asked the Minister for Justice if, in view of the many serious fires which have occurred recently, he will take immediate steps to increase the Garda force in Dublin city.
49.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Fire Protection Measures.
48.
(Cavan) asked the Minister for Justice what steps he proposes to take to protect Dublin city stores and other buildings against fires; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 48 and 49 together.
The nature of the threat in this matter is such that no increase in Garda strength that could possibly be contemplated could make any significant difference. The onus of taking precautions must rest on each individual owner and it would be misleading for me to suggest otherwise. Garda activity in this matter must be directed at seeking to apprehend those responsible in cases where fires are malicious rather than by preventive patrols. Owners have, in fact, been advised both privately and in public to this effect by the Garda.
(Cavan): Would the Minister agree that evidence which has come to hand to date about these fires appears to indicate clearly that they are deliberate and constitute arson? Because of the sense of insecurity which has been generated in the city as a result of these fires, the enormous value of the property involved and the likely cost to the ratepayers of this city, will the Minister not agree that this is a matter for some special steps of a crisis nature to be taken—not just merely telling owners of property to look after themselves—to track down these people and restore a sense of security to property owners in this city?
The Deputy will appreciate, I am sure, that in a threat of this particular kind, no matter how many gardaí are on duty in Dublin city, the repercussions of such a threat cannot be ruled out completely. I assume the Deputy is aware of the general nature of the threat and the way in which some of these fires have arisen and I think he will agree that, even if gardaí were on duty in the stores themselves, they could still not have prevented some of these fires. All the gardaí can do is to make very clear to property owners subject to this threat what precautions they should take. I am glad to say nearly all are taking pretty elaborate precautions.
(Cavan): With all due respect to the Minister, does the Minister not think he is treating this in far too casual a manner?
Deputies
Hear, hear.
(Cavan): He seems to regard it as something of a normal situation. Surely it is the business of the Minister to release a sufficient number of the detective branch or the gardaí, who are specially qualified in this kind of thing, to track down these people and see that they are put behind bars?
The gardaí are quite satisfied that the numbers available to them in respect of this work are perfectly adequate. I do not want to go into any details, but the Deputy will be aware that the gardaí have issued a description of three persons they think could help them in their inquiries. I have looked at this matter specially and I do not think it can be alleged that the gardaí are not making every possible effort.
(Cavan): My interest is that I do not think the Minister really seems to appreciate that there is a very, very serious situation which needs to be dealt with as a major crisis and as a major attack on the citizens and security of this city.
Hear, hear.
(Cavan): No matter what steps are necessary they should be taken. Every effort should be made at once and it should not be simply a matter of saying to property owners: “It is your business. Go and look after it yourself.” That is not what we have a police force for.
I have, I think, made it quite clear I take a very serious view of this matter. The Garda have made very strenuous efforts, indeed, but, as I have pointed out, with a threat of this nature, even if there were 1,000 gardaí available in the city tomorrow morning they still could not cope with this particular type of arsonist.
Nonsense.
(Cavan): It is up to the Minister to get to the bottom of it. I know it is hard to stop these people.
Has the Minister had any report——
(Interruptions.)
——that the burglar alarm in Cavendish's was heard by people passing by, long before the fire broke out?
No. I have a report on the fire at Cavendish's, but there is nothing in it to that effect. That has not been reported to the Garda.
I heard this.
The Deputy hears many funny things.
Order.
In the past it was usual for a member of the Garda Síochána to be in Grafton Street, but on this occasion it appears there was not.
Did the Minister suggest that people should mind their own premises?
I did, as part of the necessary precautions.
Why does the Minister not tell the banks to do the same thing?
I am calling Question No. 50. We cannot discuss this question all evening. I have already allowed about nine supplementaries.
(Cavan): Is this not a question of the Minister and his colleague the Minister for Finance economising by taking gardaí off the streets in order to avoid paying them overtime, when they are necessary in situations like this?
It certainly is not. I have to repeat now for the third time in reply to this question that it is not a question of gardaí numbers. As I have told the House already if there were a 1,000 more gardaí in Dublin City, not one of these fires could have been prevented.
(Interruptions.)
I am calling Question No. 50.
Might I be allowed to ask the Minister for Justice a supplementary question? Has the number of gardaí been increased as a result of the Conroy Report?
That question has been asked three times in the course of the discussion.
It has been asked three times but we have not received an answer yet.
There are 242 more gardaí in the Dublin metropolitan area than there were four years ago.
(Interruptions.)
I cannot allow any further questions. The Deputy has asked five questions already.
(Cavan): I do not want to ask a question.
I beg the Deputy's pardon.
(Cavan): As the Minister seems to be so casual about this important matter, I feel it is necessary to raise it on the Adjournment.
The Chair will communicate with the Deputy.