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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 29 Apr 1971

Vol. 253 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Financial Resolution No. 8: General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.
—(Minister for Finance).

As I have said, 1970 was a bleak year for this country on the economic scene and on the political front. The Government stand indicted for their disregard for the economy and the state of the nation while they were fighting their internal battles. As a result, we now have a situation where we are careering into a very dangerous position. The Minister said we are within 18 months of joining the EEC.

In this context, it is interesting to note what a previous Parliamentary Secretary said: "Fianna Fáil are going into the gutter." It is a terrible thought that this Government are still controlling the country and still have responsibility for negotiating our application for EEC membership. Cannot one imagine that while crucial discussions could be taking place on our EEC application, the Minister engaged in these negotiations on behalf of the country could be called away because his party are fragmented, because of troubles within the party? There is no doubt the party are crumbling and I think it is terrible that such a party should have responsibility. By holding on to power they are denying the people the democratic right to elect a responsible Government. No party who have shown themselves to be so bad and so incompetent should cling to power.

This has all become obvious to us when we read the dismal picture prepresented in the Review for 1970 and Outlook for 1971. I got the impression that the Government party have been so embroiled in their own affairs that they said: “Let the civil servants run the country.” Fianna Fáil were not concerned about the country. It is unfair for Ministers to expect civil servants to take this responsibility. We saw recently how a Minister, because he blundered, because the Cabinet blundered, tried to shift the blame to the Civil Service. In circumstances like these, how can civil servants have confidence in Ministers?

There are 7,900 more people unemployed this year representing a percentage of 7.2. We must look at this figure and remember that we are talking about human beings. We have seen companies closing down and their workers, after years of service, thrown on the rubbish heap, unemployable from then on. Deputies are being constantly beseiged by such people looking for work and finding it nearly impossible to get it. The problem is getting worse. If this Government had gone altogether things would not be so bad. All they have done is to take casual looks at the situation and in the process the ship of State has been allowed to founder. Again, the Minister for Finance this year has not come in with any new proposals about employment. They have admitted that the Third Programme has failed, and it is interesting to read what they say in there view which I mentioned earlier:

It is not now expected that the rate of growth projected in the Third Programme will be realised.

Exactly the same words were used in the Third Programme. The review goes on:

The increase in overall employment also seems likely to fall short of expectations.

That is an admission that things have been going really wrong. Not too long ago, when the present Taoiseach was Minister for Finance, he came back and asked what had gone wrong with his Budget. I have no hesitation in saying that unless there is a Supplementary Budget between July and October this is the last Fianna Fáil Budget. When they come back with an autumn Budget it will be the same question: "What went wrong with the other Budget?"

Everything went wrong last year. We have seen that higher food prices and increased taxation combined were responsible for 60 per cent of the increase in consumer prices in 1970 and the emphasis now is on further increased taxation. We cannot say our people were overspending. The banks have said:

Domestic demand expanded in the course of the year but the volume of sales only increased by 1½ per cent.

The volume of consumer expenditure rose by 1½ per cent as against 4½ per cent in 1969, according to the Irish Banking Review. When the brakes were put on last year, they really worked. We cannot attack the people saying they were overspending when we see the disastrous effects of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement. Now that we have had an opportunity of looking at how that agreement has been operated, it is interesting to note that the inward flow of imports, competitive with the production of domestic industry, has been accelerated sharply. In 1967 it was 6 per cent; in 1968 it increased to 24 per cent and in 1969 to 28 per cent. The trade gap is up to £65.75 million. It should be obvious that Britain has done well under this agreement. She has hoodwinked us. What we thought were concessions have been proved a myth. Britain's share of the domestic market has risen to 53.5 per cent in 1970. She has improved her position. We thought we were getting off well in the beginning. The position looked good. The Government convinced us that the agreement was perfect. We were told that we were a reactionary party who did not appreciate the benefits which would accrue from the agreement. We said that the agreement would prove disastrous. We have been proved right. We were harassing the Minister and asking him to have a complete review and to arrange for a new agreement. Britain is never slow to tear up agreements which do not suit her. We know this happened when she put on the special levies. Britain has shown no respect whatever for this country, if it did not suit her own economy. To openly violate the agreement by the imposition of special import levies was wrong. We said nothing could be done about it. It cost the country £3 million.

When we asked the Minister to arrange for a new agreement he said "No". We will finally have to arrange one. The Ministers were not farseeing enough to realise what would happen in this country. There has been increased redundancy. Factories have closed down. This is evident from newspaper reports and from reports on television and radio. Unemployment has increased. All this happened as a result of the Fianna Fáil agreement with Britain. I do not know what it takes to convince the Government that they are on the wrong road and are really plunging us into a serious economic situation. The Government have been vacillating for too long. At the moment it is not pleasant to say that one is a politician. The present Government have cast a slur on the legislators of this country.

People are inclined to identify all politicians with the Fianna Fáil Party. This is serious. Those who are anxious to play their part as legislators do not like the position. It is terrible to say to people that we are not responsible for the rogues. It is difficult to convince people that all Deputies are not tarred with the same brush.

There have been two major disputes in the past year, the cement strike and the bank strike. The Minister may argue and ask what right had he to intervene. My argument is that the strikes were finally settled at tremendous cost to this country. The Minister had a right and a duty in the interests of the economy to say: "Patch up your differences and solve your strike. The economy of the country is at stake and we cannot let this happen". We have seen the results. If the Minister is honest he will admit that things went haywire during the bank strike. There was unrestricted credit of £125 million instead of £75 million. There was disastrous consequences to companies and individuals and to the economy. We have only got provisional figures of what has happened and estimates of how bad things were.

Cement had to be imported as a result of the cement strike. Building stopped. Skilled workers went abroad. The consequences were enormous and for a long time no attempt was made to solve the strike. It is bad that a company director should be irresponsible enough to go on holidays abroad in such a situation. Such irresponsible conduct should not be condoned. There was a question of investigation into the cost of both of these strikes. Both strikes started over a year ago and we have heard nothing so far. If we have an inquiry we should have a report of its findings. Much could be learned which would benefit other companies and their employees. We would like to know what went wrong. There was a bank strike in 1966 and last year and it is likely that another bank strike could occur within a year or two. Much acrimony has developed.

The Minister for Finance declared a prices and incomes policy, with emphasis on wages. The Minister was vague and ambiguous about the prices part of it. He would not come forward with proper proposals for a prices policy. The Minister for Industry and Commerce wriggles his way out of questions on the number of inspectors which his Department have. Prices have spiralled. We were fooled. Decimalisation resulted in a considerable increase in prices. We heard the Minister say that he would not back down for anyone and then, when I asked him personally if he would withdraw in order to let all sides come together on prices he said "No". Finally, the Minister had to withdraw.

When we had an agreement.

You did not say that.

Is the Deputy saying that we would have got an agreement?

Yes, I told the Minister this.

I can tell the Deputy that people who negotiated that agreement told me otherwise and any commonsense will show it. The Deputy does not want to give any credit.

You were pigheaded about it. You said you would not negotiate with anyone.

The Deputy must not be personal.

I am telling the Minister something that he does not like to hear. He does not like to be told he has made a mistake. When I saw this dole order I knew it was the Minister for Finance who was responsible for it and I was proved right. When I saw it I said to myself that this was another blunder of the Minister for Finance.

The Deputy will never learn.

No, not as long as you cover up.

The Deputy did his damnedest to prevent the national wage agreement at the time and he has not learned yet.

I asked the Minister to withdraw the prices and incomes policy, that he was only heading for trouble if he persisted with it. He only laughed and said "No", he would not withdraw it. He was compelled to withdraw it.

He got an agreement.

He did not get any agreement at all.

The Deputy does not like that.

He did not get agreement. We have an Irish Congress of Trade Unions who are very responsible people. I take this opportunity of congratulating them on the wonderful work they are doing.

I agree.

Not enough tribute is paid to the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. What they did with the teachers and with the ESB workers was wonderful. Their work in this regard went without any credit being given to them. They told the Minister it was wrong to impose an incomes policy as he planned to do and as he said he would do.

When there was no agreement.

The Minister did not even wait to see whether there would be an agreement or not. They sat down to discuss this but the Minister came in here and tried to bulldoze this prices and incomes policy through the Dáil. I told him he was heading for trouble. The Minister can read the Dáil debates and he will see that I said: "You are heading for trouble. I am advising you to withdraw this now." He said: "Never". He was compelled to withdraw it. If ever there was a defeat for a Minister for Finance that was it. It showed that he would not see reason in the beginning. I can imagine him coming into the Cabinet about the dole order and saying: "Get all those people off the dole". I can assure you that this dole order was the fault of the Minister for Finance. The Minister for Social Welfare inferred that he was the guilty party but I have no doubt it was the blunder of this Minister for Finance. I will be proved right about this. I said a few years ago that the previous Minister for Finance should be dismissed. I said if I were in charge I would dismiss him. He was dismissed but for other obvious reasons.

The Deputy is always right.

I was right there. You can read it in the Official Report.

And in advance too.

I said that over two years ago. I told the then Minister for Finance that he was wrong. The present Minister considers he is never wrong. This is the divine right to rule attitude of the Fianna Fáil Party. They are never wrong.

When is the Deputy wrong?

The Fianna Fáil Party are a pompous, arrogant, party. They try to identify the interests of the country with the interests of the party. Their whole attitude is completely wrong. They have got this peculiar attitude that everyone in this country should join the Fianna Fáil Party.

Not Deputy O'Connell, please.

The Chair would like the Deputy to come to the Budget now.

If you can read or write you will be a Minister over there.

Deputy O'Connell on the Budget.

It sounds to me like sour grapes.

I do not know what the Minister means by sour grapes. I do not believe in being destructive. It is very important to tell a Minister when he is wrong and to ask him: "Why do you not do it this way?" You can make suggestions and Ministers should be prepared to listen to you. They should be prepared to say in reply to questions: "There might be something wrong in that. I will have another look at it." A Minister said to me recently: "If anybody tries to pressurise me I will not give in at all". That is very wrong. I remember when the ex-member of the Party, Deputy Leneghan, in the turnover tax days, in 1963, voted with the Government. Traders and people in his area felt he should not vote for the turnover tax and when they went to see him he said they were threatening him.

I think we are getting away from the Budget now.

My duty as a legislator here is to point out when things are wrong, to put up constructive suggestions and to say, when I think a Minister is really trying to bulldoze something which is not in the interests of the country: "You are wrong". I have a right to do that.

The Deputy will appreciate that the Chair's position is to try to keep the debate within the rules of order.

That is quite true. I have studied the present Minister for Finance from the first moment I came into this House. I am not far wrong in those things. I went to the Taoiseach about another Member of this House and I very responsibly told him something about him. He did not take my advice then but he acted later in removing the Whip. I am not talking about Deputy Leneghan now. I was not wrong then and I was not wrong about the previous Minister for Finance. When I went privately to the Taoiseach about another Minister who was showing his mitts a little too much I was proved right.

Is the Deputy ever wrong?

The Chair must ask the Deputy to come to the Budget.

I told the Taoiseach at that time that this particular man needed treatment. The Taoiseach's treatment was very different from what I advocated.

The Deputy must appreciate that this is far removed from the Budget.

I appreciate that but I am showing that Ministers are very wrong in their attitude. A party in power too long become arrogant and pompous. The Fianna Fáil Party were a good party initially but they are too long in office and they have now become sterile and arrogant. All power corrupts and this is what has happened to this party who are now rent apart.

You hope.

There is not doubt about it. I notice by the Cheshire cat grin that the Minister thinks he has solved the problem of the party by this Budget, this master stroke of his, to rush over last Tuesday night and prepare this new sheet in duplicating paper and say: "Scrap the rest, I will show you how to do it". The Irish Times remarked that this is the first time in the history of this State that the estimate of receipts and expenditure was produced by duplicating methods. It was always printed before this. If anyone wished to make predictions about an election they could base it on that—a last minute switch by Deputy Colley in anticipation of a general election. Fianna Fáil do not want an election but when the trouble is within and when Deputy Blaney is likely to put a bomb under the Taoiseach there will be an election. The Minister for Finance knows I am telling the truth——

I should like to support the Deputy but I am afraid I cannot.

Will the Minister tell me why the document was duplicated? It was not printed as has been done every year since the foundation of the State. The printers have not been on strike. When we do not get a sensible and logical answer to this question we can assume there was a switch. This is what is wrong with Fianna Fáil. They will juggle and switch figures; they will do anything to remain in power. That is what they have done here.

If one reads the Fianna Fáil account of the economy and then reads the accounts of other people a very different picture emerges. Figures can be juggled and the people can be mesmerised and this is what has been done. "In expectation of increased buoyancy" is the key phrase——

That will be dealt with in this debate. The Deputy has been reading the wrong newspaper articles.

It is in expectation of a general election. It is bad for democracy and for our country when Fianna Fáil resort to such methods to stay in office. However, I have no hesitation in saying that this is the last Fianna Fáil Budget we will have— the death knell of the party has been sounded.

The Deputy said that last year.

I did not. I can honestly say that this time last year I thought Fianna Fáil would be in power for ever. I was despondent enough to think that Fianna Fáil would be still in power in our children's lifetime at least. I had no illusions about our party taking over government in the near future. What I say is factual. I do not have any political ambitions. Until 22nd April, 1970, it looked as if Fianna Fáil would be here for ever. I knew that the pre-election Budget of 1969 was a fraud but we could do nothing about it. What is depressing is the state of apathy that exists among the people——

I thought the Deputy would get around to that.

What is depressing is that they are inclined to think all legislators are tarred with the same brush. Before I became a Member of the Dáil I had no idea that the State was run in this manner. I might call myself a political neophyte—no member of my family has been in politics and I can look at this objectively. I was astonished to see the way business in the Dáil is manipulated—the switching of Private Members' motions and the attempts to declare them out of order when it suits the party in power. I would hope that with the end of this Government we might get back on the road to democracy. The spectacle of men fighting each other has not been pleasant.

I have frequently wondered what happened to the threatened internment measure——

We cannot discuss this on the Budget.

This is what the Government were involved in last year when they should have been concerned with the economy.

The Chair cannot allow the debate to be enlarged in this manner. The debate must be confined to the Budget.

The only reason I mentioned this was that the Government were preoccupied with it——

The Deputy should tell the truth. The last thing the Deputy wants to talk about is the Budget.

I shall certainly talk about the Budget. During the last year we had the Forcible Entry Bill—to protect the strong against the weak——

The Deputy knows the debate is confined to taxation expenditure, and financial policy.

It is my hope that the Government would confine themselves to that kind of work. They should not become paranoiacs. This paranoia is evident from the Taoiseach downwards. I read where the secretary of the Irish Transport and General Workers' Union said that it was a Budget without a policy——

That is the former Deputy Mullen of the Labour Party? Let us get this in context.

He is the secretary of the Irish Transport and General Workers' Union, a former member of the Labour Party in this House. He is still a member of this party. He is concerned with the workers and with the country. He considers this is a Budget without a policy and there is sense in that remark. If by some terrible misfortune the Government were to win the next election, I wonder how many more Programmes for Economic Expansion we would have. They scrap one and replace it with another.

There has been no policy outlined in this Budget and this is what is wrong. It is further evidence that it was done by burning the midnight oil. If we had some inside information about last Wednesday night it would make interesting reading. The Minister has asked me to talk about the concessions made in this Budget. Let us consider the 40p increase given to the non-contributory old age pensioners. The purpose of this increase was to try to bring these people to the level at which they were a year ago. They were not given any increase and this fact is forgotten. The cost of living has sored to such an extent that they had to get this increase to compensate for rising costs. Otherwise more people would have died of starvation.

The Minister thinks it is not true that old age pensioners living on their pensions suffer from malnutrition. The Minister had a duty and an obligation to increase this benefit. This is not a concession to these people. Because of the increased cost of living we had to prevent them from falling further behind. We did not improve the social services for them. All we did was compensate them for the increased cost of living.

Yesterday the Deputy voted against some of the Money Resolutions to make this possible.

I do not think we should put a new penny on the price of beer and I will tell the House why. An American psychiatrist said that if everyone took a can of beer a day there would be no need for psychiatrists. I am talking as a doctor when I say I believe that if people took a beer a day it would be good for them. They take it to keep from becoming depressed. If we make the price of beer so ridiculously high we will have a greater burden on the health services because people will be seeking tranquillisers.

The beer drinkers in the country will be glad to know that it is purely medicinal.

I am speaking as a Pioneer.

The Deputy is not a psychiatrist.

I have often recommended this to people. It is not a luxury. I am opposed to increasing the price of beer. I do not mind the price of spirits being increased. There is no harm in people taking a glass of beer or a pint of beer. It is wrong to tax it.

The Deputy did not vote against that. The Deputy voted against providing the money necessary to increase the pensions.

The Government sought the money from the wrong source to provide the benefits. It has been said that it would cost too much to collect a capital gains tax. The former Taoiseach, Mr. Lemass, asked why could we not have a capital gains tax. I would have thought that the Minister could have introduced such a tax, and I think he should have. We have introduced other taxes which it has been claimed were difficult to collect. I would vote against the source from which the Government are getting this money. If the Minister told me that they would catch the land speculators who make fortunes and do not pay any tax, I would be with Fianna Fáil all the way. I have no hesitation in saying that. No matter what my party said I would still vote for Fianna Fáil if they could catch the people who can live well without working and who can enjoy holidays abroad three or four times a year because they sell land and make fortunes. The Government know this is happening and that they are not paying any tax. I would vote with the Government on that. If they could catch them I would be happy.

Does the Deputy think we would not?

I would stand on the same platform with the Minister.

Not that, please.

I would support him on that.

Move over to the right.

The Government did not go to the right source.

The Labour Party voted against the corporation profits tax provision. The Deputy did not.

I voted with the Government on that because I felt that what they were doing was right. Whether I was right was another thing, but I do not think they will expel me for that.

If they attempt to expel him the Deputy should tell us.

I am pleased with the concession for parents with children in hospital. I will give credit where credit is due and I admire the Minister for this. Many of us may not realise how important this is, but it is terribly important. As a doctor I know of children who have been in hospital for months. I had a letter from a person in Kerry asking me to visit her daughter in hospital. She did not know me. Her daughter was about 10 years of age and had been in St. Steeven's Hospital for about eight months. It is pathetic when parents are unable to visit their children and the traumatic effect on the children is very serious. Years later they suffer from nerves and neuroses.

This provision is really good. I introduced a resolution at our annual conference calling for this and suggesting that we should put pressure on the Government. I must admit that the Government did it without pressure. I had asked for it previously but as a party we did not have to put pressure on the Government on this. I am de lighted that they introduced it, and more power to them for doing so. It is a very humane and important provision. What it will mean to the children, and to the people whose children are so far from home, is more than even the Minister realises. I tried to reckon the train fare for a person whose child is in Portrane and I wondered how she would manage to visit the child once a week. Now her problem is solved, and this is great. I hope there will be no administrative barriers and no obstacles. The intention is good and I should hate to hear of administrative obstacles.

The increased allowance to deserted wives is important and also the allowance for unmarried mothers. Too many unmarried mothers are trying to manage on their own and finding it very difficult. They feel a sense of shame. Does the Minister know that a number of them never apply for children's allowances because they are afraid of a leak in the Department? Before I came into this House I found the Department excellent in dealing with these cases. They allowed us to put wrong information on the certificates. The person in charge was very considerate and very humane. I wonder could some way be found by which they could claim the allowance without divulging all the details. I know this is fraught with all sorts of dangers and difficulties. Many of these people will not admit that they have children born out of wedlock and it might be possible for them to claim the allowance without disclosing all the information.

The increase in the price of drink will do untold harm to our tourist industry. It is now becoming obvious to tourists that this is not a country to be visited if they are looking for a normal holiday. Costs have gone up out of all proportion. Prices are very high. Is there any price control over hotel meals? The prices on the menus are changed regularly. With their prices the hoteliers are destroying themselves. Someone told me about an hour ago that there are 20 hotels for sale in Bray alone. I was astonished to hear that.

10 per cent.

There has been a considerable increase in the number of hotels for sale during the past year.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 4th May, 1971.
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