asked the Minister for External Affairs if, in view of the great uncertainties and possible hazards to all elements of Irish life which membership of the EEC entails, an adequate study has been made of such possible alternatives to membership as: (i) obtaining provision for continued access to the British market in the same way as Commonwealth sugar producers and New Zealand dairy and sheep farmers, or (ii) obtaining new markets for established and new agricultural exports.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Membership of EEC.
10.
I do not accept the assumptions on which the Deputy's question is based. As I stated in reply to questions on 9th February, our application has from the beginning been for membership as this is the course which the Government consider would best serve Ireland's interests.
If Britain decided not to go into the EEC would the question arise about our joining without Britain?
There is a question on the Order Paper about that. I have answered that question before in the Dáil.
The Minister has not answered it.
The Deputy asked me would we get the same arrangements as have been got for New Zealand. No arrangements have been got for New Zealand yet. The indications are that the arrangements which will be agreed on for New Zealand and for the sugarproducing Commonwealth countries mentioned by the Deputy would be to have whatever they get phased out. Such arrangements would be only temporary. No arrangement has yet been made.
Is the Minister sure it would be only temporary?
No arrangements have yet been made. The Deputy asked if we could get the same arrangements as they got.
Is the Minister saying there will be no great uncertainties or possible hazards in membership of the EEC?
There will be no greater uncertainly and certainly no greater hazards in membership than in non-membership. We would be much worse off in situation where we were not a member. Life itself is full of hazards.
Suppose, for one reason or another, Britain were to withdraw her application, what would happen?
In Question No. 13 there is mention of that.
11.
asked the Minister for External Affairs whether the Government have yet received from the EEC Commission any indication of the percentage contribution to the EEC Budget by this country from the proposed date of entry to 1979.
No proposals have yet been put to us in the negotiations by the Community Delegation with regard to our contribution to the financing of the Communities during the transitional period.
We are behind the British in the negotiations. We are at an earlier stage than Britain. Britain have advanced to the extent where their contribution has been mentioned and negotiated on.
No proposals have been made to anybody about financing yet, but the Commission have submitted a paper on transitional arrangements which includes proposals about Britain's contribution, which would be a very big thing in terms of the negotiations because of the size of the British contribution.
Is there no intimation to us as to what our contribution might be?
We have had some principles on which the contribution would be based but I think the Deputy is aware that our contribution would be fairly small.
Could the Minister put any figure on it? We will not hold him to it.
We have it in the White Paper. I think a figure of £19 million is mentioned.
What percentage?
The arrangements are not made on percentages.
Britain's figure relates to a percentage.
The Deputy should face the fact that the British financing arrangements are so important to the negotiations that they could make or break them. The amount of our financing would not be enormous.
12.
asked the Minister for External Affairs the estimated increased annual financial contributions by Ireland to the European Economic Community as a consequence of each 1 per cent drop in the level of contributions to the Community at present being sought by the Community from Britain in the course of negotiations.
The Community has not yet put forward proposals in the negotiations on the level of contributions to be paid by Britain, Ireland and the other applicant countries during the transitional period. Until we know the Community's proposals for a formula to be applied to the distribution of expenditure among the other member States, it is not possible to make an estimate such as the Deputy is seeking for any one of the applicant countries. In any event, the amount so far as Ireland is concerned would be small.
Would the Minister give a reply based on the Commission's suggestions, if not on the Community's proposals because I suggest that the time has come to stop talking in the realm of theory and some indication should be given to the House as to what the costings will be?
I cannot say, Deputy. It might clarify it for the Deputies to be told that the financing of the Community would be a matter for the ten countries if the four applicants are accepted and that the financing by any one country, with the variation in the financing required of any one country, will be spread, either beneficially or otherwise, among the other nine and not in proportion just to an equal one-ninth but in relation probably to the GNP represented by the particular country concerned as a percentage of the total GNP of the enlarged Community. If the Deputy would like to do exercises, which would have no bearing on the situation at all, but he might like to do it, a 1 per cent change would represent about 40 million to 45 million dollars and that sum would be spread among the other nine according to a formula which is not a direct fraction but related, as I say, to possibly the percentage of their GNP to the whole enlarged Community GNP. If the Deputy wanted to do a sum on that he could do it without asking me how to do it.
No, it is more useful than the information which we usually get from the Minister, which is nil. At least we heard something——
This is quite wrong. The Deputy should read the Dáil Reports. I circulated an up-to-date progress report last month and I have a 50-page document which should be out in a couple of days. I mentioned that last week.
We read more in the newspapers any day than we ever get from the Minister's Department.
Yes, but the newspapers are very accurate——
They are, but——
——on negotiations.
——the Minister undertook to brief the House and to brief the country and he has given them nothing.
If you ask anybody walking around the streets he will tell you.
All that you give us is a summary of what we have read in the newspapers during the previous months. That is no briefing.
I assume people read newspapers.
We do.
I assume that they read Dáil Reports. If they are not——
(Interruptions.)
I assume they read what I circulate, the White Paper on Agriculture, the Progress Report last month, and I assume they read my speeches. Certainly I will assume that you will read the progress to date which I will circulate in the next couple of days. If Fine Gael want a supervised study section——
(Interruptions.)
I do not like shouting, Deputy.
13.
asked the Minister for External Affairs the principal advantages and disadvantages to Ireland of membership of a European Economic Community of which Britain was not a member.
If the negotiations with Britain were to fail, a completely new situation would be created. In this situation we would have to examine most carefully the economic options open to us. However, in the present situation, I do not consider that an assessment of the implications of membership on the basis of the Deputy's hypothesis would be appropriate.
I take it that the Minister also reads the newspapers and I take it also that he is better informed than he is prepared to inform others and will he not accept that there are now indications that Britain may not join the EEC and on that account it is terribly important that we do not delay any further a thorough investigation of what alternatives are open to this country and, in particular, whether it would be more beneficial or less beneficial for us to join if Britain remains out? I suggest that now is the time and not after the event.
I have made a study of all the possible alternative situations which may present themselves in the future. In so far as we can be prepared for these we are prepared. I would not assume a failure in the negotiations but if the negotiations did not go ahead now this would create a new situation, as I said, which would be of considerable political significance to the Six as they exist, because their decision to negotiate for enlargement was linked with their decision to complete the unification of the Community. While it would be of enormous significance to us, the Deputy may take it that a totally new situation would arise in Europe for the Community, for Britain and for ourselves and the hypothesis on which we would base our preparation against that time would perhaps change completely but in so far as a study can be done we have done it.
Would the Minister not give us the benefit of his studies?
I do not think it would be useful at this time.
In the event of Britain not becoming a member of the EEC— and there is a distinct possibility of this, I cannot say one way or the other, but there is mounting opposition to it in Britain, not alone from Members of Parliament but from the public —would the Minister not agree that one of the first tasks of our Government would be to negotiate a new trade agreement with Britain?
If Britain does not go in I think we will have to take the whole position open at that time and negotiate, for the best interests of this country, whatever agreements we can negotiate with Britain, or the Community, whatever is available, but the House should be aware that there are other people besides Ireland making decisions in this and therefore you cannot prognosticate as clearly as you would like.
The Minister should be tolerant of other voices than Fianna Fáil when they talk about the EEC.
Certainly I welcome the interest of Deputies in this. Yes, indeed.
They are not enemies of the people if they talk about it?
Oh, no. It is only when anybody puts on a stage-Irishman act——
(Interruptions.)
We saw plenty of that lately.
In the event of the United Kingdom abandoning their application for membership of the EEC, by referendum or otherwise, what exactly will be the position of this country? Would we pursue our application or would we abdicate on the heel of Britain?
The Deputy never ceases to amaze me. We have been talking about that now.
I just want an answer.
The answer in so far as I can make one is that at that time a totally new situation would be created, not alone for Britain and the other applicants, but for the Six. I cannot say at this time, if the Community as it exists would continue to have negotiations with other applicants because their decisions to enlarge were based on the prospect of British accession; their decision to enlarge was made in the concept of completing the Community as they called it, so a totally new situation, the different items of which could not be prognosticated, would present itself.
(Interruptions.)
Question No. 14.
We are only watching what Britain is doing.
Well, it is very important that we watch what moves Britain, and other countries too, make.
Do you not mean that if they do not go in we do not go in?
I am watching nine others; you are watching one another.
You mean that if they do not go in we do not go in?
That does not follow at all.
It certainly does.
That does not follow at all, Deputy.
That is what you are trying to avoid saying.
That is what you would like to say. You said it.
(Interruptions.)
14.
asked the Minister for External Affairs if he will make a statement on the progress to date in the negotiations for entry to the European Economic Community; and if he will state, particularly, the views which were exchanged in the course of negotiations on 16th February last.
I intend to circulate to Deputies within a few days a comprehensive report on the progress of our negotiations. This will cover developments up to and including the meeting with the Communities at Deputies level on 16th February.
I am glad my prodding of the Minister into activity is producing something.
No, I promised that to Deputy Corish last week.
(Interruptions.)
We are getting mixed up with all the White Papers.