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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 3 Nov 1971

Vol. 256 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Vote 47: Social Welfare.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £75,326,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1972, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Social Welfare for certain services administerd by that Office, for payments to the Social Insurance Fund, and for sundry grants.

As Deputies are aware, last year's Estimate for Social Welfare was agreed without discussion and a motion was put on the Order Paper subsequently to enable a debate to take place on the activities of the Department of Social Welfare for that year. It is proposed to take the motion and the current year's Estimate together.

The net Estimate for Social Welfare for 1971-72 is £75,326,000. This represents an increase of more than £11 million over the original Estimate of £64,158,000 for 1970-71. We had a Supplementary Estimate of £8,730,000 towards the end of March to cover the cost of the 1970 Budget increases and, when this is taken into account, the net increase comes to about £2½ million. We will, of course, require a Supplementary Estimate this year also, because of the increases announced in the Budget, as there is no provision for these increases in the published Estimate. It is, therefore, rather difficult to make valid comparisons between the provision for 1971-72 and that for 1970-71 as set out in the Estimates Volume and I would ask Deputies to bear in mind that most subheads for 1971-72 will be increased by a Supplementary Estimate later in the year.

The main reason for the increase of £2,438,000 is that the increases in payment rates and other improvements made last year will operate for the full 12 months in the current financial year as compared with eight months for assistance and six months for insurance in 1970-71. In addition, there is an extra pay day for some services. These increases are offset by a reduction in the provision for unemployment assistance and in some cases would be greater but for a downward trend in the number of recipients. This applies particularly to non-contributory widows' pensions.

The estimated expenditure and income of the Social Insurance Fund are set out in the Appendix to the Estimate. Total expenditure for the current year shows an increase of approximately £6 million. Here, again, it is difficult to make valid comparison between certain figures for 1971-72 and 1970-71 for the reason I have already mentioned and, further, because of the introduction last year of new schemes of invalidity and retirement pensions. For instance the Estimate for disability benefit shows a substantial reduction due to the transfer of many claimants to the new schemes. Similarly in the case of unemployment benefit there was a transfer to retirement pension with a corresponding reduction in the provision for the current year. The income of the Social Insurance Fund is expected to increase by about £5 million as a result of the increased contribution rates operative from October 1971. The net result is that the payment from the Exchequer to the fund shows an increase of about £1 million.

On the Second Reading of the Social Welfare Bill, 1971, I gave estimates of the cost of the various proposals contained in the Bill. On the social assistance side the cost in a full year is estimated at £3,783,000 and on the social insurance side £6,709,000, a total of almost £10½ million. When this is taken into account, the expenditure on our social welfare services is now running at an annual rate of £128 million. Administration costs amount to about £5¾ million a year, so that the total yearly bill is roughly £134 million. This is quite a formidable sum and I would ask Deputies to have regard to it when they criticise as inadequate the rates payable under particular schemes. In this connection I think it is only fair to say that I feel we are altogether too prone to indulge in general condemnation of our services. Some indulde in this with a very inadequate knowledge of what exactly is available under the different schemes and the great majority without giving credit for the many improvements made down the years. I am not for a moment suggesting that further improvements are not desirable—indeed I can assure the House that I will continue to effect improvements within the limits of available resources—but I strongly deprecate the attitude that our services are something of which we must be ashamed, and that we are lagging far behind other countries in these matters. In the final analysis the Government can provide only that level of services for which the community, whether as taxpayers, employers or insured contributors, is prepared to pay. When it becomes evident that the community is prepared to pay substantially more, I, as Minister for Social Welfare, will be only too glad to introduce further improvements.

On this question of improvements, my Department have been working on the preparation of a scheme of pay-related disability and unemployment benefit as promised in the Third Programme of Economic and Social Development. While a great deal of ground has been covered, a number of difficult technical problems remain to be solved before the necessary legislation can be drafted. In that programme, mention was made also of detailed examinations of the children's allowances scheme, the scope of social insurance, and the social assistance schemes generally. As Deputies are aware, the scope of social insurance was extended this year by the raising of the remuneration ceiling for compulsory insurance in the case of nonmanual workers from £1,200 to £1,600 per annum. An analytical study of the children's allowances scheme is being carried out as part of a programme budgeting exercise in my Department.

My Department are currently engaged also in a wide-ranging review of our assistance services including home assistance, with a view to framing a new comprehensive code of social assistance which will probably involve a radical restructuring of the various existing schemes, entailing the re-designing of the present scales of payment so as to reflect more accurately the different requirements of various categories of recipients.

In order to achieve a proper overall development of the State income maintenance services greater integration of the present home assistance scheme with those services would seem to be an essential part of the reform programme. One of the possibilities I have in mind is that the State schemes would be supported by a national reserve scheme of assistance with standardised uniform scales of payment to cater for those cases that do not qualify, for one reason or another, for assistance or benefit under the specific schemes or to supplement the payment under a specific scheme where this would be called for to meet the requirements of a particular case. Such a reserve scheme would replace the present scheme of home assistance with its widely varying standards of payment. I have under active consideration a number of alternative ways of dealing with the whole problem and in this regard schemes in other countries are being studied. When this examination has been completed and an overall assessment and evaluation of the position has been made, I will decide the lines which the programme of reform I intend recommending to the Government should follow.

As part of the general review to which I have referred, my Department have already this year carried out a detailed survey of the home assistance service throughout the country and the material obtained has been discussed with representatives of the superintendent assistance officers and assistance officers who are directly engaged in the administration of that service.

When moving a Supplementary Estimate for my Department on 30th March last, I gave a review of the operation of the principal new services introduced last year. It is probably not necessary for me to go over this ground again, but Deputies may be interested to know that the number in receipt of deserted wife's allowance is now 1,500, the number of retirement pensioners is 4,100, and the number receiving invalidity pension is 12,200. I should also mention that the current provision for social insurance contains for the first time a sum of £205,000 for death grants.

In the debate on the 1971 Bill, I dealt in some detail with the action being taken to protect employees against loss of benefit arising from failure of employers to stamp insurance cards. I have no doubt that all Deputies deplore any action by an employer which could jeopardise a worker's right to social insurance benefits. We should, I feel, equally deplore the action of unscrupulous individuals who make fraudulent claims on our services. These dishonest claims are made by persons who, while working, declare themselves to be unemployed by signing the live register, or who conceal their full means, or represent themselves to be ill when they are fit for work. I am sure we all agree that social welfare funds cannot be allowed to become the pool in a game of cheating the Government. The prevention of abuses in relation to the social welfare services is a problem which is always receiving attention in my Department. While every effort is made, as it must be if we are to operate the laws passed by the Oireachtas, to carry out a reasonable investigation of claims, it is understandably difficult to eliminate all abuses without delaying unduly the determination of genuine claims and increasing administration costs to an unjustifiable extent.

From time to time, Deputies and others complain of the complexity of social welfare Acts and regulations. I admit that complexities exist, but it would be simply impossible to provide social welfare benefits without a very detailed and precise set of conditions governing eligibility for each particular benefit. I am sure that Deputies would be the first to complain if undue discretion were allowed to me, as Minister for Social Welfare, or to officers of my Department, in determining claims. Thus, when the Oireachtas enacts a provision that, for example, a person must have 156 paid contributions to be eligible for a particular benefit, there is little sense in criticising my Department when a person with less than this number of contributions has his claim disallowed.

I know the individual citizen often finds difficulty in understanding the various conditions for benefits. We do our best to provide the required information. We have an Information Section in the headquarters of the Department which handles correspondence of a general nature and deals with a very large volume of telephone inquiries. In Dublin city we have a public office at Beresford Place, and early this year we provided another such office at Phibsboro Tower which is intended to deal with personal callers from that area. Leaflets giving detailed information on the various services are available at employment exchanges and employment offices throughout the country. In addition, there is the very useful booklet Summary of Social Insurance and Assistance Services which is revised annually. This booklet, of which 45,000 copies were ordered on the latest reprint, is distributed free of charge to Deputies, Senators, local authorities, trade unions and others on a mailing list. It is issued also to any individual inquirer and is available for consultation at employment exchanges, employment offices and post offices. I know that some Deputies, at least, make good use of this booklet as they have praised it more than once in this House. Might I suggest that other Deputies should study it and I have no doubt that it will help them in dealing with inquiries from their constituents.

I do not think it is necessary for me to speak at greater length at this stage. I am, of course, ready to give Deputies any further information they may require in respect of particular services as far as it is possible for me to do so.

I move:

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.

At the outset I might say that the Minister's statement can be described only as a monotonous recital of what he had last year and which we have had on a few occasions since then. Indeed, each year we are promised greater benefits in respect of social welfare.

I am disappointed with the statement in so far as it holds out no hope for the less well off sections of our community between now and the next Social Welfare Bill, whoever might introduce that Bill. As I said during the passage of the Social Welfare Bill in July last, increased benefits granted to social welfare recipients in the Budget have been eroded completely. This has been due to the increased cost of living since then. It is also true that every miserable increase given in social welfare since 1957 has been swallowed up by rising prices. In too many cases, and certainly at present, recipients were less well off after the increases.

It is only right to put on record the experience of a social welfare recipient who visited my office last Saturday. She got about 40p of an increase in the last Budget but she detailed to me how that increase had been already over spent and she was only talking about the necessaries of life, food, drink, clothing and rent. The Minister must admit that the increases given in the last Budget fall very far short of what is needed in those days of spiralling cost of living. It is a pity that when the Minister for Finance last week told the House that the economy was now improving to such an extent that he could find £20 million quite easily to give benefits here and there, the Minister for Social Welfare could not tell him, as all rural and city Deputies know, that the less privileged people in our society are far from being reasonably well looked after. They must still pinch and scrape as they have always been doing, unfortunately, to make ends meet and the increase they got in the Budget is completely eroded leaving them much worse off. I have already this year asked the Minister to have a careful and comprehensive review made of our social welfare code. From what he has said just now it appears that little is being done by him or the Government to take serious cognisance of the fact that this is vitally necessary.

Also lacking from the Minister's statement is any reference to the EEC or his visits to Brussels to look after the social welfare side of government business here. I think the Minister went to Brussels recently but if I am correct he went as Minister for Labour and not as Minister for Social Welfare. It is unfortunate that our Minister for Social Welfare, in view of the fact that we are an applicant for EEC membership, has not gone to Brussels many times to find out what is being done in regard to social welfare there. One of the fundamental aims of the founders of the EEC was the constant improvement of the living and working conditions of their people and to provide in the social field for all sections of society a fair share in the steadily rising prosperity. No doubt those are lofty aims but they are aims to which we should all aspire. Have the Government given any serious consideration to or made any serious examination of how this country will fit in with social welfare conditions in the EEC when we join or whether we should take example from the present EEC countries? From reading their reports it is clear that social welfare conditions there are vastly improved for those depending on that kind of income.

The Minister stands condemned because even in the White Paper on the EEC there were only a few pages devoted to social welfare and of those four pages, it is significant that 2½ were devoted to equal pay for men and women. That is not good enough in those days when the Government are indicating—and we on this side of the House agree with them to some extent—that in the European Economic Community social welfare recipients will be, and should be, better off. We have a duty to those who may lose their jobs when we join the EEC; we must see they are retrained and fitted to get new jobs. I have heard or read very little of any worthwhile attempt at appraisal of the situation which must now be very nearly upon us. Those are the things about which the Minister should be talking to us and he should give us his views and those of the Government when he makes his annual statement on social welfare here. His statement was singularly lacking in any reference to those very important matters.

Later in his statement he mentioned wage-related contributions. Since I became spokesman for this party on social welfare I have all the time advocated that the Government should take a serious look at the good that might accrue generally if we had wage-related contributions and wage-related benefits. I think we should find that those conditions already exist in the EEC countries to the benefit of all concerned. Employers in the Community contribute a higher proportion to the cost of social security for their employees. I might say to the Labour Party when we talk of joining or not joining the EEC, that while there may be some disadvantages for the people to whom I now refer it is also evident from reading reports of the European Social Welfare Fund and seeing how it is administered, that there are better opportunities, better living conditions and a much better appreciation of the hardships these people must endure in the EEC countries than here or in Britain.

Is it not true to say that children's allowances, in which we have been clamouring for increases on this side of the House for years past, are much higher in any of the European countries than in Britain or Ireland? It is high time serious consideration was given by the Minister and the Government to tackling this problem in a serious way. Everybody knows the State cannot provide lavishly for everybody when funds are limited but what we expect the Government to do is to redistribute the country's wealth more equitably. It is no over-statement to say that there are many people in our country in November, 1971 who are living on the breadline and many who are pinching and scraping to make ends meet and, as costs continue to spiral upwards, their problem becomes more difficult and almost impossible of solution. This is a tragedy in this day and age. That is why I expect the Minister and the Government to give serious consideration to this matter and to stop this business of giving those people an increase of a few shillings in one Budget or another. Unfortunately we have too much of a stop-go policy being operated by the Government. They have no real forward-looking policy or aims to be achieved in two or three years time.

I believe—and I am sorry the Minister did not refer to this—that there is a great need for what could be described as professional social workers. As the problems of our times become more complex that need becomes more intense. People who are doing this work, and they are altogether too few, are giving a very valuable service. I do not want to denigrate the very valuable contribution made by charitable organisations and religious orders in the field of voluntary social effort. In fact, I want to put on record my appreciation, and that of my party, of the invaluable work they have been doing and are doing. As I already said, these problems are so complex that professional, trained social workers are a must. It is all right to say that doctors and nurses can cure physical and mental illnesses, but we are left with people coming home from hospital who have to face problems relating to housing, company, comfort and things of that nature. The Government should co-operate with these voluntary bodies who are doing such valuable work.

I have said more than once in this House that I believe there is a just case for reducing the qualifying age for an old age pension from 70 to 65 years. While civil servants and others in the public sector can retire at the age of 65 years, there are other sections who worked hard and who have to plod along until they are almost incapacitated before the State sees fit to give them a pension. I say this in all sincerity. If it is the wish of the people that the Minister should be Minister for Social Welfare when the next Social Welfare Bill is introduced, he should seriously consider reducing the qualifying age for a non-contributory old age pension from 70 to 65 years. There is no justification for keeping it at 70 years when so many sectors of the community can retire with good and lavish pensions when they reach the age of 65 years. Most Deputies will agree that in many cases when people reach the age of 70 they are incapacitated to such an extent that they can get little enjoyment out of what the State gives them. For that reason I appeal very sincerely to the Minister to make this change.

I cannot let this occasion pass without again referring to widows' pensions. During Private Members' Time within the past year we gave three hours for a discussion on what I believe to be a very fair, equitable and common-sense motion. I thought from the Minister's reply that he was seriously considering the unanswerable case made in this House. There is nothing in the Minister's statement to cause widows to rejoice. I said previously and I repeat now that the conscience of this country demands that widows should be treated better by society. I also said then, and I repeat, that if there was an awakening of the social conscience, and if our people stopped to think about the conditions in which widows have to live, money would be provided to alleviate some of the hardships they suffer.

Over the past 12 months we have had discussions on the social welfare system. For that reason, and knowing well that the time of the House is badly needed for a discussion on other Estimates, I am prepared to be very fair and brief on this Estimate. Surely it is our right as a community to provide adequate care and protection for deprived and underprivileged members of the community. The Minister said he finds it hard to have patience with those who say nothing has been done for them. I admit that something small has been done for them, but I assert that we have done nothing like what the vast majority of the people who have something to give would like to do for those people if they were sure that what they were contributing was going towards the alleviation of hardship and distress.

There is an immediate need to provide a comprehensive social welfare code. We have been going on for years giving a few shillings to the old age pensioner, the widow, the disabled and the unemployed. This is not just good enough. If we believed we were joining the EEC we should have been setting ourselves the task of examining the conditions relating to insurable employment there and insurable benefits and the retraining of workers for jobs. We have heard practically nothing of what may happen in this field if and when we join the EEC.

I also believe that if this case is put properly to the entire community—and I think it is not being put properly to the entire community; many people who could be regarded as affluent, because of their own environment, their own living conditions and their own social circles do not really understand the hardships and privations their brethren and their next door neighbours have to endure—they will think seriously about it and will provide the necessary money to help their brethren.

It is quite obvious that not enough is being done with regard to the social welfare system. Does the Minister and do Deputies in the Finna Fáil Party realise—and I thought they were near enough to the grassroots to realise this but apparently they do not—that in this day and age so many people are still suffering so badly? It is our duty as Opposition Deputies to point out that hardship cases still exist, to point out that the increases that were given on 26th April last are already completely eroded and that, in fact, social welfare recipients are now far less well off than they were 12 months ago. All those things need to be said. It does not do any of us any good to say them but we have a duty to do so. I hope my case for a comprehensive social welfare code will cause the Minister and the Government to think seriously about it.

The trouble in this country is that the national wealth is still not being justly distributed. We must try to ensure that if there is an increase in the national wealth it will be distributed equitably and find its way to the weaker sections. It is unfortunate that for some years the approach of all Ministers for Social Welfare has been "How little can we give?" rather than "How much?" We still have the poor law approach to those problems. Much remains to be done and I suggest that the social conscience of the Minister and of the Government should be stirred up immediately because there is a feeling abroad that, like all the policies of the Government, social welfare is moving from day to day and from month to month and getting graduually worse. It is a pity this question is not approached in relation to what will be happening in next year's budget. There is a great case to be made for a social welfare policy that will plan and direct its efforts not only for next year but for four or five years hence.

I am very sorry for the people for whom I have spoken particularly for the widow pensioners in regard to whom I thought there would be something in the Minister's statement but while I am sorry for all those people I appreciate the Minister's position. The Minister for Finance possibly has more to do with it than he has. I appeal to the Minister to keep prodding the Minister for Finance. It is his job to do so. The people for whom he is legislating are not at all happy with the position. It may well be that the present Minister for Social Welfare will not be there to introduce the next Estimate. It may well be the job of another Minister to do it. Possibly there will be a change of Government. If and when there is, and I think there will be shortly, it will be the task of the new Minister for Social Welfare to tackle this whole problem in a comprehensive way, to realise the opportunities that people in the EEC countries have and that we have not got here, to realise even the opportunities that the people in the Six Countries have that we have not got here. Perhaps having considered all those things, there will be a step towards making a better 32-county Ireland and making us a better member of the EEC.

The Minister for Social Welfare is also Minister for Labour. His duties are spread over a vast field. I consider this wrong. I would be inclined to think that we should have a Minister for Social Welfare who would also be Minister for Health because health and social welfare are so interlocked. They cross each other so often that it would be more appropriate for a Minister for Health to take over the duties of the Department of Social Welfare. In the new government, which is certainly on the way, I think one of the first steps should be to have health and social welfare embodied in one Department.

We are finding that social welfare is not taking the place in our lives that it should be taking. Social Welfare is a very complex Department. I will admit that. However, the service to the people is far from adequate. This is a criticism of the Department. We all know how bad this Department is. It has been highlighted in the national newspapers. The expert in the Evening Press, Mr. Tony Butler, has done more than anybody, to my way of thinking, to highlight the defects in this Department and to try to rectify them. He has sent telegrams to the Secretary of the Department. He has demanded action, action which came finally with his intervention. This is an interesting point. People feel that they cannot have their problems solved without going to a person like this. He has been able to get prompt action because he demands it. The ordinary person in the street, the person most affected is the person least capable of putting his case, of explaining his problem. Can anything be more frustrating to a poor person who is on social welfare benefit than not to receive his cheque on Friday morning and to be left without money for the week-end and to go down on Monday and be told: “We did not receive the certificate”? In all good faith that person posted the certificate and something went wrong in the Department.

This should be a dynamic Department geared to meeting people's problems. The people who are meeting the public should be sympathetic and know the problems of the public. I know that dealing with the public can be a frustrating task but I should like to see trained people in the public office of the Department of Social Welfare who are sympathetic, not people who say: "Sorry, we did not get it" and chase a person away or: "Go over to the employment exchange" as they are often told "and get your number there". People have to walk from Store Street across to Werburgh Street when a streamlined method could be evolved within the Department which would make this unnecessary. It should be orientated towards helping the poor person, not making his life much more difficult. This is the attitude of this Department. The Department, despite all the claims, still, to my way of thinking, works at 45 per cent efficiency. That is no exaggeration. That is the first thing I should like to see. I would want to see very vast changes in that Department at all levels to ensure that the public are well protected and helped in every way possible. The people who cannot articulate their problems are the very people who need help. The whole attitude must be one of sympathy towards these people. Health and social welfare are interlinked so much that they must go together. The Department of Social Welfare needs to be streamlined in the interests of the public.

I put down a question yesterday about social services in Northern Ireland which to my way of thinking was a very vital question. Whether the Government realises it or not re-unification has become an irreversible thing. It will happen in the foreseeable future and we should be thinking about what we can do to put our social services on a par with those which exist in Northern Ireland. The Department of Social Welfare should be studying the problem to see how we can say to the people in Northern Ireland that our social services are as good as, if not better than, theirs. We should be spelling out the cost of providing such services. It is no use saying, as the Minister said yesterday: "I have a rough estimate". In the course of his reply the Minister said that if we wanted to know details about specific services in Northern Ireland they could be had by writing for a copy of the publication Everybody's Guide to Social Security in Northern Ireland published by the Six County Ministry of Health and Social Insurance. It is an insult for a Minister to give a reply like that. We must know where we fall below the social services given in Northern Ireland. The Minister says it would cost in the region of £50 million. We should see how this could be spread out and what extra contributions would be involved. A section of the Department of Social Welfare should be devoted exclusively to the study of benefits in the North of Ireland and in the EEC. When refugees came down from the North how active were the Department of Social Welfare in dealing with their problems? I was dealing with refugees and I know exactly where the Department of Social Welfare fell down on the job.

It is not good enough for the Minister to come into the House and say that the situation in the EEC countries is different and it is impossible, therefore, to make a comparison.

The Minister was asked yesterday how our social services compared with the EEC countries and a reply in relation to each and every member country of the EEC should have been given. If there is a disparity it should be spelled out because if we are going into the EEC we have to be geared to the EEC conditions and in this respect there is no more important sphere than social welfare.

We all know there will be mass emigration and it is important for those workers who will become redundant here and go to the EEC countries to find work to know exactly what benefits they will get. It would not augur well for this country if our workers went abroad and found social welfare benefits in other countries so high that they would not return. It is not good enough for the Department to say that statistics are available in books. The Department should have all the information available.

I, for one, would like to know exactly what children's allowances are in the EEC, how their system operates, if it is different from ours and if it is working more to the advantage of the individual than our system. If other countries have a better system, we should follow their example and apply a system which is fairer and more equitable for the individual.

The Minister referred to the Third Programme for Economic Expansion and everything he said in his speech today was stated in the Third Programme for Economic Expansion, 1969-72. The Third Programme is due to expire shortly and I presume we shall have a fourth one. The Third Programme states what it is hoped to achieve within the period 1969-72. In the field of social welfare it was hoped within that period to have pay related social welfare contributions and a new system of unemployment assistance but nothing has been done in either the sphere of pay related to contributions or social assistance. The Minister said:

... my Department has been working on the preparation of a scheme of pay-related disability and unemployment benefit as promised in the Third Programme of Economic and Social Development.

I would like to know what the result of this is and when is it going to be incorporated into legislation. This is another clear indication that the Department are not doing their job.

According to my way of thinking he Minister for Social Welfare stands indicted for not doing his job as Minister for Social Welfare. However, I can understand this because the Minister has not done his job in the Department of Labour either. We had strike after strike after strike and still he did not intervene so that certainly did not take up his time. I wonder what did take up his time? I have great personal regard for the Minister but I must talk in terms of a Minister for Social Welfare who has control over a Department. He should ensure that his Department produces the results outlined and promised in the Third Programme for Economic and Social Development. In February, 1969, a wide-ranging review of our existing services, including home assistance, was mentioned. That was three years ago but nothing has been done. What is happening in the Department? Do we not have the experts? If not, why not? It is too important a subject to gloss over by saying that we are studying it. We are currently engaged in a wide-ranging review but we have not got the personnel. We must have personnel engaged in vital studies such as these because they concern the welfare of our people.

Does anybody know the degrading aspect of the means test employed in regard to home assistance, unemployment assistance, non-contributory pensions, whether widows or old age pensions? We had the débâcle of the dole when the Minister's colleague, the Minister for Finance, came across two cases in his constituency of people who were illegally drawing the dole. He rushed in and wanted the dole removed from all those deserving people in the country who cannot get employment. The Minister for Finance made a scapegoat out of the Minister for Social Welfare.

In this city we find a man who is out of unemployment benefit who then must go on unemployment assistance and the means test is employed in his case. He might be a man of 21 or 22 years of age who is living at home because he could live nowhere else except in a dosshouse, the Iveagh Hostel or some other place like that, where you can get bed and breakfast on this £3 a week which is given to those unemployed people. This man, because he lives at home, finds that the total income of the family is taken into account and that he may get as little as 25p a week unemployment assistance. If he moves out of his home he cannot live because I defy the Minister to tell me where anyone in Dublin could pay for a room and live on £3 a week. If the Minister can tell me where there is such a place I will publicly stand up and apologise to him. There is no place in Dublin where a person can get a room and two meals a day for £3 a week. A furnished room alone costs £7 a week.

The unemployment assistance allowance is so small that this man is forced to live at home and because the means test is employed he only gets as little as 25p a week and is then considered a pauper in his own home. He cannot get a job. I write as many as 50 letters a day to firms looking for jobs for young men like this man and it is virtually impossible to obtain them. It is made clear to those young men that they are living on charity in their own homes.

The wonderful social welfare system we have in this country gives this pittance to unemployed people whose unemployment benefit runs out or to people whose employers refuse to stamp their cards. The Minister has admitted here on many occasions that this is prevalent. Those are the people who are being victimised by this means test in regard to unemployment assistance.

You literally are a pauper when you look for home assistance. You are interviewed by people who are not trained as home assistance officers. You may get a voucher for food. You lose all dignity, you are humiliated. This home assistance, which is not adequate, is also provided while people are awaiting decisions on their pensions, such as widows and old age pensioners. People who come home from England while they are waiting for their cases to be verified by the British authorities get this paltry home assistance to meet present day spiralling costs. When they get their benefit they find the home assistance is taken out of the money they receive and is refunded to the home assistance people. We find that a greater number need home assistance so we should have people specially trained in the field of sociology who will be able to know their problems, who will appreciate the delicacy of this matter, who will appreciate the confidentiality of this matter and who will be sympathetic with those people, see what they can do and not have people going to home assistance officers and in so many cases finding themselves abused. We are not asking for vast sums of money to be spent. We are only asking for a proper approach to this problem to see what can be done about those people in receipt of home assistance.

We ask for flexibility in the deserted wife's allowance scheme. This was promised by the Minister for Social Welfare a short while ago. If this scheme is flexible can you imagine the case of a woman who went through a registered marriage with a man, who has three children by that marriage and who finds when she goes to his home in Africa he is already married? This woman is destitute with those three children but she finds that the deserted wife's allowance does not apply to her. She is told that she can be given nothing. Can you call this scheme flexible? This woman, through no fault of her own, was bigamously married, but is not given the deserted wife's allowance. We were heartened to hear from the Minister that he would make this scheme flexible. How can we call it flexible when it treats this woman in this way?

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present.
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