asked the Minister for Finance (a) the total amount provided in 1970-71 and 1971-72 for pensions to widows of civil servants who retired before July, 1968; (b) the total amount actually spent in the year 1970-71; (c) the number of such widows in receipt of pensions in the years 1970-71 and 1971-72 to date; (d) what proportion of the amount paid to such widows in pensions in 1970-71 was deducted for tax purposes through PAYE; (e) what amount of money is estimated to have been saved by the Social Insurance Fund and in social assistance as the result of payment on these pensions; (f) what percentage of current civil service salaries is provided for the purpose of widows' pensions; (g) what the cost would be of accepting pre-1968 widows fully into the widows' pension scheme and (h) whether there is any provision under which civil service widows, in receipt of very small pensions which preclude them from benefiting from social welfare pensions and fringe benefits, can renounce their civil service pensions; and, if not, if he will introduce the appropriate legislation.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Civil Service Widows.
The figures available relate to payments to widows and children of civil servants who retired or died prior to 23rd July, 1968. Details are as follows:—
(a) Amount provided, 1970-71, £392,500; 1971-72, £379,500.
(b) Amount spent in 1970-71, £420,000. The excess of expenditure over the provision was met by savings on other provisions for superannuation.
(c) The number of widows in receipt of pensions was 2,048 in 1970-71 and is 2,040 in 1971-72.
(d) Tax is not deducted under PAYE from civil service widows'ex gratia pensions. The tax is assessed under Schedule E and tax is deducted in quarterly instalments. The total income tax deducted in 1970-71 was approximately £37,000.
(e) There are no savings in respect of the Social Insurance Fund as contributory pensions are not subject to a means test. As regards widows and old age non-contributory pensions, the records of the Department of Social Welfare are not kept in such a way as to show readily the savings in question. Compilation of the information would entail disproportionate expenditure of time and labour.
(f) A deduction of 1½ per cent per annum is made from current salaries and in addition a 1 per cent deduction is made from lump sums for each year not covered by periodic contributions. These payments relate to the Civil Service contributory scheme.
(g) The additional cost of extending the benefits of the contributory pensions scheme to the widows and children of civil servants in receipt of payments under the ex gratia scheme would at present cost around £380,000 for a full year.
(h) Rule 2 of the Seventh Schedule to the Social Welfare Act, 1952, provides that if it appears that a person deprives himself or herself of any income or property for the purpose of qualifying for pension, or for pension at a higher rate than that to which he or she would otherwise be entitled, that income or property should be taken to be part of his or her means. It is not proposed to alter this provision.
Would the Minister not agree with regard to the last part of this question that, where there is a very small pension and where as a result of that very small pension the widow concerned is precluded from receiving fringe benefits and possibly also social assistance of some kind, she ought to be in a position to renounce her pension which is standing in the way of her getting these benefits? Is that not common justice and commonsense?
No, there are two aspects of this. What the Deputy is suggesting is that the people concerned should have the right to opt out of one and into the other. I do not think that is the right approach. I am examining with the Minister for Social Welfare the possibility of widows in the categories mentioned here, who are over 70 and who would otherwise be entitled to the fringe benefits and who are close to the margin, being entitled to get the fringe benefits.
I am grateful to the Minister for that.