Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 30 Jun 1971

Vol. 255 No. 2

Firearms Bill, 1971: From the Seanad.

The Dáil went into Committee to consider amendments from the Seanad.

Minister for Justice (Mr. O'Malley)

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 1:—

In line 27, "for use solely as part of such firearm" inserted after "part".

This amendment, which was put down originally by Senator O'Higgins, is intended to put beyond doubt that the right to sell a spare, replacement or extra part of a firearm without requiring the production by the purchaser of a separate certificate or other authorisation in respect of the part in question and the right of the purchaser to keep and use such a part without a separate authorisation are to be subject not only to the condition that the purchaser must already hold a firearm certificate but also to the condition that the part is to be used solely as a part of the firearm to which the certificate relates. This, of course, was the intention from the beginning and the change is merely intended as a drafting improvement to make that clearer.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): As the Minister has said, as the section was originally drafted there was a doubt, we thought, as to whether the current holder of a firearm under a certificate could purchase a part for that firearm or whether he could purchase unlimited supplies or parts. The amendment passed in the Seanad on the motion of Senator O'Higgins puts it beyond doubt that the person can only purchase a part provided it is for use in a firearm for which he already holds a licence. I accept the amendment.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. O'Malley

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 2:

In lines 34 and 35, ", and `sale' shall be construed accordingly" deleted.

This amendment proposes the deletion of a superfluous part of subsection (2). The word "sale" does not appear in the section.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): I accept that.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. O'Malley

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 3:

In page 3, the following new section inserted before section 6:

"( ) (1) Section 9 of the Principal Act is hereby amended by the insertion after subsection (7) of the following subsections:

‘(8) Registration (including registration in pursuance of a renewal of a previous registration) of a person in the register of firearms dealers may, at the discretion of the Minister, be made subject to the condition that the person shall not deal in firearms or deal in ammunition otherwise than by the sale and purcase of ammunition for shotguns, for unrifled airguns and for rifled firearms of a calibre not exceeding .22 inches, and a person whose registration in the register of firearms dealers is made subject to the condition aforesaid and who fails to comply with it shall, notwithstanding anything contained in section 10 (1) of this Act, be guilty of an offence under this Act.

(9) In any proceedings a certificate under the seal of the Minister stating that the registration of a person in the register of firearms dealers was subject, on a specified day or during a specified period, to the condition referred to in subsection (8) of this section shall be evidence of that fact unless the contrary is proved.'.

(2) Section 10 of the Principal Act is hereby amended by the insertion after subsection (6) of the following subsection:

‘(7) The references in subsections (2) and (3) of this section to a registered firearms dealer shall, in relation to a sale of any firearm or ammunition, be construed as references to a registered firearms dealer for whom it is lawful to purchase that firearm or ammunition by way of trade or business.'.

(3) Section 11 of the Principal Act is hereby amended by the insertion after subsection (2) of the following subsection:

‘(2A) If and when the Minister is satisfied that any person who is registered in the register of firearms dealers and whose registration is subject to the condition referred to in section 9 (8) of this Act has failed to comply with the condition, the Minister may remove the name of such person from the register aforesaid.'".

This amendment, which is related to Section 51 of the Finance Bill, proposes to empower the Minister for Justice to make the registration, or the re-registration, of a firearms dealer conditional on his confining his dealings as a firearms dealer to the sale and purchase of ammunition for shotguns, for unrifled airguns and for rifled firearms of a calibre not exceeding .22 inches. Section 51 of the Finance Bill provides for duty at the rate of £25 per annum to be paid by an "ordinary" firearms dealer and at the rate of £3 per annum by a dealer subject to the condition.

The reference in the proposed new subsection (8) of section 9 of the Principal Act to section 10 (1) of that Act is due to the fact that subsection 10 (1) might be construed, in the absence of the proposed subsection (8), as permitting any firearms dealer, that is including a dealer subject to the condition, to manufacture, et cetera, any firearm or ammunition. It is desirable to have it put beyond doubt that a dealer who is registered subject to the “sporting ammunition” condition cannot avail himself of the final clause of Section 10 (1) save in respect of sporting ammunition.

The proposed subsection (9) of section 9 of the Principal Act is intended to avoid a situation where an officer of the Department would have to appear in court to prove that a dealer was subject to the "sporting ammunition" condition. It may be compared with section 24 of the 1964 Act, which provides that in a prosecution for an offence under the Principal Act, it shall not be necessary to prove that a certificate, licence, et cetera under that Act does not exist.

The purpose of the proposed subsection (2) is to put beyond doubt that it is only where a firearms dealer is not subject to the "sporting ammunition" condition that it shall be lawful to "sell", that is to sell, give or lend, to him in his capacity as a firearms dealer a firearm or any ammunition other than "sporting ammunition".

The purpose of the proposed subsection (3) is to enable the Minister to remove from the register of firearms dealers any dealer whose registration is subject to the "sporting ammunition" condition where the Minister is satisfied that he has broken the condition. This would be appropriate in a case thought to be urgent. There is already power in Section 11 (2) of the Principal Act to remove from the register any dealer who has been convicted of an offence under the Act.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): The Minister has made the position clear. I was in some doubt until the Minister made his statement. I am glad to say I put the same interpretation on it as the Minister. Under this limited firearms licence a dealer can only sell ammunition? He will not be able to sell even an ordinary sporting shotgun or a .22 rifle or any form of firearm?

Mr. O'Malley

That is correct.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): His licence will confine him to selling firearms?

Mr. O'Malley

No, to selling sporting ammunition.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): To selling sporting ammunition only. Subsection 9 is the section that gives the Minister power to issue a certificate and that is accepted in court as proof until the contrary is proved. The amendments are acceptable to us.

Mr. Tully

The amendments are acceptable to us also. Until now I thought it was quite clear but, having listened to Deputy Fitzpatrick who said he had doubt until the Minister explained it to him, I am wondering what the courts will do with it.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): I came to the same conclusion as the Minister.

Question put and agreed to.

Amendments reported and agreed to.