asked the Minister for Education whether, in view of the statement of his Parliamentary Secretary in reply to Question No. 36 of 30th June last that no instruction, other than that contained in his Department's circular of 12th May requesting schools not to enter into arrangements for the employment of additional staff without first seeking the authority of his Department, had been issued to school managers, he will state if officials of his Department have continued since that date to instruct school managers to cancel appointments of such staff made prior to the receipt of his Department's circular; and, if so, if he will immediately require a withdrawal of such instructions and prevent further similar instructions being issued.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - School Staff Employment.
38.
As the Deputy was informed in the reply given by my Parliamentary Secretary on the 30th June, schools were requested not to enter into arrangement for the employment of additional staff without first seeking the authority of the Department and giving a full statement of the reasons which made any additional appointments necessary. Every application for additional staff was examined on its merits. So far approval has been given for the appointment of 450 additional teachers in secondary schools and 242 such teachers in vocational schools.
The main factors taken into account when making assessment of each school's requirements were the pupil-teacher ratio in the school, the curriculum being followed and, the necessity to cater for the various subjects. The extent to which a school might have been committed to making an appointment was also taken into account.
The examination of the cases involved is still proceeding. There is no question of the officers of the Department operating in this matter in any way which was not fully covered by the circular to which the Deputy refers.
Will the Minister agree that he has in his possession details of three cases where appointments were made before the circular was issued. They are therefore not additional appointments and here his officers have instructed that both teachers be dismissed? Was not that outside the terms of the circular and would he instruct the managers in these cases to reverse the decision so that staff employed before the circular was received will be reappointed, of course when the staffs are within the proper pupil-teacher ratio?
I do not accept that officers of my Department instructed managers to disemploy teachers.
What?
Quite possibly what happened is that having received notification from the Department to say that they had their quota, perhaps they rang up the Department and asked about this and were probably told they had got their quota. The quota this year is on the basis of 20 to one.
Is the Minister suggesting that nuns from Carlow, Sligo and Dublin are not telling the truth when they say they were specifically instructed to disemploy teachers they had taken on?
I am not suggesting there is a fabrication on the part of anybody. These cases are still being considered.
But those people have been disemployed.
In relation to the type of situation mentioned by the Deputy, once a further case is made the matter is re-examined. I cannot tell of course, what the result of this might be.
Is the Minister not aware that the Meath Vocational Education Committee have had to cancel appointments made? Is he aware this means cancelling classes unless the Department make up their minds between now and the end of this month?
The question refers to secondary education.
It does not.
I told the Deputy yesterday that in any cases where requests for additional staffs have been made to the Department, if the requests are justifiable they will be sanctioned. If the requests are not reasonable I told him they would not be sanctioned.
Where staff appointments are made and then cancelled, it will be impossible to get teachers if it is left over for another couple of weeks. Why cannot the Department make up their minds now while teachers are still available?
We are making a considerable number of additional teachers available this year in both the vocational and secondary fields.
The Minister said there is a misunderstanding between the nuns concerned and the Department. Can he not say simply that no teachers appointed before receipt of the circular will be dismissed? Can he make that plain now? Would he not say that it was not his intention? I am looking for a straight answer.
The position is that where a school has contracted definitely to employ a teacher on transfer from another school there is no question of the Department not honouring that. In other cases the matter will be considered on their merits.
Where will the teachers be got in October?
The Minister is suggesting that a contract entered into before May will be dishonoured. He is implying that there will be cases where contracts will be dishonoured.
All these cases will be examined on their merits.
They will be examined on their merits and some of them will be turned down. Is he proposing that all these contracts will be dishonoured?
We are operating on the basis of a quota of 20 to one.
Galway races.
I am talking of cases where the school is entitled to 30 teachers and gets only 22.
The Deputy is simply stating that. This is a matter of whether the school is entitled or is not entitled.
There is a ratio laid down of 15 to one.
I have already pointed out that this year we are operating on a ratio of 20 pupils per teacher. The quota was laid down at 15 to one but in my view that was necessary only at a time when the schools were very small and we had to have a low pupil-teacher ratio because otherwise it would not have been possible to cover the range of subjects. The whole matter will be discussed in the autumn by the school managers, the teacher organisations and the Department. This has been already pointed out to the Deputy by the Parliamentary Secretary.
We cannot continue on this.
May we take it that in the examination which will be carried out in cases which are justified there will be nothing to fear in regard to the ratio.
Where the Department is satisfied that the need is there——
That is different.
——and, as I have stated on numerous occasions here since I started answering supplementary questions, we are working on a quota of 20 to one.
Have appointments been made? The appointments must stand on the basis laid down in the rules of the Department. Is that not a fair question? Do not hedge.
I am calling Question No. 39.
We have found a situation where the fact that a school had a higher diploma student last year getting his teaching practice there that we were being asked to accept this as meaning that the school had a contract with him merely by saying: "There may be a job here for you next year."
Question No. 39. The Chair is asking the Minister to answer Question No. 39.
I am talking of the case in which appointments are made. Are people to be dismissed?
What I am ensuring is that people, on transfer from another school, can be assured that the contract will be honoured.
Question No. 39. The Chair must have some say in the matter of questions.
Certainly the House has no say. I ask leave to raise this matter on the Adjournment.