asked the Minister for Social Welfare what changes in the social services will be necessary on Ireland's accession to the EEC.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Social Welfare Services.
27.
As I have previously explained, there is a wide variety of social security systems in the member countries of the EEC. There is, therefore, no single standard to which Ireland would have to conform on accession. To facilitate the free movement of workers, arrangements exist for aggregating periods of insurable employment, et cetera, in different member countries, and for payment of benefit anywhere within the Community.
The implementation of these arrangements is largely an administrative matter, and is not likely to involve any significant changes.
May we take it from the Minister's reply that if we accede to the EEC there will be no improvement whatsoever in our present social services?
I did not say that.
Is that what the Minister means?
No.
What does the Minister mean? The answer is very vague. The Minister said there would be no improvement in our social services.
I said no such thing. What I said was that there was no single standard to which Ireland would have to conform on accession. The other implication in the supplementary question which I want to answer is that on entry to the EEC we hope to improve our social welfare plans.
If we accede to the EEC how will our present social services compare with those in other countries? There must be some way in which we can compare our children's allowances and other social service payments with those in EEC countries. Do we even conform to the minimum standards of the EEC countries?
I discussed this very question with the commissioner responsible for these matters in Brussels recently. He pointed out what I already knew and what the Deputy already knows: that there are no two countries in the EEC at present having the same type of social welfare benefits nor is there any uniformity. What they do expect is that the member States have a certain minimum.
But they are all better than us.
I would hope that as a result of our entering we would be rapidly enabled to be as good as they are.
By some process of magic.
Would the Minister agree that it is a stated objective of the Community that the level of social services should be made uniform among the participants?
There is a vague reference in the Treaty of Rome to harmonisation but as yet, as the Minister for Foreign Affairs will confirm, there has been no effort made among existing members towards that. I was told by the commissioner responsible that they are quite happy to let each country develop its own system.
Can I take it from the Minister's reply that it is not contemplated to make an effort at harmonisation in the event of our becoming a member of the Community?
There is no reason why we should be just compelled to do what they are doing. There is no reason why we should not go one better if we want to and if our resources enable it.
Is there any prospect, in view of the paucity of the information available in these fields, apart from family allowances, that such a body as the Economic and Social Research Institute might be commissioned to make comparative studies in the six fields?
We would not have to commission any body. This information is already available and I have given that information in reply to another question here today.
28.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he will give details of (1) children's allowances, (2) unemployment benefit, (3) disability benefit, (4) old age pensions, (5) widows' pensions and (6) dependant allowances in each of the EEC countries.
The information requested by the Deputy is contained in two publications available in the Oireachtas Library, the titles of which are "Comparative Tables of the Social Security Systems of the Member States of the European Communities", 6th edition, 1 July, 1970 (French version), published by the Commission of the Communities and "Social Security Programs Throughout the World" 1969, published by the United States Department of Health, Education and Welfare.
These two publications contain all the information the Deputy is seeking. I have photostats of the more relevant extracts from them here and it is quite a volume.
Are they in the Library?
Yes.
Would it not have been possible for the Minister, from the information available in the Library, to give a more satisfactory answer to the previous question as to how our services compare with those in the EEC?
It is not quite so easy. If the Deputy reads these publications he will have different thoughts about the whole system because in many of the European countries employer participation is part of the benefits, and for family allowances, for instance, in France, there must be at least two members of the family before any allowance is payable; in Germany and the Netherlands there must be at least three before any allowance is paid. There are supplementary benefits in accordance with the conditions of the family, and to make an exact comparison, one would have to read the entire publications from one end to the other.
And the Minister did not do that.
Indeed I did.
Further to my previous question on which I spoke of comparative studies vis-à-vis Ireland and the Six, which is quite distinct from the comparative studies available in the Library on the social security systems within the Six and the analysis of the particular systems, would the Minister not agree that there is serious need for a comprehensive and detailed comparative study of the Irish social security system under the six headings outlined in Question No. 28 and the precise current availability of these services within the Six? The documents in the Library do not convey comparisons in relation to levels of——
The Deputy may not make a speech on this question.
Surely the Deputy is not suggesting this is not going on. Officials from the Department of Social Welfare have been in Brussels on a number of occasions dealing with administrative matters in relation to technical adaptation, the requirements as a result of changes in legislation and statutory regulations which will be necessary when we become members. We are very well aware of all the changes that are necessary. I would like to say here that we have benefits that many of the other countries have not got at all. If there is any difference it would only be in respect of rates.
That is rather a vital difference.
Benefits entirely financed from the Exchequer are hardly known in the EEC countries. They are all social insurance or employer participation orientated.
29.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he will give details of how the social services in the Twenty-Six Counties differ from those in the North; and the total extra cost of putting our social services on a par with those in the North.
Broadly speaking the main difference between the social security services here and those in the Six Counties are that our social insurance scheme covers only employed persons, while the Six Counties scheme covers employed, self-employed and non-employed; the flat-rate benefits payable in the Six Counties are in certain cases supplemented by earnings-related payments paid for by contributions from employers and employees; there are no specific assistance schemes in the Six Counties corresponding to our non-contributory old age and widows' pensions, unemployment assistance, home assistance, et cetera, but supplementary benefit is payable, to bring income up to a specified weekly level; there is no provision in the Six Counties for free travel, free electricity and free radio and television licences as provided here.
Details of the specific services including rates of contributions and benefits, qualifying conditions, et cetera, may be obtained from the “Summary of Social Insurance and Assistance Services” published by my Department, and the corresponding publication “Everybody's Guide to Social Security in Northern Ireland” prepared by the Six County Ministry of Health and Social Services. Because of the differences in coverage and qualifying conditions between the two systems, it would not be practicable to arrive at a reliable figure of the cost of bringing them into line.
Without giving a completely accurate and reliable estimate would the Minister have some idea what it would cost to put our services on a par with those in Northern Ireland?
An estimate?
Yes. The Minister for Health was able to give it in respect of health. He said it would cost £30 million to put our services on a par with those in the North.
I question the wisdom of giving a figure because it can be quite far out. Our social welfare costs are now moving into the range of £103 million which is quite a formidable sum. I would estimate that approximately half that would be required to bring our services up to the level of those in the North.
Would the Minister agree that, in contrast with that, the total sum payable in Northern Ireland in transfer payments for social welfare is significantly higher than the total sum payable here, as a direct comparison of the national accounts shows; that with half the population that means that the per capita payment is about 2.2 times what it is here; and how does he reconcile that with a figure of £50 million?
That is not correct, taking one scheme with another.
I am taking the total social welfare schemes together.
The big difference is in family allowances, as the Deputy well knows. Our recent social legislation, for example, the redundancy scheme and the occupational injuries scheme, are as good as if not better than theirs.
Is the Minister suggesting that it is incorrect to state that the total sum in transfer payments is bigger than our sum for half the population? Is the Minister challenging me on that?
I am.
Right. I will put down a question to the Minister to enable him to give the exact figures.
What percentage of the gross national product in the North is devoted to these services?
I have not got that information.
Whose gross national product? The Six Counties or ours?
Would the Minister confirm to the House the tentative figure he has just given, if we heard him correctly say that it would require a further £50 million?
I said that was my estimate.
Double it and it would still be too low.
It would not.
I will ask a question next week.
There are almost 400 questions to be dealt with and Deputies are complaining that their questions are not being answered.
Indeed we are.
This is the reason they are not being answered.
If Ministers gave the information asked for we would not have to ask so many supplementaries. Would the Minister accept that the figure of £50 million is an extremely conservative one and that at least £80 million to £100 million is nearer the mark, as Deputy FitzGerald will, I am sure, readily confirm?
Yes.
I do not agree with that.