Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 23 Mar 1971

Vol. 252 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Vote 42: Posts and Telegraphs (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1971, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and of certain other services administered by that Office, and for payment of a Grant-in-Aid.

—(Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.)

Dr. O'Connell

There are just a few points on which I wish to conclude. I was discussing television and its impact on our society. We should voice our views on what we would like to see on television. There is a dearth of drama on television. I know it can be costly putting on plays but, before the advent of television, Radio Éireann put on plays every Sunday night and it encouraged a great interest in drama. We might help our dramatists and engender love for the theatre if the RTE Authority encouraged plays on television, particularly Irish plays.

Television has a great role to play in schools and I am amazed that greater use is not being made of it. Television is being used at certain hours of the morning but very few schools avail of it. I have inquired and any schools I have asked do not have these programmes in their schools in the morning. I would like to see certain subjects such as civics and languages taught on television. These language courses could be extended to adults at night. If Ireland is to participate in the EEC foreign languages will become a very important part of our lives. I do not think this would involve a tremendous expenditure. The BBC have available foreign language TV courses and these could be acquired by RTE. Television should also be used for basic medical education and education in hygiene. For instance, mothers of children could be informed on basic matters by qualified persons.

The Bunny Carr programme, "Encounter", which I saw last Sunday night is a magnificent programme. It was very informative and gave plenty of scope for thought. I would like to see more such programmes. I fail to see why it should be confined to one night a week. These programmes are discussed for days afterwards and RTE should have regard to the presentation of programmes which are useful and informative.

Unfortunately we are inclined to forget the radio, especially in the city. Radio should be used to impart information from local authorities. I asked the Minister for Local Government some years ago about the possibility of radio being used to provide necessary information about housing and so on. I would also like to have more hospitals' request programmes on the radio. I have vivid memories of the radio during the war years when hospitals' request programmes were important to so many people in the sanatoria and other hospitals. Unfortunately it was only broadcast once a week. I remember on one occasion there were so many people requesting a particular tune that by the time the announcer got around to reading all the names it was almost three o'clock and there was no time to play the record. This programme is a valuable link with people in hospitals and should be more frequent. We should also establish a link with our exiles through a programme like the BBC programme, "Forces Favourites".

Mr. Crowley

We need stronger radio transmitters.

Dr. O'Connell

We do indeed. I am delighted the Deputy said that. I was travelling recently from Dublin to Galway. I could hear the BBC and I could hear Luxembourg but I could not hear RTE although I tried every wavelength. I do agree with the Deputy that there is need for something to be done about this.

In regard to the circulation of the RTE Guide when RTE are increasing their fee, perhaps they would increase it to a figure that would include the RTE Guide so that everyone who paid his fee would receive a copy of each issue of that publication. Perhaps this would involve a controlled circulation but it would be a tremendous boost and I doubt if licence holders would object to the extra charge to cover this service.

Mr. Crowley

Increase the fee to include the RTE Guide?

Dr. O'Connell

I understand the fees are to be increased anyway and I am suggesting that there be an all-inclusive fee to cover the cost of the RTE Guide. This would result in extra revenue to the Authority and, also, they could very justifiably increase the rates for advertising in the Guide.

Mr. Crowley

They may increase fees if they provide multi-channel television for Cork.

Dr. O'Connell

On this question of RTE, there is a dissident in the Government Party. Since multi-channel television has been mentioned, I might say that I have noticed the Minister's agreement in relation to piped television. RTE as a contractor are about to provide this. However, I have had complaints from many people in Ballymun in this regard. The residents in one area signed a contract with RTE and it was agreed with the association that piped television would be provided by September last. This was not done and since then they have heard nothing about the matter. If RTE are serious in this regard and if they wish to enter this field of contracting, they must remember that they will be in competition with private contractors and, therefore, they should make every effort to ensure that they can compete with private contractors.

In my area, also, I noticed that forms were circulated by RTE for completion by householders but nothing has happened since. I am wondering whether the Authority are geared to provide this service and, if they are so geared, why they are not providing it? It seems such a pity to forego such a valuable source of revenue. If RTE do not provide the service, people will become impatient and will avail of private contractors who are vying hard with one another to secure these contracts.

On the question of public telephones, I recall that the Minister had a change of heart last year and said that public phones were being considered from the point of view of providing a social service rather than being an economic proposition. I am amazed that that fact was admitted by the Minister only last year because, obviously, public telephones should be available to persons who have not private telephones.

I had occasion recently to comment on the condition of public telephones in my area. These have been out of action for many months. Anybody who is lucky enough to have a private telephone installed can have no conception of the inconvenience that is caused when public telephones are out of order. It must be frustrating in an emergency to find that one's local public telephone cannot be used. I am wondering how often public telephones are inspected. As soon as they go out of action, they should be repaired. One public telephone can serve 500 families. If there is repetitive vandalism in the case of any particular telephone, the Department should see to it that the apparatus is installed elsewhere or that a phone is made available at some private house for which some concession could be given to the householder. I notice that by the canal at Inchicore there is merely a shell of one telephone kiosk. It is a pity that no alternative measures are taken by the Department to combat this vandalism. The result of this is that local residents are victimised.

I would ask the Minister to consider seriously the provision of more public telephones. They are vital in many areas and especially in housing areas where there are usually a lot of children and where there is a high incidence of illness which often necessitates calling a doctor during the night.

I might remind the Minister that while we can usually make a phone call to any part of Great Britain with the least possible trouble, it is often very difficult to get through to Donegal or to some place in the west of Ireland. This results because of the fact that the call must go through a number of exchanges. This problem is a deterrent to industries who might otherwise be encouraged to set up business in these areas. A telephone link with Europe and Britain would be of great importance. The lack of a proper telephone service would be regarded as a major problem.

I had occasion to phone the Department about two years ago in connection with the installation of an internal telephone system in a small business and I was astonished when I was told that the post office had not got the equipment in stock. The Department of Social Welfare have not been able to have a proper exchange installed because of the long delays in the provision of equipment. On the occasion on which I telephoned on behalf of the person who required the system for his business—that was in March—I was told that supplies had run out the previous September. I asked what would be done and the reply I received was: "We will get around to ordering it." The Department must be able to compete with private contractors. They are losing out all the time because these contracts are a source of considerable revenue.

I should like to see the introduction here of "collect" telephone calls. Sometimes people may find themselves away from home and not having the money to phone their homes. If this system were in operation such people could make their phone calls and charge them to the home account. This system is in operation in Great Britain and America and I see no reason why we could not have it here. We should not lag so far behind other advanced countries in matters of this kind.

I have been wondering about the business directory, which is a very good book. How much revenue accrues to the Department from it? It is a very valuable source of revenue but we have no information about it. Why not? Every page is worth money. For how long were the royalties granted to a British firm? I would think there is a lot of money in it for the Department. The Minister is laughing. I am suggesting ways whereby the Department could make money.

Mr. G. Collins

I can assure the Deputy that I am terribly serious at the moment.

Dr. O'Connell

I have no doubt about it. It is nothing to smile about when we make suggestions from this side as to how the Department might make money. It is not good enough to condemn a Department without making constructive suggestions——

Mr. G. Collins

Hear, hear.

Dr. O'Connell

——as to how they could make money. These are my suggestions. The royalties from the business directory should have been retained by the Department and not given to a British concern.

Mr. Crowley

They would be running it at a substantial loss.

Dr. O'Connell

I could very quickly and readily tell them how they could make money. If they are running it at a loss that is wrong. I can see at least £50,000 revenue coming from it each year. I am speaking as somebody who knows about this. I know this business. I am not making outlandish statements that are without foundation. I could show the Department how they could make money out of it. There is no reason why they should not.

Mr. Crowley

Net profit?

Dr. O'Connell

Yes.

Mr. G. Collins

Does the Deputy mean to the Department?

Dr. O'Connell

That is a serious statement I have made but I can substantiate it without any difficulty. The initial cost of installing a telephone is a terrible deterrent to anyone who is seriously considering having a telephone installed. It is unjust and immoral to ask for such a fee at the outset. I realise that the Department have to recoup the money in some way. It should be recouped over a number of years. I do not believe that the Department are encouraging people to move into this age of telephonic communications. They seem to be trying to stop people from availing of this service. It is a terrible burden on anybody to have to pay that amount. It was a retrograde step on the part of the Department to introduce the system under which so much is paid in advance. When I think of the way private firms can do it, I wonder why the Department cannot. When I was in the United States I applied for a telephone in the morning and I had it that afternoon. It cost me £2 10s a month and I did not pay a penny for local calls. That was a private company operating in a town with a population of 69,000. I would appeal to the Minister to consider some other way of getting this money rather than to charge such an exorbitant amount initially.

I want to refer now to the question of postal deliveries. The Minister's predecessor said that the question of the public providing post boxes on the side of the road was very important especially in the rural areas. He said he might be forced to compel people to do this. He will have to do this, and it should be done. We should adopt the system that operates elsewhere. People provide their own post boxes and this makes it easier for the postmen to effect deliveries. I hasten to disagree with Deputy Tully on the question of early morning deliveries. We live in a very competitive age and there must be early morning deliveries because businesses must be able to operate. They cannot wait until 9.30 or 10 in the morning to start their business.

We might be able to streamline the delivery offices. This should be considered seriously. An advertisement by the Department for clerical positions for boys and girls between the ages of 15½ and 17½ was brought to my attention recently. I did not see the advertisement but I got a telephone call about it. Most of the applicants will come from rural areas. We advocate that the school leaving age should be 16 years. I am also wondering about the salary which is offered to these boys and girls coming from rural areas. Is it commensurate with the cost of living and will it enable these people to live in Dublin? This disturbed the person who took the trouble to telephone me about it and I should like to know about it also.

Is the Minister aware that girls working in sub-post offices had to attend courses on decimalisation in their own time and at their own expense? It was brought to my attention that they found this extremely difficult. I know the Minister has no control over the sub-post offices but it seems very unfair that those girls, who had to acquaint themselves with decimalisation, should have had to pay their own expenses and give up their own time. They should have got some allowance.

Would it be possible for the Minister to consider streamlining many of the sub-post offices? Perhaps if they were larger they would be more efficient and provide a better service for the public. The Minister might consider this. The week before last I was prevailing upon him to use more initiative and to have a little more vision and imagination. When he leaves that Department I hope he will have left his mark on it.

Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. G. Collins)

I wish to thank Deputies for the way in which they received this Supplementary Estimate and discussed it and for the tributes paid to the staff. At the outset I should like to say that I am greateful to Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins for her expression of good wishes to me personally as well as for her contribution to the debate which was on the whole fairly reasonable. Before dealing with the points raised by Deputies I regret that it is necessary for me to rebut some general charges she made. It is a pity she allowed herself to be carried away completely at one stage to absurd exaggeration about the quality of postal and telecommunications services. She trotted out the old canard that a carrier pigeon can deliver a letter faster than the post office. I can say with every confidence that the postal service in this country, while not perfect, is one of the best in the world.

Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins's illustration of delayed delivery was particularly unhappy. It referred to the first day issue cover posted by the GPO on decimal day. I do not know whether the delay she mentioned took place, but it would not surprise me if it did, under such extraordinary circumstances. The Deputy must have little appreciation of the work involved for post office staffs in connection with decimalisation or the extraordinary trouble taken to postmark carefully by hand every first day cover. A few days after decimal day a leading city businessman, who has an interest in philately, which moved him to call to a room where special staff were dealing with a big philatelic mail, told me he was most impressed by the efficiency of the arrangements for the first day covers and the great care being exercised by the staff. It must be clear to everyone that Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins is not a philatelist. As far as I and my Department are concerned philately is a highly profitable business. I am quite sure she would not have suggested that someone wishing to send an urgent business letter would have done so in a first day cover.

Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins seems ready to believe tall tales about the telephone service and how calls from Manchester, Bolivia and Peru reach her. The suggestion that our telephone service is the worst in the world is too ridiculous to refute. While these exaggerated complaints might leave me unmoved they are very unfair to the zealous staff of the post office whether they be directly and immediately concerned with the delivery of letters or connection of telephone calls or, indirectly, in the preparation, execution, planning or supervision of the work of the services. I shall say no more about these matters because I am confident that Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins was indulging in feminine exaggeration and had no intention of being hurtful to the staff. In fairness to the staff of the post office services I feel I had to say this much.

This has been a very lengthy debate and no less useful for having been generally quite and friendly. For my part I should like to show my appreciation of the attitude of the House by dealing with as many points that were raised as I reasonably and properly can. As regards the numerous references to particular RTE programmes or series of programmes I recognise quite well that this is the main opportunity Deputies get of expressing their views on such matters. However, the Oireachtas in its wisdom gave wide powers to the RTE Authority for the control of programmes and concurrently removed that power in relation to the day-to-day affairs from the Minister.

I retain responsibility for general oversight of the manner in which the Authority carries out its statutory functions, as well as for matters such as the approval of the time fixed for advertisements. In the exercise of my general oversight I would be very slow indeed to interfere with a considered judgement of the Authority, which is a body of responsible people, unless there were serious or compelling reasons for me to do so. The discussion which has taken place here on the various aspects of RTE's activities has been most interesting. Deputies have expressed themselves with a freedom and lack of inhibition about interference with the Authority which I have listened to with respect. Indeed, I might add, with envy, because I should not dare criticise the Authority in such terms if I wanted to, knowing quite well that charges would be levelled against me. On the whole the consensus of opinion has been that while one item or another may be criticised and while some facets of the Authority's policies are not liked by certain Deputies, the Authority is considered to be doing a good job. Deputies will understand that it would not be right for me to express views on the various programme matters raised but I have no doubt whatsoever that every word which has fallen from the lips of Deputies during the course of this long debate will be avidly read by members of the Authority and by the Director General and that all suggestions made by Deputies will receive appropriate consideration.

I shall shortly go on to deal with points raised on various subjects during the debate but clearly it will not be possible for me to deal in my reply with all the points made in a 22 hour debate. If I omit any point of special interest to a Deputy I should be very happy to get in touch with him if he will let me know what his wishes are.

Before getting down to the detailed matters raised I should like to make a general observation about the Department's services. In referring to Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins's comments I have praised our postal services highly and although some Deputies expressed criticisms there has been much favourable comment which was not confined to this side of the House alone. I do not make any claim in regard to all services provided by the Department whether postal, telephone, telegraph, telex, savings banks or any others that full efficiency has been attained. Neither my senior officials nor I feel there is any reason for complacency. We fully appreciate that we live in a highly competitive world and it is essential that post office services are provided for the community with the maximum efficiency and at the lowest cost. I can assure the House that continuous efforts are being devoted to working towards these ideals. Perfection will never be attained but our job in the post office is constantly to work towards it. In my opening statement I described some of the fields in which we are working towards greater efficiency and I should like to assure the House there will be no relaxation of the Department's efforts. I should like to go further than that and say that these efforts will be intensified in an attempt to offset part of the tide of rising costs.

To begin with postal matters, my first note has lost some of its topical interest because of the settlement of the British Post Office strike but I shall deal with the points raised as they will appear in the record and the absence of a reply might mislead people as to what my Department has done. Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins said that people posting letters to Ireland from the United States had been told there was a post office strike here. Deputy Desmond said there seemed to be an impression at international level that there was a postal strike here and a person in Australia had difficulty in sending a telegram to this country for that reason. We did have complaints of this nature about the USA and Canada and we immediately advised these administrations by telephone that the British Post Office strike did not affect mails for this country. We ensured that corrective action was taken by the administrations concerned. In the case of nine other countries in regard to which we had reason to believe a misunderstanding of the position might exist we advised them by telex or cable of our routing arrangements for mails to them and asked them to confirm their arrangements to us. The Australian authorities were aware that the British postal strike did not affect us and, in fact, numerous telegrams were received from Australia during the period of the strike. However, in order to put the matter beyond all doubt, a message was sent to the Australian telegraphic administration confirming the position.

Deputy Desmond asked how much the British post office strike cost us; I understand our postal revenue is down about £250,000 as a result of the strike there.

Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins mentioned a digest of the new decimal postage charges. A new digest of postal and telegraphic charges is available at all post offices, including the post office here in Dáil Éireann.

Deputy Tully raised a number of points in regard to increasing philatelic sales. Our philatelic policy is under review at present and the points mentioned by the Deputy are among those which will be taken into consideration.

Deputy Tully and Deputy Bruton suggested that my Department should request other Government Departments to post early in the day and to avoid heavy postings on Fridays. We have, of course brought the desirability of early posting to the notice of Government Departments and other heavy posters on several occasions and special collection services have been arranged. I should like to assure Deputy Tully that the position is kept under continual review.

Mr. Tully

It seems such a simple thing to do and it would save a great deal of trouble.

Mr. G. Collins

Several Deputies referred to the confusion caused for sorters and postmen where streets are given similar names and distinguished only by the description of crescent, road, avenue, drive, close, and so on. I certainly would welcome a change of practice to eliminate this confusion and I hope local authorities will give some thought to the operations of the post office when naming streets in future.

Deputy Coogan mentioned a related problem, namely, the failure of many people to display a number on their front gates as well as on the door of their houses. I think he could have gone further and pointed out that many people, particularly in urban areas, do not show any number at all. This is inconsiderate behaviour which greatly hampers the work of delivering mail. The regular postman gets to know the various names and locations but, if he is absent for any reason and a substitute has to take over temporarily, the delivery of mail for the whole neighbourhood is slowed down. I would appeal to everyone to show consideration both for the post office and for their neighbours by displaying the number allocated by the local authority in a prominent position. We all know that local authorities have power to compel occupiers to display the number allocated and, when people fail to respond to appeals for co-operation, it is a matter for the local authority to follow up.

Dr. O'Connell

The local authorities in Dublin are themselves the biggest offenders. They will not number flats properly and doctors have the same problem as postmen.

Mr. G. Collins

Deputy Tully rather shocked me by his statement that his address was too long and he decided on a short name for his house: "Iona". I notice this is the address given in the Directory of State Services and I hope I am not doing the Deputy an injustice when I say I would have expected that an address at St. Columba's Villas, Laytown East, would have been allocated a street number by the local authority.

Mr. Tully

It is not a local authority house.

Mr. G. Collins

I am surprised that a Deputy, so concerned as Deputy Tully genuinely is for the welfare of postmen, should neglect to use a street number, resorting instead to a name.

Mr. Tully

I live in a very small place.

Mr. G. Collins

Perhaps he is showing a street number as well and, if he is, I apologise to him.

Deputy Tully and others mentioned standard-sized letter box apertures in houses. We have had very few complaints about the unsuitability of letterboxes but I shall look into the matter and, if necessary, representations will be made to the proper authority.

Mr. Tully

And the positioning of them.

Mr. G. Collins

Very good. Deputy Cott referred to postal mechanisation. Mechanical equipment for postal purposes is very, very expensive and requires a large volume of traffic to justify its installation. The Central Sorting Office is mechanised for the handling of parcels and the conveyance of mail bags. More sophisticated equipment for the coding and automatic sorting of letters is still very much at the development stage. The Department is keeping in touch with developments in this field but, at the moment, there is little scope for mechanisation of sorting outside Dublin.

Deputy O'Donovan referred to the disappearance of late night collection boxes in Dublin. All postal boxes are cleared at 8 p.m. and a further collection is made at 10.30 p.m. from 76 boxes at selected points throughout the city and suburbs. At the GPO, St. Andrew's Street and the Central Sorting Office further collections are made during the night. The final collection is at 3 a.m. All the collections are despatched to the provinces, to Britain and for first delivery in Dublin the following morning. I am informed that there has been no worsening of the standard or scope of the late night collection service in Dublin.

The Deputy also expressed the view that the present level of postal and telephone charges should remain constant for many years. No one would be more anxious than I to have this happy situation but the Deputy must realise that no Minister enjoys having to increase charges for post office services. I certainly did not enjoy having to increase charges some months ago. However, it would be quite unrealistic to expect the present rates, which involve a loss of £1 million per annum, to continue indefinitely. Every effort will be made to pull down losses by increased efficiency and possibly even, if public opinion is prepared to accept some deterioration in postal standards, by introducing economy measures affecting services. If costs and, in particular, wages continue to increase year by year it would be quite unrealistic to expect in a labour intensive service to offset increased costs by economy measures or by greater efficiency.

Deputy Tully raised the question of a later start to deliveries during the winter months to obviate the necessity of postmen delivering in darkness. I think his colleague, Deputy Dr. O'Connell, was on the other side; he does not agree with Deputy Tully. As Deputies are aware, Britain has decided to revent to GMT next winter. The question as to whether this country should do so is now under consideration and, if it is decided to revert to GMT, this will certainly meet the Deputy's point. The Deputy also complained about the supply of lamps to postmen for use on dark mornings. The type of lamp used up to now has gone out of production and, as a temporary measure, it has been necessary to use an ordinary bicycle lamp with a strap to fasten the lamp to the postman's uniform. Numerous efforts have been made to obtain a suitable type of lamp and there are prospects now of being able to come up with something appropriate. I hope it will be possible to provide this improved type lamp by next winter.

Deputy Cott suggested delivery into roadside letterboxes. As far as I am concerned such an arrangement would undoubtedly reduce delivery costs but there are problems as well as attractions associated with it. It has been considered in the past and is again being considered at present.

Mr. Tully

It might be all right where the houses would be a couple of miles apart. One of the Minister's predecessors suggested it.

Mr. G. Collins

I am not suggesting anything.

Mr. Tully

I know the Minister is not.

Mr. G. Collins

Deputy P. Belton mentioned that the Coolock area is at present served only by a post office located in a caravan. This is not quite so. The sub-office in Coolock village has been closed since December 1969 following the resignation of the former sub-postmistress and post office business is being conducted in a caravan staffed by post office clerks as no other accommodation can be obtained. The sub-office appointment was advertised three times, the last occasion being October 1970, and no candidate with suitable accommodation has been forthcoming. The vacancy will be readvertised at a suitable opportunity in the near future. In the meantime, two new sub-offices have been approved for the Coolock area; the first was opened in the Edenmore shopping centre last year and the second will open shortly in the Northside shopping centre. When this office is operational the area will be well served in the matter of post office facilities.

Deputy Bruton inquired whether the main services are costed separately with a view to adjusting the charges for them. Broadly speaking, the three main services—postal, telegraph and telephone—are costed separately for the purpose mentioned by the Deputy. If he refers to the commercial accounts for the Department he will find separate income and expenditure for them and also for agency services for other Government Departments.

Mr. Tully

I wanted to ask the Minister a question about which I gave him notice.

Mr. G. Collins

Yes, I am coming to that. The telegraph service is uneconomic and has never paid its way but the losses are made good from the profits on the telephone service. In principle we try to ensure that the postal service independently of the telecommunications service, will pay its way but it is so highly labour intensive that when wages are advancing rapidly this ideal is extremely difficult to achieve. Coming now to Deputy Tully's question, I should like to thank him for giving me notice of this question. His question is in connection with agency services; are we charging enough for these and when were these charges last reviewed? Well, we are quite satisfied that our charges are correct, that they cover our costs, and the latest review was in the financial year 1969-70.

Mr. Tully

Thank you very much.

Mr. G. Collins

Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins mentioned the case of a savings bank depositor who lost his book and reported the matter immediately but nevertheless three withdrawals were made from the account. The House will appreciate that it is quite difficult to prevent withdrawals by a dishonest person who steals or finds a depositor's book, because withdrawls can be made at about 1,400 different savings bank post offices, but every week an up-to-date "stop payment" list is issued to all post offices. The latest such list contains 80 entries concerning books which have been reported stolen or lost. This system has proved reasonably effective but Deputies will realise that a fraudulent withdrawal can be made before a particular deposit book can be included in the "stop payment" list and that during times of pressure, such as during the recent banks dispute, a paying officer may occasionally make a repayment in respect of a book on that list. All cases of fraudulent withdrawals are specially investigated and the depositor does not suffer any loss once the Department are satisfied that the withdrawal was made by somebody else without the depositor's knowledge or consent.

Mr. Crowley

Does the Minister not think that the post office should give the same type of service as, say, the American Express, in regard to travellers cheques, that they should protect the depositor against theft or loss?

Mr. G. Collins

From what I have said the Deputies who were listening to me should have understood that we take every reasonable precaution to protect depositors and if we are satisfied that the withdrawals were made by somebody without the knowledge or consent of the depositor we make good the loss.

Mr. Crowley

The onus is on the depositor to prove that.

Mr. G. Collins

Deputy Coughlan suggested that there should be no limit on withdrawals on demand from post office savings accounts. The present limit of £30 was increased from £10 as recently as January, 1969. This was a substantial extension and I am not aware of any public demand for a further extension. The proposal has the obvious disadvantage that the withdrawal on demand system involves considerable risk of fraud and that any increase in the limit would increase that risk. It would also increase the security risk at sub-offices because of the larger amounts of cash that would have to be held. Some changes and improvements in the position for depositors are under consideration, including an increase in the frequency of on demand withdrawals, possibly say every three days instead of once weekly as it is now. This change if approved will go far to meet what Deputy Coughlan had in mind.

A number of Deputies made suggestions about the manner of payment of pensions and allowances and suggested they might be posted to the recipients and that some of the children's allowances might be paid in kind. These are matters for the Minister for Social Welfare and I assume the Deputies will pursue them with the Minister.

The question of the compilation of the electoral register mentioned by Deputy Coughlan is one for the Minister for Local Government.

Deputy Moore suggested that the appearances of sub-post offices should be brightened. The provision and maintenance of sub-post office accommodation is the responsibility of the subpostmaster. Sub-offices are inspected regularly and attention is drawn to the need to improve the appearance of offices where this is considered necessary. The Deputy also suggested the painting of sub-post offices a uniform colour for identification purposes. Sub-postmasters are not required to paint their offices a uniform colour because sub-post offices are invariably located in shops in which other business is conducted. Shop fronts are frequently constructed of materials which do not require to be painted and therefore it would be impracticable to have all sub-post offices the same colour. For identification purposes the names of sub-post offices together with the words "Post Office" are shown both in Irish and English on a notice board outside each office. In the case of some offices in towns in which there is also a departmentally staffed post office only the words "Post Office, Oifig an Phoist" are shown. It is considered that these notice boards provide sufficient indication of sub-post offices.

Mr. Tully

Just imagine somebody in the country who is providing a room for a sub-post office having to paint his shop front a uniform colour, all for the few bob you are giving him.

Mr. G. Collins

Deputy Cooney urged the early introduction of Giro. The possibility of introducing post office Giro has been the subject of a number of references in debates as well as in a number of parliamentary questions in recent years. Briefly post office Giro is a current account system with cheque facilities operated by the post office. Many West European countries operate such a system. There is now one in Great Britain which has not yet been successful from a financial point of view.

Dr. O'Connell

What about Europe?

Mr. G. Collins

Giro would be a major innovation and serious financial and organisational problems would have to be solved. The view has been taken that until such time as there is a strong public demand for such a service and a clear indication that the service could pay its way, the introduction of Giro, although a possibility to be kept in mind, cannot be given a high priority among the demands on the Department's and the State's resources.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.