asked the Minister for Education if he will make a statement on the outcome of the representations made to him by members of the Dáil that he should meet a representative deputation from the staff and students of the National College of Art; and if he will state the date on which the new governing body for this College is likely to come into being.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - National College of Art.
28.
The Deputy will recollect that I indicated my willingness to meet deputations from the staff and students provided such deputations were balanced and representative. An officer of my Department indicated to the students the type of deputation which I would regard as fulfilling these conditions. A meeting of students on the 5th of this month purported to elect representatives. I was not prepared to accept the manner of election or that the deputation proposed by the students as a result thereof was either balanced or representative. I had this information conveyed to the students who have now proposed a deputation of a more representative nature. I am prepared to meet this deputation. I am awaiting a list of the names of the proposed deputation from the teachers.
As I indicated on 29th April last, I hope to be in a position to seek approval for the introduction of legislation in the current session setting up a governing body for the college. Until this legislation has been passed by the Oireachtas I cannot say when it is likely that the new governing body will be established. It is my intention to have it established as soon as possible after I am empowered to do so.
In arriving at the decision in relation to the balance or otherwise of this deputation which the Minister has purported to judge himself, did he receive a report from his senior representative who is now in the college? Further, would the Minister please inform us what criteria were used in deciding whether the composition of that originally proposed deputation was balanced? Surely we are entitled to know.
I was concerned with having a deputation from which I would be likely to get various views and not one particular type of view. When I saw the composition of the original deputation it was obvious to me that it would be very much like the deputation I met on a previous occasion and from which nothing of any worth resulted. I had suggested and, I think, with some reason, that the various schools in the College of Art should have representation on this deputation so that I would have the views of those in each of the various schools. Ultimately this was what the students agreed to.
I gather that the Minister does not propose to give representation on this deputation to night students. Night students constitute a considerable proportion of the students attending this college and, therefore, are as much entitled to representation on any deputation as are any other students.
Of course, it is not a matter for me to propose whether the students on this deputation be day students or night students but if the night students would like to meet me I certainly would be willing to meet them.
With reference to this deputation, would the Minister not agree that the method of election chosen by the students was a perfectly normal and straightforward one? Ten people were selected by 60 per cent of the students attending and they were selected by a democratic process. Would the Minister not agree also that his proposal for equal representation for each department would involve a distortion because some departments have seven members while others have 45? I ask these questions merely to clarify the position because the Minister would appear to have reflected on the method of election. The students have gone to great trouble to meet his requirements even at the expense of rendering less democratic their method of choosing their representatives. Would the Minister not agree further that the original method chosen was a democratic method and that he has forced the students to modify it so that it is less democratic?
I would not agree that it is less democratic. It will give me the views of the students from the various schools and I might say also that the result of the original election appeared to me to be lopsided when, in fact, we got a very high proportion from one particular school and a very small number from each of the others.
Would the Minister not agree that many election results appear to be lopsided? We thought the last election was very lopsided but we accepted it as being democratic. It is for the students to choose representatives and not for the Minister to impose his view as to whom they ought to choose.
Would the Minister not accept that his attitude to this matter is both extraordinary and highhanded and, I might say, not conducive to bringing about a lessening of the cynicism of such students towards the Department and ministerial involvement in this question? Surely the Minister should have accepted that when a large body of students get together and use the one-man-one-vote system in democratically electing deputation, he should not come to Parliament and say that it was obvious to him that the deputation was unbalanced and would serve no useful purpose? The Minister promised to meet them but he has not met them yet—he did not meet the original deputation— but he says it is unbalanced. I must confess that the situation appears to me to be quite extraordinary.
I think the Minister has inherited ex-Deputy Boland's talent.
The Deputy is being rather simple about this. What I said was I would meet a balanced deputation.
But the Minister decides what is "balanced".
When does this——
I am calling Question No. 29. We cannot debate this matter all day.
I cannot raise questions on the Adjournment today.
To be quite frank about it, I am not too happy about it but I have accepted it.
When will this new, revised, emasculated deputation meet the Minister?
This reasonably balanced deputation will meet the Minister, I hope, within a week.
That will be progress.
Question No. 29.
(Interruptions.)
We can sympathise with the Deputies opposite. They have a captive audience and they must play up to it.
29.
asked the Minister for Education if he is aware that the plaster casts allegedly destroyed recently by students in the National College of Art were donated by the Somerset School of Design in 1848; that a three-man French committee headed by Monsieur Druot and commissioned by the Department of Education in 1927 to report upon the College of Art reported that the casts were covered over with numerous layers of paint and that the successive layers of paint had caused the relief to disappear and that it was erroneous to paint plaster models; and if he is aware that these casts have been painted annually ever since; and, if so, if he will make a statement on the matter.
It is not a fact that the plaster casts of the statues to which the Deputy refers have been painted over annually. Any painting over of the figures in recent years was done to obliterate the daubings and the vulgarisms and obscenities painted on them.
There is not in the records of the Department any copy of the report to which the Deputy refers and, therefore, I am unable to comment on it.
Lest, however, it should be thought that the estimate which I gave of the cost over the past year of making good the damage caused by students in the National College of Art related to the destruction of plaster casts I wish to give the Deputy a break-down of the cost:
|
(a) Making good woodwork and repainting |
£1,000 |
|
(b) Making good damage to partition, heaters, shelving and floor covering |
£300 |
Since I last spoke in the House on this question I have received the following estimate of making good further damage:
|
(1) Painting over slogans in main hall |
|
|
(2) Painting over slogans in toilet and cloakroom |
|
|
(3) Repairing damage to back entrance door and to front door panel (side entrance) |
£350 |
Am I to understand from those figures that these are component parts in the figure of £5,000 which the Minister gave in the Dáil two weeks ago?
No, I refer in these figures to the damage done in this year. The £5,000 was in relation to the casts. That occurred two years ago.
Do not go back too far. People began a civil war which cost a lot of lives.
What has the reply to do with the question? Who asked anything about this? The Minister was asked about the plaster casts?
I gave the information about the plaster casts on a previous occasion. What, in fact, I was asked here was in relation to the painting over of the plaster casts. I have answered that. The Deputy should read the question and listen carefully to the answer.
The Minister said on the 29th April in this House that plaster casts to the value of £5,000 were destroyed in 1969. He has not produced any evidence to substantiate this. I ask him either to produce his evidence now from artistic experts or else withdraw an allegation which has damaged art students in the eyes of the public and in the eyes of my colleague, Deputy Murphy, who is the epitome of the public eye.
And Deputy O'Hara.
Broadly speaking, would the Minister not agree that he draws his picture of art students more from the opera, La Boheme, than from reality?
No. It might be more pleasant for me if I could draw it from that opera but, in fact, I am drawing it from reality. The valuation of the destroyed casts was given by my art advisers and I am willing to accept their judgment.
By the Minister's advisers? By administrative civil servants?
No. I have pointed out that it was by my art advisers.
Who are they?
The Deputy wants to appoint them? Should the Minister consult with the Deputy before he nominates them?
This would appear to me to be the position.
The Minister is not prepared to say.
The Deputies are very concerned about making a good impression here today and I am sure they are doing reasonably well.
30.
asked the Minister for Education if he will state in respect of each of the years 1960-61, 1964-65, 1968-69, 1969-70 and 1970-71 in relation to the National College of Art, the amount provided for full-time and part-time salaries and allowances and the amount spent; and if he will explain any differences between the two figures.
The information sought by the Deputy is being furnished in the form of a tabular statement which, with the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to circulate with the Official Report.
Following is the statement:
National College of Art.
|
Amount provided for salaries and allowances of full- time staff |
Amount Spent |
|
|
£ |
£ |
|
|
60-61 |
14,473 |
13,525 |
|
1964-65 |
27,271 |
23,131 |
|
1968-69 |
40,293 |
30,429 |
|
1969-70 |
43,351 |
43,206 |
|
1970-71 |
57,199 |
46,375 |
NOTE: Provision was made in the 1970-71 estimates for additional staff. Because of the decision to transfer the control of the College to an independent governing board it was decided not to proceed with any additional permanent teaching appointments. A number of technical assistants for whom provision was made in 1970-71 did not take up duty until after the end of the financial year. Furthermore, the demand for part-time classes was not as great as had been expected.