asked the Taoiseach if he proposes to have talks in the near future with the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland on matters of concern to the minority there.
2.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Northern Ireland Situation.
1.
asked the Taoiseach if he proposes to have discussions with the British Prime Minister on the question of reforms and on the role of the British Army in Northern Ireland.
3.
asked the Taoiseach how many times since 1969 official representations have been made to the British Government concerning selective justice and brutality in Northern Ireland and the delay in implementing the Northern Ireland reform programme.
4.
asked the Taoiseach whether he is satisfied that communications with the British Government through the Irish Embassy in London are keeping them sufficiently informed of this country's attitude to events in Northern Ireland.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 1, 2, 3 and 4 together.
The Government's views on matters relating to the north are conveyed to the British authorities from time to time by me, the Minister for Foreign Affairs or his Department. I am satisfied that the British Government are fully informed of our views at all times.
At our meeting last October in New York the British Prime Minister and I agreed to meet again this year. This meeting will take place at a mutually convenient time.
In view of the situation that has developed in Northern Ireland since October last would the Taoiseach not consider it advisable to have consultations, as a matter of urgency, with the British Prime Minister?
It is the Government's view that in present circumstances the British Government have the primary responsibility for implementing the Downing Street Declaration. For that reason our views in the matter are conveyed direct to the British authorities.
Could the Taoiseach say if he considers it satisfactory that since August, 1969, official representations were made only once to the British Government on the Northern Ireland situation?
I would not, if that were the case. Deputy Ryan mentioned this yesterday by way of supplementary question. At that time I had not read the report of the reply given in the British House of Commons. Deputy Ryan did not identify the person who made that statement nor in what circumstances it was made. I now discover that it was in reply to a parliamentary question that Mr. Royle, the Under Secretary to the Foreign Secretary, made this reply. I am satisfied that the reply was made on a very narrow technical and legalistic interpretation by the Foreign Office of the meaning of the words "official representation". Since then I understand the British officials have indicated it was based on such a technical interpretation. The facts are that it is commonly known and, indeed, is on public record, that our Foreign Minister met Sir Alec Douglas Home on no less than four occasions since Sir Alec assumed the office of Foreign Secretary. He met him once in New York and three times in London. I, myself, met the present British Ambassador in my office in Government Buildings on several occasions and we were not talking about the weather when we met.
About the climate.
Also, we have made contacts and have had discussion with our representatives in London—the ambassador and his staff—on, I can say truthfully, two or three occasions a week since 1969. I hope the House will now believe that representations were made more than once.
Why conceal that information yesterday?
Why the reluctance on the part of the Taoiseach to give this information until this moment? I tabled Question No. 3 but I do not think the Taoiseach has answered it. Is the Taoiseach aware that Nationalists in the north have been jailed for shouting "Up the IRA" while others who shouted "To Hell with the Pope" were not even arrested? Is the Taoiseach aware that in Dungiven last Sunday members of what we might call a sectarian group challenged the Government, the RUC and the Army, used stones in their attempts to burst their way through the cordon but only three were arrested and those were released almost immediately? Would the Taoiseach not agree that there is this type of selective justice in Northern Ireland and that the people of that part of the country are of the opinion that the Government of Ireland are letting them down, that our Government are not protesting vigorously enough to the British Government on this question of selective justice and on the brutality that exists at times towards one section of the people there?
I believe the methods we have adopted are producing better results. To disclose the import or the subject matter of all our representations as made from time to time, or of the discussions we have had with the British authorities at different levels from time to time, might well tend to worsen community relations because Deputies will be aware that tempers are sometimes at flash-point in Northern Ireland. It would be my wish not, in any way, to exacerbate that situation. The fact that we have not publicised our contacts is due to that consideration.
Can the Taoiseach tell us why it is that it takes a written reply in the House of Commons from the Under Secretary of the Foreign Office before he can tell this Parliament the exact nature of his representations to the British Government during the past year or two? The Taoiseach was unable to give any explanation to the House yesterday. In fact he refused to do so but now, having discovered that the Under Secretary of the Foreign Office gave a written reply to the Member for Tyrone/South Fermanagh, he finds it possible to give some explanation to the House as to the nature of his contacts. Will the Taoiseach comment on that?
As the Deputy is aware these contacts are useful in most cases when the subject matter of them, and even sometimes the knowledge of them, are not publicly known. Let me say again that when Deputy Ryan made the suggestion yesterday I did not know that the statement made in the British House of Commons was made by an Under Secretary in reply to a parliamentary question. We had a Government meeting yesterday morning and on days on which these meetings take place, I do not have time to read the newspapers in the morning. For that reason I missed that report. The fact is that he, having made the statement, wrongly created the impression that there was only one contact. I hope this was done unwittingly. I would like to believe it was.
Can the Taoiseach say if he is satisfied that in practice the reforms in Northern Ireland conform to the Downing Street undertakings?
I believe the intention is that they should but I understand there is some disillusionment among the minority that the reforms in practice do so conform.
Will the Taoiseach take up that aspect of the matter with the British Government?
Yes, I have done so already on a number of occasions.
Should it not be the concern of the Taoiseach and the Government to see that the Downing Street assurances are implemented fully?
Absolutely.
Would the Taoiseach not consider initiating talks on the problem between himself, the British Prime Minister and the Northern Ireland Prime Minister?
I would not see any useful purpose in that at the moment. The British Government, as I have said, are primarily responsible for the implementation of the Downing Street Declaration and I believe that our contacts would be more suitably made with Britain.
Question No. 5.
I thank the Taoiseach for acknowledging that I am keeping him informed and if he keeps in touch with me I shall be glad to inform him further when possible.
Thank you very much.
The Taoiseach has said that the British authorities have indicated that the answer given in the British Parliament on Monday was as a result of a very strict legal interpretation of the question. Would the Taoiseach say to whom this indication has been given and if, in particular, it has been given to the gentleman who asked the question, Mr. Francis McManus, MP? Further, has he been informed that steps have been taken by the British authorities to put this on the records of the British Parliament so that adequate information will be given there and not the misleading information which appears to have been given on Monday last?
When the answer was published, our Foreign Ministry immediately contacted the British Embassy. An acknowledgment has now been received to the effect that the answer was based on a technical interpretation of the meaning of the words "official representation".
The Taoiseach has proclaimed himself to be the second guarantor of the rights of the minority in question. Will the Taoiseach tell the House how he can discharge his duties as guarantor without having contact with the Government in the area? Will he say whether the Government in Northern Ireland or the Government of the United Kingdom accept him in his role of second guarantor or whether this is something he offers simply to the people of the 26 Counties?
I do not care whether they accept me or not. I believe I have certain influence in this situation——
What gave the Taoiseach to believe that?
——and I hope to exercise that influence to the best advantage and I think I am doing that in the manner in which I am now acting.
Could I ask the Taoiseach——
I am calling Question No. 5. I have allowed ten supplementaries on these questions.
Just this point, on a point of order: there has been some correction arising out of information coming into the possession of the Taoiseach which he did not have yesterday. In view of that information which he now has may I ask him if he is still satisfied that he has the support of what he referred to yesterday as responsible Opposition quarters in the north since originally dissatisfaction was, in fact, expressed by Mr. McManus about the quality of the representation going on between the Dublin and London Governments? Mr. McManus was my source in referring yesterday to dissatisfaction in Northern Opposition quarters.
If the implication of that supplementary question is that Mr. McManus is not responsible, I do not accept that at all. I am not going to assess the responsibility of Mr. McManus. I accept that he is a responsible source for information but I, too, have responsible sources for information.
And the Taoiseach is satisfied that Northern Opposition quarters are satisfied with his handling?
I am, yes.