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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 3 Feb 1971

Vol. 251 No. 4

Private Members' Business. - Adjournment Debate: Conroy Report.

I have raised this matter on the Adjournment because of serious acts of violence, particularly the most recent one which occurred at Lifford last week. I had this question down to the Minister before the Christmas recess and because of the large number of questions on the Order Paper it was not reached today. I therefore asked the Chair's permission to raise it on the Adjournment.

I can see a serious situation arising around the Border areas, due to the fact that the Government have accepted the Conroy Report which has reduced the working hours of the gardaí from 48 to 42. The minimum number of hours a garda was required to work before the introduction of the Conroy report was 48, but we all know from personal experience that the gardaí were working anything from 60 to 70 hours, yet the Government have not increased the number of personnel needed to make up the deficit because of the hours now being worked by the gardaí. The Conroy Report also recommended off-time of seven days per 28 days or a four-week month whereas the old regulations allowed two off-days in every calendar month.

We have heard a great deal of talk from the Government about standing idly by on matters that do not affect the everyday life of this country but the Minister for Justice is denying that there is any need to increase the Garda force because he believes that the up-to-date radio communication which the Department of Justice have made available to all gardaí is adequate to deal with the everyday disturbances which occur.

In the Minister's written reply he stated:

I make no secret of the fact that, like every other Minister for Justice before me, I would like to see more gardaí available but, as a member of a Government, I recognise that the resources of the community are limited and that there are many competing demands on the Exchequer. I believe that, in general, the present position in rural areas is not bad but it is my hope that I can improve it.

The Minister is here admitting that because of financial resources he is not prepared to increase the number of gardaí for the maintenance of law and order. The Government are standing idly by while people in Border areas are living on their nerves.

Last Tuesday morning in Lifford the customs post was blown up by, if we are to use our own logic, most likely the UVF. These people came across the Border, blew up the customs post, but they did not go back across the Border because it is too well guarded in the North. Instead they made their way into Donegal and escaped through another route. The Minister has told us that the up-to-date communications are adequate to meet any demands made on the gardaí at this particular time. The last 12 months has been an exciting time for this country. The Minister has told this House that the modern radio communications which he has provided for gardaí are adequate and that it is unnecessary for him to increase the number of personnel in the force. I claim that the present communications equipment is most inadequate and in many cases obsolete and in some cases it is not even in working order.

I should like to relate to the House a story which is common gossip in Donegal which relates to an incident in Derry on 26th August last year when the Munster and Leinster Bank was raided and robbed at 2.50 p.m. The Donegal gardaí from Buncrana were at the Border post at 3 o'clock but the raiders escaped by some other route. The garda had to use a public telephone coin box because of the substandard radio communication equipment he had. The raiders are known to the members of Saor Éire. The car they used was stolen from York Street car park, Dublin that day and it was later found abandoned in a bog outside Buncrana on the same day. Three men walked into a public house in Buncrana at 8 o'clock that evening and one of them was later identified by the publican as being one of the wanted men. Another was known by the gardaí and was wanted in connection with Garda Fallon's murder. His name is O'Donnell.

While I have no desire to protect anyone I do think——

I am pointing out to the House the necessity to have an increased number of gardaí in Donegal.

The Deputy is making allegations about people outside this House who have no way of replying to the Deputy.

The police have made this allegation and have named this particular man.

The three men stole a car in Buncrana that night and abandoned it in Raphoe. They stole a third car and abandoned it in Donegal town, where they stole a fourth car which they abandoned in Mullingar. It appears that they then made their way back to Dublin by public transport or some other method. The position is then that three men stole a car in Dublin, robbed a bank in Derry, jumped the Border in Donegal, abandoned the car and spent a couple of hours in a public house singing Irish ballads, stole three cars in County Donegal and were back in the city of Dublin within 24 hours. There is only one exit from County Donegal to the rest of the Republic unless one goes across the Border and I do not imagine if they were as shrewd as I think they are that they would have taken that route.

The man wanted in connection with Garda Fallon's murder was in the custody of the Dublin gardaí at an earlier date, not long after Garda Fallon's death, but was released. On whose instruction was this man let go? What effort has since been made to re-arrest him? The point I am making is that if the Donegal police force had had a sufficient number of men available on the day of the Derry bank robbery they could have combed the Innishowen area and prevented these three robbers from escaping.

The Minister tells us that because of the up-to-date radio communication it is completely unnecessary for him to spend money because he says the resources of the community are limited. He will stand idly by and will not increase the number of gardaí despite the fact, and it is an open secret, that every officer in the police force in the Republic of Ireland is telling the Minister through his Department that while the force at the moment are going through what could be described as a honeymoon period after the introduction of the Conroy Report sooner or later these men will rebel again unless the Minister increases the strength.

My information is that at least one bank in County Donegal has installed an alarm system which sounds in the local Garda barracks if the bank is raided but the local Garda barracks closes at six o'clock and does not open until nine o'clock the following morning. I could name that barracks but for reasons which are obvious to Members of the Dáil I do not wish to name it. This is the type of thing that alarms me and makes people uneasy in County Donegal and in the border areas generally but I am speaking generally on County Donegal having been elected to represent that county and my remarks deal exclusively with Donegal.

We had another incident in the autumn of the year. In the town of Lifford the Rehabilitation Institute had the official opening of their centre and many gardaí were called in to the town to help with traffic arrangements. Six hours later there was a bus robbery within three miles of the town of Lifford and we could not get a garda. This is not any reflection on the members of the Force who serve there, it is a reflection on the Department of Justice and on the Government who have failed to implement the contents of the Conroy Report in full by increasing the numbers required. The sooner this is done the better.

The radio system that is available to the gardaí in Donegal can only be described as ludicrous. It has been described to me by a member of the Garda Síochána as being ridiculous. He pointed out that the ESB can communicate quite clearly with Sligo but the radio used by the Garda cannot contact a patrol car even two or three miles outside a town. This is the type of radio communication which the Minister says is adequate to meet the recommendations of the Conroy Report.

Before the Deputy goes on, could he tell me where I said that because I cannot recall saying it?

I cannot recall whether it was the present Minister or——

Ah now, that is very——

It was a Minister for Justice. I do not think Deputy O'Malley can claim to be the only Minister for Justice we have had in this House.

Well the Deputy said "the Minister" and he looked across at me, so I am entitled to assume he means me.

Look up the records of the House and you will see what was said.

The Deputy is making the case. Let him look them up.

Does the Minister not admit what I am claiming is in his written reply? In July, 1969, an incident took place in the peninsula of Fanad in the Northern part of Donegal. A caravan was taken out by what could be described as the super-republican section of our community. I hope the Minister recognises who I am taking about, without naming them. They pulled this caravan out of its parking plot and pushed it down to the shore where it was taken out by the tide and then they courageously fired a few bullets into it. The owner of the vehicle, who comes from Northern Ireland, came back to recover it and while it was being towed from Ramelton to Letterkenny it was blown up and we had another heroic blow for Ireland by our super-Republican heroes. The people responsible have not been brought to justice despite the fact that they are commonly known to people in the Fanad area. It is high time the Minister who has just finished speaking at length on the squatting Bill instructed someone at senior level to bring these people to justice. That was last year. This year, a fortnight or three weeks ago, a reverend gentleman's home was almost destroyed by a stick of gelignite. Nobody has yet been arrested for that and if the Minister tells me that the radio communications are adequate to meet the need for increased personnel in our Garda Force it does not appear to be the case.

In the last few months we have had acts of violence on both sides of the Border. On one occasion a British newspaper reporter telephoned me to ask me, because of my close connection with the Lifford and Strabane area, what I thought of the Strabane bank robbery. The Belfast bank was robbed on the 28th September at 11 a.m. and £4,000 was stolen. Those thieves were across the Border within two minutes. Immediately they got across the Border they were free, again because of lack of communication. Token chase was offered by a customs patrol car which went in pursuit but just could not catch up with the criminals. When I was asked for my comments I said that if the police on the Northern side of the Border had been allowed—if this Government would enter into reciprocal arrangements or rather recognise that irrespective of whether one is Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil, Nationalist or Unionist, every person born of Irish parents in this 32 County island is an Irishman— if we could recognise that despite the fact that one group of Irishmen wear a different police uniform from what we would like them to wear, if we were big enough to say: "If you in the course of your duty find it necessary to cross into our territory in giving chase to bank robbers or other criminals and stay with them until they are arrested by the local gardaí you are free and welcome to do so" then we might attempt to restore law and order to some degree. In return if our police force could follow the same type of criminals into the Six Counties we would be achieving something. Perhaps it might not be a bad thing if we could come to some agreement with the Northern Government so that the police forces on both sides of the Border could wear similar types of uniform. In that case it might not be as repulsive to people this side of the Border to look at an RUC uniform or for some people North of the Border to look at a Garda uniform.

Other things have happened. The Ballyshannon transformer was attacked. We had the incident in Rossnowlagh. We had the RTE aerial at Raphoe attacked. We have dance halls closing down all over the county because the Garda personnel cannot maintain law and order. My local parish priest had to close down the local dance hall which has been going since I went to dances as a boy. This is because law and order cannot be maintained.

The Minister for Justice will be doing less than his duty if he does not take a serious view of what I am saying and immediately increase the Garda Force. It is no secret that every Garda officer is telling the Minister through his Department that more men are needed. The Letterkenny division, the one with which I am directly concerned, would need at least 12 extra men and we have I think, five divisions in Donegal. Therefore between 50 and 60 Gardaí are needed to police the County of Donegal properly and if the Minister for Justice is still not satisfied —and I will not be satisfied with less —he should speak to the Minister for Defence and call on the Defence Forces to protect public buildings along the Border areas.

I understood that the Deputy was raising the subject matter of question 53 on to-day's Order Paper which refers to the position in rural areas, but the Deputy appears to have concentrated on County Donegal alone which puts me at a disadvantage.

It is no different from the rest of the country.

I am afraid that is scarcely accurate. Border counties such as Donegal are in a somewhat more special position that other rural counties. For that reason I am afraid that I am not as prepared as I would like to be to deal with a great deal of what the Deputy has been saying. In particular, I find it difficult to reply adequately to the type of speech which the Deputy made—I am not blaming him for this because presumably this is what he wanted to say—but it is difficult to reply adequately to a speech about a considerable number of cases of specific crimes at specific places on specific dates. I may say, in passing, that I have heard and probably have read reports on most, if not all, of the incidents referred to by the Deputy.

That is a terrible admission to make, when you as Minister took no action.

I am aware of the fact that several of the crimes referred to by the Deputy took place outside the jurisdiction. Although in some of those cases the persons who allegedly perpetrated the crimes crossed the border into our jurisdiction, on occasion they re-crossed at another point —and this is well-known to the gardaí. The Deputy will appreciate that it is impossible for me to deal not alone individually but even in a general way with specific crimes which took place over a period of time in a particular county.

I am not asking him to deal with crime. I am asking the Minister to increase the police force.

It appeared to me that underlying the Deputy's complaint about or reference to these various instances was some sort of implied allegation that the gardaí had in some way got some direction that they were not to prosecute people.

It is well-known that they were got at, and the judges and justices were got at.

I want to say quite categorically that no such direction has been given by the Government to the Garda Síochána or the law officers since I became Minister for Justice on the 7th May, 1970.

You let out Dwyer yourself, who shot at guards.

To the best of my knowledge and belief, no such direction was given to the gardaí at any time before that.

A member of Saor Éire went in and gave himself up at the Garda barracks in Dublin and they refused to arrest him.

Will the Deputy please cease interrupting? The Deputy does not seem to wish to listen to any reply. If this is so, I will adjourn the House.

Why should it be said at the Fianna Fáil Árd Fheis that the people in Donegal were not sent to jail——

Deputy Harte referred in particular to some crimes in which he said it was well-known by the people in the locality who had committed the crimes, but that the Government and the gardaí were not prepared to arrest and prosecute these people. The gardaí will arrest and prosecute the perpetrator of any crime where they have sufficient evidence and a prima facie case. I am glad to hear from Deputy Harte, in relation to these particular crimes to which he referred especially, that he and many people in the locality know who committed them. I assume, therefore, that they are in a position to afford to the gardaí sufficient legal proof to enable them to arrest and prosecute these people. I would say to Deputy Harte and to those other people in the locality, with whom he had discussed the matter, that it is their duty as citizens to go to the gardaí and to volunteer statements. I hope that Deputy Harte and his friends will do that. The gardaí will be only too happy to act on such statements.

I do not wish to interrupt——

(Interruptions.)

I spent 1¼ hours trying to reply to the last debate and I did not succeed in finishing. It was unreasonable to think that I could reply in ten minutes to the Deputy.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy L'Estrange has his own inimitable way of changing the subject when the facts have been given to him by a Minister and when the Minister has somewhat demolished his arguments.

What about the man who fired over the graves in Mullingar? The files were sent up and they are still in the Department of Justice.

I wish to tell Deputy L'Estrange for his information and edification that the prosecution of persons in this country is a matter for the law officer, who is the Attorney General, and who acts quite independently of the Government. The Attorney General forms his own judgment as to whether or not there should be a prosecution in any particular case. It is a matter for the Attorney General alone to direct the entry of a nolle prosequi in any indictable case.

What about the files which were sent up from Mullingar?

Deputy Harte made a speech and finished at 10.50 p.m. I got ten minutes to reply. I am not finished.

The Minister has not even started.

Deputy L'Estrange, apart from prompting Deputy Harte, did not speak at all before 10.50 p.m. I started at 10.50 p.m. and I have made some progress.

A Fianna Fáil Senator intimidated people in Rossnowlagh and nothing was done.

I wish Deputy L'Estrange would let me say something because otherwise Deputy Harte can legitimately complain that I am not replying to the points he made. With regard to my alleged remarks on the radio network, Deputy Harte stated that I had said that the radio network was adequate and satisfactory, or words to that effect. I asked the Deputy where and when I had said that. The Deputy could not recall my making these remarks and he said it was probably not I but one of my predecessors.

I said you were not the only Minister for Justice. That does not rule out the fact that it could have been Deputy O'Malley.

I can assure the Deputy solemnly that I never said that the radio network was adequate or satisfactory. I have on occasion said in private that the radio network was not adequate. I am now saying that in public. I have established a special body to work on this as a matter of extreme urgency. They are working on the replanning and establishment of a proper, up-to-date and effective radio network to cover the entire Twenty-six Counties. I agree that the present network is not satisfactory. I am absolutely satisfied that as a result of this operation, which I have initiated, much of the work will, I hope, be carried out in the coming financial year. There is provision for it in the Estimates for that year. Within a matter of some years we should have a radio network which will be second to none.

Does the Minister intend to increase the personnel of the force?

As I said in my reply to the Deputy today, I make no secret of the fact that, like every Minister for Justice before me, I should like to see more gardaí available.

But the Minister is not doing anything about it.

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 4th February, 1971.

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