Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 15 Dec 1970

Vol. 250 No. 7

Transport Bill, 1970: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. Tunney

It is not my intention to add to any great extent to that which I have already said. I should, before concluding, however, like to say that in common with other speakers I am not happy with the situation where CIE are looking for £5½ million, where in the city of Dublin they carried 7,000,000 fewer passengers, even though the number of double-decker buses they had last year has been increased. This is a situation which cannot be allowed to continue.

It is a rather sad development that former arteries of transportation such as rivers, canals and railways, are hindering the solution of the Dublin traffic problem. A canal and a railway, both of which contributed much to Dublin transport in their day are now retarding normal development. In so far as CIE are the inheritors of these canals and railways, there is an obligation on them to exploit as far as possible these two means of transport. I know that in times of conservation it may be regarded as sacrilege for me to say that I would not be opposed to the suggestion that the Royal Canal, up to a point beyond Binn's Bridge, should be closed and that, instead of the canal, we would have there a roadway which would help service the north city and, in the future, to service the expanding areas around Castleknock and Blanchardstown.

I would suggest, too, to CIE, that the cost of providing on the existing railway there a passenger service for people travelling in from Phibsboro, Cabra, Ballymum and out to Ashtown and Blanchardstown would not be very great and would help very much towards relieving the road congestion problem on the north side of the city.

Minister for Transport and Power (Mr. B. Lenihan)

I should like to thank the House for a very constructive debate on this Bill which at times was very wide ranging and raised many matters which are not directly related to the Bill itself.

The Bill is a quite straightforward one. It is to increase the annual grant for the current year to CIE, in addition to the grant of £2.65 million to add £2.98 million as subsidy for the current year. Side by side with this I mentioned in my opening speech that we have now initiated a very close examination of the whole structure of CIE and in particular of the railway side of CIE in conjunction with independent consultants. These consultants were appointed during the debate last week. They are McKinseys Ltd., one of the leading firms of international consultants in the world who have already given us very valuable advice on the organisation and management structure of the ESB which we have implemented in the past six months and which has been greeted with satisfaction all round within the ESB. One of the problems there was to devise a management structure on which responsibility would properly devolve.

Dr. O'Donovan

Were they not employed by Deviin also? Are they permanent pensioners of the Government?

Mr. B. Lenihan

I am trying to be constructive.

Dr. O'Donovan

So am I but I do not like to see a firm of consultants becoming permanent pensioners of the Government.

Mr. B. Lenihan

They also examined our cross-Channel freight services—British Railways, B & I and CIE. The recommendations they have made in that regard including sharing of vessels and general rationalisation of facilities on both sides of the Irish Sea have already been adopted by British Rail and the B & I with a consequent substantial saving on the capital and the current side to the Irish taxpayer.

Dr. O'Connell

Have they set up in Dublin?

Mr. B. Lenihan

I decided that a firm of this kind that had knowledge of the Irish Sea and of the various State-sponsored bodies under my aegis would be an appropriate body to embark on this type of investigation in regard to CIE as well.

Dr. O'Donovan

They have received a very expensive education.

Mr. B. Lenihan

They have already done similar studies in regard to the British railway system and in regard to European railway systems.

Dr. O'Connell

And they are employed by the Department of Health?

Mr. J. Lenehan

Deputy Dr. O'Donovan was a financial expert and he made the country bankrupt when he was a Parliamentary Secretary.

Dr. O'Donovan

I did not cost that much.

Mr. B. Lenihan

There is to be an urgent and immediate study of the whole railway structure. I hope to have the result inside the next three months with a view to assessing precisely what we will do in regard to the railways in the coming years. It will include an investigation into the operations of CIE as a whole.

Some suggestions were made during the debate as to what should be done in this regard. I should like to clear the air with regard to one or two matters about this aspect. As far as the operations of CIE are concerned I can quote from the very latest figures which show that all the operations of CIE, other than the railway system, are commercially profitable operations. This must be emphasised and it cannot be emphasised enough in order to put the record right. Although this has been stated by me on several occasions already, obviously there was wrong information in the minds of some Deputies about this. I will just quote the very latest figures, which are for 1969-70. The situation is that the Dublin city road passenger service showed a surplus of £61,000 in 1969-70. The provincial road passenger service showed a profit of £633,000. The tours and private hire aspect showed a profit of £133,000 and the road freight section showed a profit of £84,000. The hotels and catering end showed a profit of £193,000 and the railways showed a loss of £4,212,000 in the same year.

Mr. T. O'Donnell

Is this for the current year?

Mr. B. Lenihan

For 1969-70. I will not go through the figures for 1968-69. Suffice it to say that the very same pattern is evident there.

Dr. O'Donovan

Will the Minister tell us what he knows about 1970-71 up to the present?

Mr. B. Lenihan

That is another day's work. Suffice it to say that this has been the pattern for some years and it was pretty well duplicated in 1968-69. I have no reason to believe that a similar pattern will not emerge in 1970-71. The canals showed a loss of £95,000 in the current year. In regard to the canals we are at present discussing with the Office of Public Works the question of absorbing the canal system into the overall Shannon navigation system operated by the Office of Public Works as a service to the community, to maintain the canals as a tourist amenity and as an attraction for boating and holidays. It is an undoubted attraction and this obtains particularly with regard to the Grand Canal, which is the sole link to the east coast from the Shannon waterway system. It is my view that the Grand Canal must be retained—CIE are under statutory obligation to maintain it at present—and while I do not see any great future for it as a commercial waterway I do see a tremendous future for it as a tourist amenity.

Dr. O'Connell

The complaint of people who boat on the canal is that there are no petrol stations on the canal and this is a source of irritation to them.

Mr. B. Lenihan

As long as this is in the hands of a commercial carrier such as CIE I do not see that it can be developed in that way. What we propose to do is to enable the Office of Public Works—and this will require legislation—to assume control of the Grand Canal and the canal system generally along with the development of the Shannon which they are doing at the moment in conjunction with Bord Fáilte supplying buoys, better navigational aids, signs and so forth.

The net problem of the railways remains. Many ideas were advanced in the debate as lo what should be done: whether the other component parts which were showing a profit should be established as independent companies, whether the railway system should be isolated and given a definite subsidy by the House, whether it would be in the interest of the community to retain a rail system as a social service.

Dr. O'Connell

Perhaps ClE's property in the middle of town, at Westland Row, could be developed commercially by CIE as office blocks?

Mr. B. Lenihan

That is a suggestion I will bring to their notice.

Mr. T. O'Donnell

In regard to treating the railways in isolation is that not what we will be doing if we enter the EEC under their common transport policy?

Mr. B. Lenihan

Yes, exactly. That is true. We are moving in that direction.

Mr. T. O'Donnell

I welcome this approach. This is in preparation for our probable entry into EEC when we will have to do this.

Mr. B. Lenihan

I agree with Deputy O'Donnell, it is in line with the common transport policy of EEC which is in course of being drawn up.

Mr. T. O'Donnell

You will not be allowed the blanket type subsidy, as you are giving at present to transport, in the EEC.

Mr. B. Lenihan

That is right. If the other aspects of ClE's activities, the bus services, the tour services, the hotel services and the road freight services were established as independent commercial companies, I have no doubt they would continue to make money. However, I want to emphasise that there are savings involved under the present system, whereby you have a single management structure, a single personnel department, etc., so that to that extent there is a saving under the present system. You might find the railways system being still further burdened by being isolated in that way. That is one of the problems involved.

That is the type of investigation towards which I have directed the minds of the consultants. They will come up with the options which would be open to us and then we can have a full debate here. It is a matter which requires a full debate. Leaving aside the commercial operations of CIE, we have to consider the pros and cons of maintaining the railway system in the community interest and decide whether it is good or bad for the community to maintain a rail system. That is the type of debate we should have. As far as I am concerned I think we must continue to maintain the railway system, having regard to the road congestion problem. It is necessary, in the long run, to have an alternative method of transport if only because of the overall, social cost saving of congestion of roads, time wasted on roads, and the possible massive investment required on roads if railways were to be abandoned. Many of these factors will have to be taken into account in order to come to a proper decision on that aspect but I should like to see it isolated and displayed fully for the problem that it is and the community have to pay.

Mr. T. O'Donnell

I would agree with that.

Mr. B. Lenihan

Deputy O'Connell and Deputy O'Donnell raised a number of points in detail which I propose to have investigated and I will correspond with them. I think the matters could be better dealt with in that way.

Dr. O'Connell

Can the Minister say if there is any hope of reopening the Harcourt Street line, and can he also tell us about the inquiry into the suburban stations? There was no report on those.

Mr. B. Lenihan

No, there was no report on the suburban stations but an investigation is still proceeding into the feasibility of further commuter services. Ballyfermot is one area which is being investigated. In regard to the Harcourt Street line, that is not practicable now.

Dr. O'Connell

The Minister does admit that they made a diabolical error?

Mr. B. Lenihan

Well, I do not admit that. In the context of the time it was the right decision. Even if the line were reinstated it possibly would not be in the best location. Other living areas in the city have developed at a greater rate, including Ballyfermot, than the area formerly served by the Harcourt Street line. The view of CIE is that even if the Harcourt Street line was reinstated it would not make money because it is not in a growth area in regard to population or business potential.

Dr. O'Connell

They are not admitting their mistake.

Mr. B. Lenihan

CIE have been active in establishing peripheral bus routes during the past 12 months. A new peripheral bus route between Raheny and Finglas West in Dublin's northern suburbs linking up Coolock, Santry, Ballymum and Finglas and serving Raheny, Edenmore Road, Greencastle Road, Oscar Traynor Road, Coolock Lane, Santry Avenue, Ballymum Road, Ballymum Avenue, Grove Road, Jamestown Road, Finglas and Kildonan Road is under investigation by CIE.

Dr. O'Connell

What about the south side?

Mr. B. Lenihan

A peripheral bus service on route 17, Dolphin's Barn and Blackrock, was introduced this year and on route 18, Ballyfermot and Sandymount Green. These new peripheral routes are proving very successful and CIE are doing everything they can to increase this sort of business because it is obviously desirable to have these routes between shopping centres, housing estates and working areas out in the periphery instead of bringing buses through the centre of the city. The idea is to diminish centre city bus traffic as far as possible. A number of steps have been taken to remove terminal points from within the city centre area.

Dr. O'Connell

Is this not in contradiction of the Minister for Local Government's suggestion that we have a crosstown service?

Mr. B. Lenihan

There must be a certain amount, but it should be diminished as far as possible to remove congestion. I think the two are compatible.

I agree with Deputy O'Connell that working on the buses is very tough work and it can prove a great strain on a person's nerves.

Dr. O'Connell

Would the Minister recommend to CIE that they have longer periods of relief time and longer periods of rest?

Mr. B. Lenihan

I think the Deputy will agree that that is a matter which the men can negotiate with CIE themselves.

I shall take up in correspondence the points of detail mentioned by Deputy O'Connell and Deputy O'Donnell in their speeches.

Deputy Cooney referred to private bus operators. CIE have no function in regard to whether a licence is given to a private bus operator or not; that is a matter for me. I consider what CIE have to say about the matter but I do not follow ClE's line in every respect. I welcome private bus operators and I am looking at ways and means of liberalising further in that direction, as we are doing on the road freight side under the Road Transport Bill currently before the House. Competition is welcome and I am certain CIE will face it both on the road freight side and on the bus passenger side.

Complaints have been made about increases in fares and it is a fact of life that fares have risen in the past six months. I have made comparisons with cities in Britain, Europe and America and substantial increases have taken place which put their fares ahead of ours. Public transport systems in every city in the world are finding it difficult to make themselves pay. The pattern of reductions in numbers of passengers on the Dublin city services is paralleled in every city in the world. It is primarily a reflection of improved standards of living and more private motoring rather than increases in fares.

The question of a contract for carriages being placed by CIE with an outside company has also been mentioned. This matter has not yet been finalised and I am glad to say that the CIE management and the trade unions concerned are making real progress in their talks about having finishing work in relation to that contract executed in the Inchicore Works. I want to thank the trade unions for their co-operation in this matter.

The question of having a committee system of the Oireachtas on the lines of the Public Accounts Committee has been mentioned and I am in favour of it. The Minister for Finance is investigating the implications of this at the moment. This recommendation was made in the Devlin Report and I am fully in favour of it. I have discussed the matter with various executives of State bodies and members of the boards of State bodies. Many of these people felt there was a lack of information about what they were doing and about what they were not doing, what sort of policy line they were working on and what was the policy thinking behind decisions made by them. They felt there was a lack of information and liaison between themselves, public representatives and the public generally and apart from the interests of the House in inquiring into their activities in the interests of taxpayers. They welcomed the idea, from the point of view of their own image and standing vis-à-vis this House and the public, of coming before such a committee.

Dr. O'Connell

It now needs the approval and sanction of the Taoiseach and we shall have it.

Mr. B. Lenihan

The Minister for Finance is going through the Devlin Report point by point. He has set up a separate administrative structure in the Department of Finance to deal with personnel and human relations. This section has now been separated from the part of the Department of Finance concerned with budgetary matters and economic development. The main recommendation in the Devlin Report was that a separate department be established on the administration side. A further development is that State-sponsored bodies should be brought within the ambit of committee control, as Departments are at the moment, under the Committee of Public Accounts.

Dr. O'Donovan

It is not that easy.

Mr. B. Lenihan

It is not that easy but I know the Minister for Finance is investigating the idea fully and the Government will be making a decision on this matter in the next few months.

I think that is all that needs to be said on this debate. We shall have an opportunity of going into this matter in far greater depth in the Estimate debate in the new year. As I said in my opening speech, this is an ad hoc measure to deal with an immediate problem. By the time the Estimate debate comes around we should have the preliminary report on the rail system, which I mentioned. I look forward to having a comprehensive debate on the whole transport situation, apart from the immediate matter of dealing with the rail side of CIE, on the Estimates debate in the new year.

Mr. T. O'Donnell

In relation to the investigation, may I suggest that it might be a good idea to have a cost benefit study made in order to assess the social contribution of the railways to the economy?

Mr. B. Lenihan

That is part of the investigation. I agree with the Deputy it is a very important matter to have that type of analysis made in order to assess the value one can put on the preservation of the railways. It is on the social side that the prime reason for maintaining the rail system exists, There is no question about that.

Question put and agreed to.