asked the Minister for Education why the opening date of the Higher Education Institute in Limerick has been postponed for a further year.
40.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Limerick Higher Education Institute.
39.
Mr. O'Donnell
Mr. O'Donnell
asked the Minister for Education whether it will be possible to have first year courses, even of a limited nature, commenced in the Higher Education Institute in Limerick in October, 1971 so as to facilitate the large number of potential students who were planning to enter the institute in 1971; and if he will make a statement in the matter.
41.
asked the Minister for Education when positions on the staff of the Limerick Institute of Higher Education were advertised; the number of positions advertised; the conditions of employment offered; and the number of appointments made.
42.
asked the Minister for Education when planning permission was sought for the Limerick Institute of Higher Education; when it was granted; when tenders for the building were invited; and when the contract was signed.
43.
asked the Minister for Education if he is prepared to meet a representative committee of the citizens of the Limerick region to discuss the future of the Limerick Institute of Higher Education.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 39 to 43 together.
The establishment of the Institute for Higher Education in Limerick was authorised on the clear basis that it would primarily be a technologically orientated institute while at the same time catering for a significant element of the humanities. Without laboratories or workshops it could not possibly conform to the basis on which its establishment was authorised.
Furthermore, if the institute is to have national standing and esteem it must be seen not to be commencing its operations on a piecemeal basis simply to meet a demand which apparently carries with it no understanding of the huge task involved in getting such an institute properly off the ground.
Also, it could not possibly be allowed to commence courses without some indication as to the nature of the recognition that might subsequently be given to them by the National Council for Educational Awards, the legislation for the establishment of which is being drafted at present.
As regards Questions Nos. 41 to 43, this year's Estimates contain in relation to the institute provisions of £40,000 and £200,000 for current and capital expenditure, respectively.
Planning permission for the adaptation of Plassy House for the institute's purposes was sought on the 5th February, 1971, and was granted on the 17th February. Planning permission for the total development of the Plassy site was applied for on the 23rd April, 1971.
Staff cannot be recruited for the institute until the courses to be provided are finally determined.
In the circumstances which I have outlined, I do not consider that any useful purpose would be served by my meeting a deputation to discuss the future of the institute at the present time.
Mr. O'Donnell
Arising from the Minister's reply——
Deputy Herbert rose.
Deputy O'Donnell.
Mr. O'Donnell
If Deputy Herbert wishes to ask supplementaries, he will have to table questions. Anybody who knows the background to this matter will realise that the Minister's reply is nothing more than sheer bluff. Is the Minister aware that on 24th April, 1969, the then Minister for Education, Deputy Lenihan, in a letter to the project committee said that agreement was reached and that the opening date would be September 1971? Further, is the Minister aware that in a letter, dated 19th November, 1970, to the chairman of the Limerick Project Committee, he himself confirmed that the institute would open in 1971? Also, on the 17th January of this year in a public statement that was reported in the newspapers, the Minister for Justice confirmed that the institute would open in September, 1971? How can the Minister reconcile these categorical assurances from three different Ministers to the people of the Limerick region with the mealymouthed reply that he has given now?
Hear, hear.
I accept that what the Deputy says in relation to the letters is a fact. Nobody regrets more than I that it is not possible to start this project this year——
Mr. O'Donnell
Will the Minister say why?
Will the Deputy please allow me to reply?
Mr. O'Donnell
Why is it not possible?
I have given the reason in my reply.
He is going to give it now.
Order.
I have already given it.
That is only an excuse.
Mr. O'Donnell
The Minister did not reply to Question No. 40.
I regret very much that it has not been possible to open the institute this year. I have already explained that. I have already pointed out on a number of occasions that it is vitally important that this institute should get off the ground properly. Remember, this is something new in Irish education.
Mr. O'Donnell
Why did the Minister not say that last November?
It is vitally important not only for Limerick but also for the country that it should get off the ground properly.
Why has it not?
Bogged down for want of money.
Therefore, when I was given advice and had studied this matter very carefully and taken a long time over it—because I investigated all possible means by which it could be opened this year—I finally came to the conclusion that it would be wrong of me for the sake of those who would be likely to attend that college, to open it this year.
Deputy Herbert.
Mr. O'Donnell
Could the Minister give me one valid reason?
Would Deputy O'Donnell please resume his seat for a moment?
Mr. O'Donnell
I have tabled two questions, with respect to the Chair——
Would the Deputy please obey the Chair? Deputy Herbert.
Is the Minister aware that it is not the decision to defer the opening of the institute for 12 months that is causing great concern but it is the fact that degree courses would not be available from the outset and this is according to statements in local papers?
Mr. O'Donnell
Nonsense.
The only condition I would attach to the commencement of degree courses in September, 1972, is that they be in keeping with the purpose for which the institute was founded and that they be submitted beforehand for approval to the National Council of Educational Awards. The legislation for this is being drafted at present.
(Interruptions.)
Mr. O'Donnell
Deputy Herbert can table questions next week. He funked the meeting in Limerick on Monday night. Why did he not come to the meeting and say that? The Minister for Justice funked it.
(Interruptions.)
Deputy Clinton.
Would the Minister not explain what is the main obstacle? What exactly is preventing him from opening the institute? He has not attempted to explain this.
I have already given the reasons. I have pointed out that the advice I received from the Higher Education Authority was that the degree courses proposed by the Planning Board were not of themselves in keeping with the type of programme which An tÚdarás visualised for the Limerick Institute. The HEA went on to say that it would not be feasible to provide and equip laboratory workshop areas even in prefabricated buildings in time for commencement in 1971. Accordingly, it would not be possible to mount courses of a technical type by that date. Also the point is that to start with a mere two or three courses would cause the institute to be seen in the Limerick area as possibly not what was expected there. I am particularly interested, not only from the point of view of Limerick but also from the point of view of the nation, that we should get off the ground properly in this matter. I have now given Deputy Herbert my decision in relation to the degree courses.
Would the Minister give an assurance that if the legislation to set up the National Council of Educational Awards is not ready for the Limerick Institute he will set up that council on an ad hoc basis?
Mr. O'Donnell
He gave an assurance on 17th November, 1970. I have it here in writing. Assurances are no good; we want the college open.
(Interruptions.)
I shall consider that. At the same time, I want to make it clear that I would hope to introduce the legislation early in the next session and if we can get it through the Dáil expeditiously then the problem should be very much less——
As I understood the Minister, there is one principal obstacle and that is that the laboratories are not ready. Why are they not ready? This seems to be the crucial point? Where did the defect occur? The Minister expected them to be ready and he announced that the institute would open. They are not ready. Who is to blame and what is the reason for that?
Perhaps I would say that all concerned, the Minister, the Department and quite possibly those who are rightly concerned and understandably anxious to have this institute developed in Limerick did not recognise at the time the huge task involved in getting a project of this magnitude off the ground. From my experience of the whole situation it is obvious that it was not appreciated that this was a job which would take a very considerable time and which involved a very big development. I feel nobody recognised the task was as great as it turned out to be.
What advice, if any, was taken in the planning because if any expert advice were taken surely these difficulties need not have arisen? There are institutes of higher education in this and other countries that have been started and it would not be difficult to get information. What advice was taken?
I cannot give the Deputy that information in detail here but very considerable progress was made in a relatively short time. The director was appointed in January, 1970, a little over a year ago. The Planning Board was started in February, 1970. Negotiations for the purchase of the Plassy site began in February and the purchase was completed, as to legal formalities, in November, 1970. It was only in September, 1970, that the question of using the Plassy house came up. A tender was accepted for the renovation and reconstruction of it and the contractor is moving in. It must be accepted that very considerable progress was made.
Mr. O'Donnell
The Minister has messed it up.
No.
(Interruptions.)
Mr. O'Donnell
Does the Minister stand over his letter of 17th November?
I accept that these letters were written and were written in good faith but, unfortunately, we did not recognise how great the task was.
Mr. O'Donnell
One final supplementary question——
The Deputy should not play politics on a serious subject.
(Interruptions.)
Mr. O'Donnell
Could the Minister not now arrange to have even first year classes in Arts and Commerce which do not require laboratory work, started in September?
No. I am giving the Deputy an assurance that I have studied this very carefully. What I wanted to do was to start in the right way and at the same time not get involved in this type of difficulty. I wanted to start but felt that if I did I would be doing the wrong thing. I assure the Deputy that it was for no other reason.
Mr. O'Donnell
Would the Minister not consider the possibility of having First Arts this year?
I assure the Deputy I have studied every aspect of this.
I understand that one of the obstacles was that the proposals of the Planning Board were not acceptable to the Higher Education Authority. Could the Minister say in what way these proposals were, in view of the HEA; defective?
Generally speaking, they were not geared in the direction that had been originally laid down by the HEA when they said that the work of the institute should be based primarily on technological content. Of course, they also added: "with a significant element of the humanities." They were not happy about the programme proposed and when I studied all aspects of the matter and got all the advice available I felt I would be doing an injustice to the people of Limerick as well as to the people of Ireland by going ahead. I knew I would place myself in a very difficult position but I believed I was doing the right thing and that this the reason for my decision.
A final question—is the Minister aware that up to quite recently Deputy O'Donnell and the Fine Gael Party were completely opposed to this concept of higher education in Limerick?