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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 16 Nov 1971

Vol. 256 No. 11

Imposition of Duties (Confirmation of Orders) Bill, 1971: Second Stage.

I move "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

An explanatory memorandum has been circulated for the information of Deputies.

The purpose of this Bill is to confirm five orders made during 1970, under the Imposition of Duties Act, 1957, and the Finance Act, 1962. It is a statutory requirement that such orders must be confirmed not later than the end of the calendar year following that in which they are made, if they are not to cease to have statutory effect.

The first of these Orders, No. 184, was made by the Government on the recommendation of the Minister for Finance. It provided for an increase in the excise duty on Irish wines and a reduction in the customs duty on still wines in bottle of United Kingdom origin. The effect of this was to make a fifth 10 per cent reduction in the protective differential between the customs duties on wines of United Kingdom origin and the excise duty on Irish wines, in accordance with the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement.

The second Order, No. 185, was also made by the Government on the recommendation of the Minister for Finance. It provided for the fifth tariff reduction on goods of United Kingdom origin in accordance with the terms of the free trade area agreement. In addition, the order provided for the maintenance of the special tariff concessions in favour of certain goods of Northern Ireland origin. The order also provided for the reduction of duties on certain yarns and certain knitted or crocheted fabrics in accordance with recommendations made by the committee on de-pyramiding of tariff protection, and made a number of minor changes in the customs tariff. The new rates of duty brought into effect by this order are, of course, those which appear in the standard "Customs and Excise Tariff of Ireland" with which Deputies are familiar.

The third Order, No. 186, provided for the imposition of a customs duty at rates of 40 per cent (full, preferential and special preferential) and 13.3 per cent (United Kingdom) on certain mobile home type caravans which inadvertently incurred a loss of protection as a result of the changeover to the Brussels Nomenclature form of customs tariff.

The fourth Order, No. 187, was made by the Government on the recommendation of the Minister for Finance. The order was necessary because of the changeover to decimal currency on 15th February, 1971, and it provides for the conversion to decimal form of all references to £sd amounts in the tariff.

The fifth Order, No. 188, provided for a reduction of 10 per cent in the ad valorem rate of duty and certain reductions in the specific rates of duty on watches of non-United Kingdom origin, with effect from 1st January, 1971. The Swiss watch industry has made representations about the high rate of duty on their products and it was decided to grant these reductions in duty. In deciding to grant this concession, the Government took into consideration the considerable contribution which the Swiss watch industry had made to the establishment of the Swiss/Irish Horological Institute in Ireland and that the Swiss propose to continue to make a substantial financial contribution to the institute, which trains workers for the watch industry. The Irish watch assemblers were consulted and they did not oppose the granting of the concession. Because of our international obligations the reduction of the duty had to be extended to watches of other countries.

I shall be glad to give any further information required in connection with the Bill.

For the purpose of our discussion here I think it is fair to say that the matters referred to as the third and fourth orders by the Minister, namely, a correction because of a change in the nomenclature in Brussels and the changing over to decimal currency provision could be ignored. It is not worthwhile discussing those two orders inasmuch as they are mechanical things which had to be done.

The other orders should certainly be discussed and should be the subject of some consideration by this House. The gravamen of this Bill is that we have the fifth reduction of protective tariffs in line with the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement. I do not want to weary the House by repeating ad nauseam what I said the other day, although it is in order on this particular measure, but the point must be made that there has been in certain instances some hardship and loss of employment because of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement and the reduction in tariffs.

There is provision in section 19 of that agreement for unilateral action and for bilateral action in section 2, subsection (5). There is also the question of the year of review—I referred to this the other day—which ended in July last. These safety clauses were, in fact, included to enable a much weaker nation, industrially, to defend itself, as I see it, from what could be, with the gradual reduction of tariffs, a temporary attack which could be extremely dangerous for our employment here.

It seems to me as if the Government are predisposed to automatically reduce these tariffs without considering at all the areas of damage and the areas of difficulty. The Minister in his opening speech on the Estimate for his Department last Thursday in Volume 256, No. 10 of the Official Report made very strong play of the fact that the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement had not affected trade here and that the increase in redundancies here had not been a very serious factor. He said at column 1833:

I will not deny that the freeing of trade has been a factor in some of these closures but it is only one of the factors involved.

Later on in that column he said:

Other factors leading to redundancies have been product obsolescence; difficulties in external markets (a number of well publicised cases of closure earlier this year involved firms which were selling entirely in export markets); market depression externally and at home (this has affected the textile industry in particular); cost inflation; and management difficulties highlighted by more demanding trading conditions and by the incidence of free trade.

In that column we get two references to the incidence of free trade. Today we are debating what the Minister referred to as the second of these orders, the fifth reduction in the freeing of trade under the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement. I suggest that the Government are at fault in not taking advantage of the clauses in that agreement to produce here an Imposition of Duties (Confirmation of Orders) Bill, 1971 which would contain lesser reductions or no reductions in tariff in respect of certain items. I assert that it is possible to do this even unilaterally for a period of 18 months under the agreement. It is the duty of the Government to see to it that redundancies are obviated or are avoided if at all possible. If the Minister admits in his speech that in certain sectors there was some effect from the freeing of trade then it would appear to me that the rather global nature of what the Minister referred to here as the third order is in my view not a correct procedure and that there should have been a lessening of the degree of reduction.

The Minister last week referred to the position in the textile industry. At column 1834, volume 256, No. 10 of the Official Report of the 11th November, 1971, he said:

Wool textiles as an industry is notoriously subject to cyclical depressions and short-time working but, up to 1970, the industry in Ireland had, for more than a decade, been largely free of this difficulty. However, the industry, world-wide, has recently been subjected to what is stated to be the worst depression for 40 years and this has affected most of the Irish mills in varying degrees. The continuously growing competition from materials made from synthetic fibres and from materials made from processes other than weaving, does not help the situation.

On top of this, there is the fact that excess capacity exists in this industry and, so far, efforts to induce the industry to rationalise its production have not succeeded. One obstacle is the likelihood that no such rationalisation could be achieved without the closure of some mills. Unpalatable though this may be in particular cases, I am afraid that it must be faced. If not, there is a danger that mills, which might otherwise be viable, would be forced out of business along with weaker and less efficient units.

These quotations direct from the Minister's speech last week indicate to me that in one sector of industry at any rate there is need for very kindly treatment. There is provision in the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement for the lessening in the degree of tariff reduction. This in my view should have been done and it is a fault in this Bill that it was not done.

In order to defend the jobs that are at risk, even the short breathing period under unilateral action could have been availed of. Perhaps even the changing of jobs completely and the creation in an area of a new industry to supplant one that was going to go to the wall would have meant the difference between misery, unemployment and a continuance of a fair life for many Irish families.

My main criticism of the Government is because of their global and wholesale approach to all these agreements and I bring to that criticism the personal knowledge I have of the manner in which continentals have acted in relation to the Rome Treaty. The continentals read, as it were, the small print and have recourse to the very last action that can be taken to defend their jobs. They are utterly unashamed about this. They could not care less whether they appear before the Court of Justice in Brussels or before any other international body, so long as they keep their people working, even for a temporary period, while they rearrange their own economies and their own budgets. They do their utmost to provide jobs to replace the jobs that will be lost and they make every use they can of that far more complicated agreement than we do of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement.

I accept that this Bill is necessary. I accept that free trade must come. Britain has decided by a large majority in the House of Commons to go into Europe. From the economic point of view we must enter into free trade. We are a very small trading entity whose maximum exports of any product, with the possible exception of beef, will have no impact on the huge trading block into which we will probably enter fairly soon. Most of our products will have very little effect. In that position of weakness it is our Government's duty, as I said last week, to nurture the weaker among us. As the Minister said, there is a danger that mills, which might otherwise be viable, would be forced out of business along with the weaker and less efficient ones. I have gone to considerable trouble, expense and effort to equip myself with all the knowledge I possibly could about the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement and the workings of the Common Market institutions and this is not the way in which smaller countries in the Common Market approach these problems; the smaller the country the harder they bargain. An té nach bhfuil láidir ní folair dó bheith glic—those that are not strong must of necessity be clever —and that is the way these small countries approach their problems.

This Bill should have had provision in it for individual industries where tariffs are concerned. That can be done under the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement. I know that it can be done and so does the Minister and his officials. It should be done. I suggest we should make every effort to defend every job. My hope is that the Minister will take heed of my words and the words of other Members of this House and, when the review takes place, I hope we will see a lessening of the tempo in tariff reductions in certain sensitive areas. In this instance the Minister will be dealing with just one partner. In Brussels he will be dealing with nine, and that at a time of very serious change. He will have to take individual action to protect individual industries. Everybody in this House must accept that we are going into Europe. There will have to be time to enable our people to take their place in a free trade situation and to fit themselves to meet the competition which will be there even while the removal of tariffs is proceeding.

There is no individual provision in this Bill to safeguard individual industries. It is just a readymade, reach-me-down, blunt instrument. It could have been something far more selective.

I asked last week why the Government have not had a review of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement, an agreement which so far has worked in favour of Britain and not in our favour. It may be argued that in the last two years there has been an improvement but in the first two years of its operation the balance from our point of view was most unfavourable. One would have thought that the Government would have sought, perhaps, postponement of the reductions in tariff because of the adverse effects it is having on Irish industry. I should like the Minister to say a few words on that.

I see that Order No. 185 provided for the maintenance of the special tariff concessions in favour of certain goods of Northern Ireland origin. I should like, if at all possible, that we should extend this concession. If we are to make any worthwhile contribution towards the Northern Ireland problem, almost eliminating the Border on the industrial front, I should like tariff concessions extended in favour of Northern Ireland goods. The balance of trade with Northern Ireland at present is very much in favour of the Twenty-six Counties. By extending these special tariff concessions we could, perhaps, bring the people in the North closer to us.

The Minister might tell us also in what direction the present discussions between officers of his Department and officers of the corresponding department in Northern Ireland are going. In the midst of all this trouble in the North we are apt to forget that it was agreed that there should be discussions between the two Departments on how they could co-operate more. We have heard nothing about it since. I should like to hear what has happened about these discussions? Have they continued? Or have they ceased altogether in the present unhappy situation in Northern Ireland?

Another point which is a source of worry to me is this. The Swiss watch industry have made representations about the high rate of duty on their products and it has been decided to grant reductions in duty. I should like the Minister in replying to say how we stand with Switzerland at present. The Minister says that the Government took into consideration the considerable contribution which the Swiss watch industry had made to the establishment of the Swiss-Irish Horological Institute and that the Swiss proposed to continue to make a substantial financial contribution to the institute. Could the Minister elaborate on this and tell the House how much money the Swiss Government have contributed? What is involved? Will he also say what will be the effect of reducing the tariff on Swiss watches and what it would amount to if there is a similar reduction on watches of other countries?

He mentions that the Horological Institute trains workers for the watch industry. This also calls for elaboration. The Minister should tell us the number of workers engaged in the watch industry in this country, in assembly and so on. We should know the consequences of reducing the tariff as against the benefits. I do not, and I am sure many Members of the House do not, know much about this industry and it would be of great interest if the Minister answered these questions. What will be the loss to the Exchequer and what do we receive in return by way of financial contribution from Switzerland and how many workers are employed in the Irish watch assembly industry? The Minister said the Irish watch assemblers were consulted and did not oppose the granting of the concession. Does the Minister mean the manufacturers or the workers when he says they were consulted? I should also like to know the present state of our balance of trade with Britain under the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement and if a recent review has taken place or is proposed. We should also be given details of negotiations which were to have taken place between the Minister's Department and their counterparts in Northern Ireland.

There has been a great deal of secret behaviour by the Government behind closed doors in the summer period about the further reduction in tariffs under the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement. In this party we were consistent and our attitude towards that agreement has been vindicated up to the hilt, and never more so than this year with the massive redundancies caused. Whenever a Minister speaks about unemployment, he says of course that it is not due to the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement. That is the very first thing they mention.

Of course, this is quite false because the major part of our redundancies have been brought about by the final reduction in tariffs. What redundancy will be like eventually, when tariffs are obliterated, remains to be seen. We are only at the halfway stage now. There was to be a major inquiry as to what would happen then under the agreement. No such proper inquiry was held because the Government were busy at their usual game of diverting the attention of everybody from this major current problem to whether we were going into EEC—something not at all realistic because EEC is still in the far distant future, regardless of what the Government say, just as it is in the distant future for Britain also.

The least the Government should have done at this crucial moment in the working of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement, when tariffs have reached halfway between their highest point and nothing, was to offer a full report instead of nonsensical rubbish, particularly their most recent document about employment if we join EEC. So stupid are the people who wrote that document that within a few pages in the one document they said on the one hand that there would be massive increases in employment for industrial workers and on the other hand they said there would be no danger of losing any employment through industrial products coming in from the Continent. Whoever wrote it, it was a stupid production. They did not even realise they were cutting the throat of their own argument inside one page.

This kind of game can go on all over the place, including the pretence that the Government would reduce inflation this year. We heard so much about that in the Budget including a remark from a simple country Deputy that there was a cutback. The only cutback that took place this year was in tariffs and that occurred on 1st July and it was done in complete secrecy so far as the Government could manage it.

We get this kind of thing: "... the fifth reduction of protective duties and the protective element in revenue duties on certain goods of United Kingdom origin in accordance with the Agreement between the Government of Ireland and the Government of the United Kingdom establishing a Free Trade area ... maintenance of the import duty preference in favour of certain goods of Northern Ireland origin..." I have nothing against this. On the contrary, I am all in favour of this concession. It goes on: "...reduction of duty on certain yarns and certain knitted or crocheted garments in accordance with the recommendation made by the Committee on De-Pyramiding of Tariff Protection..." That is an original one. I never saw that word before. I could understand talk of pyramiding.

It is not as good as Deputy Haughey's "excessive quantification".

These two words are all right but "de-pyramiding" is quite original. It would take the Department of Industry and Commerce to produce that.

I found it in files for 1956.

The year 1956, bad though it was, left the economy of this country in a much sounder position than this year will leave it next year.

When we take over.

It will be in a right mess then, I agree.

We are worried about what we will inherit.

The Minister talks about de-pyramiding of tariff protection, certain minor changes in the customs tariff. I am no great supporter of excessive tariffs but I remember the care with which the Department of Industry and Commerce used to keep what is called the "water" in the tariffs. This was to be squeezed out when negotiations came up about reductions in tariffs. Of course, the British civil servants are not fools and when these negotiations started they said: "This is just ‘water'. We will not give you anything except ‘water' in exchange for ‘water'." That is what they gave us.

Mr. Wilson's memoirs in relation to the signing of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement are interesting. They had to give the Irish more drink or they would not sign. Did the Deputy see that?

I did not read that.

That is a terrible reflection on the Irish negotiators.

The Deputy has made a contribution. He might allow his colleague to speak.

I am always glad of assistance from Deputy Dr. O'Connell. I see in the Minister's speech the phrase: "Reduction of duties on certain yarns and certain knitted or crocheted fabrics." We have heard from the Government time and again that the awful condition of our textile industry is not due to the signing of the Anglo-Irish Free trade Area Agreement, that it is all due to a decline in world trade. Of course it is due to the signing of the agreement. The great bulk of the redundancies this year have been brought about almost entirely by this agreement. It is a nice introduction to our going into the Common Market. There is an old saying. "To the people is given judgment." The people will judge all right. They will not be led blindfold into the Common Market as easy as the Government think they will, in spite of the huge expenditure by the Government on propaganda. The reason they will not be led blindfold into the Common Market is in this Bill. It is stated here.

It is the effect of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement. I am delighted this has happened because it has given the people fair warning. This party alone could never have got it across to the people, but this party does not have to say anything any longer. The people know it now. We had a performance last night on television about tariffs with the Minister for Finance arguing about 10,000 new jobs this year. Ten thousand new jobs and 20,000 people gone out of employment so we are left with 10,000 fewer people employed. I was glad that the Labour representative in that discussion stuck to his point. Anybody can "create" employment by spending massive amounts of money. One way is by building factories. Employment is created while they are being built.

"Potential" is a great word with them.

Yes, they say there will be 30 people employed this year and in three years time there will be 500. This Bill and Bills like it, and we will have more and more of them, show us what this non-Government are doing to the economy. One can borrow abroad, one can borrow at home and one can "create" employment while one is pushing out this slush money, but one is not creating any sound foundation for the economy by these actions. In fact, one is destroying the basis of the currency and will end up with massive inflation. We have been told during the summer that they have done this and that about inflation and we have been told to watch it blow over on the turn of the year. The people can be codded for a short period, especially with the change in currency, but they will only put up with that for a limited time. Everybody now knows the meaning of inflation and everybody knows how to guard himself against inflation.

This has nothing at all to do with the Bill which deals with certain orders.

If there is more unemployment owing to this order surely it will give rise to massive inflation, especially with the Government spending more and more money.

There is a reference here to the imposition of customs duty on certain structures of the mobile home type. That was something we all agreed with because firms have been set up to build these mobile homes.

When I think of the method of introducing these Bills to confirm certain orders and of the manner in which we used to talk about reducing tariffs— nobody more than the Fianna Fáil Party—saying that the era of free trade was upon us and more and more orders were made imposing new tariffs. The more they talked about getting rid of the tariffs the more they imposed until this Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement was made. The whole effect of that agreement was that the British sold the Government a pup. The Government sold out this country for short-term advantage. There is the same thing in the Common Market. We have five years. Five years in this context is five minutes. It is absurd. I am delighted this has happened because we in this party do not have to spell out anything to the Irish people about the effects of going into a big economy and having no tariffs. The argument is advanced that we will have more opportunities to sell our goods, as if the other fellows would not engulf us with their goods. Of course they will. This Bill has come up at a very suitable moment because I suspect that one of these days we will have the big putsch by the Government in the hope of getting the idea of the Common Market across on the basis of the ignorant pamphlets that are being produced by the Department of Foreign Affairs.

One of the things that may have been forgotten in dealing with this Bill is that we are dealing with orders actually made during the calendar year of 1970. Deputy Donegan queried the efficacy of the talks that took place arising out of the review which occurred during the course of the year from 1st July, 1970, to the end of June, 1971. The corresponding Bill which I will need to introduce this time next year, relating to the orders that have been made during the course of 1971, will be quite different from the Bill before us. Order No. 185, which led to the greatest amount of discussion, deals with the reduction of duties in accordance with the terms of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement from the period commencing 1st July, 1970, which is the start of the year of actual review. The outcome of that review, as I explained last week and on other occasions in reply to questions, has not yet been finally determined but it will be discussed on the Imposition of Duties (Confirmation of Orders) Bill, 1972.

It has not been finalised at the end of November?

I am making a statement of fact.

I am adverting to it, and rightly so. Why was it not completed before 1st July?

Because we were not in a position to have it completed by 1st July.

Too much internal trouble?

Deputy O'Donovan is obsessed with the internal troubles of Fianna Fáil.

I am not. This is the first time I have spoken about it in the House.

Any time I am in the House Deputy O'Donovan gets around to talking about something of that nature.

I have never mentioned the trouble in Fianna Fáil.

The Deputy will find it difficult because there is no problem.

The MInister cannot have it both ways.

Last Wednesday night I heard the Deputy telling the Taoiseach that he had never interrupted him when the record showed that he had.

How much had I interrupted him?

I am not going into details but the record shows that the Deputy had interrupted the Taoiseach.

Not nearly as much as I interrupt the Minister.

The Minister is such an affable gentleman he seems to encourage interruptions.

I am glad the Minister reads my speeches.

Deputy Donegan drew specific attention to the statements I made last week when introducing my Estimate. It is a pity Deputy O'Donovan was not in the House when Deputy Donegan was speaking because he would have heard Deputy Donegan accept that a number of redundancies were due to a variety of factors. Both Deputy O'Donovan and Deputy O'Connell attributed every redundancy to the adverse effect of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement. Last week I pinpointed the many reasons for the redundancies. I did not deny that the freeing of trade was a factor in some of the closures but the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement had nothing at all to do with other closures which took place. Deputy O'Donovan, Deputy O'Connell and their colleagues will continue to say that the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement is responsible for all our problems.

We will be quite right.

I do not read many of Deputy O'Donovan's speeches but I have been in the House often enough during the past two or three years to hear him reiterate that Britain and Ireland will never join the EEC. His cry is beginning to ring rather hollow.

Do not boast too much about it.

I am trying to deal with the points made by the Opposition spokesmen. Deputy Donegan and his party accept the fact that we have no option but to join the EEC; on the other hand, Deputy O'Donovan feels there are other options. He accuses Government spokesmen who advise the people to prepare for entry into the EEC of producing a red herring in order to take people's minds off other more pressing subjects. On the one hand we are accused of not informing the people sufficiently about the EEC, and on the other hand we are told by Deputy O'Donovan, when we do inform the people, that we are doing so to distract their thoughts from other matters.

Informing them inaccurately.

I cannot accept that. I do not know whether the Deputy is suggesting that every word uttered in this House contains a bundle of inaccuracies, but I do not accept that is so.

The recent document from the Department of Foreign Affairs had a major logical inaccuracy about industrial employment in the EEC.

I know it is difficult, when talking in November, 1971, about a reduction in duty which took place in July, 1970, not to carry over the discussion into the present time. I want to assure Deputy Donegan that the Government are very conscious of the rights they have under both Articles 19 and 15 of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement. This is tied in with the continuous discussions we have had with the British arising out of the review which took place during the year ending 1st July of this year.

Is it not true that under Article 19 the Government can take steps to stop the reductions in tariffs on a particular item where there are employment troubles without reference to Britain at all?

There is a provision but the Government never invoked it.

I admit it is only for 18 months.

That is the 18 months quota restriction. There is provision under the agreement for quota regulations.

There is much worse to come. We are only half way through the reductions.

We are six steps through the reductions at this stage. I am trying to deal with the logical contribution of Deputy Donegan and I find myself being sidetracked. We have provision in the agreement to take specific steps if the Government so decide and this is a matter which is the subject of discussion at the moment. As the Deputy said, if we are not able to come to agreement arising from our discussions we have unilateral power to take action ourselves.

Britain invoked it a long time ago and we could do nothing about it.

In imposing the deposit system, Britain broke the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement and the Taoiseach said so.

Of course she did and we could do nothing about it

I should prefer to deal with the British than with the Germans or French.

Does the Minister not agree that Britain broke the agreement?

No. We spoke about their breach of the agreement in spirit but not in fact. Deputy O'Connell asked why we did not have a review of the agreement. I spent a considerable time last week dealing with my Estimate and I reiterated that we had a review and that the discussions arising therefrom are still proceeding.

Can the Minister say why the review was not concluded before July?

There were various reasons why it was not concluded. The obvious reason was the fact that it was May or June before our review had been completed and we did not open discussions with the British in relation to this problem until that time.

I understood from the Taoiseach, in a reply to a Parliamentary Question, that there would be a review before these further tariff reductions would take place.

The two go together— the review first and then the matter of the tariff reductions.

We were hood-winked on this because the review took place and it is still going on.

It all depends on what one means by the word "review".

The review and the subsequent discussions made considerable progress and I was able to announce to the House in answer to a Parliamentary Question that intermediate steps had been taken prior to 1st July and I reported to the House that the discussions were going on. That is on record and there is no question of the review talks not having taken place. A certain amount of progress was made. Further progress needs to be made and further discussions need to be held before I may have to take specific decisions in the event of agreement not being reached.

Order No. 185 takes into consideration the further reduction of duties on items coming from the North of Ireland. As originally provided, the order took into account the further reductions in duties on goods coming from the North. There is a 10 per cent preferential rate on goods from the North as compared with goods from the United Kingdom. This differential was maintained under the order we are discussing and a similar order made this year maintained this preferential treatment for goods from the North of Ireland.

For all goods?

There are exceptions made in an effort to protect some of our industries down here.

Would the Minister like to make a statement about current discussions, or discussions that were to have taken place, between officials of his Department and their counterparts in the North? Prior to Mr. Faulkner being denounced by the Taoiseach, there was talk about co-operation between the two Departments but we have heard nothing further about the matter. I presume these talks are taking place and I should be glad if the Minister would let us know the present position.

In relation to any discussions in regard to the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement——

I am speaking about special discussions between the Department of Industry and Commerce and the corresponding Department in the North. Seemingly the Minister has not heard about them.

There was no indication that there were to be discussions concerning the reduction of tariffs under the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement.

There were to be discussions on trade and co-operation between the North and South.

The Deputy will be allowed to put a question when the Minister concludes. He may not interrogate the Minister in this fashion.

The Minister was answering my questions very courteously.

I was answering the points made by the Deputy in the course of his contribution when he spoke about concessions being given to imports from the North of Ireland. I was endeavouring to do this when I said that any discussions in connection with the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement are conducted with the British Government. There is a 10 per cent preferential given to imports from the Six Counties and this has been maintained in the order we are discussing.

May I ask the Minister a question about discussions between officials of his Department and their opposite numbers in the North? The Taoiseach announced earlier this year that such discussions would take place on matters of trade.

I have no recollection of the Taoiseach making a statement indicating that talks on trade were taking place between officers of my Department and people in the North.

The Minister knows nothing about it?

This does not arise on the Bill before the House.

It was most interesting to hear this statement from the Minister. I am sorry that I must ask him another question——

The Deputy may not pursue this line of argument. I would remind the Deputy this is not a court.

It is not a court and I have never said or implied that it was. On a point of order, as a Member of this House have I a right to ask for elaboration of a statement in the Minister's brief? It is stated there:

The Swiss watch industry had made representations about the high rate of duty on their products and it was decided to grant these reductions in duty.

The Minister stated that in deciding to grant this concession the Government took into consideration the considerable financial contribution which the Swiss watch industry had made. As a Member of this House I consider I have a right to raise this matter. If the Chair decides I have not such a right, the Chair should say so.

The Deputy has no right to interrupt the Minister. The procedure is that the Deputy having made a speech should listen to what the Minister has to say and the Chair will permit him to put his questions when the Minister concludes. The Deputy is indulging in a disorderly practice.

On a point of order, is it disorderly to ask a question on a point of order?

Does the Deputy not understand English? I have told him.

On a point of order, is it in order for a Deputy of this House to ask certain question in the course of his contribution when these questions arise from the Minister's speech?

The Deputy is twisting this.

I have asked questions in the course of my contribution.

It is a matter for the Minister to reply to them.

I am asking the Chair if I have the right to ask questions in the course of my contribution in this House?

That was not the question.

It was. I asked the question in the course of my contribution.

I think the Deputy should remain seated.

On a point of order, have I the right to ask questions in the course of my contribution?

The Deputy has no right to interrupt proceedings in this disorderly fashion.

On a point of order——

That does not make it orderly.

——have I not the right——

The Deputy is long enough here to know what he should do.

The Chair has refused to give me an answer.

I have given the Deputy an answer. Would he please remain seated and silent until the Minister has concluded?

The Chair should give me an answer.

I am sorry, a Cheann Comhairle, that this particular discussion should have developed at this stage because I was endeavouring to reply to the questions raised during the debate. I have been endeavouring to deal with Order No. 185 and the question on which Deputy O'Connell sought further information relates to Order No. 188 which I had not reached before being interrupted.

In relation to Deputy O'Connell's contribution I have said already that he had asked three questions. One was the question of the review with which I have endeavoured to deal. Another related to Northern Ireland and lest there might be any misunderstanding relating to the discussions between representatives of the Department of Commerce in the North with representatives of the Department of Commerce here——

Ministry of Commerce in the North. I am being precise.

I am grateful to the Deputy for correcting me. Early this year the Taoiseach indicated——

A different answer.

This is not a different answer. Every time I try to give an explanation I am interrupted.

The last interruption was not intended for the Minister.

The Taoiseach indicated that he would like to see discussions taking place with a view to introducing general overall social benefits and for having greater co-ordination between the various establishments here and in the Six Counties. In his contribution, Deputy O'Connell asked if there had been any discussions in relation to the lowering of protective tariffs against the Six Counties. In my reply I endeavoured to outline that there was preferential treatment for imports from the Six-County area and that this preferential treatment had been maintained in the order under discussion and in the order that was made this year. I went on to say that there were not any trade discussions between officials of my Department and officials of the Ministry of Commerce regarding any further reduction in this.

Deputy O'Connell asked some questions in relation to Order No. 188, a number of which I am in a position to reply to and some to which I am not in a position to reply. One question he asked concerned the number of people employed in the watch assembly industry here. My information is that there are about 50 people involved. These are employed by the Irish watch assemblers.

The reduction in respect of this order is not of any real significance. As I have indicated, the reduction is 10 per cent, that is, 10 per cent of 26.7 per cent which is a reduction of 2.6 per cent in duty. Therefore, it is not a considerable reduction but from the point of view of the Swiss industries, it is considerable. I was asked by the Swiss watch industry to make this order in view of their contributions to the Horological Institute in Ireland. That contribution is made direct to the institute and I do not know what is its size in financial terms. I presume that as well as being a financial contribution there is also a contribution by way of expertise. At the time of making the order the information available to me was that it was to be recommended that I should accommodate the Swiss watch industry in this way.

I thought the Minister would have sought the answer I am seeking before making his statement because the justification for such an order comes from the Minister finally and he should have asked what was the considerable contribution that the Swiss watch industry made to the institute.

There was a financial contribution as well as a contribution by way of expertise and know-how. I gather that it was a contribution that was well appreciated and this was the reason for my decision to reduce the duty by 10 per cent of 26.7 per cent.

Would the Minister be able to tell us what is our balance of trade with Switzerland?

I have not got the figure. That is as much as I can say in connection with this matter.

In his speech the Minister told us that because of our international obligations, the reduction of the duty had to be extended to watches of other countries. I should like to know what are these international obligations. I think I know already but I should like to have my suspicions confirmed by the Minister.

These obligations refer to GATT.

I thought so. Have we so much respect for GATT that we make special arrangements with Switzerland? Do we comply like mice with an absurd and ridiculous organisation such as GATT which, in the first place, we were not invited to join and which is not worth a thraneen to anybody? Is the Minister led by the nose by civil servants so that they make a special arrangement with a country and look at GATT to see if they have to extend it to other countries? Does the Minister think other countries do this for us?

There is a certain code of honour in any international arrangement that is made. I do not think that any responsible Parliament should be so——

Will the Minister explain what the Germans did?

Will the Deputy please allow the Minister to conclude? The Deputy has already made his speech.

The Minister is talking about a code of honour and I have the right to reply. Will he tell us whether the Germans broke the bilateral trade agreement on lambs?

(Interruptions.)
Question put and agreed to.

Could we have it now?

I think we should postpone it until next week.

I am in the hands of the House.

Is it all right if I ask a question?

As I have pointed out to the Deputy, it is in order to ask the Minister a question when he concludes.

Usually when they conclude they vanish and we do not get an opportunity to ask a question. Will the Minister provide us with information on the Swiss watch industry, the total imports from Switzerland and from other countries in the past few years? Otherwise I will put down a Parliamentary Question. I also want to know their financial contribution to the Swiss/Irish Horological Institute. Can he give us details of the special tariff concessions in favour of certain goods of Northern Ireland origin? What are these tariff concessions and in respect of what goods? Could I get an answer about the discussions which the Taoiseach said would take place between officers of the Department of Industry and Commerce and the Ministry of Commerce in Northern Ireland?

I have already answered that question.

I do not think the Minister has. If he checks the records of this House he will find that his second reply was completely different from his first.

We cannot have a further discussion now. The Second Stage has been agreed to. We can have a further discussion on Committee Stage.

On a point of order, I asked you if I could ask the Minister a question and you said I could ask a question when the Minister had concluded.

The Minister has concluded. I put the question to the House and the House agreed that the bill should be read a Second Time. We can have no further discussion until the next Stage of the Bill.

You are very testy tonight.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 23rd November, 1971.
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