Vol. 253 No. 13
asked the Minister for Education if his attention has been drawn to a report (details supplied) to the effect that his Department has proposed that four of the six members of the boards of management of community schools be nominated by the local bishop; if this report is correct; and if he will make a statement on the present state of the negotiations with the various interests involved concerning the community schools project.
46.
asked the Minister for Education if he will state the contents of the agreement reported to have been reached between his Department and the Catholic Hierarchy on the composition of the new community school boards; if he will indicate the measures of consultation between himself and the various interested parties prior to this decision being reached; and if further consultations are intended.
47.
asked the Minister for Education if he will make a statement on the present position with regard to the community school proposals.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 45, 46 and 47 together.
I would refer the Deputies to the statement which I published on 13th May outlining my proposals. With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, a copy of this statement will be incorporated in the Official Report. I have already emphasised that these are my proposals. The question of agreement with the Catholic Hierarchy does not arise. As I informed the House previously, I have had consultations with the Catholic Hierarchy, the IVEA and the Council of Managers of Catholic Secondary Schools. There have also been meetings with the teachers' organisations, the ASTI and the VTA. It is now intended to hold meetings in a number of areas throughout the country in which the proposals might be applied. This will provide a forum for obtaining the views of those immediately involved in each particular area.
Following is the statement:
Not for publication before 21.00 hours on 13th May, 1971
Government Information Bureau
The following statement is to-day being issued on behalf of the Minister for Education.
In connection with the consideration of the working document on community schools (copy herewith) the Minister for Education wishes to announce that following discussions with various interested parties it is his intention that the following proposals should form the basis for the establishment of these schools principally in areas where under existing arrangements educationally viable post-primary schools could not be established:
1. The Board of Management to consist of six members, four representatives nominated by the authorities of the secondary schools involved and two representatives nominated by the local Vocational Education Committee. All the members of the board to be drawn exclusively from the local community i.e. from amongst persons residing within the catchment area of the school and two of the four representatives nominated by the secondary school authorities to be parents of children in the school. Membership of the board to be for a period of five years. The board to elect one of its members to be chairman. The appointment of secretary to be a matter for the board save that in the event of the principal not being appointed as secretary to the board, he be entitled to attend and take part other than in a voting capacity in the meetings of the board except on certain occasions when the board may decide otherwise.
2. It is envisaged that the board would establish an advisory committee consisting of the principal, vice-principal, and representatives of the teaching staff to assist in the running of the school.
3. The site and building would be vested in three trustees nominated by the bishop of the diocese. One of these trustees to be taken from names furnished by the local Vocational Education Committee. The Minister for Education to be a party to the Deed of Trust.
4. The day to day running costs to be met by the Department of Education.
Community School.
1. The creation of community schools must be viewed against the background of Government policy in relation to post-primary schools and in particular the following aspects of that policy:—
(a) the provision of free post-primary education for all children irrespective of ability and without the use of selection procedures on transfer from primary to post-primary;
(b) the elimination of the barriers between secondary and vocational schools and the creation of a unified post-primary system of education;
(c) the provision of comprehensive facilities in each area of the country so as to cater for the varying aptitudes and abilities of pupils and to provide reasonable equalities of educational opportunity for all our children irrespective of the area of the country in which they reside or the means of their parents;
(d) the elimination of overlapping and duplication in the provision of teachers, buildings and equipment so that the available resources in manpower and finance may be utilised to best advantage and so make resources available to improve the level of services in our post-primary schools.
2. The optimum size for a post-primary school is a matter to which a lot of attention has been given both here and elsewhere. The Advisory Councils for Dublin and Cork have recommended the creation of school units of 400 to 800 pupils. OECD expressed the view a few years ago that the absolute minimum size was probably around the 450 mark. The Department's experience has been that in terms of the level of facilities which can be provided at a tolerable cost level, the optimum size is around 800 pupils. Generally the Department has accepted the views of the Dublin and Cork Advisory Councils and aims at the creation of school units of 400 to 800 pupils. It is accepted that given the present distribution of post-primary schools in this country, it will not always be possible, at any rate in the foreseeable future, to create school units of 400 to 800 pupils everywhere but there are a number of small towns throughout the country which at present have two or three post-primary schools with a total enrolment of something between 400 and 800 pupils. It is felt that in such areas a single post-primary school, if it could be achieved, would provide a better level of service to the area while at the same time removing the divisions which at present exist in our post-primary sectors and the difficulties to which these give rise.
3. On another level, there is growing acceptance throughout the world that education is a lifelong process and that second chance education must be provided at all levels. It would seem clear, therefore, that there will be very substantial development of adult education facilities over the next decade. Allied with this, there is in all countries a growing community consciousness and an increasing demand for school facilities (halls, gymnasia, meeting rooms, playing fields, swimming pools, etc.) to be made available out-of-school hours to voluntary organisations and the adult community generally.
4. Community schools are seen as resulting from the amalgamation of existing secondary and vocational schools or in city areas from the development of individual single schools instead of the traditional development of separate secondary and vocational schools. These schools would provide a reasonably full range of courses leading to Group Certificate, Intermediate Certificate and Leaving Certificate. The community school would provide adult education facilities in the area and subject to reasonable safeguards against abuse or damage to buildings, equipment, et cetera, would make facilities available to voluntary organisations and to the adult community generally.
5. The community school would be governed by a Board of Management consisting of representatives of the secondary school managers and the local Vocational Education Committee with an independent chairman who might be the bishop of the diocese or other agreed chairman or with the chairmanship rotating amongst the representative members of the board. The representation of any particular interest would vary depending on the circumstances of each case and would be a matter for negotiation with the interests involved. It might prove possible to include representatives of parents or industrial/commercial interests but this would be by way of nomination by the educational authorities involved or by some other way which was agreed by them in the course of negotiations. The site and buildings would be vested in trustees nominated by the parties involved.
6. The Board of Management would be responsible for the administration of the school and its educational policy. The board would be solely responsible for the appointment of staff, including principals, vice-principals and other posts of responsibility, subject to the usual Departmental regulations in regard to qualifications, overall quota of teachers, number, types and rates of pay to non-teaching staff. In the case of amalgamation existing permanent staff in the schools being amalgamated would be offered assimilation on to the staff of the community school if they applied for it. Rates of salary and allowances would be those applicable to secondary and vocational schools under the latest arrangements.
7. The capital costs involved (site, buildings, equipment, furniture, playing facilities) would be met in full out of public funds subject to an agreed local contribution. This local contribution would be a matter for negotiation in each individual case.
8. The current costs of running the school would be met by the Board of Management which would be funded directly and in full by the Department of Education. This Department favours an arrangement under which a budget would be agreed annually in advance with the Board of Management and within the limits of that budget the board would be free to decide how best to utilise the funds at its disposal. The board would be free, if it thought fit, to supplement its receipts by such local contributions as it might be possible for it to raise for general or specific purposes. The board's accounts would be subject to audit by the Comptroller and Auditor General in so far as expenditure of public funds was concerned.
October, 1970.
Department of Education.
I should like to ask the Minister some supplementary questions which I hope he will listen to carefully and reply to with his normal courtesy. Would he not agree that his Department produced a document in October, 1970, for knowledge of the contents of which we are indebted to the Irish Times? Would he not further agree that the document he issued on the 13th May, to which he referred, represents a total reversal of policy as against the original document and a sell-out of the principle of community schools and of the area of vocational teaching? Would the Minister not agree that the two documents are totally at odds with each other and represent a reversal of policy on community schools? What document did the Minister communicate to Dr. Buchanan, the Church of Ireland Archbishop of Dublin, and when did he communicate it to him?
In relation to the first supplementary I am amazed the Deputy should suggest that the second document issued was a reversal of policy in the first one, particularly when there is in fact very little difference between the document forming the original working paper and the final document. As Dr. Buchanan stated recently in the newspapers the document was sent to him a short time ago.
Which document?
The working document.
Which one?
The original one.
The document published in the Irish Times?
I will not comment on that, Deputy.
Would the Minister give the House an assurance that pending the completion of consultations between him and the various interested bodies he will suspend these disgracefully, unilateral, sectarian proposals and consider introducing into Dáil Éireann preferably, a new Education Act, which is very badly needed, instead of proceeding in a manner which can be rightly described by Christian minority interests as being contemptuous of their rights as well as being grossly contemptuous of the rights of parents, the rights of teachers and the rights of the religious teaching orders themselves in the consultations held prior to the publication of an agreed document? The Minister is being dishonest in suggesting that they are his proposals. They are the proposals unilaterally agreed between the Catholic Hierarchy spokesman and himself——
The Deputy is making a statement.
I am suggesting the Minister should answer the charges made.
I refute the imputations in the Deputy's question.
The Minister should answer the charges made.
I absolutely refute the imputations in the Deputy's speech.
Which is the Minister refuting?
Deputy Harte was not listening.
With respect to the statements made by him and published in the Irish Times in respect of Protestant attitudes to vocational schools, in the light of the statement by the Archbishop of Dublin and indeed Dr. Buchanan's speech to the vocational teachers in Bundoran some time ago, will the Minister accept his statement is incorrect and misleading? In fact, the Protestant Community value the vocational schools, have a high regard for them and use them but they merely request the same right as the Catholic community to have a choice between non-denominational vocational schools and denominational schools.
I stand over the statement I made which was reported in the Irish Times and in some of the other papers. I read the statement attributed to Dr. Buchanan——
Come, come.
What does the Minister mean by "attributed to"?
The Deputy knows what "attributed to" means.
The Minister has made a statement.
How does the Deputy know?
The newspaper has it.
It is attributed to him there.
The Minister must be allowed to answer the question in his fashion.
In his fashion?
They obviously do not want to listen. I read with interest the statement made by Dr. Buchanan and I have no doubt that he was referring to the legal position of vocational schools. I have to concern myself with the factual position where deputation after deputation on behalf of the Protestant community have on numerous occasions represented to me and to the officers of my Department that because the vast majority of teachers and pupils of vocational schools are Catholic they cannot regard these schools as nondenominational in character. This was the main argument that has been used and claims were made to me for special transport facilities for Protestant children to enable them to attend schools under Protestant management. I might mention that these deputations included members of the Bench of Bishops. I have discussed these matters with many deputations from the Protestant community and there is no question in my mind but that they are anxious to have schools based on their own faith.
Quite, just like Catholics.
I feel I should respect the wishes of the Protestant community. As I say, I read what Dr. Buchanan stated, and I have no doubt that the Protestant community and Dr. Buchanan have the greatest admiration for the vocational schools and some Protestant children do attend vocational schools but I am trying to point out that as far as I am concerned in relation to all the deputations I have met there is no doubt in my mind as to what the Protestant community want.
Their point of view is that they want a choice between nondenominational schools and Protestant schools just as Catholics are entitled to. The Minister is completely misrepresenting the position stated by Dr. Buchanan to the vocational teachers conference.
I am not misrepresenting the situation. There may be differences of opinion among the Protestant community as to what they would like but I wish to repeat, and this is something which we should not belabour, that from my meeting with Protestant deputations of various kinds I was under no illusion as to what they wanted. As I say, this Government have always been particularly concerned with giving fair treatment to all denominations and I felt that I interpreted their wishes correctly.
Would the Minister further agree——
I am calling Deputy Corish.
The Minister has said that these proposals will be discussed in the various areas affected. First of all, with whom is it intended to have these discussions and, secondly, will he say now how firm his proposals are in view of the fact that it is intended to have these discussions?
I would hope to have the discussions within the framework of the proposals I have made. The discussions will take place with the managerial interests, with the vocational interests, with representatives of the Bishop——
What bishop? Is there only one bishop?
And the public will also be welcome.
How will the public be represented?
Anyone who wishes to go will be welcome.
How firm are these proposals? Is the Minister open to conviction or is this just an attempt to sell his proposals?
Is Fianna Fáil committed to sectarianism?
I considered all aspects very carefully.
It is a sell out and we know it.
If the Deputy likes to think that he can do so. The situation is that discussions will take place.
It is fixed.
It is all fixed.
The authorities of the secondary schools will appoint four on the management board two of whom will be parents from the catchment area of the school. The vocational committee will appoint two members from the catchment area. I should like these also to be parents. In this way the community will be involved.
But not represented.
I am not laying down how the parents will be selected. That is something that can be considered.
In speaking of the reception of past deputations from the Church of Ireland community the Minister has grossly misrepresented the position of the community. The Church of Ireland Bishop of Dublin—I define my bishops, unlike the Minister—has himself said that the first communication he received in this was two or three weeks ago. Secondly, would the Minister not agree that there is a total difference between a school which may be de facto denominational because the majority are Catholics and a school de jure denominational in the light of the proposals?
Hear, hear.
The Minister would not dare to put this into a new piece of legislation.
I would hate to think I misrepresented anybody. I am simply giving the House what my very clear understanding was in relation to the discussions with the various groups and deputations from the Protestant community, some of whom were members of the Bench of Bishops. I made changes, as I said, in relation to special transport facilities for this very reason for the Protestant community. I made several changes in relation to certain schools to assist the Protestant community and I report that I have no doubt in my mind as to what their attitude was when they met me.
May I ask the Minister whether——
We cannot discuss this one question all evening.
There are a number of points still to come. Would the Minister say whether subsequent discussions with the leaders of the Protestant community concerned with education revealed the fact that he misunderstood their position, as I have been informed by them within the last 72 hours, and would he then consider proposals based on that misunderstanding?
I met them on many occasions. The Deputy has simply gone around and asked a few people what they thought. That is quite different from discussing all the various aspects of this whole question of education.
Question No. 48.
There are a number of other supplementary questions.
The Chair must point out that we are entering into a debate on this matter.
Not a debate. I have a series of questions. The areas in question are all Catholic areas and I want to know whether the Minister will accept that in nine out of 25 the proportion of Protestants is above the national average. The remaining are suburban where in two at least the Protestant proportion is above the national average. How then does he describe them as Catholic areas?
My information is that in the rural areas the number of Protestants attending these schools is very low, but I am not making a major point of this.
Will the Minister accept that the statement he made to the newspapers was incorrect and, far from being Catholic areas, nine out of 25 are above average from the point of view of Protestant population? In several cases the proportion is above the national average.
Did I say Catholic schools or Catholic areas?
May I ask the Minister if during the period in which he had extensive discussions with Cardinal Conway on the question of community schools he had any discussions with Dr. Buchanan, the Archbishop of Dublin, on the question of community schools?
Or with other Protestant representatives?
Did the Minister have discussions or did he not?
Does the Deputy want me to answer the question?
It is a simple question: Yes or no.
As I said, we were dealing with Catholic schools.
That is not correct.
It is correct, and it is possible that it was referred to at a discussion with the Protestant bishops, but it would not be discussed. I am not going to pretend it was discussed. It is possible it was referred to but I would not call it a discussion.
I am calling Question No. 48.
One final supplementary.
Question No. 48 has been ruled.
I want to ask the Minister will he agree——
The Chair is not allowing this supplementary. The Chair is ruling Question No. 48.
This is a very important matter and we are entitled to find out the Minister's thinking on this matter.
Question No. 48.
I give notice that I wish to raise the matter on the Adjournment.
