Vol. 257 No. 3
asked the Minister for Social Welfare the estimated cost in 1969-70 of replacing the present retirement pensions and non-contributory old age pensions in the Republic by a scheme including graduated retirement benefit with the same benefit and eligibility as in Northern Ireland.
14.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare how many widows in the Republic would have been entitled in 1969-70 to a retirement rather than a widows' benefit or pension if a scheme for retirement benefits and widows' benefits had existed here with the same eligibility as in the equivalent schemes in Northern Ireland.
15.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare what the cost would have been in 1969-70 of a scheme of widows' benefits and guardians' allowances with the same rate of benefit including widows' supplementary allowances and eligibility as in Northern Ireland.
16.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare what the cost would have been of unemployment benefit and assistance respectively in 1969-70 had Northern Ireland standards of benefit and eligibility applied here.
17.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare how many persons would have been entitled to unemployment benefit and disability benefit in the Republic in 1969-70 if the same eligibility requirements for these schemes had applied as in Northern Ireland.
18.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare what the cost of disability benefit would have been in 1969-70 had the same requirements as to eligibility and benefit applied as applied to sickness benefit in Northern Ireland.
19.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare what the cost would have been in 1969-70 had Northern Ireland rates of benefit and terms of eligibility been applied to a maternity benefit scheme in the Republic; and how that figure compares with the amount actually spent in maternity allowances in the Republic in that year.
20.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare what the cost would have been in 1969-70 had the same benefits and terms of eligibility applied to the occupational injuries schemes as applied to the Northern Ireland industrial injuries benefit.
21.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare the cost of grants to persons in need in Northern Ireland in 1969-70 and what the cost of such a scheme would have been in the Republic in that year had the same amount been spent per head of population under this scheme as was spent in Northern Ireland.
22.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare what the cost would have been in 1969-70 of a scheme of family allowances in the Republic similar in amount payable and eligibility to that in Northern Ireland.
I propose, with your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, to take Questions Nos. 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 and 22 together. I would not feel justified in asking the staff of my Department to undertake the very substantial work which would be involved in preparing estimates of hypothetical costs on the lines requested by the Deputy, even if the exercise were feasible and likely to serve a useful purpose.
I deplore the Minister's reply, a very unhelpful and unconstructive reply on a matter of major national interest. Appreciating that this may well require some considerable work being done in the Department, which I would have hoped would have been done continuously during the past 50 years, would the Minister now commission the Economic and Social Research Institute to undertake research into this? Such research would not take more than three or four months. A colleague of mine in the trade union movement can do this quite rapidly and did it in 1970. The Minister must accept that there is a great deal of national interest in the relativity——
The Deputy is making a statement.
I do not like any research being done in this unless it comes up with reasonably accurate returns and we have been rather dilatory about getting any figures because of this. The Deputy knows well that the basis of calculation is different. In the North there is a contributory scheme to which every person between school-leaving and retirement contributes to social insurance. They have different qualification requirements, different rates of pay and to make a meaningful assessment on a per capita basis is entirely wrong. I gave Deputy FitzGerald the global figure of the cost in both areas and he then proceeded to assess it on a per capita basis and to work that out as a meaningful comparison which, of course, it is not. I must admit that I was rather proud to listen to Deputy Ryan giving an interview on the radio on Sunday last. Deputy Ryan did not seek to denigrate our services here but he upheld what I consider would be the duty of any responsible Member of this House. Rather than make an adverse comparison for public consumption, he gave a very fair assessment of the position vis-à-vis unemployment insurance and assistance in both areas.
The question that arises is that as between the Minister's Estimate of the £50 million gap between us and the North——
We cannot have a debate on the question.
With due respect, as we are dealing with ten or 12 Questions together, a second supplementary might be appropriate.
The Chair is allowing supplementary questions but not a discussion.
May I ask the Minister if, in view of the fact that his estimate is in the region of £50 million and that Deputy FitzGerald who is most conservative has been talking in terms of £87 million and further, that a figure of £110 million has been produced as an amount that would bring about parity of benefits north and south, he would agree that it is legitimate that Members of this House would ask him to commission social scientists and statisticians to estimate a figure from the wealth of data available from the social security offices, north and south and which is available in Britain also? With a proper weighting of the data a very objective, independent and academic figure could be produced which would be most helpful in terms of our relationship with Northern Ireland and in terms of objective argument in this country about the social services in both areas.
That is if Partition means anything but, of course, it does not.
Of course, it means something but I do not think this is doing much for it.
Would the Minister accept that his refusal to answer these questions is because they go so near the bone and that had he answered them beyond the incorrect statement he made in this House about the cost being £50 million it would have been disproved and that it is only when we ask questions, the answers to which would disprove that figure, that the Minister suddenly refuses to answer, having answered other questions last week and the previous week which brought us some distance towards that result?
In every case I have given the Deputy a reply that was as near as possible to the questions he asked but he is pushing us too far in this exercise.
I agree that I am pushing the Minister to the point where the answers he would give me, if he did give them, would disprove his £50 million figure.
That is not right.
Then, would the Minister give us the answers and indicate thereby that he is not afraid?
I have given the answers a thousand times over. If we introduce a social insurance scheme for all from school leaving age to retirement age, I do not think the gap will be so significant.
If the Minister would answer the questions, we would know what the gap would be.
No matter what figure I give the Deputy he will, for his own purposes, draw his own conclusions——
That is not right.
Without having realistic comparisons it is not possible to compare like with like. What I am concerned with are the actual services provided in the North and in comparing these with ours and I am concerned with improving our services each year. I am not concerned with a global figure that is not realistic.
The Minister gave us a global figure.
I gave the total expenditure on social insurance and social assistance in the two areas and the Deputy is free to use that information in any way he wishes. He may work it out on a per capita basis if he so wishes but that is not a correct basis.
If that basis is not correct, can the Minister give me the answers to my questions to enable me to work it out in a manner which he describes as correct?
I have given all the statistical information that is available in my Department and which it is my duty to give the House.
Could the Minister tell us how he arrived at the figure of £50 million without having the necessary information available in his Department?
As I told the Deputy before, I gave it to him as an estimate of mine.
The Minister is saying now that he had no information on which to base the estimate.
I had just as much information as if I had gone into every figure given to me by the Deputy.
But the Minister has no information on which to base the figure?
I had enough information.
In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I propose, with the permission of the Chair, to raise the matter on the Adjournment.
The Chair will communicate with the Deputy.
23.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare in respect of the year 1969-70 the number of people in Northern Ireland in receipt of retirement pensions; the number of people in the Republic in receipt of retirement pensions; the number of people in the Republic in receipt of noncontributory old age pensions; and the estimated number of people in the Republic who would be eligible for non-contributory old age pensions if the qualifying age were to be reduced to 65.
The information sought by the Deputy in the first part of his question is not available in my Department.
Regarding the second part, retirement pensions were not payable in the Republic in the year 1969-70. The number of people in receipt of noncontributory old age pensions at 31st March, 1970, was 112,921.
As regards the third part of the question, the figure should be in the region of 165,000.
24.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare the number of persons in Northern Ireland in receipt of unemployment benefit and unemployment assistance grants in 1969-70; the number of persons entitled to unemployment benefit and unemployment assistance respectively in the Republic in the same year; and the estimated numbers who would have been entitled to unemployment benefit and assistance in the Republic in that year had the same eligibility requirements applied to these schemes as in Northern Ireland.
The information sought by the Deputy in the first part of his question is not available in my Department. As regards the second part, recipients of unemployment benefit here during 1969-70 averaged 31,248 weekly and recipients of unemployment assistance averaged 33,348 weekly. The latter figure includes an average of 14,265 smallholders.
As regards the third part of the question, I refer the Deputy to my reply to Questions Nos. 13 to 22.
May I ask the Minister what he means by referring me to a reply which he did not give? What is the point in referring me to that non-answer?
It is the same type of reply.
Can the Minister say why he is not prepared to state how many people would have been eligible if the same eligibility requirements had applied as those applying in Northern Ireland?
I would not be satisfied that the basis on which we could proceed would be accurate and, moreover, in answering to this House, I am not responsible for what they are doing in any other State.
One would swear that the Minister never heard of Northern Ireland.
He says he is not responsible for what is happening in any other State. It is not Ghana but Northern Ireland about which we are talking.
Is any Minister here responsible for what happened in another State? Grow up and stop twisting answers.
Ministers have a responsibility to answer questions addressed to them.
25.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare the number of widows and guardians in receipt of the widows' benefits and guardians' allowances in Northern Ireland in 1969-70 and the number of widows in the Republic in receipt of widows' contributory pension and widows' noncontributory pension respectively.
The information requested in the first part of the Deputy's question is not available in my Department. As to the second part, the average numbers of widows in receipt of contributory and non-contributory pensions respectively in 1969-70 were 49,710 and 18,670.
May I ask the Minister whether his Department are not in receipt of statistics from Northern Ireland that are published there in respect of social welfare provisions and the number of recipients and beneficiaries? Could he not get these figures?
We could, but they are available as easily to the Deputy as they are to us.
Are they available in the Minister's Department—yes or no?
Booklets are available to us that are available also to the Deputy.
Are statistics available in the Department in relation to these figures and if they are not available, why not?
That is a separate question.
I need not answer that.
26.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare the number of people in Northern Ireland and the Republic entitled to sickness benefit or disability benefit in 1969-70.
The information sought by the Deputy in his question in relation to Northern Ireland is not available in my Department. At 31st March, 1970, the total number of persons insured under the Social Welfare Acts for disability benefit was 737,404. It is not possible to say how many of these would, at any particular time, have satisfied the contribution conditions for disability benefit but in the financial year 1969-70, 189,992 persons were paid that benefit.
Is anything available in the Minister's Department?
27.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare the number of families receiving family allowances in Northern Ireland in 1969-70 distinguishing families with two, three, four and five or more children; and the number of families in receipt of children's allowances in the Republic in the same year, distinguishing families with one, two, three, four and five or more children.
The information requested in the first part of the Deputy's question is not available in my Department. As the reply to the second part is in the form of a tabular statement, I propose, with your permission a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, to circulate it with the Official Report.
Following is the statement:
|
Families |
Number |
|
1 child |
88,507 |
|
2 children |
80,051 |
|
3 children |
61,811 |
|
4 children |
44,363 |
|
5 children or more |
59,550 |
Is the Minister telling me that he does not receive the six-monthly Digest of Statistics from Northern Ireland?
That is a separate question.
The Minister made a statement in this House, the truth of which I am challenging. He has said that information is not available in his Department——
That is not the function of the Chair. The Chair's function is to distinguish between questions and other material.
This is a valid supplementary question. The Minister made a statement, the truth of which is dubious, and I am challenging that statement.
The Deputy is now making a statement.
The answer to this question is available in the Digest of Statistics. Will the Minister tell me whether he has or has not got the figures in his Department?
There is no statutory obligation on us to have any particular figures.
Is the Minister telling me he has not got them?
It is as easy for the Deputy to get them as it is for me.
Question No. 28.
And the Minister will not be bothered to get them?
No.
No interest in Northern Ireland whatever.
