asked the Minister for Justice what organisations have, under the Offences Against the State Acts, 1939 and 1940, been declared to be unlawful organisations which ought in the public interest to be suppressed; and the date or dates of the making of the relevant order or orders.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Unlawful Organisations.
12.
As the Deputy is aware, statutory instruments are published documents and are part of the law of the land. In effect, therefore, this Question asks me for a statement of the law. This is outside the scope of my official functions and, while on this occasion I shall be glad to supply the information privately to the Deputy as a matter of courtesy to him if he is interested, I could not agree to set a precedent for doing so at Question Time. Perhaps I should also say at this point that the same principle applies in relation to Question No. 59 on yesterday's Order Paper which the Deputy had put down for written answer.
Surely the Minister is aware that certain organisations have been suppressed and that at the same time those organisations are strutting the streets of this country with impunity, that they are drilling, that they are terrorising, that they are threatening and intimidating people, that they are robbing banks, that they are bombing, that they are trying to tear down the institutions of this State. Why are the Minister and the Government standing idly by, turning a blind eye, as Mr. Blaney stated in his speech in Arklow——
The Deputy may not make a speech on this.
Why are the Government not taking action? Why are they turning a blind eye?
That is a separate question.
We have heard that particular supplementary on many occasions. All I can say in general, with regard to Deputy L'Estrange's allegations of this nature, is that if he has any information of the kind that he alleges he has why does he not go to the police with that information and enable them to take prosecutions if appropriate?
As far as I am concerned I do my duty. I shall never be found threatening a policeman that if he does his duty, I will have him sacked.
This has nothing to do with the question. The Deputy is abusing the privilege of the House.
Surely the Minister is aware——
We have heard this speech so many times; it cannot be in order each time the Deputy stands up.
Surely it is in order to deal with illegal organisations. It is time this sank in and the Minister did something about it. Is the Minister afraid——
(Interruptions.)
Can I take it from the Minister that while he is not prepared to supply a list of alleged unlawful organisations he is prepared to supply this list privately to Deputy Ryan?
As a matter of courtesy. The principle I am seeking to establish as I pointed out in the reply is that it is not part of my official functions either to state the law or to give legal advice and I feel myself precluded from doing that. I do not want to show discourtesy to Deputy Ryan or to any other Deputy who, bona fide, seeks information and for that reason I am prepared to give it to him privately. In the past few months and indeed before the summer recess I prefaced my replies to a number of questions by saying I was replying on this point as a matter of courtesy to the Deputy without prejudice to the principle involved. I do not have official responsibility for the information sought.
As a professional man the Minister cannot give free legal advice.
Would the Minister accept that it is not at all in the public interest that a Minister, particularly the Minister for Justice, should give private information in reply to questions referring to illegal organisations to a Member of this House which cannot be put on the records?
It is not a question of not putting it on the records. The point I am making is that this information is there as part of the published law of the country. It is only a question of looking up the appropriate statutory instrument. That has nothing to do with the organisations or the Acts referred to in the question but as a matter of principle I cannot, as Minister for Justice, come in here and give legal advice, which is what it amounts to as to what the law is on particular topics. If I am to use my office to do that the Incorporated Law Society and the Bar Council could legitimately complain. If I am to purport to state authoritatively what the law is in this House I feel I should do the same in respect of every citizen.
As far as I could gather the Minister said he would give Deputy Ryan a list of these organisations, is that correct?
Privately, without prejudice, as a matter of courtesy to him.
Is Deputy Ryan bound to secrecy?
No.
Could he read out this list in the Dáil?
He can read it out now because if he looks up the law he can ascertain what the particular organisations are without asking the question at all.
(Interruptions.)
Would it be possible as a matter of courtesy for me to have a copy of the list of these organisations?
Yes.
Am I free to publish it?
Of course.