asked the Minister for Finance what statutory authority the Department of Finance has to give written instructions to the Irish Red Cross Society about the disposal of funds furnished to it by the Department.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Use of Public Funds.
10.
Statutory authority is contained in section 2 of the Red Cross Act, 1938 which provides that:
the Minister for Finance may, out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas, afford assistance to the Society by way of grant or loan on such terms and conditions as he shall think proper.
Can the Minister say whether in this case any limitation is imposed by that Act, or otherwise, which would prevent a Minister from instructing the Irish Red Cross to use funds in a manner inappropriate for such a body?
I have given the Deputy the statutory authority which he requested. If he wants to have further information on the statutory provisions I suggest he either looks at the Act or puts down another question.
What I want to ask the Minister about this is whether, in fact, the Red Cross Act, in fairness to them, does not contain a statement as to the functions of the Irish Red Cross Society, a provision by which these functions are limited, and does the authority which the Minister has mentioned in any way override these functions of the Irish Red Cross Society or entitle the Minister to tell them to do things which they are not entitled to do under the provisions of this Act?
The Deputy is getting into another area altogether. He is basing his question on certain suppositions. The question he asked has been answered by me.
11.
asked the Minister for Finance whether the inquiries conducted by officials of the Department of Finance prior to 14th May last into the possible use of public funds for the illegal purchase of arms included an inquiry to the principal private secretary to the Minister who had control over the issue of sums from the Northern Relief Fund; if so, what these inquiries elicited; and, if not, how these officials were able to assure the Taoiseach that no public funds had been used for arms purchases.
The assurance given to the Taoiseach that no public funds had been used for arms purchases followed discussions with the official described in the question and an examination of the relevant departmental papers. These papers give no indication that the Northern Ireland Relief Expenditure (Grant-in-Aid) had been used to purchase arms. The payees listed in the papers were reputable persons and bodies.
I should add that the official described in the question had no control over the issue of sums from the grant-in-aid.
Would the Minister explain how he can reconcile that answer with the information given us during the course of the trial?
Would the Deputy elaborate on this question?
It is clear from what was stated in evidence during the course of the trial that this money was given to the Red Cross with written instructions to transfer it into a bank account in the names of a number of people whose names were, in fact, false. How could the Taoiseach give an assurance of a negative character that no money came or could have come from such a source for arms purchase? What the Minister has said is that there was no evidence that the money was used for arms purchase but the question to which the Taoiseach replied was one to which he replied in terms of saying that it could not have come from such a source. How could the Taoiseach have given such an assurance in the light of what the Minister has just said?
Because that was what the Taoiseach was told by the officials from whom he made inquiries.
What steps have been taken in the light of that misinformation to deal with those officials?
It is not misinformation. I suggest to the Deputy that there will be a much more suitable opportunity other than at Question Time for discussing these matters in more detail very shortly.
I should like to know how it was not misinformation to tell the Taoiseach that money could not have come from this source when, in fact, it had come from this source?
Because it was not misinformation. The Deputy must realise that to describe things as misinformation may be very misleading. There can be a great number of circumstances surrounding a particular transaction and if one wants to know precisely what the situation was one has to know all those circumstances and Question Time is not the appropriate vehicle for determining them.
What is the appropriate vehicle? Surely this is the purpose of Question Time?
Would the Minister not agree that the assurance given by the Taoiseach which he apparently received from these officials was one which was misinformed because if he was told that money could not have come from that source that has been proved to be misinformation?
No, I would not so agree.
How would the Minister so describe it?
I have told the Deputy. I had hoped he would pay some attention but he did not. He is more interested in something else.
(Interruptions.)
I am calling Question No. 12.