, in view of the serious deterioration of the situation in the North of Ireland, he will indicate to the House what action the Government propose to take.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take together the two Private Notice Questions addressed to me.
As I have already stated on a number of occasions I have made our views known to the British Government on the matters raised by Deputy Cosgrave.
Yesterday at my request the Minister for External Affairs visited the Falls Road area of Belfast, the intention being to reduce tension in the area by demonstrating the Government's interest in the welfare of the people of the area and also to obtain confirmation, at first hand, of the information we had already received, and to ascertain the feelings of the people. They had been forcibly dispossessed of weapons that they held for their defence. I do not condone the unauthorized possession of arms by anyone but the people of the Falls area know that weapons, probably more up-to-date, and greater in quantity, are held by militant Unionists. So far no effective action seems to have been taken to disarm them.
There was fear, there was apprehension amongst the people of the Falls. They felt isolated. People of the will turn almost anywhere for help. It is vitally important that this fear be not exploited by subversive elements for their own ends. If a situation developed in which such people would turn to subversive elements there would be a very grave threat to peace and security not only of the people in the Falls but in the Six Counties as a whole and possibly in the rest of the country.
Yesterday's visit was an initiative for peace and while it may have been devoid of diplomatic niceties it was undertaken in full accord with our policy of seeking a peaceful solution of the whole problem, and this policy has not changed.
The Government have also arranged to inform the Heads of Mission of all countries represented here of the Government's views on the present situation in the north. The Minister for External Affairs will visit London tomorrow for further conversations.
First, has an undertaking been given by the British Government that the disarming of elements in the North of Ireland would be an impartial disarming and that both sides who have arms would be disarmed without any discrimination? Secondly, has the Taoiseach received any information as to whether parades are to be prohibited over the weekend?
No undertaking has been given by the British Government about further disarming. We are continuing to press vigorously our views in this respect. We have had no indication as to whether parades will be cancelled or curbed in any way. As the Deputy is aware, the British Home Secretary is meeting this afternoon representatives of the Orange Order, who are responsible for holding these parades. It may be that no announcement will be made in advance of the meeting. As I have just indicated, the Minister for External Affairs will be visiting London tomorrow and he will no doubt raise this question again.
Does the Taoiseach not agree that in view of the changed situation there is a necessity for a debate on the Northern Ireland situation in this House?
That does not arise from the Deputy's question. That particular point was debated here last week.
It must be appreciated that one's views and the views of this House cannot be adequately expressed in a manner such as this by way of question and answer. It is for this reason that I repeat my query to the Taoiseach as to whether or not he will allow time for a debate at least before the adjournment, whenever that might be, particularly in view of the fact that both Stormont and Westminster have discussed the matter and will be discussing it further. Does the Taoiseach not agree that other voices should be heard in this Parliament on the Northern situation? The Taoiseach speaks for the Government and he has a responsibility but it does not necessarily follow that he speaks for the majority of the people. In view of the deep interest and the deep feeling which there is amongst the people of the 26 Counties would he not concede that a debate is necessary in order to inform and guide public opinion in this part of the country?
I very strongly and very sincerely counselled forbearance from insistence on a debate at this stage. As I indicated last week, if circumstances change, especially if circumstances change after next week-end, then consideration could be given as to whether or not we should hold a debate. I have instructed the Parliamentary Secretary to suggest to the Opposition that the Adjournment Debate, as often happens, might be on the Taoiseach's Estimate, when this matter could be raised.
Last week when the Taoiseach rejected the suggestion of an all-party committee he undertook to keep the Opposition informed on the changing situation in the North of Ireland, but except from my friends in the Press, radio and television I have received no communication from the Government on the matter since.
That was a matter of only five days ago. As the Deputy is aware, I have been kept fairly busy since. I have no desire at all to with-hold information from leaders of the two Opposition parties. Later on this week I shall ask them to come and see me and we can have a discussion on the matter.
Five days is a long time.
The Taoiseach has indicated to the House that it might be necessary to have a debate after next week. In order that passions might not be inflamed if the situation were to get worse over the weekend, it would be a good thing for people in the 26-Counties if we could appear to show a united front and inform and guide public opinion, because the people are confused and bewildered. Goodness only knows how they may react to the situation we all hope will not occur over the week-end.
We had a protracted and useful debate earlier on when the views of all parties were put forward, and, I think, put forward in an objective and representative way. I do not think the views of the parties have changed in the meantime.
The Taoiseach and all his Ministers, particularly the Minister for External Affairs, have recognised that the situation has changed somewhat. In my view it has changed by reason of the change of Government in Great Britain. I do not expect the Taoiseach to comment on that, but it has changed dramatically. The evidence of that is the visit of the Minister for External Affairs to the Falls Road yesterday and his reactions as expressed last night on television and on radio.
Does the Taoiseach agree that, while he has not closed the door on a debate, he has suggested in his first reply that there may be reactions in the south arising from events in the north? Does the Taoiseach agree that the situation warrants a debate and that by being completely dogmatic in refusing to have a debate it amounts to a vote of no confidence in the competence of this House to discuss the issue at this time?
I am not suggesting that at all. I have every confidence in this Parliament discussing this matter in an adequate and objective way but I would suggest—and I am serious in this—that even a most objective discussion could well cause some inflammation of the situation. I sincerely believe that, especially next weekend with 12th and 13th July coming up.
One final question: is it not ludicrous that today the British Parliament are discussing the affairs of the North? We have a far greater interest in the people in the Six Counties than the people of Great Britain. Stormont is also discussing them today but they have a vital interest also. They discussed it last week and I am sure it will come up in Stormont this week——
They have adjourned until October.
Is it not ludicrous that an Irish Parliament which purports, according to the Constitution, to have responsibility for the whole 32 Counties should not be allowed to discuss this? May I, again, say, with respect to the Taoiseach, that he represents a certain number of people in this country——
We cannot have a debate on these questions now.
There is also a point of view to be represented in this House through the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party. The Taoiseach himself has admitted——
And the two Fianna Fáil Parties.
——that this side of the House——
We cannot have a debate on these matters at this stage.
I can give the Taoiseach a guarantee on my part that if there is a debate this week we will approach this situation in the same responsible manner——
(Interruptions.)
We cannot have a speech on these matters at this stage.
Earlier the Taoiseach suggested there might be a debate before we adjourned.
I said I would be willing to give that matter consideration.
I am calling the Order of Business.
The Taoiseach has two parties and that is what is frightening him.
(Interruptions.)