Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 2 Feb 1971

Vol. 251 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote 43: Defence (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1971, for salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Defence, including certain services administered by that Office; for the pay and expenses of the Defence Forces and for payment of a grant-in-aid.

—(Minister for Defence.)

Mr. Tully

First of all, I should like to say to the Minister for Defence how glad I am that he has at last decided to do something which people like myself have been asking successive Ministers for Defence to do for many years. He has decided to scrap the existing uniforms and to replace them with uniforms which soldiers and FCA men can be proud to wear. The only regret I have is that I have been told by somebody who should know that because some particular manufacturer who has been manufacturing the bullswool for years has so much of it made that the unfortunate soldiers will have to continue going around like men from Mars for many years before the present supply is completely used. I suggest to the Minister that he might get the two fellows who cut off the buttons from 5,000 new uniforms and burned them to burn the whole damn lot and he would be doing another good turn to the Defence Forces.

I think it is ridiculous that anybody should suggest that this outmoded material should continue to be used for uniforms. Perhaps I have been more critical than anybody else about it but, having worn it during working hours for almost six years during the Emergency, I learned a great deal about it. Many other people were in the same position. It is ridiculous that in 1970 and in 1971, and possibly up to 1975, soldiers are expected to continue to wear it. I appeal to the Minister that whatever he does with this material— let him put potatoes in it if he likes— he should not ask soldiers to continue to wear these potato sacks. The FCA uniforms were out of this world.

I hope the design will also be changed. We should get away from the blouses and pants worn by the FCA. FCA men had to go round, particularly if they were tall, like Indians wearing saris, with the centre of their torsos visible. These matters are purely elementary. Can the Minister imagine any young fellow—most of them come out of good homes—who takes a pride in his appearance and in dressing up after duty hours, finding himself wrapped in this Army or FCA material which he is forced to wear, a dirty and uncomfortable thing which could not be called dress by any stretch of the imagination? How could this encourage any young man to join the Defence Forces?

On reflection, I might have known that Deputy Clinton was criticising the uniform rather than the people who wear them. If he says that is what he meant I am prepared to accept it. To be fair, he has not criticised our Defence Forces in that way but if you look at the type of material with which our soldiers have been clothed during the years and then at the spic and span appearance of the soldiers who appear on advertisements it is difficult to identify the two groups as the same young men. I appeal again to the Minister to do something about the uniforms.

In regard to Army boots, I have been told they are regulation type boots which are issued not only in this country but to other defence forces. They are of bad design and anybody who has had to march in them as soldiers have to do and as many of us had to do during the Emergency, 30, 40 or 50 miles in a period of 24 hours, will understand this. Comfortable footwear should be provided and if the Minister wants hard-wearing boots for slogging in certain conditions, he can provide them but not as regulation kit. The supply of a certain type of fatigue dress is a good idea. It will mean that soldiers will not have to wear the same type of outfit cleaning up around the barrack square and on parade.

I am delighted Deputy Coughlan and Deputy Clinton visited our barracks. While they did not expect the red carpet, Deputy Coughlan said he was perfectly satisfied with the reception he got. It is well that public representatives should see for themselves the conditions in our Army barracks. The Minister went to Cyprus and is satisfied our troops there are being treated no worse than other troops there. A few years ago, I complained that our troops were under canvas in snow while other troops were in wooden and concrete huts. This situation appears to have changed considerably.

Being a Limerick man, Deputy Coughlan was naturally interested in the type of ham and bacon issued to the troops. The only complaint about food one hears now from soldiers is that the bacon would seem to be well down the alphabet so far as grade is concerned. This may be due to how it is cooked but I do not think so. While there might be an excuse for the bacon or ham there is certainly no excuse for inferior potatoes. Cooking in the Army has improved immensely. The same can be said about the way the food is served.

Let me re-echo what has been urged in relation to central heating. It is too bad that conditions have not improved in, for instance, the old huts in Gormanston and that they are still depending for heat on the stove in the middle of the floor. Remarks were made about cubicles in places such as Gormanston where, at best there is a division in the middle so that the hut that held 24 men now has two compartments each holding 12 men. Such conditions are far from the type of cubicles we have been hearing about. The Department should provide a decent type of cubicle for the serving soldier and the heating will have to be improved in Gormanston if that camp is to continue in use.

The toilet and washroom facilities are unsatisfactory. In all weather, the men have to go a couple of hundred yards in the open to some very out-of-the-way place either for washing or toilet purposes. Hot water is provided but it is of very little use in the circumstances because, whether it is snowing or freezing, day or night, the men have to walk from the barracks out to these places. Why can something not be done about this matter? When the refugees were in Gormanston an effort was made to give them a certain amount of privacy but, despite that, no effort was made to improve the toilet facilities: it was a golden opportunity for the soldiers.

I do not know if another influx from the North is expected. The huts— which were an improvement on what the soldiers were using—are reserved: they were FCA huts. Every effort should be made to put the soldiers in there, where they might be a little more comfortable than they are at present— at least for the winter.

How much did the whole project cost? Was everything run as it should have been run? Does the Minister know what happened down there? Was there a check on items such as blankets, and so on, in Gormanston before the arrival of the refugees and after their departure? Like everybody else, I trust another problem will not arise in the North but, if it should arise, would the Minister make sure that Gormanston Camp will not be used ever again as a refugee camp. It is unsuitable for this purpose. To make matters worse, it is near the Border.

We had more than our share of people who had not to come but who, for instance, came because the camp was only an hour's run in a car, people one would not like to see coming back again. I am not referring to those who had to come. There were a lot of very decent people who had to come and who tried to get back to the North, or elsewhere, as quickly as they could. However, there were some highly undesirable people who certainly should not have been allowed in. I hope there will not be another crisis in the North but, if there is, there should be a stricter check on the people who are accepted as refugees. When a lot of people come at the one time it is not easy to check but far too many people came who had a wonderful holiday at the expense of this State and of the people in the area—and of the serving soldiers who will not forget for a long time what had to be done in the way of cleaning and clearing out after those undesirable people left the camp.

Somebody mentioned officers' batmen. I hold that able-bodied people should look after themselves and that people should be responsible for their children and look after them rather than expect our soldiers to do menial work for them. Our soldiers in Gormanston Camp had to go with a four-pronged fork to clean some of the huts after some people had left. I am not talking about the genuine refugee. I am talking about some people who should have stayed where they were but who came to have a good time at the expense of this State and who went from the camp to the hairdresser, to the local supermarket, to the pictures, in taxis at the expense of this State. That is wrong and should not be allowed.

If there is another crisis in the North we must ensure that the refugees are sent to a camp or to buildings suitable for them and, next, there should be a stricter check on admissions. Maybe not immediately but, over a short period, it should be possible for the Garda to find out who is who.

I was surprised at the reply I received from the Minister about the strength of the Defence Forces. My question was loosely worded and he took advantage of that fact. He included, I suppose, our Navy, the FCA and everybody else. This week, I hope to get the exact number of people in the permanent Defence Force—the normal Army personnel—in reply to a parliamentary question. I should like to know the ratio of officers to NCOs and the lower ranks. While a small number have been commissioned from the NCO and Private ranks, I fear the number of NCOs is too low. An experienced Army man is of more value in an emergency than a highly-educated young man who gets a commission in a few months and has no idea of Army life. There should be a cadre of fairly experienced officers at all times in the Army. Whatever about gibes about a Chinese Army—more officers than men—it is important to have a high number of officers and senior NCOs because they are the people on whom the Army can be built.

For years, some of us here have been arguing that our Defence Forces should be used to educate and train the young men who join. It is unfair that young men leaving the Army should have very little training for any civilian job. To some extent, this has been changed but I am not satisfied that enough is being done. I ask the Minister to redouble his efforts to try to ensure that all the training that can possibly be given is given to soldiers to prepare them for their return to civilian life. Because of the present retiring age, many men leave the Army while they are still young. Therefore, it is important that these people are trained for some other job. Admittedly, some of them have been receiving an education that, otherwise, they would not have been in a position to receive, but it is all important that they be prepared to return to civilian life.

The FCA have been doing an excellent job in protecting certain installations, particularly during the past 12 months, but what they are doing is not appreciated. They are entitled to far more compensation than they are receiving. There should be an increase in the rate of compensation paid to members of the FCA while they are serving. After all, it is mainly at weekends and at night that they carry out this type of work. It is possible to develop the FCA into a very important section of the Army, but this can only be done if an effort is made to ensure that only those who are interested in serving the country are recruited. It is ridiculous that we still have the old system whereby anybody who happens to walk into a slua hall can become a member. This is particularly noticeable coming towards summer time. Some people consider that it is quite in order for them to appear at that time, get into uniform, go away on holiday, as it were, for a few weeks and then disappear. This happens time and again while the dedicated men who have been in the FCA for years and who show up for training as well as for camping, are treated as if they were not very important. There should be greater consideration for those who are serious in their approach to the FCA. There are some such people in practically every area but they are not being given enough encouragement.

As well as appealing to public representatives, I would appeal to firms who are operating in the various areas to give encouragement to both the FCA and the Army by providing trophies for competitions. This would be one way of encouraging young men to remain in the Defence Forces.

Up to a few years ago, the various Army sporting teams were very popular in the country. Practically every unit had their own football or hurling team and they had also athletic teams in the various sports. However, these activities seem to have diminished. I would suggest a return to competitions, first in the Army and, through the Army to those outside it. Such competitions would prove a real incentive to men in the Forces and would eliminate boredom.

Reference has been made to Army housing. I do not know very much about what are referred to as married quarters attached to barracks. However, the Army are not accepting enough responsibility for soldiers in the various areas who require housing.

Mr. Malone

Hear, hear.

Mr. Tully

An effort should be made by the Department of Defence to encourage local authorities to build houses that could be rented to soldiers; also, low interest loans should be made available to soldiers who wish to build their own houses. The local authority of which I am a member cater to a large extent for soldiers. If a soldier from the nearby Gormanston Camp applies for a house, every effort is made to ensure that he is provided with one. The result is that there are quite a number of soldiers in the area. Naturally, a civilian who may be seeking the same house but who does not succeed in getting it, will ask why cannot the Army look after the soldier. I suggest the Army could do so and one of the best ways of doing this would be by providing low interest loans. Soldiers are no longer sent from one area to another at frequent intervals. Nowadays they are usually left with the same unit. Every effort should be made to ensure that they are housed properly.

I am aware that overholding in the city is causing a lot of trouble but to where can the ex-soldier be expected to go? He cannot obtain a house outside and neither can he bring his wife and family to the side of the road. While it is tough luck for the soldier awaiting a house, it would be much tougher luck if a man who had spent a lifetime in the Army were forced to leave his house to somebody else who, perhaps, had been in the Army for only a short time. I am sure that the Minister has the initiative to make the changes that are necessary.

I am glad that pensions have been improved and that gratuities are now given to people who, formerly, would not have been entitled to them. These improvements were many years overdue. I regret, however, that there are so many soldiers who have left the Army during the past few years and who should have qualified both for the increased pension and for the gratuity but who were not so entitled because these were not brought into operation until 1970. I may be told that, no matter what date one picks, somebody will be aggrieved, that if one goes back one year, there will be somebody who will have been out for a year and a day and so on. However, an effort should be made by the Minister for Defence, working in conjunction with the Minister for Finance, to try to ensure that there is parity between soldiers retiring now and those who retired in the past. The Minister will admit it is unfair that a man having 35 years' service but who retired ten or 15 years ago has only a fraction of the pension that would be paid to a man retiring now after 21 years' service. I know of a particular case where the man in question found this to be so.

Another matter that has caused a lot of dissatisfaction on the part of the serving soldier down through the years has been the question of the number of years he would be serving over 21 for which he got only a shilling a year. That has been changed but again it applies only to those who retired from 1970 on. Even in this House we have oldtimers on the staff who are in receipt of a very small pension.

During the last couple of months I have had correspondence with the Minister about an old place in County Kildare—the Deputy opposite me is probably aware of this—which the Rehabilitation Institute are looking for. I predicted, when I raised the matter first, that while it was being held up by the Department of Defence as a bargain against the Naas Urban District Council, if something was not done quickly about that old building it would be damaged by vandals and it would cost a fortune to repair. At the time the Minister did not think it important and it was left until vandalism occurred and the building was badly damaged. I am glad the Minister has agreed during the last fortnight that the transfer should take place without any further delay. It is a pity it was not dealt with more quickly.

Can the Minister say what kind of liaison there is between the military intelligence and the police intelligence? During the Arms Trial statements were made that one section were doing something and the others did not know what was happening. It may be that the Minister cannot say but I should be glad if he could say what exactly is happening. Have we got people at the present time who are instructed to go on spying missions somewhere else? It is wrong if they are and I would ask that this practice should not be allowed to continue. It is ridiculous in a country as small as ours that a situation like that should be building up. Is the Minister prepared to say to whom the Army intelligence are responsible? Are they responsible to him, to somebody under him or are they responsible to anybody at all? Are they just freelance people who can do anything they like and come out afterwards and write books about it?

Our people who are serving in Cyprus and the Middle East are doing a great job of which we are all proud, but would the Minister not agree that Ireland, and I made this point last year, has done more than her fair share. Apparently the United Nations are not very enthusiastic about paying the amount due and eventually payment is made, very much in arrears, after, to use the Minister's own words, "pressure has been put on the United Nations to have payment made".

We were in a peculiar position last year because there was a great deal of unrest here and people were predicting that at any time an armed uprising might take place and yet the cream of our Army were in Cyprus. They are now guarding certain important installations and the FCA, the members of which in nearly every case work for their living, are relieving soldiers at weekends and at nights in order to allow them some time off because there are not enough to do the job, although a considerable number of our Defence Forces are in Cyprus. I am not opposed to the idea that we play our part in peace-keeping throughout the world but I am opposed to the idea that anyone should get the impression that there is a more important place for Irish soldiers than in Ireland. If there is trouble in this country the place for Irish soldiers is here.

I was critical last year, and I am again now, about the type of equipment our soldiers are being supplied with and particularly the type of weapons. I do not know whether the former Minister for Defence had his tongue in his cheek when he ordered that 500 .300 rifles be sent to Dundalk without any ammunition. They might be useful if as some people, especially Americans, think, we fight with shillelaghs, but certainly they would not be much use either for defence or attack. In 1971 we should have modern weapons and our men should be trained to use them.

It is ridiculous for members of the FCA to be issued with weapons, whether old-fashioned or modern, without being given any means of protecting them. If someone with a catapult stops a young fellow bringing his rifle home at night, he can take the rifle from him because he has no means of defending himself. The rifles should be kept safely in a centre overnight or the people who are issued with them should be given something to defend themselves with. It is not good enough to say to someone: "Here is a rifle, you can bring it home, but you cannot have anything to fire out of it." It may be feared if ammunition were issued they might do damage with it, but if they cannot be trusted with ammunition they should not be in the FCA at all. The present arrangement should be changed because it just is not good enough.

With regard to our Defence Forces generally I was rather disappointed to read the reply to a parliamentary question which stated that despite the tremendous amount of publicity given to the recruiting drive the number who left the Army and the number who joined the Army were almost on a par, that there was no improvement in the numbers in the Army over a period of 12 months. Something should be done, possibly the Minister is doing it now, about the rates of pay and the uniform in order to encourage young men to come into the Army.

I should like to bring to the Minister's notice one or two facts. While PAYE as such does not apply to the Defence Forces, if somebody either through ignorance or for some other reason, does not opt for a voluntary deduction of income tax from his pay, he may find near the end of the financial year that he owes almost as much as he will get in wages and a substantial amount will be deducted from his wages. Why is it not possible for those responsible for deducting income tax to deduct the same amount for the tax year commencing 5th April, 1971, as they deducted on 5th April, 1970? They should start off like that and if additional deductions are necessary because of adjustments it would be easy to rectify that in a couple of weeks. To say that because someone who has signed on for 21 years, and has served two out of his twenty-one years did not pay income tax from April to January he must pay all that tax before the 31st March, is ridiculous.

When a fellow leaves the Army he goes on pension and gets a job outside. He gets three months pre-discharge leave, during which time he is drawing his pay plus his pay from the job as well. If he is married he gets a gratuity which I am sure is looked after by the income tax people before he gets it. He suddenly finds that everyone is looking for income tax. A man who had £23 tax free allowance in the Army finds that under PAYE his tax free allowance is only £11 a week. Out of his Army pension which amounts to £32 a month the Army takes £14 18s tax. I have been trying to unravel this and occasionally I am able to find someone who says, "A mistake has been made, we will adjust it next week." The only way they adjust it is to stop the man another 25s from his wages. He is wondering and I am wondering what system is operated. It should be possible for those responsible for the deduction of tax to say to the Department of Defence or for the Department to say to the people deducting the tax, "Look, this man is leaving now. He is getting £X gratuity, his pension will be so much, he is entitled to a tax free allowance and has drawn this amount up to this date." They could easily straighten out the amount of tax due with his new employer. As the system works at present it seems that the unfortunate ex-soldier is getting the worst of both worlds. This is something which needs attention.

I want to go back to a very hoary old question—that of the people who apply for special allowances. Here there is the old story about whether or not the man was serving during the critical period. I know of a number of people who have been told that they are not entitled to an allowance because they were not in the IRA up to July 1921. When it is checked the people in the Department say: "There is no roll which shows that there was a Unit in that area." Yet it is possible to find a half dozen other people, from the same area, who are drawing pensions and even if this man or woman gives the names of the people with whom he or she served, their rank, the engagements they took part in, it still seems that unless some people are prepared to come along and say they actually were present with him on some operation, and these people are recognised by the Department as having the right to say that, he is ruled out. The thing I consider most ridiculous is the system which I understand still operates whereby the people in the Department write out to certain people and if they do not get a reply they take it that these people are too shy to reply because the applicant is not telling the truth, whereas in many cases the reason they do not reply is that they have been dead for about ten years. This system has been going on for a long time and it does not appear as if there will be any change in it. I hope there will be a change.

Of all the Government Departments —and I contact, as a Member of this House, Departments of State at all levels, I usually do not bother the Minister unless I have to—I regret that the one set of people from whom I find it extremely difficult to get a courteous reply are the people in Coláiste Chaoimhín. I am being quite plain about it. I may get, after many months a pretty short reply. I regret to have to say this because I have great respect for civil servants; in most cases I find they are doing an excellent job. I personally believe that the people in Coláiste Chaoimhín believe that they are a select body and that only a select number of people who were involved with them some time in early days are entitled to make representations or ask questions of them. I want to make it clear that, as far as I am concerned, I consider I have a right and am entitled, as a Member of this House, to make an inquiry from the officials in Coláiste Chaoimhín, either by phone or in writing any time I wish to do so.

I have on one or two occasions stated that if this continued I would raise it in this House by way of question to the Minister. That I propose to do in future because it is just not good enough to wait three or four months and then get a stereotyped reply which says the person is being refused whatever he is looking for because he has not got the necessary information. I had occasion to make an inquiry in regard to 14 documents which I gave to the Minister's predecessor and which were lost for months and months. Eventually the Minister dug them out himself; at least he sent them back to me and said they had been found. This is the sort of thing which should not happen. There are far too many people who would prefer to stick to the regulations as they see them rather than put a little humanity into their jobs.

I am glad that an effort is being made to get new fishery protection vessels. I live along the sea and while I would not recognise one type of vessel from another, from time to time people have pointed out to me foreign trawlers which have been anchored short distances from the shore during bad weather. Apparently they are so satisfied that there is no way of interfering with them that they can come quite close to the shore and stay there. I am sure it is not for the good of their health they come that far down the Irish Sea. It is good to know that an effort is being made to provide something to deal with this problem.

I am glad that full use is being made of the helicopters. Things have come a long way since a Minister stood up in this House and said that the reason why all the helicopters were kept in one place was that it was only possible to operate from a "nest of three". Those were the words he used. Obviously the helicopters have got out of the nest and are now operating all over the country and doing an excellent job. If the Minister has a few pounds to spare he could do worse than to purchase some further helicopters because apart from the rescue and fishery protection services in which they can engage it would be excellent to train some of our young soldiers how to operate them and to operate from them. The helicopter is a coming thing and the Minister might very well consider getting some more now that a helicopter does not get lonely when it is moved away from the other two.

We have, throughout the country, quite a number of people who are doing an excellent job in civil defence. Like the FCA the civil defence service is a much-abused service because there are quite a number of people who are taking part in a very part-time way in civil defence. The result is, in my opinion, that it is not up to the strength which the papers would try to prove that it is. I believe that the actual strength of the civil defence service is much less than it should be. Throughout the country and particularly in my own county there are a number of civil defence officers and many volunteers who are doing a tremendous job trying to educate people to the necessity for having a civil defence service. I would suggest to the Minister that like the FCA if a smaller more select band were trained and treated more generously than they are by way of equipment and everything else it would encourage those services and make them much more effective than they are at present.

The position with regard to the Defence Forces has changed very much in this House. Many times in the past people have been critical of the amount of money being spent on defence. There are those who say that as a Defence Force the Army we have got is not very effective; that is a debatable point, but I always, when speaking on this Estimate, referred to one thing and I make no apology for coming back to it again. During periods of emergency soldiers are respected in every country. Unfortunately, during periods of peace people do not seem to think so much of them. There are instances where people do not encourage soldiers in uniform to attend certain functions in peacetime while in wartime or periods of any type of trouble they are prepared to allow them in free to various functions in this city and elsewhere.

The general public should respect the serving soldier who is doing an excellent job for his country. Army service has something different to offer compared with any other type of employment or any other club. I served during the Emergency with the 18th Infantry Battalion. This battalion was demobilised finally in July, 1946. Each year since then the members of the unit have met annually. Last Friday we had our annual reunion. Men came to that event from all over the country. These men help each other during the year. A sense of comradeship which is not found in any other walk of life is developed in the Defence Forces. Our young men should be encouraged to join the Defence Forces and when they join they should be treated as members of an honoured profession. If we give young men the impression that they are joining such a profession it should not be as difficult to recruit new members into the Defence Forces of this country as it has been over the last few years.

Mr. J. O'Leary

The first point I want to make is that a more intensive campaign to recruit as many young men as possible for the FCA should be undertaken. The FCA could provide a very valuable outlet for the young men of our towns and villages. It could be used as a means of organising the youth of our towns and could help them to develop a national outlook. More accommodation should be provided for the FCA in towns, villages and rural areas. At present in many rural areas we see derelict FCA halls. These halls should be reconstructed and Army officers should be sent into each district to recruit members. More attention should be paid to the provision of good accommodation for FCA members and the Army officers in charge of them. Such accommodation is of vital importance. The Army officers on such work should also be provided with proper housing accommodation.

My second point refers to the provisions of the Army Pensions Acts. The Department of Defence and the social welfare officers interpret the law very strictly when considering applications for special allowances. They put a very stringent interpretation on the provisions governing such allowances. The household circumstances of the applicants are taken into consideration. A more liberal interpretation of the law should be taken. There are many people who would qualify for allowances were it not for the fact that their family circumstances are taken into account. We all know how difficult it is for an unmarried son or daughter to keep a household going and to maintain such an applicant.

The Minister and his Department should provide a scheme of pensions for the widows of IRA veterans. Great hardship is inflicted on such widows, especially where the veteran was in receipt of special allowances or a military service pension before he died. There would be many difficulties in administering such a scheme. The widows of veterans who were in receipt of special allowances or military service pensions should be covered by some scheme. A free transport scheme for widows of IRA veterans should also be provided after the death of the medal holders. The wives of medal holders should also be allowed to travel without their husbands.

To sum up, a more intensive campaign for the recruitment of FCA members should be undertaken. Proper accommodation should be provided for the training of FCA members. Proper housing accommodation should be provided for Army officers in charge of such training. A more liberal interpretation of the law should be taken by the Department of Defence in considering applications for special allowances where there is a family income. There should be a pension scheme for the widows of IRA veterans, particularly in cases where the late husbands were in receipt of an IRA special allowance or a military service pension. I also think the wives of IRA medal holders should be allowed to travel free in cases where husbands cannot travel with them for numerous reasons. If at all possible widows should also get free transport.

Mr. Malone

I do not know whether this is something to be proud of, but I cannot imagine that at present in any State in Europe, if not in the world, a debate on such an important estimate as the Estimate for the Department of Defence would muster such a small attendance of Members. Because of our peace-loving nature we are not likely at any future date to attack somebody, and we are concerned only with maintaining a defence force, and perhaps that seems to reflect a lack of interest in this Department.

I come from what is known as the short grass county but the only place in the county where the grass is short is on The Curragh, due to the neglect of the Department. I will have more to say about that later. It was also known as the county of the brass buttons. Coming from there I hope I will be forgiven if I concentrate my remarks almost entirely on The Curragh. In his opening statement the Minister paid a very well deserved tribute to the men serving both at home and overseas. He referred to the people overseas as ambassadors.

I want to recall a little incident that happened to a friend of mine recently on a visit to Cyprus. He had some Irish money in his pocket and he wanted to change it. He had found extreme difficulty in his travels in changing Irish money and he was always charged very heavily for the exchange. On going into a shop in, I think it was Limassol, in Cyprus, he was told: "Certainly we will change it. Your soldiers have been here. They are doing a wonderful job and we are delighted to assist you." To my mind that was a tremendous tribute to the men out there. It shows that they were very highly thought of even by the traders in the towns when a person from Ireland was accommodated even on a simple matter like that.

A couple of months ago Deputy Clinton and I paid a visit to The Curragh. I should like to thank the Minister for making the arrangements for us. It was said to me afterwards: "Of course, you were only shown what they wanted you to see." I should like to refute that remark because the commanding officer, the officers and men who attended on us that day went out of their way not just to keep to the time-table they had arranged but to show us everything we asked to see. They treated us with every courtesy and gave us every help on our visit. It was a very long and quite a tiresome day, but most interesting and informative. Even though I was born and reared in County Kildare it was my first visit inside the camp although I had passed through it. I had heard a lot of both good and bad about it but I was able to see for myself, at first hand even in one day, much of the work that goes on there and the tremendous amount of good which the commanding officer, the other officers and men are doing on The Curragh.

Of course The Curragh has long been associated with the Army. A few years ago it was impossible to go into County Kildare without meeting many brass buttons, as I said earlier, but they are not to be seen now. Why is this? Is it related to the very fine exposition by Deputy Tully about the uniforms? Is it because of the pay and conditions which prevailed up to very recently and which, indeed, are still not in line with other sectors of the community? We know that The Curragh is not now the training camp for the whole country and that training is done at other centres.

Despite expensive and elaborate recruitment campaigns the numbers joining the Army must be a great disappointment to those in authority and those responsible. Unless some better results are achieved in the not too distant future, many of our Army establishments must fold up. It has been said that at present we have more officers than men and, if this goes on, we will have more civil servants than Army personnel. I am sure this is engaging the attention of those in authority and we hope it will be remedied.

There were recent increases in pay and they were comparatively substantial but they do not seem to have been enough. They are not bringing the people into the Army. The greatest plum a soldier can get at present is a trip to Cyprus. It has been described as a holiday in the sun but, as far as the soldier is concerned, the main thing is the money he gets when he comes back which he wants to spend on his house, to buy furniture, to pay bills and the 101 other things that such a little windfall can be applied to. To my mind that should not be necessary. In this day and age, while we would all welcome a little bit on the side, a few extra pounds here and there, there should not be as much competition as there is in the Army to get a trip to Cyprus.

While I am on that subject, I should like to inquire about the system of selecting men to go to Cyprus. It has been pointed out to me on a number of occasions that the same men seem to go overseas time after time while others, highly suitable, are passed over. Why is this so? There must be some reason for it. I am sure the authorities pick the best men but, nevertheless, those who appear highly suitable to the ordinary layman are never selected. This is, to say the least of it, unfair.

During the visit to The Curragh by Deputy Clinton and myself I had an opportunity of noting with great satisfaction the facilities provided there for the further education of the soldiers. It was even more satisfying to see the numbers availing of the opportunity to further their education. The authorities are to be complimented on this and I hope the facilities will be extended and availed of to the fullest possible extent by the men.

The founding of the Army Apprenticeship School at Naas was one of the best things done by the Army in recent years. I am not in a position to agree with anything Deputy Clinton said about this school. He, apparently, had a great many complaints about it; the accommodation and so forth leave much to be desired. I have heard complaints, but I have had no opportunity of confirming them. We shall have to pay a visit to the Apprentice School at Naas to see for ourselves whether or not these complaints are justified. Irrespective of whether or not the complaints are justified, every year young men are turned out from this school of whom the nation can feel justly proud. This was exemplified in no small measure on the day on which President Nixon visited Kildare. The Army apprentices formed a guard of honour in the town of Naas and there was nothing but the greatest praise for them. They were a credit not only to their officers but to themselves as well.

On completing their course in Naas they go to The Curragh for three years. Their education is put to good use. Deputy Clinton and I saw for ourselves the highly skilled and intricate work they were doing especially in the Corps of Signals. These young men are very much sought after in the private sector. It is a good thing that the nation should train young men to take their place in the private sector. The Army—I am not blaming them in this regard—could not possibly pay these young men the money they can command outside. A great many of them do not finish their three years in The Curragh. They buy themselves out. It is pretty costly but they consider it worthwhile because of the good jobs they can get outside. People in industry are delighted to employ these young men because of their training, their character building and their discipline.

I agree with what Deputy Clinton said about transport. Whatever numbers we have in the Army there seems to be very little means of transporting them. This is something to which the Minister should give very serious attention because transport is not something that can be built up in 24 hours. If a crisis arises anywhere there must be the means of transporting the goods to meet the situation. This is something that is not available in The Curragh, if it is available anywhere in the Army. All the speakers who preceded me have spoken about the housing of our soldiers. I am sure Deputy Power will agree with me that we have a particular problem in this regard in Kildare largely because of over-holders. Kildare local authority have played their part in housing quite a number but it would be virtually impossible to house them all. The State should play a bigger part in this. Generous allowances should be given to the Army itself to build houses. The space is there in The Curragh. The men need the houses. The country needs the men. It is up to us to house them. There is plenty of space. The services are available. The land is tied up by legislation but I think the red tape should be cut and a little bit of Curragh land given to Kildare County Council to enable them to solve this very big problem of housing for Army personnel. The married quarters on The Curragh are very well kept. The accommodation for the single men leaves much to be desired. One sees a turf fire at the end of a dormitory. One man is kept fully occupied piling on turf. It is all very lovely to look at but the men at the other end of the room do not know there is a fire in it. Central heating should be provided. Money spent on central heating would be money well spent. The men will rough it when they are on manoeuvres but they should have a decent modicum of comfort when they are in barracks. They are allowed to have television, which they supply themselves. The whole idea is to get away from the camp when they are off duty. That is understandable in the winter when they have only one turf fire between the whole lot of them. In winter they can collect around this turf fire but if they sit back to play a game of cards or draughts they are away from the heat and the place would freeze the mice. This is something that might be contributing to the drop in recruiting. There was a time when the soldier with a family was always proud to be able to say afterwards that all his sons were in the Army after him. I wonder how many families of soldiers would be able to say that now.

Many improvements have been carried out to the buildings at The Curragh but it would cost a small fortune to bring them up to the necessary standard. Even that amount, if spent now, would save a great deal later on. They have the expertise to do the job. Give them the money to get the materials and they will save the buildings. We saw some buildings so decayed that the only thing to be done with them is to bring in a bulldozer and level them. If the buildings there are not maintained and repaired The Curragh, in time, will fall.

Reference has been made in this debate to the soldiers' food. I have read many letters in the papers about this and I got some letters myself, anonymous and otherwise, in regard to food. When we were at The Curragh we saw food being prepared. Admittedly, it was Friday but the fish we saw being cooked appeared to us to be of the highest quality. Despite the fact that there is no abstinence now they were still having fish and we were assured that since the removal of abstinence the soldiers prefer fish—I suppose that is human nature. While the cooking facilities left much to be desired the food we saw about to be prepared left nothing to be desired. We may have been lucky on this occasion to have been there when the food was about to be prepared; perhaps when it is prepared it is not so good. There is a lot in the cooking.

There is one recent development at The Curragh to which I must refer and which is causing some concern. A number of traders both in The Curragh and in surrounding towns are doing quite good business in The Curragh. Those traders from the outside towns have now been informed that they may not go into The Curragh to collect debts or make deliveries. I am personally aware of two who have been doing business on The Curragh for many years. Some of the people on The Curragh have established credit with these traders who now find they are to be prevented from going in to collect their debts or make deliveries. When one of them recently made an application he was informed that he would be allowed to continue until some time in March and that the business would then be phased out.

That is just not good enough. This particular trader is able to supply goods as cheap and sometimes cheaper than some of the other traders referred to. The soldiers and their families have been circularised and advised to deal with "Welfare", an organisation which, I gather, pays no turnover or wholesale tax. I am speaking from hearsay but if this is true it is the worst form of unfair trading. I appeal to the Minister to examine this problem. If it is regarded as a security risk to have these people going into The Curragh to carry on their business today that risk must have existed for a very long time. Why was it not mentioned up to now? It has never been mentioned before. There is something seriously wrong if this is allowed to happen. I hope the Minister in replying will be able to assure me that he will stop this move and that civilians who have had trading passes up to now will have them restored at the first opportunity and that this crazy idea of phasing them out will be dropped so that business can go on as it did up to now and this will be to the benefit of the personnel on The Curragh.

I shall conclude by referring to the grazing on The Curragh. The Minister was good enough to receive a deputation some time ago from The Curragh Sheep Grazers' Association. They put a number of proposals before him and while some progress has been made the real kernel of the problem has not even been touched—their hope to have new dipping baths for the sheep for the next dipping season on The Curragh. The local authority are making provision for water there for the sheep but there is still the problem of reclamation, of fertilising and the problem of making it a more viable holding—to use a word commonly used in regard to farming nowadays. The problem of touching even one acre on The Curragh involves one in extinguishing grazing rights and so on and is tied up with legislation going back 100 years or more but these are problems to which the Minister gave a very sympathetic hearing. I hope before we come back for the next Defence Estimates these problems will be solved. The association to which I have referred and the Claim Owners' Association which is an equally important body are meeting very soon. I have no doubt that from that meeting will go to the Minister proposals for the necessary improvement and I trust that he will act on them as soon as he receives them.

Another matter to which I should like to refer is the matter of motor-cycle escorts. The old days of ceremony and pomp with horses seems to have gone from every country in the world and we have replaced that here with what I would like to regard as one of the finest bodies of men one can see anywhere in the world. They are a source of pride to all who see them and I would like to pay them tribute and to thank them for adding colour to occasions which otherwise might have been drab. Again I should like to thank the Minister for his co-operation in arranging for Deputy Clinton and myself to visit The Curragh and I hope that if Deputy Clinton is visiting other military establishments I will have the honour and pleasure of attending there with him.

Mr. Power

I should like to compliment the Minister for having, during his short term of office, secured such wonderful improvements in regard to the better pay and conditions which Army personnel now enjoy. I should like to thank him particularly for the interest he has shown in the men. This was exemplified particularly during his recent visit to Cyprus when he spoke to every Irishman there. Friends of mine who are serving there assured me that this was greatly appreciated and it bears out the opinion of the entire Defence Forces that Fianna Fáil are a party who have the interest of the Defence Forces at heart and that the Minister, through his visit and through the improvements he has brought about, is only keeping up the good work of his predecessors.

Perhaps at this stage I should mention a small bone of contention which exists in regard to Cyprus. It concerns senior NCOs and BQMs who up to now had enjoyed a slight privilege over other NCOs in that they had a five year advantage in the upper age limits for visits to Cyprus but the other NCOs have now been brought up to that age limit and the seniors no longer enjoy this privilege. There are not very many involved and I suggest that the upper age limit be extended in the case of the senior NCOs and the BQMSs to a further five years, to 55 years. It might be argued that at that age they would not be able to carry out their duties properly but NCOs in this position would not have very onerous duties; while they may have responsible ones they would not be very onerous ones and they would be well able to carry them out.

Another incentive in this regard is that the lump sum of some £500 for NCOs which would accrue from their visit to Cyprus would be a wonderful asset to men who might be thinking of purchasing their own house and this would be a very fine down-payment for them. One of the reasons I have heard for the non-inclusion of men in this age group is that for medical reasons they might not be able to put up with the climate in Cyprus. These very same men have been on active service near the Border and they have put up with Arctic conditions up there and I am sure a visit to Cyprus would not be a very great burden to them. The Minister should have another look at this matter. Deputy Malone mentioned that the same people seem to go to Cyprus, or the same people seem to be picked, that many have made a number of visits while others have made none and he quibbled over the method of selection. I am sure that within reason the best men are sent and possibly the same reasons could be advanced for the same people representing the Kildare team when they play—that we see the same people appearing on the team year after year.

I would agree with Deputy Malone that it is essential to keep up the numbers in the Defence Forces. While the recent recruiting drive was not too successful it did bear some fruit. It is essential to keep up the numbers because if we have no men we have no Army and men are much more essential than equipment or anything else. At all times nothing should hamper the free flow of recruits into the Defence Forces. There is a tendency to put on a big show and to look for recruits but then Finance becomes worried that the numbers will go over the limit and they cut back. We should not worry if the number exceeds 7,300 or 7,500 because what normally happens is that a young man leaves a street in a village and joins the forces and when he comes home another chap meets him and inquires about conditions and pay and so on and in due course he follows too, that is provided that recruits are being accepted and that there is a free flow of recruiting at all times. If word goes out that recruiting has stopped or that they are no longer anxious to have recruits this will hamper things. The matter would level off if recruiting was allowed to go on unhampered and we would have the required numbers.

Another matter which I have raised with the Minister without success, and which I feel he should consider further, is the question of allowing married men enlist in the Army. At present they may enlist only if they had previous service. Contrary to what Deputy Malone has said, the improved conditions in the Army mean that people are being enticed to leave industry— this has happened in Newbridge which is highly industrialised—and go back into the Army.

Mr. Clinton

Because the industries are starting to rock.

Mr. Power

No. They are rocking around the clock all right, on three shifts. I have been told there are reasons why married men should not enlist but if they were allowed to enlist you would get a better, steadier and a more disciplined and responsible man. I know of a man who enlisted on a Friday, was accepted, and was married the following day. There is a demand for married men to enlist and the Minister should look at the matter again. Another reason why numbers should be kept up is that if the numbers are down people must perform extra duties, which is unfair and demoralising. It is essential to have as full a muster as possible in every unit.

Deputy Malone mentioned traders on The Curragh and the curtailment of their privileges. Only yesterday I visited The Curragh and the OC assured me that this position was much worse than anyone had anticipated. I do realise that two of Deputy Malone's colleagues on the county council were very much involved in this and I realise that they are fine people, but there are other people, too, people coming from far afield. Since there has been a clamp down on their activities 56 of these travellers, or bloodsuckers, have been flushed out. Recently Army pay has been given to the soldier alone; before this his wife used to get an allowance but now the man gets the full allowance. These people have been waiting around the corner for their payments, waiting to offer them a credit cheque for which they will charge an enormous amount of interest. They will follow a man 50 yards across a barrack square offering him this credit cheque.

There was one case where the wife of a private, whose allowance would have been about £5 per week, had entered into commitments up to £700. There is a reason, apart altogether from security, for the action of the OC in The Curragh. I know that traders have been given until March next to put their accounts in order and that anyone who has entered into commitments and has to collect payments after that time will be allowed to do so, provided they do not enter into further commitments.

Deputy Malone referred to unfair trading. There are traders on The Curragh who pay rent and rates; they have other overheads. They are subject to unfair trading from people who come in from outside and there must be a security risk involved. I am well aware that while this clamp down on traders coming into The Curragh may cause a certain amount of hardship, it was not done without grave reason and I consider that the OC was fully entitled to act as he did.

I agree with what Deputy Malone said regarding housing. Most of the problems that are brought to our notice by Army personnel deal with this matter. I compliment the Minister on the plans to provide another block in The Curragh for married quarters. However, there is the constant problem of over-holders. There are many of those and the number is increasing because we have reached the stage where many men are due to retire from the Army. While these people are over-holders they cannot enjoy their pensions or they are not eligible for a Government job.

Greater liaison is necessary between the county council and the Department of Defence to provide a purchase scheme, similar to that operated by the NBA, whereby a serving soldier can buy out his house. I do not altogether fault the Department of Defence because a site on The Curragh was offered in 1968 but it was not acceptable to the county council at that stage. I have been in touch with the Minister in the last few months and he has now agreed to provide another site. I am hopeful that something will come from this because a soldier is entitled to buy out his own house. When he retires after 40 years of service to his country that is not the time he should have to look for a house of his own. Sites are available on The Curragh and the implementation of such a scheme would not interfere with the landscape or amenities. I was born on the edge of The Curragh, I know the area well and I am satisfied the scheme could be implemented quite satisfactorily. The fact that sites are available free should ensure that the price is reasonable and it would be an incentive to soldiers who return from Cyprus and get a considerable lump sum to purchase their own homes.

Deputy Malone referred to the heating facilities in The Curragh, which are turf-fired. I suppose there would be a considerable outcry from the opposite benches if we attempted to use any other type of heating because turf is the native fuel and the most easily available fuel in Kildare. However, I do not think it is very efficient or economic and now is the time to look ahead. In the next 20 years many of our bogs will be worked out and we will have to look elsewhere for fuel. A single central heating system, worked off a master boiler, would be a worthwhile proposition. I have gone into the economics with a qualified person and he has assured me that it alone would save £18,000 a year on The Curragh.

I agree with the remarks made by Deputy Clinton regarding transport. There does not appear to be any annual scheme for renewal and replacement of transport in the Army. What is happening is that any new transport is driven to death for four years or thereabouts and the old vehicles—some of which have been in use for 15 years— are being serviced for about half or one-third of their working time. The fact that they are capable of being put on the road is a tribute to the dedication and work of the fitters and the technical people but I am sure if one went into the economics of the operation it would be obvious that it is a costly practice.

During last summer the Army put on a display in Droichead Nua. Armoured cars that had been in use for 25 years were displayed and while that is a tribute to the people involved I do not think it is very beneficial to the Army. The matter of transport is vital in any army. In the event of a calamity or catastrophe it is essential to move men from place to place very rapidly and in a case, for example, where a bridge collapsed, where there was a train disaster, or an epidemic such as foot and mouth disease, it would be essential to move the Army to the affected area as quickly as possible.

I should like to compliment the Minister and the Army authorities on the educational facilities now available in the Defence Forces. Last year a start was made in conjunction with the vocational education committee and a class was formed of men who had done a certain amount of post-primary work prior to joining the Army. This was most successful; 19 people started the course, 18 passed the group certificate examination and one dropped out. This year the scheme has been somewhat changed. Another class of 17 was formed and I spoke with them yesterday. The people involved got very little opportunity to pursue any educational training past the primary stage. They are doing a full-time two-year course of Irish, English, maths, mechanical drawing, art and bookkeeping. This is a success. I believe some of them would have been capable of taking the group certificate examination after a year but they are abiding by the timetable and will take two years.

We should compliment the Army authorities on the fact that they are the only body in the county—so far as I know—who grant full-time release to their men. The men are very grateful for this wonderful opportunity and I consider it would be worthwhile to extend this scheme. It should become part and parcel of Army life. The results achieved to date are most encouraging. The personnel availing of these educational facilities carry out a certain number of duties at the weekend but if the scheme is extended it may mean that those not availing of the educational course would be aggrieved that extra duties were being left to them, and for this reason numbers should be maintained.

The Army Apprentice School at Naas is turning out some wonderful personnel and I hope that, as promised, they will soon get the new block because it is badly needed. They are doing excellent work in conditions that are not very good. The some can be said about Baldonnel. It is a tribute to the educational facilities available that the Defence Forces train people properly and that the finished product is a good one.

A suggestion has been made by some of my own colleagues, I think, that the Minister should look into the question of selling some of the barracks in Dublin. Perhaps this is a good idea, but we would still, I am sure, have to keep Collins Barracks and some of the others. If there is a plan to rationalise or centralise our Army the Curragh-Naas-Kildare complex will offer everything to such an Army. There is plenty of room for expansion on The Curragh. Land is available there, which I doubt would be available anywhere else, for manoeuvres and other tactical exercises. All Army personnel, no matter where they are stationed, would agree that The Curragh is the only place for such a project should the Minister decide to follow that line.

With regard to the sale of the barracks in Dublin, there is an opinion among Army people that if these buildings are sold the money will never find its way back to the Defence Forces, that anything that civil servants get their hands on will never return. As an example I quote the consignment of Land Rovers that went from Mullingar to Cyprus. They were sold to the United Nations Forces and paid for, but up to this they have not been replaced. Army personnel think the same thing might happen if the Dublin barracks were closed.

There should be a definite policy in relation to our Defence Forces. For instance, what is the Air Force expected to do? Are they to be regarded solely as a group that carry out mercy missions, that engage in photography with the aid of helicopters or that provide technical training for Aer Lingus personnel? If that is the policy in regard to the air force it should be stated. In any case sufficient money should be made available to provide the equipment and schools required for this purpose. Baldonnel school, as I have said, is only a cluster of huts. Great work is being done there, but they are not being given a fair chance.

I must compliment the Minister on planning to provide three vessels that are capable of guarding our waters. If fishery protection is to be the work of our navy in future, it should be done efficiently. The ground work has been laid well with the three vessels which are on order. If foreigners find it lucrative to come thousands of miles to fish in our waters, it should be to our advantage to guard those waters for our own people.

I would not agree at all with Deputy Malone on the question of morale. Army morale is high and this is contrary to the statements of experts who have gone to great length to write articles in newspapers explaining why it should be low. The people in Kildare see our Army every day and hear our Army band perform. They have seen the Army gymnastic group perform on sixteen different occasions in twelve consecutive weeks last summer. They were privileged to see a helicopter display and artillery exhibition in Droichead Nua which the Minister for Local Government opened there last summer. The Minister was impressed as also were the people of Kildare. They know full well what our Defence Forces are capable of and are proud of them.

Deputy Malone remarked that there was a time when Army men's sons went into the Army. That custom is still prevalent, and I doubt if you would meet many Army men who have not at least one son in the Army.

I compliment the Minister on his interest. I would ask him to keep up the good work and he will have men that will not let him or the country down, because they realise the country believes in them, that the Minister believes in them and is prepared to make provision for them.

Mr. Taylor

The officers of the regular Army, the members of the FCA, those engaged in civil defence, the members of the marine service and the Air Corps deserve a tribute from the members of this House. During the past 12 months, which was a unique period in our history, the loyalty of these people to the State enabled us to uphold the morale of the nation.

Our Army should be properly equipped and properly housed, and we as Members of this House could ask ourselves have we always given our attention to the requirements of the Army. The first thing that should be done would be for the Minister to instruct the Corps of Engineers of our Army to make a survey of military installations, the different barracks, and assess properly what accommodation is required and then set about modernising the buildings. Efforts have been made to modernise the buildings of different Departments of State, but how slow the effort has been in relation to the Army is only known to those who have served for years in the Army or those who have gone for annual training as members of the voluntary services.

Recruiting and maintaining an effective strength are by far the most important problems facing the Army. If we were to go into the different reasons why so few are inclined to remain on in the Army as in the early years of its formation, we would find that boredom is the principle reason. Too many have to do fatigue duties, duties in the messes and so on. In the British and American armies those fatigue duties are performed by civilians. An effort should be made to have that work done in the different barracks by civilians. Other aspects should also be examined to find out why men are not prepared to remain in the Army over longer periods. There are possibly several reasons why we do not get more recruits. A five-day week would be an innovation, something which is being demanded by all our people in civilian life. Is there any good reason why we should not attempt to reduce the number of hours which serving soldiers have to give within the barrack area?

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.