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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 8 Jun 1971

Vol. 254 No. 7

British & Irish Steam Packet Company Limited (Acquisition) (Amendment) Bill, 1970: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The Government, in March, 1965, purchased from Coast Lines Limited that company's wholly-owned subsidiary, the British & Irish Steam Packet Company Limited. The purchase price of £3,600,000 was based on valuation of the assets without any allowance for goodwill. The assets included three passenger/cargo/cattle vessels, six cargo/cattle vessels, properties at Dublin, Cork, Drogheda and Dundalk and liquid reserves amounting to £720,000. It was a condition of the purchase that the B & I should enter into an agreement appointing Coast Lines their agents in Britain for a period of 20 years at an agreed commission. The Government also had to give Coast Lines a written undertaking that the B & I would operate their business on strictly commercial lines as a self-supporting commercial entity without special measures which would place the B & I in an advantageous position as compared with Coast Lines.

When moving the Second Stage of the British & Irish Steam Packet Company Limited (Acquisition) Bill, 1965, my predecessor outlined the reasons why the Government had acquired the B & I. These were, mainly, to ensure effective Irish participation in the cross-Channel trade which was so important both from the point of view of tourism and our foreign trade. The B & I profits were diminishing rapidly and it was essential to acquire the company to ensure the continuation of their services as well as to ensure that in the rapidly changing situation in the cross-Channel services the national interest would receive proper consideration. He pointed out that the shipping trade was then facing a period of rapid evolutionary change which posed great difficulties for shipping lines operating conventional services.

The 1965 Bill provided for the operation of the company on a strictly commercial basis. There was no provision for Government assistance nor any provision for increasing the capital of the company. It was hoped that necessary new investment to meet the technological changes in the industry could be financed from loan capital which would be serviced from profits.

Following their appointment, the new board of the B & I decided, after full investigation, that the existing management structure in the B & I, which was geared to the overall management structure of Coast Lines, was not suitable to operation of the company as an independent Irish entity. The board recruited new management personnel with knowledge and experience in the marketing and financial fields and introduced a new management structure based in Dublin and including a modern sales and marketing organisation.

In order to compete effectively with the new passenger/car ferry services between Ireland and Britain introduced by their competitors and to stimulate the demand for this type of transport which is particularly significant for the promotion and expansion of tourism, the B & I decided to replace their three conventional passenger/cargo/livestock vessels with car ferries. Two of these vessels have been brought into operation on the Dublin-Liverpool route and one on the Cork-Swansea route. The acquisition of these car ferries and the provision of the necessary terminals at Dublin, Cork, Liverpool and Swansea involved the company in capital investment and commitments of over £9 million. This sum was raised almost entirely by borrowing and the servicing of this borrowing has constituted a very heavy financial burden.

These services however, have been operated on a profitable basis and the record shows their spectacular success. In 1966, 378,000 passengers were carried by the company. The serious out-break of foot-and-mouth disease in Britain in 1967 contributed to a reduction in this figure to 306,000 in that year. In 1968, when the first car-ferry was introduced, the number of passengers carried increased to 360,000. This figure improved further to 480,000 in 1969 and 547,000 in 1970. The number of cars carried in 1968 was 43,000 rising to 78,000 in 1969 and 82,000 in 1970. Although they only commenced car-ferry operations in 1968 the company now control 37½ per cent of this market. I should add, perhaps, that these up-to-date vessels enabled the B & I to pioneer the roll-on/roll-off type of freight facility in this country. Now they are the only Irish operator of this type of service which is increasing in popularity. In 1968 they carried 5,157 wheeled-transport units, increasing to 14,300 units and 24,120 units in 1969 and 1970 respectively. These figures represent an estimated 30,000 tons, 90,000 tons and 140,000 tons of freight in each of the three years 1968, 1969 and 1970 respectively.

In earlier years livestock traffic had been one of the main and most profitable activities of the B & I. Over recent years, however, this position has altered substantially. British Rail decided in 1968 to concentrate their declining stock of cattle wagons at Holyhead and were no longer able to guarantee an adequate supply of rail wagons at Birkenhead. This, and the preference of shippers for onward transport by rail in Britain, resulted in a fall-off in the numbers of cattle shipped by the B & I. Where, in 1966, the company had carried 176,000 head of cattle to Birkenhead, in 1969 they carried only 49,000 and none at all in 1970. In the years 1968 and 1969 they lost £376,000 on this traffic. A further factor was the announcement by the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board, which controls Birkenhead, that livestock facilities at that port would be closed down if the port were not guaranteed an annual throughput of 200,000 head of cattle and an annual income of £103,000.

The likelihood that Birkenhead would no longer be available for Irish cattle obliged the B & I Company and British Rail to re-examine their entire position, vis-à-vis the livestock services. There was a serious danger that the B & I would be forced out of this trade entirely, leaving British Rail with a virtual monopoly of a sector of shipping of vital national interest. After prolonged negotiation between the B & I and British Rail, agreement was reached last year on a proposal, which had the approval of the livestock trade, to operate joint livestock services through a consortium. The agreement provided that the two companies would provide ships to a common pool and for the operation of regular scheduled services to Holyhead, for cattle requiring onward transport by rail, and to Heysham, for cattle destined for onward transport by road. The consortium is under the control of a management board, consisting of representatives of the two shipping companies and of the livestock trade. The new management board will determine rates and negotiate on any proposed increases with the Irish Livestock Exporters' and Traders' Association. Any such increases will be related strictly to new factors, such as increasing costs, and machinery will be established to relate rates to actual costs of operation.

This agreement secures considerable benefits for shippers as well as for the B & I. For shippers, regular scheduled services are guaranteed for an initial period of five years with the possibility of extension for a further five-year period. Shippers are also assured of reasonable stability in freight rates. Furthermore, for the first time, they have secured a voice in the cattle shipment business through their representatives on the management board. For the B & I, the agreement means elimination of their losses on livestock carryings and a continuing guarantee of participation in the cattle trade. The agreement also recognised that the future of Birkenhead as an entry port for Irish cattle was in doubt. This development was a cause, and not a result, of the inter-company agreement.

The livestock trade recently made representations to me and to the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries about the desirability of ensuring that Birkenhead should remain open to receive Irish cattle. I arranged for officers of both Departments to discuss the matter with the trade whose views I conveyed to the consortium. It must, however, be kept in mind that the question of the future of the livestock facilities at Birkenhead is one solely for the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board. What is essential, in the interests of the trade, is that there should be a guarantee of regular service between this country and Britain.

The most difficult problem, financially and otherwise, which faced the company following the take-over was the declining profitability of their conventional cargo services and it was found essential to convert to containers and unit loads as rapidly as possible. By early 1969 all the company's cargo was being carried in specialised unit load ships. B & I are now market leaders in this field and account for 35 per cent of total freight movements in the cross-Channel trade. To achieve the full economic benefits of containerisation, however, required the construction of automated terminals and the provision of cellular container vessels designed for automated handling of containers in conjunction with the terminals. Because of the high level of dock labour which had been employed in the loading and unloading of the conventional vessels, the change-over to container vessels and the progressive approach to complete automation of loading and discharge involved heavy redundancy.

The B & I have long recognised the need to deal with this problem and, in July, 1967, with British Rail and Bristol Seaway Ltd., initiated a survey of operations at the Dublin cross-Channel terminal with a view to formulating a charter for cross-Channel dock workers. This survey culminated in the Murphy Report of May, 1968. However, even before this important report was made, the three companies had introduced an interim scheme of redundancy compensation payments, jointly operated and financed by themselves.

Following completion of the survey, negotiations on the recommendations contained in the Murphy Report commenced, under the auspices of the Department of Labour, between the companies and the trade unions concerned. Arising from those negotiations, the first stage of implementation of the Murphy recommendations on redundancy was the introduction, in January, 1969, of the voluntary options scheme. This replaced the interim scheme which had operated since 1967. Basically, both schemes provided for payment of a lump sum to a docker on his retirement, together with a weekly pension in the case of those dockers with the necessary qualifying years of service. Depending on age and service, dockers can now qualify for lump sum payments up to a maximum of £1,500 and for pensions up to a maximum of £7 per week; 223 dockers who opted for retirement have benefited from the schemes to date. This has resulted in a reduction in the number of dockers on the register from 446 in September, 1967, to the present day level of 223. Negotiations with the unions are continuing on the full implementation of the Murphy Report proposals and it is hoped that agreement will be reached in the near future. This will involve the B & I Company in further heavy redundancy payments to their dockers.

The company's full freight plan was estimated to cost £9 million and it had been hoped to find the necessary finance mainly by commercial borrowing and partly from internal resources including the disposal of redundant assets. The company were also exploring, in the context of their freight plan, the possibility of reaching an understanding with British Rail, their principal competitor, on the rational long-term development of cargo services between Ireland and Britain which would exclude unnecessary duplication and, by being open to all container operators at standard rates, would avoid the dangers of monopoly.

The company's development and the implementation of their plans have thus made excellent physical progress, but financial problems have arisen. Apart from the heavy losses sustained in livestock carryings, the company were involved in very heavy losses due to strikes at Liverpool in three successive years and to the outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease in 1967-68. These, together with the maintenance strike in 1969 and the British dock strike in 1970, involved the company in losses estimated at nearly £700,000. The disposal of their older vessels, particularly the passenger/cargo/cattle vessels, yielded nearly £1 million less than the figure at which they had been taken over. This was due to premature obsolesence of their passenger/cargo/ cattle vessels because of the rapid development of specialised cargo, ferry and container vessels and also because newly adopted international fire safety regulations require costly modifications in their vessels which reduced their attractiveness to potential purchasers overseas.

By the end of 1969 the B & I found themselves at a crucial stage of their development. Apart from the financial difficulties caused by unforeseen losses and the heavy drain on liquidity imposed by the servicing of substantial loan capital, the company found that British Rail had also committed themselves to a major programme of containerisation with new cellular container ships and automated terminals on the same lines as their own freight plan. It was known that, in order to secure the volume of traffic necessary for economic operation of their new ships and terminals, British Rail aimed at securing a substantial increase in their share of the market. The developing situation threatened to bring about a freight war in the cross-Channel trade which would wipe out small independent operators and involve the two major companies in over-investment and heavy losses which would eventually fall on the taxpayer.

The B & I reported this situation to me at the beginning of 1970. They pointed out that in the absence of some agreement with British Rail they would have to face a period of very substantial losses until the growth in traffic would permit both companies to secure adequate traffic for economic operation. The B & I were also concerned that in a situation of unrestricted and uneconomic competition they should be supported by CIE who had developed container operations of their own on the Irish Sea in association with one of the other British nationalised transport companies. CIE operated containers only and not ships and with their British partner aimed to ship containers through the cheapest services available. In this very complex and rapidly changing situation I decided to engage specialised consultants to examine and clarify the issues arising. I invited McKinsey & Co., Inc., to undertake this task because of their special knowledge and experience in this field. They had already carried out major studies for British Rail on which, inter alia, were based British Rail freight plans for the Irish Sea. They were engaged in similar studies for the European Railways consortium.

British Rail were kind enough to agree that McKinseys could use the same consultancy team that worked for them and could also use the data already supplied by British Rail. As I announced at the time, the study aimed in the first instance at analysing operational methods, routes and scales of service and identifying and contrasting possible alternative policies for the Irish State-owned operators. In the light of this part of the study, adoption and implementation of definitive commercial policies would be considered. I made it clear that any measures recommended would have to be in accord with overall Government policy in relation to cross-Channel shipping which aims at ensuring efficient services at competitive rates for shippers, maintaining an equitable level of Irish participation in the trade, encouraging participation by private operators and excluding restrictive practices which are contrary to the public interest.

In their first report to me McKinsey & Co. found that both the B & I and British Rail had each separately planned the most economic services for their own routes but that the total market for some years to come was not large enough for both the B & I and British Rail to obtain the traffic levels on which their plans were based. There would thus be considerable over-capacity throughout the early 1970s. Two separate Dublin terminals and too much ship capacity were being provided. British Rail were preparing to improve their market share by cutting rates which could mainly be at the expense of the B & I and B & I would have to match these rates to stay in business. Both companies would lose money which would ultimately have to be met by the taxpayers in Britain and Ireland. McKinseys estimated that if the shipping operations of both companies were rationalised on lines recommended by them the two companies would be able to reduce their total shipping costs by over 12 per cent and achieve higher load factors. On the basis of the information available at the time of their report McKinseys estimated that there would also be a saving from operating to a joint terminal on a one-berth system at Dublin. However, escalating costs have in the meantime eliminated any prospect of such saving; as separate berth operation is now cheaper, the companies intend to proceed on that basis but to set up a joint terminal operating company to control and manage the two berths as a unit.

At my request, McKinsey & Co. communicated their report to British Rail also. At subsequent meetings between British Rail and the B & I, agreement in principle on rationalisation of shipping operations was reached, and settlement of the various operational and financial details leading to formal agreement is proceeding. This will lead to substantial savings in both operational costs and capital costs in the purchase of equipment and ships as far as the two companies are concerned. These agreements should not only protect the companies against losses caused by the operation of excess capacity but ensure the provision of adequate services at the lowest real cost with consequent benefit to both exporters and importers. On the other hand, the agreements do not constitute any kind of monopoly and will not provide unfair competition for independent operators of economic services on other routes.

McKinsey & Co., subsequently reported to me on the steps which might be taken towards the integration of the marketing operations of B & I and CIE. They envisaged the possible hiving-off of marketing by both concerns to a separate jointly managed undertaking which should enter into a partnership with a similarly representative British nationalised undertaking with safeguards against monopoly operation. These recommendations have been under examination by the B & I and CIE in consultation with the different British nationalised undertakings which would be concerned.

Because of the distribution of functions among the British nationalised transport bodies concerned and their commercial relations with B & I and CIE respectively, the proposal to establish a joint CIE/B & I marketing organisation was not found to be practicable and its adoption could threaten the proposed agreement between B & I and British Rail for rationalisation of ships and terminals and resurrect the threat of a rate war. B & I and CIE have now agreed, however, on marketing policies which will safeguard the efficient and economic operation of ships and terminals and provide for standard rates of charge for all users, public and private sector alike. These objectives provide for separation of the operation of ships and terminals from the marketing and through-forwarding of containers. B & I (Freightway) will operate as a separate marketing and through-forwarding operator on both sides of the Irish sea. CIE will continue in partnership with the companies of the National Freight Corporation in Britain as a second marketing and through-forwarding organisation using the ships and terminals of British Rail and B & I or other nationalised shipping companies as appropriate. The ships will be open to other through-forwarding operators and marketers of containers at the same standard rates. This arrangement, which is expected to be acceptable to the British partners, will ensure the most economic utilisation of the heavy investment in ships and terminals by British Rail and B & I while avoiding monopoly and keeping rates at the lowest economic levels. The proposed agreements and arrangements I have outlined should ensure the provision of satisfactory services at low cost for years to come while safeguarding the heavy public investment in the B & I.

I took advantage of the availability of McKinseys to ask them to examine and report also on the financial structure and capital requirements of the B & I. They reported to me that the company are in need of extra capital; that too high a proportion of their existing capital is in the form of loans, the servicing of which causes an undue burden and that additional equity capital to meet the company's immediate financial needs should be provided by the State. McKinseys consider that if this capital were made available and provided rationalisation was agreed with British Rail and was speedily implemented, the company would be in a more favourable position to operate successfully on a commercial and competitive basis. They assessed the need for new equity capital at £3 million. This would be required principally to meet the B & I share of the cost of the new container terminal at Dublin, the cost of containers and other equipment and the buying out of the Coast Lines agreement. McKinseys confirmed the B & I viewpoint that the existing agency agreement with Coast Lines is now an anomaly. The agency concept had become outmoded because of the company's vigorous marketing by their own personnel in Britain of a door-to-door service and because of the change-over from conventional vessels to car ferries and unit-load ships.

The B & I in co-operation with the Holland/America Line inaugurated a twice-weekly container service at the end of April, 1971 linking the ports of Cork and Dublin with Rotterdam and Le Havre. This co-operation between the two companies offers a comprehensive door-to-door container service to and from the mainland of Europe. The service should prove a valuable asset to this country's continental trade especially now that we may be on the threshold of entry to EEC.

While this Bill provides for the contribution of up to £3 million by the Minister for Finance for shares in the B & I it is not contemplated that this new investment should be made all at once. In present financial circumstances, it is not foreseen that more than a part of the equity required can be made available in the coming financial year. The B & I may, therefore, have to increase their borrowing for the time being and for this reason the Bill also provides that the Minister for Finance should be authorised to guarantee borrowings by the company. I should emphasise that the company have received no subsidies and no subsidy is provided for in the present Bill.

Since 1965 the whole structure of the company has been transformed. The company now provide a fully integrated shipping and marketing service. Their passenger services have been remodelled by the introduction of three modern car-ferries signifying the company's new role in passenger transport and their full commitment to the development of tourism. These vessels also enable the company to cater for the growing roll-on/roll-off freight traffic. From the carriage of conventional loose-stow freight in obsolete vessels, the B & I have developed to the position of offering through their marketing organisation a door-to-door unit-load service using cellular ships, automated terminals and freightliner trains. Through their agency agreements with foreign container operators they can offer service not alone to Britain and the Continent but to North America and Australia.

Mass-movement sea operations, coupled with an efficient inland network have produced improved services and operational economies for the company, the benefits of which continue to be passed on to shippers.

It may be said that these achievements during the company's early development stage have not so far provided commercial profits. However, the company's investments have now begun to pay off; the company made a profit in 1970. It must also be realised in retrospect that the company were faced with an impossible task when they attempted to undertake so vast a programme of capital investment on borrowing alone in the face of rising costs, rapid changes in the commercial environment and a number of unforeseen difficulties which involved them in heavy losses. I think it is enough to point out that when the company commenced operations in 1965 their fixed assets were valued at £1.2 million. At the end of 1970 they were valued at £8 million. Moreover, as I have explained, these changes brought about great benefit to the community and to shippers. Whereas the average sea freight realisation per ton of cargo through the port of Dublin to the B & I in 1966 amounted to 102s 7d in 1970 it amounted to 85s despite the inflationary increase in cost since then.

I confidently recommend the Bill to the House and I hope Dáil Éireann will join with me in congratulating the board, management and staff of the B & I on the progress they have made since the newly-purchased company was entrusted to their care by the Oireachtas in 1965.

Mr. O'Donnell

Before I deal with the Bill there are a few general observations very relevant to the Bill which I should like to make. First, this Bill which asks Dáil Éireann to make certain financial provision for one of our State bodies, focuses attention once again on something to which I have referred on every occasion in the past year or two when State-sponsored bodies were discussed. I refer to the present totally unsatisfactory situation which exists in regard to the public and Parliamentary accountability of State-sponsored bodies. This Bill, like many others introduced here making financial provision for State-sponsored companies, involves the taxpayers in fairly heavy financial commitments. The Members of this House are asked to exercise judgment on and particularly the spokesmen for the different parties are expected to assess the performance of these companies and judge their worthiness or otherwise of additional State finances.

On the last occasion—I think it was December—when the Minister introduced a somewhat similar Bill seeking £3 million for CIE, I made a point which is very relevant at present, that it is not good enough for the Minister or any other Minister concerned with State-sponsored bodies to come here and expect Members to assess the performance of these companies on the outline information in the Minister's brief and decide whether we should support additional financing for them. I have referred on many occasions, and I make no apology for doing so again, to the growing public dissatisfaction with the failure of the Government to implement some form of acceptable public accountability in regard to these State-sponsored bodies. I and my Party believe that the establishment of Parliamentary committees, as has been done in Britain, is the only logical way of ensuring a satisfactory relationship between Parliament and the State bodies.

However, in the absence of these committees I feel the Minister for Transport and Power could be a good deal more helpful in present circumstances particularly in relation to a Bill of this nature which has highly technical implications. It deals with a very complex, highly sophisticated organisation which demands expertise and knowledge well beyond the experience of most Members of Dáil Éireann. The Minister could be more helpful in supplying some advance notes. I want to say that when I did approach the Minister through his private secretary last Thursday when I realised this Bill was coming, he very kindly provided me with certain outline information for which I am very grateful. I also want to acknowledge the fact that when I approached the B & I Company on Thursday the doors were opened to me, the general manager in particular placed himself entirely at my disposal and they were prepared to facilitate me in every way. The co-operation I have received from the B & I Company in this respect is an entirely new experience as far as I am concerned in the case of State-sponsored bodies because many of them, in my experience, if they do not hold elected members of the Dáil in contempt, at least they resent any interference by them. I believe that we have a duty to the people who sent us here and to the taxpayers to see to it as far as we can that the money voted by the Oireachtas for State-sponsored bodies is spent in the best possible way.

Having said that, the second point I want to make is this: I believe this Bill is another instalment of the patch-work unco-ordinated transport legislation that we have been getting here over the past year or two. We have had Transport Bills of various kinds, the most recent of which liberalised road haulage; we have had Bills for CIE and Bills for air companies, but we have not got any indication from the Government of their intention to implement a national transport policy which many people have advocated strongly during the last 12 months.

The need for an overall national transport plan is now a matter of urgency particularly in view of our present negotiations for membership of the EEC and the likelihood of our becoming members in the foreseeable future. It is vitally important that the Government lose no time in producing a blueprint which would integrate and co-ordinate the various internal and external transport systems which operate in both the private and public sector. In view of our total dependence on external trade we need a coherent pattern of transport development where order will prevail and stability can be achieved.

The Government have failed to implement a plan which would ensure that all our transport resources are utilised in an optimum fashion. The Minister admitted today that there has been unco-ordinated and overlapping development. The classical example is the case of the B & I and CIE. The Minister has had to call in McKinsey & Co., in an endeavour to rationalise the situation which has developed between these two State bodies where the B & I and CIE are in competition with one another. If there had been some concept of national planning in relation to transport the present situation, which the consultants have been called in to unravel, need never have arisen.

When I spoke on the EEC debate last summer I dealt with the Common Market transport policy and its implications for this country and I said it was essential for the Government to formulate a national transport plan as a matter of urgency but the Minister apparently has not done anything about it. Under the Common Market transport policy we will be compelled to formulate such a plan. I do not know why this type of haphazard development has been allowed to take place particularly in the case of the B & I and CIE. Three cases where the Minister has had to call in McKinsey & Co., have been mentioned today. They were brought in to rationalise the transportation of livestock in order to prevent a price war between the B & I and British Rail.

People involved in the transport industry have been calling for a national plan in recent months. I have in front of me the statements made by the chairman of the B & I and by Dr. Noel Whelan of CIE who both advocate the formulation of a national transport policy. The Minister did not refer to it in his opening remarks but he should give us some indication of what Government thinking is in relation to the future development of our internal and external transport systems, particularly the steps which might be taken to ensure that there will be co-ordinated development of all our transport systems.

This Bill is designed to correct the present imbalance between the equity and loan capital within the B & I. A rather unusual and, for the company, difficult situation has arisen in that loans now represent about two-thirds of the capital employed in the B & I. This is a peculiar situation which has caused concern to the B & I and has been referred to by the chairman of the B & I in several annual reports. This Bill authorises the Minister to purchase an additional three million ordinary shares of the company of £1 each. It empowers the Minister for Finance, after consultation with the Minister for Transport and Power, to guarantee borrowings by the company.

This particular arrangement is a logical one and I see no objection to it, but I must refer to the fact that certain organisations and certain people have alleged that the financial arrangements envisaged in this Bill constitute a subsidy to the B & I. Representations were made to the Minister on this matter by some of the smaller operators, I am sure other Deputies received representations and memoranda in relation to this, but from the information I could gather I am satisfied that this particular provision is not in fact a subsidy. The chairman of the B & I, at paragraph 19 of his address to the annual general meeting on 15th April, 1971, said:

This enabling Bill has been misrepresented as a subsidy of £3,000,000 to the company to off-set operating losses. The audited account refutes the basis for this allegation. We have never sought or received grants which were not in the normal course available to the private sector, nor have we applied for any form of subsidy. There is not, in any event, any legislation which permits the payment of a subsidy to the company.

In fairness to the B & I the purpose for which this Bill is designed could not be taken as constituting a subsidy to the company. I understand McKinsey & Co., have been called in again by the Minister to examine the financial structure of the B & I. They have recommended additional equity capital, which they assess at £3 million. I understand the new capital is required to meet the cost of the company's new container terminal at Dublin, the cost of containers and the cost of buying out the agency agreement between the company and Coast Lines Limited.

In his speech—may I say his introductory speech was much more detailed and informative than usual?— the Minister dealt in detail with this question and referred to the McKinsey Report. I am personally satisfied that this effort to restore a better balance in the finances of B & I is necessary at this stage. I do not think the company could carry on with projected capital development if they were entirely dependent on loan capital.

The Minister outlined the many developments that have taken place since the company was acquired by the State. There is no doubt at all, studying the annual reports of the company and looking at the whole picture in the last five or six years, that the performance of the B & I Board has been a pretty impressive one. In taking over this company, the new board took over what was a relatively antiquated shipping company with obsolete equipment and so forth. They were confronted with the gigantic task of streamlining and modernising the company to bring it into line with developments by competitors and by shipping lines in other parts of the world.

The capital employed has risen from £2¼ million in 1966 to £8¾ million in 1970. The turnover has almost doubled—from £4,328,066 to £7,900,000 in 1970. The company took over a shipping organisation which, as I have said, were tied or shackled to traditional handling methods and obsolete practices. In the last five or six years a virtual transformation has taken place. There has been a drastic reorganisation and strengthening of the management structure. The company have introduced car ferry services; they have phased out conventional continer services and have stabilised employment. They have developed new terminals and have taken some steps towards rationalisation of their livestock services to meet requirements.

When taken over by the State the company received a mandate from the Minister to operate as a fully commercial concern. I think a perusal of the annual reports of the company during the past five or six years must convince anybody that the B & I board have fulfilled this mandate with reasonable satisfaction. Perhaps the most important development yet by B & I has been the introduction of the car ferry service. This development has been a colossal contribution to the development and growth of tourism in this country in recent years. The growth rate from the introduction of the car ferry traffic in the first two or three years was dramatic.

Unfortunately, there was a falling off in 1970 and there are indications that there will be a falling off again in the current year. Car ferries are very much tied up with the growth and development of the Irish tourist industry and therefore any falling off in this traffic must be viewed with alarm and every effort must be made to ascertain the causes for the decline. No time should be lost in trying to introduce the necessary corrective measures.

In 1968 the car ferry traffic showed a growth of 40 per cent, in 1969 there was a further growth of 24.4 per cent but in 1970 this had dropped to a growth of 3.2 per cent. The prospects for 1970 have been subject to a good deal of controversy but there are indications that the drop will be to the tune of 15 per cent. The Minister shakes his head. Perhaps this is not the picture now. I do not know but, rather than quibble about figures, I will say that there has been since 1969 a dramatic reduction of car ferry traffic to this country. It is important not merely for the B & I company but for everybody concerned with Irish tourism that an attempt should be made to analyse the factors that have contributed to this decline. The usual reasons for the decline in tourism, particularly from Britain, will be trotted out to explain the falling off. The position in Northern Ireland——

The Deputy will appreciate that the Bill does not open up a debate on tourism per se.

Mr. O'Donnell

The Minister referred to the car ferry service.

The figures are up. The figures mentioned in my introductory speech show a rise. If the Deputy goes back to page 3 of my introductory speech——

Mr. O'Donnell

Surely the car ferry service is an integral and important part of the B & I operations and surely I am allowed to make some observations as to the reasons why there appears to be a falling off?

There is not a falling off. Let us not get off the rails. There is a rise, as I stated in page 3 of my speech. The Deputy may be confused. There has been a rise in the numbers of both cars and passengers.

Mr. O'Donnell

I should prefer if the Minister allowed me to make my speech in my own way. He will have an opportunity of replying afterwards.

Mr. O'Donnell

The Minister seems to have misunderstood me. Perhaps I did not make myself clear. I stated quite clearly that I was referring to the growth in the car ferry service, that in 1968 it showed an increase of 40 per cent, in 1969 an increase of 24.4 per cent over 1968 and that in 1970 the growth rate had dropped to 3.2 per cent over the 1969 figure. I have got these figures.

That is from a zero start.

Mr. O'Donnell

I have the information here. I am talking about the increase in the volume each year and it may surprise the Minister to know that the B & I company are very concerned about this.

There is a further projected rise for this year.

Mr. O'Donnell

Is it not a fact that the B & I Company, together with other carriers, have made certain submissions to the Minister on this matter? It is not? If that is the case, then the B & I Company are telling me lies.

We did that in order to be helpful to the Deputy.

Mr. O'Donnell

I have here an article from the Sunday Press of November, 1970, which refers to the car ferry service and in which it is said that the carriers across the Irish Sea are now more than ever aware of the disadvantages that they suffer in comparison with the British-Continental service particularly with regard to the provision of duty-free facilities, et cetera, and that the carriers are at present formulating a case for presentation to the Minister.

Would the Deputy give the date?

Mr. O'Donnell

It is the Sunday Press of November, 1970. Unfortunately, I have not got the day. The article was written by the general manager of the B & I Company. If I may be permitted to speak further about this matter, I would point out that in that article the following observations are made:

The growth of 40 per cent in 1968 and 24.4 per cent in 1969 augured well for the ferry operators, especially the B & I Line who had just completed its £10 million capital investment programme.

The sudden levelling off of this growth rate to a mere 3.2 per cent in 1970 is one of the major factors for the drop in tourism earnings. While the B & I can take some pleasure from the fact that they captured more than three-quarters of this 3.2 per cent growth, the generally depressed state of the market creates problems for all concerned.

How can the Minister say that the situation is not serious or does not merit special attention? Various factors have been responsible for this levelling-off in the rate of growth of car ferry traffic. I was going on to say, before the Minister interrupted me, that the usual obvious reasons have been trotted out, such as the troubles in the North of Ireland and so forth, but there is one very significant factor which, in my opinion, will be detrimental to the growth of car ferry traffic from Britain to this country and that is the difference in fares on the Irish Sea routes compared with the fares on the British-Continental routes. The Minister is aware of this difference. The cost to the British holiday-maker taking his car and his family on the ferry from Dover to Calais is much less than from Liverpool to Dublin.

One of the factors enabling Continental car ferry operators to keep fares stabilised is the duty-free concessions on these trips. Cross-Channel carriers are very conscious of this factor and representations have been or are being made to the Minister or, probably, to the Minister for Finance, in regard to the introduction of duty-free facilities on these routes. Another factor that has affected the development of car ferry traffic from Britain has been the increase in the overseas spending allowance from £50 to £150 which means that the British holiday-maker has now a wide choice of Continental resorts. Whereas the spending allowance of £50 enabled him to have a holiday in Ireland, it would not take him very far on the Continent.

I should like the Minister when he is replying to the debate to give some indication of his views as to the reason for the colossal difference in the fares structure of the Irish car ferries operating on the Irish Sea as compared with those services operating between Britain and the Continent. I should like him also to indicate his intention in relation to the introduction of duty-free facilities for those operating across the Irish Sea.

Despite the setbacks that have been encountered by the B & I Company in car ferry operations, the overall picture has been highly satisfactory. If the Minister had not anticipated what I was going to say, I would have referred earlier to the graphs which show an increase in the total number of passengers carried and the total number of cars. However, whereas between 1967 and 1970 there was a dramatic increase, the indications for 1971 are that there is a definite levelling-off. I believe there is tremendous scope for generating substantially greater car ferry traffic between Britain and this country. It is noteworthy that, whereas the troubles in the North of Ireland have had an adverse effect on the Cork-Swansea route, they do not appear, from surveys that have been carried out, to have had the same effect on the Dublin-Liverpool and Holyhead-Dún Laoghaire routes operated by British Rail. There appears to be a good explanation for this. On analysis of the situation one finds that Liverpool and Holyhead have been serving the industrial midlands of Britain which have a high ethnic market, a high concentration of Irish people, and the greater part of this traffic is probably represented by Irish people returning home on holidays. Despite the apparent levelling-off in the growth rate of car ferry traffic and despite the difficulties that have been encounered, I believe there is tremendous hope of developing car ferry traffic.

I want to make brief reference to a matter that I have been strongly advocating for a good while and about which I have castigated the shipping companies as well as the air companies. I refer to the failure of the shipping companies and the air companies, even Bord Fáilte and the Government, to introduce an attractive family package holiday for the vast Irish population in Great Britain. I have been advocating this publicly for a long time both here and in Britain and I am pleased to acknowledge the fact that the B & I company some months ago in the off season introduced a very attractive concession to Irish people to encourage them to travel home at weekends. The fare was rockbottom, the larger the group travelling the greater the concession. This type of business should be encouraged. As I have often pointed out, only 30 per cent of Irish born people in Great Britain come home once a year, many come home once every two years and a large number can only come home once every three or four years. Therefore, there is scope here for the development of the car ferry traffic. I hope the Minister will look into the question of the provision of duty-free facilities on the car ferries similar to those available on the Continental and British car ferries.

One of the most dramatic developments in cross-Channel shipping has been the growth of the roll-on/roll-off traffic. There has been a colossal growth in this particular type of traffic where trucks are driven on and deliveries effected at the other side. This type of traffic will continue to grow. More and more exporters are engaging in this particular type of traffic now, utilising the car ferries, and this makes the car ferry operation much more economic. I do not think the Minister gave any figures for this type of traffic. Perhaps he might give figures for this in his reply.

I will give them in the reply.

Mr. O'Donnell

I should like to refer to the recent link up between the B & I and the Holland-America Line which opens up an entirely new service into the Continent of Europe. This service has not been very long in operation but I understand the indications are that progress has been good and that there is considerable scope for developing it. I think the service is called Iropa. As far as I know it is confined to certain countries; it is limited to five or six continental countries, Holland, Belgium, Germany, France and Luxembourg or anywhere else by arrangement.

The B & I line have made good progress on the car ferry development, the roll-on/roll-off service, containerisation and so forth but one thing has remained rather unsatisfactory, that is, the question of livestock transport. This has been a source of considerable worry to the people in the livestock trade, to farmers' organisations, to cattle exporters. I am glad to note the recent establishment of a consortium and the efforts which have been made to provide a proper service on a long-term basis. I understand difficulties are still being encountered and I sincerely hope that every effort will be made by the Minister to ensure that the farmers and the livestock exporters will have adequate shipping services to Britain. I understand the big problem is that livestock export is a one-way traffic and this does not provide very great incentives for the provision of special ships to carry livestock because the ships return empty. I do not know if the envisaged service will be adequate to cope with the growing needs of Irish cattle exporters but from what I have read and from what I can see I believe the provision of adequate shipping facilities for livestock is very important. It is probably the most difficult task the Minister has to contend with at the present time.

I was impressed by the performance of the B & I company. A tribute should be paid to the board, to the management and to the staff of the company for the dramatic breakthrough they have made and particularly for the manner in which an old company with obsolete, outdated vessels and equipment has been transformed into a modern, forward-looking, well-equipped company. I was greatly impressed by the way the company were prepared to facilitate a member of the Dáil and the fact that they were prepared to place all their cards on the table and to answer any question which was asked. I wish the company well in the future.

I should like to say at the outset that there are two points which I think are a matter of pleasure and approval for everybody regardless of party. The first is the fact that since the legislation of 1965 a publicly-owned company has now turned into a company in which the Irish people are participants in an ownership sense in the cross-Channel trade with Britain. The second thing which I think deserves to be said—it was said by the Minister and the Fine Gael speaker and I want to add my voice—is that the amount of organisational effort, initiative and great vigour which has been brought to the management of the B & I is a source of pleasure to us all. It augurs well for the future and for the executive talent which exists in Ireland and is growing in quantity.

Our party are particularly interested in the area of overlap between what was previously done by private enterprise—although it was not wholly private, nor at all enterprising—prior to the takeover and the position now. We are particularly interested in that area when something which was a matter of private profit giving a bad service is turned over to the public through the State. The State must see that a proper service is provided for everybody. There was a great shadow across our shipping arrangements with the UK. A similar shadow lay across much of our relations with the UK. Until recent times the UK were the great maritime power of the world. It was understandable that our cross-Channel services should have remained almost completely under the control of the UK. They were significantly dominated by the UK. The move to public Irish ownership was a very welcome one.

Some facts revealed by the Minister are worrying. For example, the coal industry in some countries has declined and is no longer profit-bearing for the owners. The industry has become obsolete and unable to re-equip itself. In such circumstances the State is persuaded to buy out the owners for a generous sum. It sometimes happens that the assets do not prove to be as valuable as expected. This situation has occurred in the coal industry in many countries. A similar situation occurred in the transport industry in many countries. Perhaps the Minister will tell us whether this was another example of where the public had to bale out inefficient, incompetent private ownership and where through the money given and the nature of the service agreement with the Coast Lines Company we were more generous than we needed to be.

The crisis in the shipping industry could have been forecast. The growing difficulties of the companies which were unable to re-equip and modernise were quite obvious. It is arguable, if the Irish people had not stepped in through the 1965 legislation, whether the Coast Lines would now possess anything whatever of the £3 million plus the service agreement which they got from the Irish people. Perhaps I am being a little sharp about this matter. It is depressing that when we knew six years ago what the position was that a service agreement was given which has now to be bought out. Perhaps the Minister will tell us what extra money is needed for this purpose.

The valuation of the ships is another point of great interest. The Minister told us they were worth £1 million less. The Minister commented on this point in his brief. He said:

The disposal of their older vessels, particularly the passenger/cargo/ cattle vessels, yielded nearly £1 million less than the figure at which they had been taken over.

Two reasons are given for this. The first reason was the rapid swing to containerisation, a mode of shipping which has been rapidly established by the B & I. This move could have been forecast. The other point was the new international fire regulations, which were not drawn up suddenly. The question of the obsolescence of the B & I fleet and the new international fire regulations were both material considerations when a valuation was being made.

It is depressing that this overestimation of the value of the ships could have been made. The people bought three passenger/cargo/cattle vessels, six cargo/cattle vessels, some property and almost £¾ million of liquid assets. They paid £3.5 million for these assets. If the value of the liquid assets and of the properties is taken from the purchase price something over £2 million is left as the value of the ships. Perhaps the Minister will deal with this point. That £2 million turned out to be £1 million too much. That is 100 per cent too much. I can understand an expert being 10 per cent or 20 per cent wrong, plus or minus, but an over-valuation of 100 per cent, if that is the correct figure, is worrying when one is dealing with public money. It is worrying when the 100 per cent error is against the interests of the people and in favour of the interests of the private owners. This is a repetition of the classic pattern which we saw with railways, coalmines, waterworks or any utilities. The public must have these utilities and maintain them. The public buy them from the private owners when they cease to be profitable. The high price paid to the private ownership is used as an argument against nationalisation.

I welcome the initiative in acquiring the shipping line. I welcome also the vigour of the management. I would like to add my voice to that of Deputy O'Donnell who dealt with the lack of planning in transport. Transport is important everywhere as industrialisation grows and exports increase. Our country is an island and our economy is a very open one. We are dependent to a large extent on our exports and a coherent transport policy is very important to us. If we are to enter the EEC this matter will strike us very acutely. We would appear to be the weakest, smallest, slowest-growing of all the economies. We will need careful protection in regard to freight rates and efficiency in order to keep our industries competitive and to make our tourist industry competitive. It is no use saying that the State does not approve of doing such a thing.

The odd thing is that, while the Fianna Fáil Party, during the whole of their life, have made slightly frightened noises about socialism—at least they pretended to be slightly frightened when elections were pending—have been willing to implement policies in regard to transport and other State sectors which are very largely socialist. We in the Labour Party welcome some aspects of this, not all aspects, and those we do not welcome I shall come to in a moment.

The State has gone so profoundly into transport—CIE, Aer Lingus, B & I —that there is very little left. Seeing that we have no inhibitions in regard to public ownership, how can we have any inhibitions, if we have any sense at all, about a coherent plan for putting those publicly owned bits together? I am trying not to carp on this—there are so many things about B & I of which to be proud—but there is a bit of evidence of CIE and B & I crossing each other's lines. They are publicly-owned companies and surely the need to give our planners some sort of really good hard guideline to go on is now overwhelming. Surely everything that Deputy O'Donnell said about this is well-founded. I would simply like to add my own personal voice and that of the Labour Party to the plea that he made for a coherent transport plan.

Some of the difficulties that have arisen were, perhaps, unforeseeable. One is not very certain of this. The dedication to private enterprise of the Heath Government and their intransigence in aiding the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board has been partly responsible for the difficulties of that authority. This is a difficulty in regard to Birkenhead. However, let me say this, as somebody with no direct interest in transport but with an interest at the livestock production end, I know there are commercial interests who often in the past have been parasitic on the Irish cattle trade and who may be acutely angered or concerned about where the cattle go. Speaking as someone fairly close to the outlook of the people who produce the cattle I can assure the Minister, if he has any worries in that regard, that Irish farmers do not care how their cattle get to Britain provided the price is right and that it is done efficiently and quickly.

In regard to the agreements we have had with the nationalised British companies, I would like to ask what slice of the cake we are getting. The Minister talked about agreements with the UK authorities in two contexts, that of containerisation and the cattle trade. Have we what is, in the Minister's opinion, a reasonable influence in the shared arrangement? British Rail, as it was emerging prior to the beginning of 1970, is an indication that while we in the Labour Party might wish for or expect large British companies, be they public or private to behave a little better towards this country, in fact they do not; we can expect total ruthlessness and the pursuance of British national interests in the activities of these companies. It is up to us to fight as hard as we can in return. It is also up to us, as the public, to support quite consciously and specifically the companies in which our nation has an interest.

The last point I want to make, which comes to the heart of the matter of the public companies, is about the conditions in which we can wholeheartedly approve of the expenditure of public funds in a way such as is suggested by this Bill. First, we have no objection in principle and, secondly, we have a sense of pride, which we share with others, in the vigour and the energy with which the B & I company has been transformed. However, we are very concerned with the form of relationships which are worked out when public moneys are used to purchase and subsequently totally control companies such as the B & I. We have the circumstance that bodies like Bord na Móna or CIE are held up as an example of how awful public ownership is. This is not an opinion with which we concur. We are convinced that when a Minister comes to the House looking for public money for a purpose such as this, which in general we approve, we are entitled on behalf of the people, who in the end are paying the piper and, therefore, entitled to call the tune, to demand that public companies, in this case B & I, should set up different, more enlightened and more humane labour relations. This should apply not only to labour relations but to structure of management as well. We object profoundly to the idea that public money can be floated and used to support companies which are either very bad employers—and I am not making that particular charge in this instance as I could in the case of other State companies which I do not intend to discuss now—or else extremely old-fashioned and autocratic in their management and structure.

This is the irony of McKinseys in this context, that here they are, employed by a major British nationalised transport company and, simultaneously, interestingly, employed by an Irish publicly-owned transport company, and coming, of course, from the United States having got their business training in an atmosphere profoundly contemptuous of public ownership but making recommendations which both the British and the Irish seem disposed to accept. We believe that as the operation of any industry, particularly a bit of the transport industry like this, evolves, the people working in it at all levels will only work with vigour, with efficiency, with a willingness to innovate, precisely to the extent they feel part of it, committed to it. They will only feel that if they are no longer, as the ruthless old expression has it "hands". That is what they used to be. They will no longer accept being "hands"; they want to be total human beings with a sense of participation. Not, indeed, that this makes us hostile to the most sophisticated expertise in the management of a company, but you must have a structure which is a democratic one, an evolving one, which is a workshop in which you develop the sort of worker participation, the sort of industrial relations, which can get over the current problems of alienation and in-difference, and the current problems that mark labour relations all over the world practically.

Therefore, while approving of the general intent here, I should like to express my worries as to whether public moneys were expended to bale out a company that is inefficient and bankrupt and which in other circumstances would have been permitted to pay the price of its inefficiency, which would have been bankruptcy in a short time, and whether we paid too much.

Secondly, apart from the whole evolution of the thinking of the Government party in regard to the control of public companies and semi-State bodies—even if they are prepared to do nothing about it at this stage I want to record my objection and, perhaps, hear the Minister's comments—I should like to think that now when the Minister is asking for public funds there is an opportunity to explain that structures are being evolved in regard to management, worker participation and labour relations which will be in keeping with the decade we are living in, and also be in keeping with the fact that ultimately all the people, and disproportionately the poorest people through the present taxation system, are being asked to cough up the money.

If one wants to play pure old-fashioned laissez-faire capitalism then one can say: “Bash the workers” but if the Government have to say to the workers: “We want £3 million for this” then they owe them something in terms of a structure of management, of participation, and a humanity and modernity in labour relations that will make this both an efficient place to work in and a happy place to work in, a place that will evolve and have a highly sophisticated and skilled labour force which can deal with what we know is the beginning of a transport revolution and not the end of one.

First I should like to take up the last point made by Deputy Keating that is, the importance of our State-sponsored organisations setting a headline in regard to proper management structures and labour relations generally. That has been my desire since I became Minister for Transport and Power. Even though the policy of bringing in consultants has been open to certain obvious trite criticisms—it is easy enough to attack the whole notion of bringing in consultants to examine State-sponsored organisations—I have brought them into a number of our State bodies in the past two years. At the moment they are working in CIE. They have made a very thorough investigation into the whole structure of the B & I as it impinges on British Rail and other nationalised British transport undertakings and in relation to CIE.

Other consultants are advising me on matters of tourism and other matters concerning the internal arrangements of other State bodies. A very successful result has been the investigation carried out by McKinseys into the ESB which caused a complete change in the whole structure of the ESB. The wrong nature of the management structure there, in my view, was a contributory cause to the labour problems that have arisen over the years in the ESB. Since the adoption of the McKinsey recommendations in regard to a complete revamping of the management structure, not just at the top but going right down to the bottom rung of the ESB management arrangements, we have found that the greater delegation of responsibility in accordance with proper management organisation recommended by McKinsey has resulted in a very definite improvement in the morale of that organisation. The objective I had in bringing McKinsey into this particular transport problem was to unravel a very complex transport knot.

Deputy O'Donnell and Deputy Keating raised the question of having a national transport plan. I am all for rationalisation of administration generally but the evolution of a national transport plan per se is, with respect, a rather trite phrase when you consider the tremendous international complications involved. We are not our own masters, as it were, in regard to the immediate blue-printing of a national transport plan. The tackling of the very complex inter-relationship between B & I and CIE and the various transport undertakings in Britain and the need also for a tie-up between the B & I and Holland-America, or some other Continental line, involved a very complex investigation by McKinsey & Company and very complex negotiations with other undertakings in other countries. One just could not have a blue-print plan and decide that this will be it. As in any such negotiations and inter-relationships, one is very dependent on how far one can go and how much one can get.

All I am saying is that as a result of the investigations by McKinsey we have reached certain very important decisions which will be of very real benefit to the future of transport across the Irish Sea and into Europe. I was concerned about the situation that was developing at the start of 1970 when plans being undertaken by British Rail and B & I would involve considerable duplication in regard to terminal expenditure, shipping expenditure and equipment expenditure. That situation would also lead to a duplication of operating costs and to a freight war across the Irish Sea which would involve the taxpayers in both countries in fruitless expense. McKinsey & Company have unravelled that knot and agreement has been reached in principle, details of which will be announced very shortly and British Rail and B & I are now proposing to co-operate in regard to managing shared terminals at Dublin.

Mr. O'Donnell

That is planning, is it not? That is what I mean by transport planning.

In effect, what I am saying is that this is what they are doing. It is transport planning and I am not calling it by any pretentious name.

Mr. O'Donnell

It is planning in a haphazard way.

The Deputy should listen to me. We have got British Rail and CIE and B & I together to share the capital cost. Otherwise there would have been considerable expense on the taxpayers on both sides of the Irish Sea. A management organisation has now been established to share the terminals that are being constructed. In the future ships will be shared across the Irish Sea which will maximise shipping capacity and result in a cut down in duplicated expenditure by the two State organisations on redundant or unnecessary shipping space.

The sort of money involved in this sharing, at first glance, on present costs, would be in the region of £2 million: I am talking about capital sharing in regard to terminals and ships. With the escalation of this sort of capital expenditure, if the matter were allowed to get out of hand and develop into a rival freight war between the two organisations, the cost in capital terms would be twice that, and the cost in operating expenses would probably eventually bankrupt B & I. However, we have avoided that due to the agreement that has been reached by the two organisations and the shared arrangements in regard to the utilisation of equipment, terminals, facilities and ships. While competing in the operating sense, and competing for business in the marketing sense, and while preserving two separate marketing organisations that will compete for customers, the facilities available will be shared and thereby both capital and operating costs will be reduced. In my view this makes very good sense.

B & I and CIE, as the two organisations at home engaged in container traffic across the Irish Sea, have come together again in regard to the sharing of ship space which each utilises across the Irish Sea and in regard to sharing the facilities here at home. They will continue as two separate selling organisations, two separate marketing organisations. The CIE tie-up on the other side of the Irish Sea is with a different organisation, the National Freight Corporation which is separate from British Rail. This is what I meant when I said initially that one cannot devise an ideal national transport plan in isolation from the complications which exist on the other side of the Irish Sea.

Successive British Governments have so far failed to unravel the whole field of public enterprise which is highly complex in that at the present time there are in Britain six different public enterprise organisations to cater for land and sea transportation. CIE have a tie-up with one of them; B & I now are achieving a tie-up with British Railways. Pending the British working out their problems of rationalisation in the field of public enterprise transport we cannot decide on an ideal situation, which would be a total coming together of B & I and CIE. CIE have always been lined up with the National Freight Corporation and B & I are proposing to tie-up with Brtish Railways, a separate corporation. Therefore, having regard to the situation obtaining on the other side of the Irish Sea, B & I and CIE will continue on separate selling programmes so far as their freight facilities entail but at home they will share the facilities and shipping space.

I should like to mention the importance of the new arrangement between B & I and the Holland-America Line. This is important because it secures direct freight shipping facilities between Ireland and Europe and it is of particular importance in view of our pending entry into the EEC——

Is a further extension proposed to include transatlantic and Australian traffic?

I am only talking about regular sailings but it is open to have such arrangements to Australia and America by the new company. The Holland-America Line is an international line but I am thinking in terms of the importance of ensuring immediate and regular shipments between Ireland and the Continent. This is most important having regard to the difficulties experienced last year with the disappearance of Hibernian Transport. As the Deputy has mentioned, this means we are open for similar arrangements in other parts of the world, but the important matter to be secured was regular freight shipments between continental ports and Ireland. This has been secured with the development of the joint Holland-America and B & I shipping operation.

In relation to a national transport plan, while I am in favour of planning and rationalisation, I am not in favour of blueprinting in such a flexible area as international transport. Its flexibility has been emphasised by a point made by Deputy Keating in regard to the diminution in value of ships purchased in 1965 when the B & I line was taken over by the State and we had to pay for the existing assets. There is no question but that the ships were anything but an asset in the sense that everything changed almost overnight after the purchase of the B & I operation by the State in 1965. Almost immediately there was a situation where containerisation developed, exports of livestock diminished substantially, roll-on/roll-off traffic began to predominate and within a year or two of the purchase of the B & I line ships that were valued in the context of shipping in 1964 and 1965 had to be sold at substantially less because of the complete revolution in shipping methods. Completely new equipment had to be purchased at a substantial capital cost.

I mention this point as an example of the flexibility we must have in regard to transportation problems. The moneys involved for re-equipment and operating costs are substantial and this trend is likely to continue. Therefore, it is impossible to have a rigid blue-print for a transportation policy—one is dependent on international factors and the complexities of international transport organisations. They are particularly complex in Great Britain, our chief customer, and the area with which our cross-Channel transportation is concerned.

Through these three companies— B & I, Irish Shipping and CIE—the State will ensure effective Irish participation in freight transportation outside this country. The most relevant such participation is the B & I because of its direct total involvement in shipping to our main customer, Great Britain, and the most important State involvement is the involvement in B & I. It is important that we maintain these organisations in a sufficiently strong financial position so that they will have a stake in any arrangements that are made with British Rail or with any other State or private transportation system in Britain, with any transportation organisation such as Holland-America, or any organisation in Australia or elsewhere. We must maintain our organisations in such a position that they can enter any such tie-up in a sufficiently strong way to ensure that Irish interests are protected. In order to do that it is necessary to strengthen the management of the companies and to ensure that the Minister for Transport and Power maintains constant supervision of the operations of the organisations concerned with land and sea transport. They are diverse and complex and any overall transport plan would need to be flexible because of the day-to-day changes, the ebb and flow of thought and execution of policy in this complex sector.

I thought the best approach was to hire the best consultants available with a view to ensuring that a picture would emerge that would show us the way ahead. As far as the other organisations in Britain and on the Continent are concerned, with which our organisations are associated, there must be the maximum degree of rationalisation commensurate with efficient selling, which will result in distribution costs being kept as low as possible from the point of view of both the exporter and the importer. The McKinsey approach is the best approach: as far as possible, share facilities, share proposed capital investment, make maximum use of the expenditure of all moneys in both operating costs and capital expenditure, share to the greatest possible extent in this particular field and, at the same time, keep separate and competing the actual selling sectors. In broad outline this is the basic principle. That is the way I see it operating and we have taken the necessary steps to achieve this.

Deputy O'Donnell made a comparison between this Bill and the Bill that was before the House in regard to CIE. There is no valid comparison. The measure passed six months ago was designed to give a straight grant from the Exchequer to meet the running cost deficits of CIE. This is an entirely different matter. It is an equity investment.

Mr. O'Donnell

It is all taxpayers' money.

But it gives an equity investment and the B & I has very rapidly, having taken over an obsolescent organisation in 1965, put itself into a profit-making position. It has done this at tremendous capital cost, a capital cost which has resulted in an imbalance between loan capital and ordinary share capital investment. This is an investment by the State. This year the investment will be of the order of £3 million. This is an investment by the State in a profit-making organisation, an organisation which had a trading profit of over £1 million in the year ended 31st December, 1970. That was more than double the trading profit in 1969. All the graphs are rising graphs. I agree with Deputy O'Donnell that the percentage increase last year may not have been as high as it was the previous year, but the overall graph shows an upward trend. In 1965 the base was practically zero. In those circumstances increases in the first years of operation will naturally be of a very dramatic character and must inevitably level off to some extent.

Mr. O'Donnell

The spiral will be dramatic for two years and then it levels off.

That is my point. I do not mention this in any complacent spirit. There are problems in regard to the car ferry business. We need a great deal more of it. Duty free facilities have been recommended.

Mr. O'Donnell

I think the Minister will see the validity of that recommendation.

Naturally, I see the validity in the context of improving the attractiveness of the car ferry service. In 1967 we had no cars coming across. It was only in 1968 that the system was fully inaugurated and that accounts for the very dramatic increase in 1968 and 1969. The increase in 1970 and the projected increase for this year are not of the same dramatic proportions. We must make the facilities much more attractive. The graph is still rising. In 1969 the number of cars was 78,000; in 1970 it was 82,000 and the projected figure this year is 89,000. The service is now obviously in a far more competitive situation.

Mr. O'Donnell

A more competitive situation plus unforeseen adverse factors.

That is so. The observations and recommendations in regard to the provision of duty free facilities on ships and aeroplanes are being examined at the moment. The idea is certainly very attractive. It is one with which I would be in full accord.

Mr. O'Donnell

It is said that the reason fares are being stabilised on British and continental routes is that the income from duty free facilities enables the companies to stabilise fares. If we do the same thing it should lead to stabilisation also or, perhaps, even to a reduction in fares.

That is one factor. It might also mean a great deal from the point of view of the Exchequer because, if there was more business, that would offset any loss in revenue.

Mr. O'Donnell

That would be an added attraction.

There is no question about that. The report has just come to hand. The Deputy pointed out that the chairman of the B & I company made some remarks about this some months ago. The report is being examined at the moment.

Mr. O'Donnell

There is confusion about the livestock consortium. Is it reasonable to assume that a satisfactory solution will be reached?

This, again, is a matter of co-ordination between the two big shipping companies. The consortium is representative of the Cattle Exporters' Association, the B & I and British Railways. Their purpose is to ensure a link up by road with Heysham and by sea with Holyhead where road facilities are available. This does not take from any efforts made by any other private groups. A few such groups have operated successfully the transhipment of live cattle across the Irish Sea on occasion to Birkenhead and other ports. There is nothing to preclude such enterprise continuing. We are concerned in maintaining a basic link in which the State will have some participation through the B & I in conjunction with the other State organisations between here and two landing points in Britain, by road and rail. This does not take from private enterprise in this respect. There have been a number of successful private enterprise developments in regard to these and other ports; but the importance of the consortium is that, if the various private enterprise operations are suspended for a while, or if they terminate as has happened in a number of cases in the past, in the last analysis there will be a basic link on behalf of our community with Britain for our cattle exporters. This is fundamental.

Mr. O'Donnell

It is a very difficult problem.

It is, but it is essential to preserve this link. We are guaranteed it for the next five years, with further discussions as to the terms for the following five year period. This does not or has not prevented private operators from making their own arrangements in Birkenhead, Glasgow or any other port in England, Scotland or Wales where they may wish to land. By that there is no guarantee of security so far as the Irish farmer or Irish livestock exporter is concerned. Such a private operation may bring a very good deal for a period—this has happened—but what the community here must have is definite security for the shipper so that, come what may, the shipping link will be maintained. This is achieved by means of the consortium even though many cattle are being exported by other enterprising shippers through other routes at present and this is also a very valuable contribution and is no harm.

In conclusion, I wish to say that I am very thankful to the House for the contributions made by both Deputy O'Donnell and Deputy Keating. The spirit and policy adumbrated in this Bill is, in fact, planning and rationalisation as far as we can go. I emphasise that point in view of Deputy O'Donnell's introductory remarks. In effect, this is planning and the whole business of hiring consultants to ensure that rationalisation takes place is an example of planning on a national scale in the knowledge that whatever planning we do must be done by arrangement with other operators in other countries with whom we must bargain and deal to achieve all we can by way of Irish participation in such planning and rationalisation.

The purpose of the Bill is to ensure a two-fold practical arrangement whereby £3 million may be taken up by the Minister for Finance, not as subsidy, but as an additional investment of £3 million ordinary shares of £1 each in this profit making company. This investment can be made by the State with confidence having regard to the revolutionary changes made by the company in the past six years. These changes have resulted in doubling their trading profit in 1970 compared with 1969 in a period in which there was total re-equipment as regards ships and facilities and also in a period of revolutionary change in the whole shipping industry. The company had to change completely its whole modus operandi in the shipping of freight and passengers across the Irish Sea. In that situation over the past six years the company have proved themselves worthy of this type of investment by the State which will take the practical form of an investment of £1.3 million of equity in the current year designed to ensure a better balance between loan and equity capital in future.

The loan capital invested is also fully secured. Also, under this Bill the Minister for Finance may, after consultation with the Minister for Transport and Power, guarantee borrowings by the company that may be required in the future. This all adds up to a very healthy financial situation fraught with considerable problems now and in the time ahead but these problems are being tackled by means of the rationalisation of which I have spoken. In the circumstances I commend the Bill to the House as one enabling the Government to make the investment required in a company such as this in the confidence that it will be a worthwhile investment on behalf of the community.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take the remaining Stages today.
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